G&G-Fan

Spartacus01 said:

In the Prequel Trilogy, Anakin was in his early 20s, while in the Original Trilogy he was in his early 40s. It is natural that his behavior and mannerisms would have changed over time.

G&G-Fan said:

My issues with the Prequels is that they too often handle his vulnerabilities in an almost infantile way. Way less often then OT Luke. It works for him because it’s less consuming.
When Anakin flies off the handle, it’s less of an adult anger and more amateur and teenage. A 23 year old man should not be yelling “It’s not fair!” in the childish manner he does.
Compare Vader angrily commanding his troops in ANH to that scene. It’s just not the same.
While you can argue it’s because he’s young for 2/3 of the trilogy, that’s one of it’s fundamental flaws of the trilogy IMO.

ROTJ Luke never acts as teenage as ROTS Anakin does sometimes. And he’s also 23.
The point of ROTJ is that, despite how much he’s grown, Luke is just as prone to turning to the dark side as Anakin was.
Both trilogies are supposed to be about one’s personal responsibility in their choices to be selfless or selfish.

George Lucas:

“It was designed to be a film, like, mythology, of “this is what we stand for, you’re about to enter the real world. You’re 12-years old, you’re gonna go on into the big world, […] here is a little idea of some of the things you should pay attention to.” Friendships, honesty, trust and doing the right thing. Living on the light side, avoiding the dark side. Those are things that it was meant to do.”

(for the record, he says in another similar quote that the films are for everybody, but are also supposed to be made to be suited for 12-year-olds)

Anytime it seems like the Prequels are trying to divert responsibility away from Anakin for his fall, or make it look like he had more of a reason to turn then his son, is a misinterpretation as a result of poor execution on Lucas’ part.
The only difference between father and son in their battles with the dark side is that they made different choices. One chose power-hunger, the other chose love. Or at least, that’s how it should be.

Anakin doesn’t need to be exactly like OT Vader, but a younger version of the same character, recognizable as him.
Like 2017 Comic Vader: he’s cold, but at times more openly rageful, boastful, and impulsive. Yet, it’s handled delicately, he’s written like an adult, and it’s recognizably Vader. It’s a respectable younger version of OT Vader.

Lucas already made a trilogy where the character goes from a more youthful, teenage anger to a colder, more adult anger, and it’s called the Original Trilogy. It’s actually astounding that ROTJ Luke acts more like OT Vader then ROTS Anakin, especially considering the former is the one that rejects the dark side. There’s no reason Lucas couldn’t have done a similar thing again.

it is uncommon for individuals to retain the same attitudes and ways of behaving in their 20s as in their 40s. This is especially true in Anakin’s case, given that he fell to the Dark Side and became a Sith Lord.

The point of the Prequels is to show how Anakin became Vader. He fell to the dark side and became a Sith in the movies.

Spartacus01 said:

Furthermore, I do not remember any particular instance where Vader represses his emotions in front of Luke. Could you provide some examples?

Luke: “I’ve accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.”
Vader: (angry) “That name no longer as any meaning for me!”

Luke: “It is the name of your true self you’ve only forgotten. I know there is good in you. […]”
(Vader turns on Luke’s lightsaber as a subtle threat, reminding him who has the power in the situation, a defense mechanism against his son’s armor piercing words.)
Vader: (changing the subject, cold again) “I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. […] Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen.”

Luke: (compassionate) “Come away with me.”
Vader: (vulnerable) “Obi-Wan once thought as you do.”
(immediately goes cold again)
Vader: “You don’t know the power of the dark side. […]”

Luke: (firm) “I will not turn. And you’ll be forced to kill me.”
Vader: (cold as ice) “If that is your destiny.” (literally telling his son he will kill him if he doesn’t turn to the dark side)

Vader: (vulnerable) “It is too late for me, son.”
(motions his troops)
Vader: (cold again) “The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.”

