INVAR

vaderios said:

INVAR said:

Shadows of the Empire reveals that Palpy loved to make his servants squirm and fester against one another.  That Vader sought to overthrow Palp is a driving force behind what we always felt Vader was up to, especially given the dialogue in the Core on Bespin.

That doesnt count. Is EU crap.

 

We all know that ady will not do any changes to the dialogue.

So dont bother to explain any further ideas from flaws that came from PT or EU.

 

-Angel

Fine.  It makes no difference if you discard SOTE as an example to make my point.  Empire reveals Vader desired Luke to achieve his destiny in destroying the Emperor, upon which Vader says that he and Luke can rule the galaxy as father and son.   So case made regardless of the EU.  The fact the Jedi duel reveals Palp getting off on the conflict between father and son makes the same point SOTE made; Vader had plenty of reasons to keep his knowledge and plans with Luke secret from the Emperor.

That Emp tells Vader they have a new enemy is already known to Vader per the opening crawl in Empire.  That Skywalker was that enemy is no surprise to Vader who had to know Emp would soon sense Luke's power and tremors in the Force.

I have always thought, since seeing Empire on opening day in 1980 - that Vader knew before Emp who Luke was, and what their relationship was.  The only question back then was whether or not Vader was lying to Luke.

The idea that Emp reveals to Vader that Luke is Skywalker's offspring is insulting to our intelligence and contrary to the actual storyline already underway.  It also seriously diminishes the impact of Vader's reveal to Luke in the Bespin core.

As to whether or not Ady will change the dialogue - I would imagine considering his meticulous and thusfar perfect additions and tweaks to both ANH-R and what I've seen of ESB:R - I'm not worried about his decision about what dialogue to include in the hologram conference on the Executor.

As I said, the only addition I see worthwhile from the 2006 DVD is the line "The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star" and then Luke's name. 

hgfed said:

There is over 800 pages here, so I don't know if someone has mentioned this.  I kind of liked the new scene in the special edition where Sidious tells Vader that Luke is his son, but earlier Vader says something like "Skywalker must be with them" referring to the base on Hoth which is in contradiction to the later added dialogue because he wasn't supposed to know that Luke was his son yet.  Maybe that's something to correct in your edit.

Another thing is that the added dialogue (when Sidious tells Vader about Luke) goes against the opening crawl that says Vader is scouring the galaxy looking for Skywalker, which means he knew Skywalker was his son.

I'd change the opening crawl and change Vaders line from "Skywalker is there, i can feel it" to "the rebels are there" or just remove it.

The opening Crawl of Empire says that Vader is obsessed with finding young Skywalker.  It says nothing of the Emperor.

I always understood the fact that it was Vader who became obsessed with finding Skywalker.  This is notably due the line in ANH during the Battle of Yavin when Vader says "The Force is strong with this one" when he's trying to shoot Luke down as Ben is talking with Skywalker.  That fact alone would have driven Vader crazy if in fact all the Jedi were extinct by that time and Vader was "all that is left of their religion" according to Tarkin.

It follows that Vader would become obsessed with finding Skywalker. One: - because Vader failed to destroy him and thus the Death Star was kaboomed in what may have been a monumental failure heaped upon Vader by Emp (see the Robot Chicken episode for proof of this), and two - because Vader sensed a tremor in the Force from Luke.

We can natually assume that Vader learned who the pilot was that fired the torpedo that destroyed the space station.  Vader probably recalled glimpsing or sensing Luke in the hangar bay right after he killed Obi-Wan and easily figured out that Luke accompanied Obi-Wan from Mos Eisley to the Death Star.  That would account for Vader's obsession including sending the Imperial fleet to drive the Rebels from their hidden base.  Whether by memory, deduction or mental odor from the Force, Vader had figured out who Luke actually was and became obsessed with finding him as the opening crawl attests.

Shadows of the Empire reveals that Palpy loved to make his servants squirm and fester against one another.  That Vader sought to overthrow Palp is a driving force behind what we always felt Vader was up to, especially given the dialogue in the Core on Bespin.

I've always assumed Vader knew who Luke was from before the beginning of Empire.  Palp, not so much. By the time Palp figured it out and gave Vader a ring on the Executor about his foresight of Luke destroying them - Vader plays along letting Emp think he's ahead of Vader on the subject of Luke and hands Emp the alternative possibility of turning Luke to the Dark Side that Vader had been contemplating all along.  What Vader hoped to keep hidden from Palp was his own ambition to use Luke to overthrow Emp.

