G&G-Fan

ildiem said:

… Wait what’s the third?

There’s technically 3 “official canons”.

G-Canon, or Lucas Canon, is exclusively Episodes 1-6 and Clone Wars Seasons 1-6
The old Expanded Universe
And Disney Canon

G-Canon and the old EU are often conflated, but the fact is Lucas hardly paid attention and cared about the EU, and it contradicts Lucas’ intent numerous times.
https://www.tumblr.com/david-talks-sw/704700336111304704/george-lucas-involvement-in-the-expanded-universe?source=share

Which canon is the best is up to you. Though at this point, everybody basically has their own headcanon, a mishmash of the stuff they like, including me 😃

Anakin Starkiller said:

As far as I can tell this is basically how it is in all three official continuities, with occasional exceptions like Dooku. Honestly, if you want him to look monstrous, giving him yellow Sith eyes would be a good start.

…yes… that was the point I was making… Dooku is an exception. There shouldn’t be exceptions. You don’t get to mess with the dark side without consequences.
And the Prequels made it so Palpatine’s face is because of the lightning. It should be dark side corruption.
Not only does Vader’s suit look monstrous, a result of his immolation, a cosmic consequence, but under the mask he’s pale and scarred because of the dark side. He’s canonically supposed to be 46 but looks far worse, a testament to how much the dark side corrupted him.
In my interpretation, Zabrak’s are naturally brown (like Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar), and Maul looks like that because of the dark side.

That just leaves Dooku, and I’ve already posted what I plan on doing with Dooku.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Giving each Sith their own unique power is an interesting train of thought.

I want to add more supernatural dark side powers other then Force lightning. Everyone always talks about “the power of the dark side”, and while I understand they’re referring to it’s raw power, I think giving the Sith more “superpowers” makes it more alluring.

However, the idea is that the powers extract a toll, both on the soul and body. Which is why in my version, all of the Sith, not just Maul and Vader, look like monsters. Sidious’ face is not due to lightning being reflected on him but the dark side, and Dooku’s true form looks like a vampire. It’s the classic mythic trope of physical corruption due to dark magic.

TheDimitrios said:

Your best shot would probably be to deepfake Tarkin onto another character in the background.

But as is, for me the cameo in RotS is enough. And he also shows up in Clone Wars, so no urgent need imo.

It’s not critical for me either, I just thought it’d be cool.

Another thing. I’ve talked before in another thread about my desire to give each Sith their own unique ability. The force lightning is Palpatine’s; a classic warlock power. Dooku is vampiric, temporarily drawing on one’s life force like a parasite. Vader is his iconic force choke (tho I might consider adding another, more “cosmic” power as well, but one that reflects his more blunt personality). What about Maul?

It took me awhile but I thought of it, and it also closes a plot issue.
Maul is like a hunter, animalistic. What if his power is a heightened clairvoyance, sort of like a carnivore’s sense of smell? It closes the plot hole of how the Sith got a trace of the Queen’s ship if Obi-Wan prevented them from making any contact.
It’d require removal of “If the trace is correct”, as well as some sort of visual indicating that he uses the Force to discover the location.
I can’t momentarily think of how this power could create any new plot holes. I’d need to mull it over a bit more.

Servii said:

RotJ is the movie that really elevated Luke from a good character to a great one. It’s why I don’t abide people claiming that Luke is generic or uninteresting. Luke is great because he doesn’t fit the stereotypical image of the knight or warrior. He’s reserved and soft spoken, and conquers the villain through compassion, not force. He is what a knight would be in an ideal world.

Absolutely. His scenes with Vader perfectly highlight the contrast between an ideal masculine knight and a toxically-masculine one.

Luke is calm with a firm, compassionate heart. He is secure, giving in his care for others, despite the loss he’s experienced in his life. We see this in his mission to save Han. He pauses his own training for his friend. He trusts his friends with the mission on Endor and is prepared to die on DSII. The love he has for his friends is enough.
Vader is cold with a ruthless furnace heart. He is possessive and, ultimately, insecure. As such, he uses power to compensate. His wrath extends to his own men and he even attempts to turn his children into servants for his own selfish conquests.