He spends the entire conversation either ignoring Luke’s words, getting mad at him, or briefly admitting something before immediately going cold again, talking about the dark side, power, and the Emperor (the things that have defined his life to this point). Because Vader is a tyrannical egomaniac who loves feeling invincible, he refuses to allow himself to ever feel “weak” again. He’s a toxic-masculine character.
This conversation is the exception. He only opened up because his son showed him compassion and believes in him despite only knowing him as a Sith Lord who cut off his hand and tortured/killed friends. That was enough to weaken the armor (and thus his connection to the dark side) but not enough to destroy it, and he doubles down again and again. The armor can only be destroyed by himself by making the choice to be compassionate instead of cold by saving his son.

Vader represses his vulnerable emotions in the entirety of the first two movies and the rest of ROTJ until he redeems himself. One of the most on-the-nose examples:

Luke: (sensing the repressed conflict in his father) “I feel the good in you, the conflict.”
Vader: (cold) “There is no conflict.”

Channel72 said:

I know that Vader’s evil Mordor castle is a product of the 1970s, but since it never actually appeared in the OT, I guess I never really liked it. I don’t like things that make Vader closer to being Dracula or something. Vader to me is more of an efficient, dystopian villain, who spends his time in sterile, technological conference rooms and control centers. He has no interest in or time for melodramatic things like evil fortresses surrounded by lava. That sort of chthonic or infernal imagery is way too on the nose and thematically inconsistent with Vader’s story. Vader lives in an efficient, sterile world of starship technology and life support systems.

Vader’s the sci-fi equivalent of a wraith. Wraiths live in hell.

Yes, Vader’s cold. But he has a furnace heart, this boiling tranquil rage that surfaces when the opportunity arises to use it as a weapon to enforce his rule, when he conquers opponents and punishes his own men. Almost like lava.
When your heart is that scalding, all your blood goes cold, like a third-degree burn.

It’s not the first time he’s been associated with Hell imagery.

Two of the SE edits during the Death Star chase actually contradict the original plot.

The stormtroopers leading Han and Chewie into the barracks and “Close the blast doors”. Since they’re only pretending to try and kill them, and are actually allowing them to escape, it’s odd to lead them to a barrack since Han will then wonder why more troopers didn’t pursue them. And if the plan to close the blast doors on them worked, what are they gonna do then? It’s gonna be really awkward to make them think they escaped because of their own skills when you literally have them trapped.

And yes, I’m sure that plan was devised by that point. As indicated by Vader’s line, “[The princess] may yet be of use to us.” That’s why they didn’t terminate her immediately.

A way to have Luke have been on Dagobah between ESB and ROTJ without moving the Dagobah scenes to the beginning.
I prefer the scene arrangement in the original because I like the buildup of the first act, and the OT in isolation doesn’t need to have Luke train more, because it’s the original and therefore is free to establish how long Jedi training takes.
However, I think having Luke train for a year works as long as there’s a way to retain the scene arrangement of the original.

Take the deleted scene of Luke turning on his new lightsaber and putting it into R2. Background changed to Dagobah. Then simply wipe to the droids on Tatooine. Rest of the movie goes on as normal.

Luke returns to Tatooine after having spent a year on Dagobah simultaneously training and coordinating the plan with his friends using holograms.

Fortress Vader - the Perfect Star Wars Halloween Story

The story of a dark lord who obtains a haunted mask instructing him to build a castle on a lava planet to resurrect the dead

Suggestions for ways to make it so Revenge of the Sith appears to occur over a matter of months rather then days?

There’s a few ideas I can think of, like removing Palpatine telling Anakin he discovered Grievous’ location, so there’s room to interpret the next scene takes place like a week later rather then the next day (how did Yoda arrive on Kashyyyk and set up that whole base in a single morning anyway?). But it’s difficult to come up with something that makes it more clear this is a longer span of time.

Maybe try to do a visual effect with Padme’s belly so it grows over the course of the film? I wouldn’t know how to do that.

In the OT (with the exception of ANH) it feels like the timeline is more ambiguous. ESB and ROTJ feel like they could’ve taken place over months rather then like a week.
The longer timeline would make Anakin’s turn into Vader feel more convincing. He wasn’t a swashbuckling heroic guy just 3 days before killing his friends.

