logo Sign In

G&G-Fan

User Group
Members
Join date
17-Jan-2019
Last activity
28-Mar-2024
Posts
783

Post History

Post
#1531934
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

I’m taking the previous one as permission to include supplemental material, so…

  1. Empire Strikes Back
  2. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith (2017 Comic Run)
  3. Return of the Jedi
  4. A New Hope
  5. The Mandalorian
  6. Darth Vader (2015 Comic Run)
  7. The Clone Wars (2008)
  8. Andor
  9. Darth Vader (2020 Comic Run)
  10. Rogue One
  11. Revenge of the Sith
  12. The Bad Batch
  13. The Force Awakens
  14. Tales of the Jedi
  15. Solo
  16. Obi-Wan Kenobi
  17. Book of Boba Fett
  18. The Phantom Menace
  19. The Last Jedi
  20. Attack of the Clones
  21. The Rise of Skywalker
Post
#1531794
Topic
The "Vader Edition" Star Wars Saga - Episodes 1-6 Edits (1/6 available) (WIP) (Revival)
Time

I have DRASTICALLY re-edited this thread. My edits will be nothing like the ones I had in mind when I first created this. The OT changes are minor, the only changes are the ones that I mentioned. My Prequels will be way more edited, as my Big Prequel Fan days are over and I’ve come to agree with more criticisms over time.

My edits of the Prequels can’t fix them entirely (they really need a full rewrite) but I wanna make the best films out of what’s available that I can for my own enjoyment.

I hope you guys read my suggestions and are interested in my ideas.

Post
#1531247
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

Juno Eclipse said:

It also marks low for me as there is not much in the way of a friendship or brotherhood shown between Ben and Anakin. Yes, that should have occurred more in the previous films, or accomplished it better in them, but this was the ‘final shot’ at portraying that. The same also applies for Padme and Anakin’s relationship, and crucially, “Vader being seduced by the dark side of the force”, instead of what we got as his reason for “the turn”.

Before it was released those were the four things I wanted to see done well in ROTS, and thought that we would get, despite the shortcomings in TPM and AOTC. Yet, for me it failed across the board.

Regarding Anakin and Obi-Wan’s friendship, there isn’t as much as we should’ve gotten in the trilogy, but it was there in ROTS, unlike the other two. You see it in the opening mission and when Obi-Wan says goodbye when leaving for Utapau.

The romance is bad but not as bad as AOTC.

Anakin’s final seduction is also bad, though again, it’s a trilogy wide issue. It’s frankly impossible to pull the Walter White-esque turn we really should’ve gotten by this point because the other two movies didn’t do enough. We don’t see Anakin get gradually seduced by the dark side’s power. So Lucas came up with a half-assed, rushed turn.

ROTS isn’t very good, but I still give it the highest ranking of the Prequels (still far below the OT) because at least it feels alive. TPM, while arguably the most functional, is boring. AOTC is a cringe-inducing clusterfuck. ROTS is stupid, but fun.

ROTS from the moment Anakin turns is better then the other two Prequels combined.

I respect your opinion though, I’m just giving mine.

Post
#1530976
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Channel72 said:

I never liked the Prequel Jedi doctrine forbidding romantic relationships. For one thing, nothing in Star Wars before the Prequels ever suggested this idea. Sure, in Empire Strikes Back Yoda tells Luke that his Jedi training is more important than loyalty to his friends. But these were dire circumstances. We can’t extrapolate from this that official Jedi doctrine forbade romantic attachments. I mean certainly not after Mara Jade showed up. (I know that wasn’t Lucas, but whatever).

The Jedi order was originally suggested to be something like a cross between mythologized versions of Samurai and Arthurian Knights - an order of elite warriors committed to serving the Republic. With the introduction of Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, the original warrior/soldier Kurosawa stuff (“General Kenobi in the clone wars”) was downplayed in favor of an emphasis on meditation and self-defense. Elements of Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism were mixed in. But even though some forms of monastic Buddhism have traditions of celibacy, this isn’t mandated, and there was nothing in Star Wars to suggest it anyway. Of all Anakin’s sins, it was never suggested that getting married and having children was one of them.