Luke is defensive (except when he indulges into the dark side, as he still has his own internal conflict), Vader is aggressive.
Still, Luke is prone to the same rage his father is, and going cold as a defense mechanism from pain. This is one of the ways Vader being Luke’s father retroactively makes ANH better. Luke inherited that cold reaction to his the death of his uncle and aunt and Biggs from his father. Even when mourning Obi-Wan, his reaction is still rather subdued.

But Luke is ultimately able to reach the sensitive man locked within Vader’s mask through his own mastery of his emotions. Also because he’s his son, the son of his long-dead wife who still has unconditional love for his father. The same unconditional love his wife had for him, but he wasn’t able to let go of his selfishness. And while Vader exhibits the same possessive tendencies over Luke in ESB and most of ROTJ, he eventually chooses to be selfless when he can’t stand to watch his son about to die just to save him, a monster.

In their final scene together, Luke and Anakin are both more concerned about each other then themselves. Anakin’s son was able to pacify his flame and melt his armor, bring out the compassionate side of him, that Luke also inherited, but mastered far sooner.

I don’t think a Jedi should be a hippie pacifist; after all, Luke still fights all of Jabba’s minions, when he’s forced to. They fight to defend others first and themselves second. But, as Obi-Wan put it, “There are alternatives to fighting.”

I will never not be so impressed with Mark Hamill’s acting, especially in the third act. He is so convincing in portraying Luke’s zen determination, but always reminds us with subtle micro expressions that Luke is still afraid, deep down.

I think that’s important. Luke not emotionless, but he’s (almost) mastered the art of regulating his emotions. He uses his compassion for his father to attempt to reach him, but doesn’t lose control until Vader threatens his sister. When he falters, lashes out in rage, he then stops, reflects, and let’s go. Being a Jedi is about being in balance with your emotions, and Luke captures that so perfectly.

It’s hard to think of anyone else who would put themselves on the line to save an abusive father who tortured and killed people he cared about, all because he knows of the conflict that his father represses. That’s a hero.

Spartacus01 said:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think that your argument is not logical. In my opinion, it is influenced more by your strong attachment to Vader as a character, and by the fact that you want him to always be portrayed as cool and badass, rather than by a rational analysis of the broader narrative and character development that the story is trying to achieve.

I feel like my viewpoint has been overly simplified, though I don’t think you did it on purpose. I earnestly love Darth Vader as a villain, not someone to be idolized, and part of that is the character’s distinct, contrasting layers.
I will submit, I wasn’t being rational when I wrote that initial message.

I never wanted Anakin or Vader to always be badass, or his internal conflict to not be explored. I am attached to Darth Vader being an awesome villain. But it’s not just that. Otherwise that high would’ve wore off a bit ago (I have ADHD and therefore am prone to addiction-like hyper fixations; however, I’ve loved Vader for years).
I adore ROTJ and the scenes of Vader showing vulnerability. I could not imagine Vader not being a father. “I am your father” is the greatest twist of all-time, and elevated the OT ten-fold. Both Luke and Vader as characters.
I would not love Vader as much if not for that duality between the monster and the man beneath. Both badass and pathetic. Menacing and sympathetic.

I like Vader still being powerful despite the suit because yeah, I love his menacing presence. But I also like how Vader being powerful but miserable deep down emphasizes that contrast. Star Wars is about love vs. greed. What does it say that the most powerful being in the galaxy is also miserable? That Luke gains happiness because he chooses compassion over power-hunger? That’s an impactful message for a young man like myself.
He’s still punished. He still loses everything and got burned.

In discussing the character’s emotional portrayal, we have to distinguish Anakin and Vader.