Also, for TPM, turn the Trade Federation into the Federation of Neimodia (so just the government of the planet) and the Neimoidians are just colonists. Nothing about trade or taxes.

losthead said:

Has anyone tried adding the Sarlacc escape scene from Book of Boba Fett into Return of the Jedi? I can’t imagine it fitting in or adding something substantial, but I’m curious if there could be anything there.

I had an idea I think I shared earlier where Fett survives the Sarlacc but is killed by Vader for his failure to capture Luke (following up on an idea in which Vader hires him to capture Luke, tying the Rescue of Han plot into the Vader-Luke plot).

I feel some of the disparity of what Star Wars is about is rooted in different interpretations of what it fundamentally is, at it’s core.

Star Wars is not Star Trek that also happens to have space wizards and magic added in.
Star Wars is mythology with a pulpy science-fiction coat of paint.

I have.

Probably should’ve said this earlier. Ryan Golden’s willing to do the new Vader line.

I just need to save the money to pay him to do it (I’m also having him do some others that I want for my edits; it’s more convenient to do multiple at once).

I really wish the SE version of the “I don’t like the look of this” shot with the stormtrooper and dewback didn’t have such ugly CGI because while it sticks out like a sore thumb, the original shot has so much empty space on that side of the frame that it makes me appreciate the concept of the change.

Damnit George, would it have been too much to just redo the CGI?

Since we were discussing the odd lack of detail of the 1997 CGI shoots in the 2019 versions, I wonder if one could restore it using 4K97 for those shots? Since it’s be a scan of the actual film print it’d probably be the highest resolution out there for those shots.

Will be keeping a keen eye on this. I look forward to its release, if that’s the plan.

If one were to integrate the Vader-Fett subplot in the first act, you could have a shot of a bunch of severed bounty hunter heads next to Vader. They were others that were hired, each killed for their failure.

Shows how relentless Vader’s search for Luke has been.

IlFanEditore said:

You mean from the Endor scenes?
It was a soft glow effect with added color using Sony Vegas.

Thank you.

How did you accomplish the bioluminescence effect from the previous version of your edit?

Have HD versions of the fixed out-of-focus Vader close-ups in his arrival on DSII been released? If not, would you be willing to share them? I’d love to use them for my own edit and I know it’ll be a long time before this releases.

If not, how did you accomplish the effect, so I may try it myself?

ildiem said:

… Wait what’s the third?

There’s technically 3 “official canons”.

G-Canon, or Lucas Canon, is exclusively Episodes 1-6 and Clone Wars Seasons 1-6
The old Expanded Universe
And Disney Canon

G-Canon and the old EU are often conflated, but the fact is Lucas hardly paid attention and cared about the EU, and it contradicts Lucas’ intent numerous times.
https://www.tumblr.com/david-talks-sw/704700336111304704/george-lucas-involvement-in-the-expanded-universe?source=share

Which canon is the best is up to you. Though at this point, everybody basically has their own headcanon, a mishmash of the stuff they like, including me 😃

Anakin Starkiller said:

As far as I can tell this is basically how it is in all three official continuities, with occasional exceptions like Dooku. Honestly, if you want him to look monstrous, giving him yellow Sith eyes would be a good start.

…yes… that was the point I was making… Dooku is an exception. There shouldn’t be exceptions. You don’t get to mess with the dark side without consequences.
And the Prequels made it so Palpatine’s face is because of the lightning. It should be dark side corruption.
Not only does Vader’s suit look monstrous, a result of his immolation, a cosmic consequence, but under the mask he’s pale and scarred because of the dark side. He’s canonically supposed to be 46 but looks far worse, a testament to how much the dark side corrupted him.
In my interpretation, Zabrak’s are naturally brown (like Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar), and Maul looks like that because of the dark side.

That just leaves Dooku, and I’ve already posted what I plan on doing with Dooku.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Giving each Sith their own unique power is an interesting train of thought.