The fact that the Jedi must choose between the Order and marriage seems to stem from Lucas personally. Lucas lost Marcia because of his commitment to making movies, especially Star Wars. He had two marriages and had to choose between them, and movies won out.

Lucas put a lot more of himself in Star Wars then people think. He gave the Jedi his philosophy. The relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is likely inspired by him being a student and then friend of Francis Ford Coppola.

https://david-talks-sw.tumblr.com/post/701056073444032512/the-real-life-inspiration-for-obi-wan-anakins

JadedSkywalker said:

The attachment thing and keeping him from his mother should have been the reason he turned on the Jedi. Also a desire for justice, the Jedi didn’t care about the slaves. And his desiring power. Anakin wants the power to dominate life and the lives of others, and to maintain order through force. He aligns with Palpatine because they agree the Empire is the way to balance chaos. Obi-Wan doesn’t agree he trusts the people and believes in Democracy. He becomes an enemy of the new order.

Join the darkside to save Padme is just idiotic.

The Jedi never kept Anakin from his mother, nor did they not care about slaves. The first one is just a plot hole because frankly, Shmi is a plot device in Anakin’s fall and if the Jedi save her there’s less story. George called them “the most moral of anyone in the galaxy”, therefore he didn’t have them not save her to portray them in a bad light. The second is because the Jedi don’t have the man-power to wage war on the entire Outer Rim without the Senate’s backing, which they refuse to give.

Other then that I agree with you, though I do think Anakin wanting to cheat death is a really interesting idea that could actually really work, especially if he also wants it for himself. You could even tie that desire to Vader being a cyborg, though that’d admittedly be a quite radical change.

Post
#1530918
Topic
Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Released)
Time

Drakul said:

I don’t know if your still thinking of doing this but I left the stuff I think would be nice. Personally I’ve never been a hater of this movie. It’s just the Jar Jar antics (not enven the character himself) that annoy me. As well as the midichlorian stuff and a few of Anakin’s childish outbursts.

Then this edit isn’t for you.

Post
#1530874
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Anakin being with Padme while he’s a Jedi is inherently wrong because Anakin’s married to the Order. It’s a commitment.

Close relationships are allowed. Masters and their padawans are very close. Tiplar and Tipler were sisters and loved each other. Obi-Wan outright says, he loved Anakin as a brother. Also it’s not like Yoda or Obi-Wan said he couldn’t be friends with Han or Leia, they just warned him that his feelings were/could be manipulated.

Loving everyone equally is not what it’s about. Luke didn’t love Vader equally as much as he loved Han and Leia, but he still did.

But the prequels portray this poorly as the Jedi are so flat and boring, nor does Lucas ever dive into his ideology more then, “Let go of your attachments, Anakin”.

Post
#1530865
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Bro really just hated on Buddhism, that’s kinda racist

Also if you actually took the time to learn the Buddhist principle of non-attachment you’d learn it’s basic common sense.

“The Buddhist concept of non-attachment is a constructive way to approach relationships. Here, attachment refers to an attempt to control things that you can’t control. When you try to grasp or control something outside of yourself, this causes suffering for yourself and the other person.”

Post
#1530861
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

I’m not one of those people who thinks we should just accept everything Lucas says in regards to Star Wars, our interpretations are just as valid, but I do want to add this in here:

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.”

(Also I cut this quote short because it’s extremely long. But if anyone is curious to what he says next I can post it. The point Lucas is getting at is: Attachment=bad. Jedi not acting on attachments=good. Love=/=attachment. Jedi have no issue with love. And Anakin fell because he didn’t listen to Jedi philosophy.)

I actually really like many of the ideas Lucas is presenting in all these behind the scenes interviews about the prequels and whatnot, but its a shame its not conveyed as well in the films.

I agree with this completely. I was talking about Filoni’s interpretation of the prequels. Which most people in the Star Wars fanbase accept. Lucas’ idea about the Jedi teachings being right is good.

I don’t like how Lucas portrayed Anakin’s fall either, but I’d rather have him be an idiot who blindly believe Palpatine’s claim about cheating death then blaming the Jedi. At least it’s still a selfish power hungry motivation and kinda being “seduced by the power of the dark side”, even if he’s idiotically tricked into becoming evil.