If anything the latest DVD dialogue from Empire about "the offspring of Anakin" destroys that symbiotic storyflow and totally kicks the premise of the movie off kilter from the Crawl.

The only additions of dialogue I would keep from the 2006 Release would be this:

Vader: What is thy bidding my master?

Emp: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

Vader: I have felt it.

Emp: We have a new enemy.  The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star, Luke Skywalker.

Vader: Yes my master.

Emp:  He could destroy us.

Vader:  He is just a boy.  Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

Emp: The Force is strong with him.  The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

Vader: If he could be turned, he could be a powerful ally.

Emp: Yes.  Yes.  He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

Vader: He will join us or die, master.

That would be all I would do with that scene if it were me beyond getting the Jedi Emp in the hologram to be in better continuity with the OT.

I've finally had a chance to see all the snippets online of ESB:R - and I'm blown away with the eye Adywan has for making the OT a truly 'Special Edition' that goes beyond what our own expectations are.

Curiosity is killing me, and perhaps it is buried somewhere in the 800-something pages of this thread - but I'd love to know what Ady is envisioning in the tweakage of the Wampa scenes he is going to actually film.

I'm trying to envision in my own eyes a better composition of both the original "moving carpet" in the Wampa cave and the completely unclimactic Wampa in the S.E.

Are you seeking to replace the Wampa in it's entirety (from the Tippet puppet in the opening scene) in every instance it appears in both versions of the film?  Will you treat us to a more lethal Wampa arm taking down Luke's Tauntaun?  And I assume we are not going to have a one-armed snow beast growling like the man in the suit.

I guess I'm trying to draw Adywan storyboards in my mind for those scenes because as excited as you have made me for what I have already seen of uploaded clips, I'm nearly beside myself in wondering what incredible things you plan to do for the Wampa.

If it's already been discussed in here and I mised it, I apologize.  Re-reading 800 pages is a bit more daunting that having to read War and Peace.

adywan said:

New pic time.

There's still a lot more to do with this shot yet but here's how it's coming along (right click>view image to see it a little larger)

Goosebumps!!!!

Did anyone ever imagine that a FAN EDIT could rekindle the excitement we felt when we first got a minor glimpse of the SE's??

Good things come to those who wait.... But I'm freaking losing my patience!

Waay awesome.

Lucas needs to take notes.

Way awesome!

I saw Empire 96 times at one of the last Cinemescope theaters in the Chicago area back in 1980 and again during it's re-release in 81.

The one outstanding thing I remember well was that during that Hoth battle, you could feel the concussion of bass when the chin guns fired and any explosion on screen would go right through the bones.

ANH-R achieves that well during the battle of Yavin, it will be great to hear that dynamic again with the ESB-R.

One more reason to be impatient and giddy at the same time!

I haven't looked forward to a Star Wars release since Sith, and that good ol' feeling is back again!

Lord I love Star Wars.

ChainsawAsh said:

In fact, I'm pretty sure he's not working on the sound mix until after the video's done, so he's got some time before he has to worry about this!

 

Awesome!

Then can I make an official request of Adywan to check the sound mix of the Walker weaponry and if possible add some major bass *whumps* to the AT-AT chin guns and at least restore what was in the sound mix before they remixed it out of the DVDs?

I know sound is also a major pain to edit, and adding another layer effect is tedious, but it never hurts to ask.

I always saw the chin guns as mounted howitzers and if you ever heard how heavy the blast is when one of those is fired, you'd understand my thinking.

But, I remember how loud the chin guns were in the theater in 1980.  It would be awesome to hear that again on the 5.1 surround.

adywan said:

BmB said:

adywan said:

 

I don't just add these things because they might look cool you know. Everything i do is carefully planned out. And things i have added that later on i don't think works, no matter how much time i may have worked on a shot or how good i think it may look, it will get removed. For instance adding the TIE's firing at the falcon firing the Asteroid scene. I really liked it and so did a lot of other people but it just didn't work as there was too much going on in that scene  with them added. Without them it showed just how dangerous the flight through the asteroid field was as the TIE pilots couldn't concentrate on both avoiding smashing into the asteroids and targeting and firing at the falcon at the same time. So that didn't work and it was omitted. But this isn't one of those scenes. And it isn't an animated explosion either as i would never use a CG animated explosion, only real ones as were used in the original versions?

See?  This is why the Saga is in good hands and we should trust Adywan with the edits.