I want to add more supernatural dark side powers other then Force lightning. Everyone always talks about “the power of the dark side”, and while I understand they’re referring to it’s raw power, I think giving the Sith more “superpowers” makes it more alluring.

However, the idea is that the powers extract a toll, both on the soul and body. Which is why in my version, all of the Sith, not just Maul and Vader, look like monsters. Sidious’ face is not due to lightning being reflected on him but the dark side, and Dooku’s true form looks like a vampire. It’s the classic mythic trope of physical corruption due to dark magic.

TheDimitrios said:

Your best shot would probably be to deepfake Tarkin onto another character in the background.

But as is, for me the cameo in RotS is enough. And he also shows up in Clone Wars, so no urgent need imo.

It’s not critical for me either, I just thought it’d be cool.

Another thing. I’ve talked before in another thread about my desire to give each Sith their own unique ability. The force lightning is Palpatine’s; a classic warlock power. Dooku is vampiric, temporarily drawing on one’s life force like a parasite. Vader is his iconic force choke (tho I might consider adding another, more “cosmic” power as well, but one that reflects his more blunt personality). What about Maul?

It took me awhile but I thought of it, and it also closes a plot issue.
Maul is like a hunter, animalistic. What if his power is a heightened clairvoyance, sort of like a carnivore’s sense of smell? It closes the plot hole of how the Sith got a trace of the Queen’s ship if Obi-Wan prevented them from making any contact.
It’d require removal of “If the trace is correct”, as well as some sort of visual indicating that he uses the Force to discover the location.
I can’t momentarily think of how this power could create any new plot holes. I’d need to mull it over a bit more.

Servii said:

RotJ is the movie that really elevated Luke from a good character to a great one. It’s why I don’t abide people claiming that Luke is generic or uninteresting. Luke is great because he doesn’t fit the stereotypical image of the knight or warrior. He’s reserved and soft spoken, and conquers the villain through compassion, not force. He is what a knight would be in an ideal world.

Absolutely. His scenes with Vader perfectly highlight the contrast between an ideal masculine knight and a toxically-masculine one.

Luke is calm with a firm, compassionate heart. He is secure, giving in his care for others, despite the loss he’s experienced in his life. We see this in his mission to save Han. He pauses his own training for his friend. He trusts his friends with the mission on Endor and is prepared to die on DSII. The love he has for his friends is enough.
Vader is cold with a ruthless furnace heart. He is possessive and, ultimately, insecure. As such, he uses power to compensate. His wrath extends to his own men and he even attempts to turn his children into servants for his own selfish conquests.

Luke is defensive (except when he indulges into the dark side, as he still has his own internal conflict), Vader is aggressive.
Still, Luke is prone to the same rage his father is, and going cold as a defense mechanism from pain. This is one of the ways Vader being Luke’s father retroactively makes ANH better. Luke inherited that cold reaction to his the death of his uncle and aunt and Biggs from his father. Even when mourning Obi-Wan, his reaction is still rather subdued.

But Luke is ultimately able to reach the sensitive man locked within Vader’s mask through his own mastery of his emotions. Also because he’s his son, the son of his long-dead wife who still has unconditional love for his father. The same unconditional love his wife had for him, but he wasn’t able to let go of his selfishness. And while Vader exhibits the same possessive tendencies over Luke in ESB and most of ROTJ, he eventually chooses to be selfless when he can’t stand to watch his son about to die just to save him, a monster.

In their final scene together, Luke and Anakin are both more concerned about each other then themselves. Anakin’s son was able to pacify his flame and melt his armor, bring out the compassionate side of him, that Luke also inherited, but mastered far sooner.

I don’t think a Jedi should be a hippie pacifist; after all, Luke still fights all of Jabba’s minions, when he’s forced to. They fight to defend others first and themselves second. But, as Obi-Wan put it, “There are alternatives to fighting.”