Anakin in fact should be expressive, but also have a tendency to repress his emotions in distress, forming a cold persona. This doesn’t mean he can never fly off the handle either. He goes cold because he cares too much.
As I’ve noted, this is shown in the OT. Vader regresses into his cold persona immediately after he admits something vulnerable or Luke says something that gets to him. In Anakin’s death scene, now having abandoned the dark side, we see he is very caring and sentimental.

Vader, mostly, is cold, fueled by a tranquil rage. He’s an imposing villain that I enjoy on a primal level.
There’s vulnerable moments before his redemption, but they’re sparing, yet more impactful because of that.
That’s important to his character. Vader is a tyrannical egomaniac who shuts out his emotions because he never wants to feel pain again.

Just as much as his vulnerabilities enhance the character, they enhance his villainy. It’s petrifying to realize that a person who was even once a noble hero could become that robotic monster, and adds depth to both Luke and Vader.
Evil is not beyond us. Part of Luke’s emotional journey is realizing that he could become just like his father.
It’s also impactful to see such a monster of a man redeem himself. It’s never too late.

My issues with the Prequels is that they too often handle his vulnerabilities in an almost infantile way. Way less often then OT Luke. It works for him because it’s less consuming.
When Anakin flies off the handle, it’s less of an adult anger and more amateur and teenage. A 23 year old man should not be yelling “It’s not fair!” in the childish manner he does.
Compare Vader angrily commanding his troops in ANH to that scene. It’s just not the same.
While you can argue it’s because he’s young for 2/3 of the trilogy, that’s one of it’s fundamental flaws of the trilogy IMO.

Anakin’s journey should parallel Luke’s better. Similar, but they should also fundamentally contrast one-another.
He should’ve been 19 in TPM, his mother dying in that film. Unlike Luke, where his uncle and aunts deaths inspire him to be a hero to prevent others from feeling that pain, Anakin wants to gain power to prevent himself from feeling that pain again.
Then in AOTC, we can parallel Luke in that now he’s an established general, but also goes on this journey of spiritual discovery, this time leaning on the dark. At the end of the film, when given a choice between selfish and selfless (like Luke’s sacrifice), he chooses selfish.
In ROTS, he’s colder. Not exactly like OT Vader, but more like ROTJ Luke, where he’s calm, but still prone to anger. The crucial difference is that Luke achieves that by actually letting go of his emotions. He in fact allows himself to feel them, but not consume him. Anakin achieves it by repressing them, so he goes cold. Darth Vader is the ultimate culmination of that.

Could any Peter Cushing footage in another movie suffice to add Tarkin to the Prequels even for a cameo as an Admiral, perhaps on Anakin’s battalion? Could one incorporate an idea of him being the one to design Vader’s suit?

I could survey his Frankenstein movies but I’m not really sure if one could use material from it considering he spends the entire time in Victorian era fashion.

paja said:

I thought this was a cool concept and cranked this up.

https://streamable.com/kjlngg?src=player-page-share

Not perfect and looks like there’s a wildfire happening instead of just Autumn, however I think it came out well.

Yayyyyy ppl like some of my ideas!

This is awesome man. Whilst I agree there’s room for improvement this is still impressive.

I’ve made some attempts of my own and it’s certainly harder then some online tutorials made it look, but I hope I can get it to look how I want. Your results turned out better then mine.

G&G-Fan said:

Something that’s insane to me is that Lucas when making the Prequels’ attitude towards Darth Vader. He spends the entire trilogy neutering the hell out of him, telling us he was a brat and that his iconic badass suit was actually hampering him (which doesn’t make any sense with how he established the Force to work), and even making him pathetically whine “Nooo!” like a cartoon. He doesn’t do this to any other villain. But at the same time, he gave into how much of a sensation Vader is by plastering him all over the advertising and making the entire saga surround him. It’s like he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a creator have such a contradictory mindset about a character.