I saw that footage of the firing TIE's in the Asteroid field, and while it was cool - it was a bit much, and slightly distracting exactly as Adywan decided on further review.

We are getting what the Special Editions really should have been: an ENHANCEMENT of what we already know and love, polished to perfection.

One note of thought regarding ESB - and Adywan may have already finished the Hoth battle sequence - but I will note that the sound edit for the Hoth battle in the SE sucks IMO.

My hang-up is with the sound of the chin guns on the AT-AT.  In the original VHS release, those chin gun blasts had a concordant amount of bass *whump* *whump* when firing.  The DVD releases (especially the SE) that bass is almost non-existent, even in the shot with the Scout walker with the foreground overhang of the chin guns blasting.

I don't know if you dealt with the sound issues in the Hoth battle yet Ady - but those are my thoughts nonetheless.  Some mega *whump-whump* on them chin guns would be appreciated, if you haven't done it already.

ChainsawAsh said:

 

Please remember that this is NOT an Adywan-exclusive thread.  This thread is for ideas for ANYONE who has plans to edit Jedi.

 

 

My bad.  I did not realize that.

ON scanning this incredibly lengthy thread - there's some intriguing ideas and also out-of-sight ideas and other concepts that truly take what Adywan has accomplished with ANH-R and ESB-R and takes it into an edit bash that would sorely hurt what he has done already.

We love the OT, even if Jedi is the weakest - but I'm certainly not liking ideas that change the storyline, pacing and major changes that alter the actual plot.

• The idea of TWO Death Stars is so far removed from what exists, it changes the entire strategy of the Rebel assault, and saddles Adywan with nearly remaking Jedi.

• Moving the encounter with Ben on Dagobah to Tatooine is also totally out of chronology and would lessen the emotional impact of Leia being 'the other'.

If anything, the deleted extended conversation with luke would be interesting to see - but changing location and timing would harm the storyline.

• Fett's demise.

I don't like the idea of Fett being excised from the film.  The fact Fett is at Jabba's Palace, always relayed to me that the Hutts were expecting a rescue attempt.  Fett had to learn who Leia was and why Vader was so interested in "Skywalker" as I'm sure he wondered what profit angle there could be in nabbing him.  I'm also sure Fett would have learned they escaped from Bespin, and he would logically expect some attempted rescue, even as he delivered Han to Jabba.

Jedi showcases the fact that Jabba was indeed expecting a rescue attempt. Jabba knew Boushh was a ruse - as they were waiting behind curtains.   Having Fett there would have been insurance for Jabba's safety.

As to Fett's demise - in the style of ANH-R, all that is needed is some minor model reshooting and efx.

Fett's landing on the skiff was an iconic moment in Jedi.  The sound of the jetpack alone was way cool.  The look in Luke's face, priceless.  I think the scene should exist as it is up until Luke cuts the bolo rope.

It's at this point an addition could take place, and that would be a shot of Luke from the back, with saber down to his left as the rope he just cut falls from his body - and in a quick upper slash to his top right, have Luke nail Fett in the helmet - at the same time the bolt from the barge hits the skiff.  Have helmet sail off and Fett's body fall over the side away from Luke.  Adywan could then pick up the shot where the body of Fett lands in the sand and rolls into the Sarlaac (you do not see the helmet at all in the existing shot - just the rolling armor and body).

Cut back to Luke reacting to blaster fire from the other skiff and continue the scene with Luke jumping from his skiff. There is enough ambiguity there for the speculation as to whether or not Luke beheaded him like Jango, or simply cut his helmet off.  

Fett's demise in this manner would be quicker, and more brutal on the level of Mace Windu's dispatching of Jango WITHOUT raising it to the level of silliness - and would also be a nice tie in for Boba to suffer a similar fate as his old man.  It also raises Luke's skills to be near those of Mace's in terms of dispatching non-Jedi.

Most of all, this is probably the easier path for Adywan to take outside of deleting Fett from the story completely, which I think would be a bummer since Jedi should tie everything up - all of it's villains dispatched.

Plus it would be in keeping with the original storyline.

JMHO

BmB said:

That would be the transport escape scene, I always look forward to it and I always get a thrill from it, it's one of the few small victories for the rebels in the movie, and as such is so much more enjoyable. Apart from looking incredibly fake in the trailer, having one x-wing shot down like that complete destroys that moment of victory.

It's probably going to be one of the few, if not the only change in the edit that might keep it from replacing GOUT for me.