I hate the Filoniverse. The worshipping of Ahsoka and Qui-Gon, the hate on the Jedi like Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu, and how it’s warped the fanbase into believing that the prequels are actually a super brilliant critique on the Jedi Order. I love The Mandalorian and (some of) The Clone Wars, but still.

Post
#1530856
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Not only is that Filoni’s interpretation not Lucas’ but Vader’s fate being based on a duel he wasn’t in when he was 9 and implying his turn is the Jedi’s fault is so fucking stupid.

We were told Vader was seduced to the dark side, not that he was a poor baby victim of bad Jedi teachings.

We were also told the Jedi were in their prime before the Empire.

It’s like blaming Walter White becoming Heisenberg on Hank.

Post
#1530213
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Channel72 said:

Yeah, but like… nobody wants to see this. And there’s no reason Anakin had to be written this way. Lucas decided to portray the Jedi as a weird cult that suppresses familial bonds and romantic attachments, but there’s no reason they had to be written that way. I always imagined Anakin as this well-adjusted, somewhat brash ace pilot. Not “roguish” like Han Solo, but just confident and principled. Yeah, it’s just my personal preference, but I would argue that this portrayal would benefit the story way more than what we got, because the entire point of Anakin’s arc is that he was supposed to be a good man who fell from grace. But the Prequels instead portray him as this emotionally unstable hormone explosion with homicidal tendencies from the very moment we first meet him. (Not counting Episode 1, which features an entirely different Anakin.)

The funny thing is that the Jedi aren’t actually supposed to be that, Lucas just makes them look that way because they’re written in the most boring, flat way possible and he never explains what he means by “attachment” (which is the Buddhist definition, the inability to let go of things).

Also hard agree there. Not only was Vader clearly not an explosive character, thus creating disconnect, but he’s also just not likable at all. Your audience needs to care about your main character to get invested in their arc.

Lucas seemed to think that portraying Anakin initially as this cherubic, innocent little child would produce such a stark contrast with Vader as to sufficiently fulfill the “fall from grace” narrative. Except the whole point of a “fall from grace” narrative is to track the character transformation as it plays out via personal choices. A little kid doesn’t even have a brain developed enough to make any dramatically interesting choices.

Bingo. If someone peaked when they were 10 then there’s literally nothing to save. They’re not a good person at all. Hell you can even be a mean kid who steals the other kids toys and pulls the girl’s hair and then be really mature and well-adjusted as a teen and adult. Nobody gives a shit, the first 12 years of your life are basically just a free trial.

Michael Corleone would have been a useful model when writing Anakin, in a broad sense. I wouldn’t want Anakin to be as serious or as emotionally reserved - I mean it’s a Star Wars movie, it needs to be snappy and upbeat most of the time. But Michael Corleone provides a good template for the general arc required here - somebody that makes a series of individual choices, initially with honorable intentions, but slowly becomes more and more of a monster. Michael Corleone activates full Sith mode when he kills his brother-in-law and then coldly lies about it to his widowed sister.

Yep, and Michael also has that cold, collected, commanding demeanor that Vader has. He’s like the perfect template to to the point where I can’t help but think there wasn’t some inspiration from him when OT Vader was written. Coppola and Lucas were great friends after all.

Post
#1530210
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

StarkillerAG said:

I do think “he’s just not a good guy” could be a potentially interesting route, but I’m worried that it would lead to Vader’s redemption not really feeling earned. If he was always a psychotic narcissist deep inside, is it really a “redemption”, or just a deathbed conversion?

My ideal take on Anakin’s turn would combine a desire for power with the “save Padme” thing from the original movie. He starts out with seemingly noble intentions (although his real motivations are more narcissistic), but the more dark things he does in his wife’s name, the more he realizes how good the dark side feels. By the end, he’s become fully mad with power, to the point where he makes his visions come true by choking his wife to death, and doesn’t even realize the irony of it afterwards.

No matter what, though, the “Palpatine gaslights Anakin into thinking the Jedi are evil” plotline has to go. It’s possibly the worst aspect of the original movie. Anakin should be an intelligent person who was seduced by attachment and the promise of power, not a moron who fell for the most obvious lie in the history of the galaxy.

I agree with this 100%. This this this. All about this.