I for some reason had a random flashback to this comment I made, and wanted to clarify that I don’t think Lucas hates Darth Vader or was “out to get him”. Of course he still wanted him to be a terrifying and powerful villain.
I just think that, at times, the Prequels went too far in trying to subvert him, and leaned too hard on the pathetic side of the character, which I think should be handled more sparingly and subtextually, like the theatrical ROTJ. And this was me venting my frustration in that aspect. Tho I’m sure a lot agree anyway.

I love how this film’s major plot point of the villains intending for our heroes to escape the Death Star characterizes Vader and Tarkin. They sent a bunch of troopers to die just to pretend to kill our heroes. That’s cold.

Mocata said:

Yeah it’s not that obvious, although he just calls him a strange old hermit earlier on, rather than anything more formal.

That’s part of what confuses me, I feel like there’s a bit of a mixed message as to how well he knows him. The way he talks to him when he calls him “Ben” feels like he’s addressing someone who’s been a mentor figure to him for years, whom he has a lot of respect for.

Maybe he has, but he still thinks of Ben as “strange” because he doesn’t talk about himself or his past very much? The way he says it does sound like he’s not too familiar with him.

Who made the Palpatine face transformation shot where his face goes from normal to monstrous?

I’m gonna use it for my own edit and want to credit the artist.

For my edits, I want Dooku’s true Sith form to be like a vampire. I never liked that he wasn’t physically corrupted by the dark side. I want him to be more like Dracula.

Here are some vampire Dooku tests. The gray skin is quite simple, creating a mask around his face and tracking it.
The red eyes are a lot more difficult, tracking especially. It took a lot of tweaking to make them look passable. I’d appreciate help in that arena, if someone else is interested.

Vampire Dooku tests

The gray skin is quite simple, creating a mask around his face and tracking it. The red eyes are a lot more difficult, tracking especially. It took a lot of tweaking to make them look passable. I’d appreciate help in that arena, if someone else is interested.

I think I’ve captured a better balance between red and orange. The previous ones I feel swayed too much one way or the other.

This just came to me: what if Tarkin designed Vader’s suit?

Tarkin should’ve been in the Prequels. He’s too important to have not been. He should’ve been a military admiral alongside Anakin, thus adding to Vader and Tarkin’s mutual respect.

Also, it’d be a great nod to Hammer horror, in which Peter Cushing played Victor Frankenstein.

How long did Luke know Ben, in the context of the OT?

To me, it always felt like they knew each other for awhile, but couldn’t see each other often because of Owen. They seem familiar with one another in their scenes together.

“Ben! Boy am I glad to see you.”

“Tell me young Luke, what brings you out this far?”

Whether or not they knew each other for awhile, I’ve never agreed with the criticism of Luke for being too sad when he dies. Luke is a person who grows to care for people fast. Likely because he doesn’t seem to have many friends on Tatooine left.

Luke about R2 near the end of the movie, after a couple days with him:
“Not on your life! That little droid and I have been through a lot together.”

On OT Radical Redux thread, I proposed changing Yavin’s (gas giant) color in ANH, and the red/orange gas giant be Endor, the planet the sanctuary moon is of.
Contrasting green and red/orange symbolizes the ultimate clash between good and evil. Also a tribute to the throne room originally being volcanic.

Attempts “Hellish” Emperor’s throne room. I did two versions, red hue and orange hue (to mimic the carbon freezing chamber).
This scene is turning out really well, I think.

Others, struggling a little bit. I’m struggling to remove a purple shadow from Vader’s saber in this shot, and my method has also completely fucked up Luke’s skin. I don’t want him looking like a vampire (at least I know an easy way to make Dooku look like one, now; that’ll come in handy).

Feedback and help would be much appreciated.

They totally should’ve gone full Frankenstein with Vader’s scene of being put into the suit.

“Now I know what it feels like to be God!”

An homage to the line from Vader could be like, “Now I know the true power of the Force!”