I guess I don't comprehend how you could come to that opinion.

Adywan's addition in this incredible sequence adds the weight of peril and gravitas that was only merely hinted at in the original.  It showcases the desperation the rebels faced in that cell being able to escape an Imperial blockade, and how impossible it would have been without the Ion cannon.

Plus, Adywan's addition gives Reikkan's concern later on in the battle, much more weight when he says "I don't think we can protect two transports at a time".  The fact we see one escort obliterated by Imperial fire in Adywan's edit explains the risk the rebels faced by trying to send two transports at once to escape.

Also, logically, after the commander says "Good, our first catch of the day" - why is the Destroyer NOT firing at the escaping transport and escorts?  Adywan fixes that logical omission.

That an X-wing pilot is lost in that opening salvo of the Battle of Hoth is PERFECT.  The victory is in ESCAPING the Empire, the sacrifices adding to it's cost, and importance.

ChainsawAsh said:

Here's how I see the whole Executor dive-bombing the Death Star thing would have to work.  I think this could all be done using available footage, and a HELL of a lot of new effects footage.  (It does, however, significantly affect the story of the space battle, but doesn't affect the Luke/Vader/Emperor or Endor sections at all - though I'd love for the Endor section to be significantly changed, as well.)

First, it needs to be made clear that the Rebels really don't have a plan for how to destroy the new Death Star.  They just know that they need to before it's finished, or they're well and truly fucked.  (Demonstrated from the opening shot, which is now of the Executor being completely fucking dwarfed by the DSII, just before Vader's shuttle leaves to enter the Death Star and give Jerjerrod his pep talk.)

Basically, the bit of a plan they have is that they disable the shield on Endor, then pummel the fuck out of it and hope that they can find a way to blow it up.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on it being a trap, and are taken by surprise when the turbolaser starts destroying their fleet.  Now they're completely desperate, and move the fleet as close to the Death Star as possible, to try to avoid the turbolaser.  The Star Destroyers - including the Executor - follow.  The Rebel ships (I mean the big ones, the fighters are busy trying to fend off the TIE fighters) are using their laser batteries to try and hit the Death Star on one side and the Star Destroyers on the other (think Battlestar Galactica-style gun batteries, but with lasers, or like the opening of ROTS for a Star Wars example).  Nothing is making a dent in the Death Star, and the Rebels are down to their last few ships, which are dropping like flies.

Lando has the idea to drive a ship into the Death Star to punch a hole open, and since the Executor is closest (and biggest), he heads for that.  Instead of the A-Wing blowing up the bridge, the Falcon does it (not by crashing).  Or it could disable the shields, then other fighters take it out.  Or something.

So, the Executor tumbles into the Death Star, since it wasn't outright blown up like the rest of the big ships.  Instead of it causing a huge fireball with no damage, it crumbles into the structure,causing a large section to cave in.  Lando uses this to punch through to the core.

Now, what I'd like to see here is Lando trying to destroy the core, failing, then deciding to sacrifice himself (and the Falcon) by diving into the core to destroy the station, but I don't think there's enough footage to sell this sacrifice properly, so I guess that one's out of the question.

I dunno, what do you guys think, could this legitimately be done?  I feel it'd help improve latter part of the film significantly.  As it stands, I just don't care about the space battle, as I never really feel that the rebels are in that much danger or that they're taking any real losses.

That is an interesting idea.  However such a revision is really outside of the scope of what Adywan has achieved with ANH-R and soon with ESB-R.

The Adywan edits do not change the storyline - or even the pacing of the originals.  If anything Adywan's Edits are what the SE's SHOULD have been, but weren't.

The enhancements to Jedi ought to be to either dress-up what effects work was not possible in 1982-83, fix continuity and other issues in conjunction with the rest of the saga and add elements that complete and flesh out sequences that require some logical flow and/or were part of the original novels, drafts or screenplays.  Adywan has already shown the way, and I hope he continues with that vision.

With that in mind, one sequence that does truly open itself up for enhancement and completion IS the Executor battle sequence and destruction.

As others have already hinted, right after Akbar instructs the fleet to "Concentrate all firepower on that Super StarDestroyer" - it would be interesting to see a new sequence that revolves around the Executor's destruction.  

A dream 'wish' would be to see Home One and other Rebel Capital ships taking up positions to volley battery fire with the Executor.  Of course, at that point it would be good to see several Rebel ships; Nebulon B's and some other medium sized ships getting destroyed rather easily by Vader's flagship.