Vader does love the dark side in the OT. He loves punishing those he hates, even Imperials like Motti, Ozzel and Needa. He even makes sadistic jokes about it. But deep down he does have guilt because there’s a good person buried deep down. He just keeps giving into his lust for the power of the dark side and his hatred.

Post
#1530141
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Funnily enough ANH Luke still feels more like someone that could become OT Vader then AOTC Anakin.

That cold angry stare when witnessing his uncle and aunt’s deaths feels like how a younger Vader would react to the death of a loved one. Luke was even able to stay collected and focused after the loss of his best friend.

Post
#1530113
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

First of all, I’m not claiming that Kane and General Vader were combined into one character in the early drafts, nor did I ever say that. I’m saying that the Vader we ended up getting post-ESB is basically a combination of those two characters (though from your previous post it seems he was also combined with Prince Valorum). Vader always being Luke’s father is technically correct as the current character of Vader is basically half Kane, who was a rogue Jedi cyborg and father of Annikin (Luke). There’s even the part where Kane sacrifices himself to save the heroes, just like ROTJ Vader.

Second of all, I think it’s very obvious that Lucas is talking about Kane and not Annikin in that quote. He likely mixed them up. As I already said.

Post
#1530108
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Just a random comment, but I don’t really get it when people say Obi-Wan should’ve been the protagonist of the prequels instead of Anakin. Obi-Wan’s a great character, but if executed well, Anakin’s arc is easily way more interesting.

It feels like making Hank Schrader the protagonist of Breaking Bad instead of Walt.

Post
#1530102
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

What I said was really simple. The Darth Vader we know and love today is basically Kane Starkiller and General Vader combined into one character. Kane was a rogue Jedi cyborg and Annikin Starkiller’s father (who became Luke). Darth Vader in the original drafts was simply a general for the empire. The final incarnation of Darth Vader is second in command of the emperor, a Sith lord who broke away from the Jedi, a cyborg, and Luke Skywalker’s father.

So yes, from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. Or at least, there was always an element of “rogue Jedi cyborg is the protagonists dad”.

I’m assuming when Lucas said it was about Annikin and his kids, he probably either misspoke, mixed up the characters, or he said that for convenience because he didn’t want to have to go on and explain who Kane was.

Post
#1529584
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

Regarding the thing about Vader always being Luke’s father, I found some info about why Lucas might have said this.

Originally, in the very early drafts, there were two characters. Kane Starkiller/Akira Valor/The Starkiller, a half-machine/half-man and Jedi-in-hiding, who is the father of the main character Annikin Starkiller (who’d later go on to be Luke Skywalker). And Darth Vader, a general for the Empire. The two characters later became combined into one.

George Lucas said:

“Well, to be very honest with you, when I wrote the very very first script it was about Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, uh, he was a rogue Jedi, and there were remnants of that [draft] that found its way into the final Star Wars.”
-MovieFone Unscripted, 2005

So from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. It was just discarded but then we ended up getting something that more resembled the original idea.

Post
#1529560
Topic
Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Released)
Time

I like rearranging it so Anakin feeling slighted by the Council and being told to betray Palpatine before the dream so they have weight in his fall. Emphasizing Anakin’s authoritarian political beliefs and a genuine lust for power beyond just saving Padme is, IMO, really the only way to make Anakin’s fall somewhat work with just a fan-edit, without a full rewrite (which would be ideal, but you can’t really watch it). It makes him feel more like the same person as Darth Vader from the OT.

It would be really beneficial if you tried to make a point of Anakin being addicted to the dark side and basically subconsciously looking for an excuse to fall, kinda like Walter White. Having the dream be more of the straw that broke the camels back then the sole reason makes it slightly more believable that he would commit genocide over it.

Post
#1529230
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

regularjoe said:

General Grievous.
Hey Jar Jar Binks was an awful character, can you guys come up with something even worse?

Nah General Grievous is kinda one of the better parts of the movie IMO. He’s a cowardly mustache twirling baddie and I love em. He funni

I’m like one of the few people who prefers that portrayal. Just making him “cold badass cyborg Jedi slayer with tragic backstory” is too much like Darth Vader. Let Vader be Vader and the other villains stick out.