“Don’t you see what it means? Power! Power to rule! Power to make the world grovel at my feet!” - Jack Griffin, The Invisible Man

“If you only knew the power of the dark side!” - Darth Vader, The Empire Strikes Back

I’ve been recently rewatching (and enjoying) 30s monster movies (Frankenstein & Bride, The Invisible Man, etc.) I can say 100% that the romance scenes are never as cheesy as the AOTC ones. Sometimes it’s a bit on-the-nose, but it’s charming rather then grating (tho I will say, the romance in The Wolf Man hasn’t aged well, due to the social conventions of the time).

The performances play a part of it too. Claude Rains eats up his power-hungry monologues as Jack Griffin as much as James Earl Jones does as Darth Vader OT, and his scenes with Gloria Stuart are flowery but charming. Both Rains and Stuart were theatre actors, and thus knew how to pull off compelling melodrama. Same with Colin Clive as Henry Frankenstein and the two actresses that played Elizabeth.
Meanwhile, it feels like Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are uncomfortable with the dialogue. They’re not experienced with that theatre melodrama, so it’s just awkward.
It’s also why Ian McDiarmid and Christoper Lee fare better with their material. McDiarmid is a theatre actor and Lee was basically reprising his role as Dracula.

darthrush said:

-remove Vader saying “I must obey my master”. Now he just says “You don’t know the power of the dark side”. Vader should be confident in what he believes is right like in ESB, rather than doing it just cause of the Emperor. For goodness sakes, he was plotting to take over before this film.
-remove Vader saying “It is too late for me son.” Way too obvious of foreshadowing, cheapens his eventual turn, and makes Vader seem like he already knows that what he believes in is wrong and misguided. This moment of self revelation for our characters is meant to happen at the END of the arc.
-remove the Emperor saying “You must know by now your father can never be turned from the dark side.” This just sounds plain stupid and makes the Emperor think of Vader as some prize that he has fooled. Vader should feel like a respected ally and learner of the Emperor.
-remove Vader saying “It is useless to resist.” What is this, some sort of shiny object called the Dark side being dangled in front of Luke. This makes the dark side feel less complex.

1 & 2. Darth Vader doesn’t believe he’s doing the right thing. He’s outright sadistic, and power is all that matters to him. That’s the meaning of lines like, “If you only knew the power of the dark side!” and “I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further.” He gloats about making Lando his bitch in his face. Twice.
A layer of regressed guilt is ashamed, but he doubles down on being evil because of his ego.

Darth Vader didn’t get high off of lording his power over others and make jokes about killing and torturing people because he thought it was the right thing. He doesn’t care what’s right, it’s about power.

His arc in the film isn’t him finding out the evil magic and killing people is actually bad (which, yeah, he’s a man in his late 40s, he should know that). It’s about choosing love over power. Not knowledge, choice.

3 & 4. I fail to see how the Emperor and Vader presenting the dark side as what it is, a powerful seductive drug, makes it “less complex”. It’s like any other dark magic in any other fantasy story. That’s what it is and always has been.

Anyone here British or have a British accent and comfortable with voice acting?

I’d like to experiment with redubbing some of the officers in ANH when talking to Vader so their attitude towards him is more like in ESB and ROTJ, more timid and submissive. They’d address him more by “my lord” then “sir” (he is called “sir” in all 3 as well, but there’s more "my lord"s in the latter two films).

The extras in ANH were British actors redubbed by Americans, so I personally wouldn’t feel bad about it.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yes, the robotic filter is slightly missing for the AI part. Same problem I encountered for Zorri in Ascendant (but surprisingly not Kylo).

Maybe decreasing the volume slightly for that part could help disguise it better. Otherwise, we’d have to figure out how Lucasfilm designed the Vader voice filter.

To reiterate, I don’t think it’s that noticeable. Only people who are purposely paying attention would notice.

Ryan Golden has practically perfectly replicated the Vader filters, even for each individual movie (it was different each time). I could ask him about it. I’m friends with him.