Of course, that's the diversion as a squadron of B-wings rotate and zoom on down to blast the conning towers with ion cannon blasts followed by Green Leader and his wingman in A-wings who blow apart the Bridge shield generator.

The interior of the Executor bridge would continue as filmed with Piett commanding the crew to "Increase the forward batteries, I don't want anything to get through".

New shot of Executor batteries tracking and blasting a few B-wings while incoming cannonade fire from a rebel capital ship again provides support. (This shot could replace the bad X-wing superstructure shot).

The two A-wings could then be seen zipping in close to superstructure, curving in tight to distract the gunners from the B-wings.  As they curve around to target the bridge, Green Leader's wingman is destroyed - and Green Leader is hit, causing his fighter to spin wildly.

Continue with the existing bridge sequence of Piett  "Intensify forward firepower!" and Green leader screaming (with smoke and sparks in the cockpit needed) and "Too Late!".

Then the big efx work is needed.

Enhancement of A-wing through bridge and explosion.

The shots of Ackbar on Home One with the Executor diving are good as they are.

But the following sequence needs efx work - and that would be the long shot of the Executor dive towards the surface, followed by a close up of the bow slamming into the surface and careening THROUGH the DSII exterior.  I do not know if a ripple shudder emanating from the impact crater can be realized through the DSII surface at the same angle.

Camera track the continuous cascade of the Executor crushing into the surface and panning up as interior explosions rip up through the Executor's interior.  A pyrotechnic's nirvana if skilled demolition artists wanted to play with sections of the Executor blasting loose and away falling towards the surface.

Then a similar long shot of the SSD as the interior explosions reach up to the engines - and then - NOVA.  A titanic flash - ala space nuke, perhaps giant sections raining down on DS II surface.

Then max long shot of DSII in eclipse behind Endor, space battle in tiny specks to one side and a bright flare on the edge surface of DSII marking the demise of the Executor.

Sounds simple - but I know it's not.

The plus side of this is, like the Dogfight in ANH-R, it can be achieved mostly by CGI model shots.  Plus it doesn't distract from original story flow, it just adds and perhaps makes the battle in Jedi, more incredible than the opening battle in ROTS.

Because that's always going to bother me.

With all the incredibly hard work Adywan has accomplished with both ANH-R and the completed scenes of ESB-R I've seen on Youtube - I have to say, some praise is in order, providing a little respite from all the demands.

I think Adywan has hit the right tenor and course for his edits on our favorite films of all time.  He did not change them to the point of affecting pacing, story or imact.  He has hit the perfect balance of correction and enhancement.

Not only do these edits look even better than when I remember seeing them in '77 and '80, all the little 'additions' and EFX of Adywan's Edits are the surprise "Ooooh's" and "ahhhhhhs" that were sadly lacking from the SE's, the exception being the digital dogfight fixes in ANH-SE.  Adywan's edit completely trumps Lucas' SE's because as the love and attention is clearly evident in the work Adywan presented.

The clip of the Ion Cannon segment from his Empire Edit had me exclaim out loud 'That was awesome!'.  A true surprise that completely took my expectation up and beyond what I was expecting from this edit considering out of all the films in the Saga, Empire is the one I thought needed the least amount of tinkering.  The truly wonderful thing is that nothing is taken away from the pacing or overwhelming the original with stuff that so extra-curricular that it diminishes our childhood memories.

Watching the ANH-R with those who are only cursory Star Wars fans, they had no knowledge of what was actually changed and enhanced from when they saw the original and SE film - and that I believe is the hallmark of the painstaking perfection achieved with Adywan's edits.

So it's no stretch to say that I trust what Adywan is doing with his edits.  He is making the saga we love reach the perfection that we all imagined in our mind's eye.

Empire is in great hands.

Jedi - well, that we know is going to be much more involved with tweaking.  If I was to pester - my own fondest wish is for a more spectacular and better ending for the Executor, but given what Adywan has treated us all to already - I'm confident our beloved saga is in excellent hands.

Not too much, not too little - just right.

Well, I just discovered the Adywan edit and I must say that it is near-perfect!

The ONLY thing that would have put his edit over the top for me, would have been if during Vader's first entrance - that for sake of continuity - Adywan had added the music cue from Empire when Vader enters the Bespin torture chamber to view Han's torture.

I temped the track to ANH and it works and fits perfectly - even to the point that the French Horns in the cue that follows Vader and his TKs past camera frame almost sound like Williams scored that scene this way.