I will never not be so impressed with Mark Hamill’s acting, especially in the third act. He is so convincing in portraying Luke’s zen determination, but always reminds us with subtle micro expressions that Luke is still afraid, deep down.

I think that’s important. Luke not emotionless, but he’s (almost) mastered the art of regulating his emotions. He uses his compassion for his father to attempt to reach him, but doesn’t lose control until Vader threatens his sister. When he falters, lashes out in rage, he then stops, reflects, and let’s go. Being a Jedi is about being in balance with your emotions, and Luke captures that so perfectly.

It’s hard to think of anyone else who would put themselves on the line to save an abusive father who tortured and killed people he cared about, all because he knows of the conflict that his father represses. That’s a hero.

Spartacus01 said:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think that your argument is not logical. In my opinion, it is influenced more by your strong attachment to Vader as a character, and by the fact that you want him to always be portrayed as cool and badass, rather than by a rational analysis of the broader narrative and character development that the story is trying to achieve.

I feel like my viewpoint has been overly simplified, though I don’t think you did it on purpose. I earnestly love Darth Vader as a villain, not someone to be idolized, and part of that is the character’s distinct, contrasting layers.
I will submit, I wasn’t being rational when I wrote that initial message.

I never wanted Anakin or Vader to always be badass, or his internal conflict to not be explored. I am attached to Darth Vader being an awesome villain. But it’s not just that. Otherwise that high would’ve wore off a bit ago (I have ADHD and therefore am prone to addiction-like hyper fixations; however, I’ve loved Vader for years).
I adore ROTJ and the scenes of Vader showing vulnerability. I could not imagine Vader not being a father. “I am your father” is the greatest twist of all-time, and elevated the OT ten-fold. Both Luke and Vader as characters.
I would not love Vader as much if not for that duality between the monster and the man beneath. Both badass and pathetic. Menacing and sympathetic.

I like Vader still being powerful despite the suit because yeah, I love his menacing presence. But I also like how Vader being powerful but miserable deep down emphasizes that contrast. Star Wars is about love vs. greed. What does it say that the most powerful being in the galaxy is also miserable? That Luke gains happiness because he chooses compassion over power-hunger? That’s an impactful message for a young man like myself.
He’s still punished. He still loses everything and got burned.

In discussing the character’s emotional portrayal, we have to distinguish Anakin and Vader.

Anakin in fact should be expressive, but also have a tendency to repress his emotions in distress, forming a cold persona. This doesn’t mean he can never fly off the handle either. He goes cold because he cares too much.
As I’ve noted, this is shown in the OT. Vader regresses into his cold persona immediately after he admits something vulnerable or Luke says something that gets to him. In Anakin’s death scene, now having abandoned the dark side, we see he is very caring and sentimental.

Vader, mostly, is cold, fueled by a tranquil rage. He’s an imposing villain that I enjoy on a primal level.
There’s vulnerable moments before his redemption, but they’re sparing, yet more impactful because of that.
That’s important to his character. Vader is a tyrannical egomaniac who shuts out his emotions because he never wants to feel pain again.

Just as much as his vulnerabilities enhance the character, they enhance his villainy. It’s petrifying to realize that a person who was even once a noble hero could become that robotic monster, and adds depth to both Luke and Vader.
Evil is not beyond us. Part of Luke’s emotional journey is realizing that he could become just like his father.
It’s also impactful to see such a monster of a man redeem himself. It’s never too late.

My issues with the Prequels is that they too often handle his vulnerabilities in an almost infantile way. Way less often then OT Luke. It works for him because it’s less consuming.
When Anakin flies off the handle, it’s less of an adult anger and more amateur and teenage. A 23 year old man should not be yelling “It’s not fair!” in the childish manner he does.
Compare Vader angrily commanding his troops in ANH to that scene. It’s just not the same.
While you can argue it’s because he’s young for 2/3 of the trilogy, that’s one of it’s fundamental flaws of the trilogy IMO.

Anakin’s journey should parallel Luke’s better. Similar, but they should also fundamentally contrast one-another.
He should’ve been 19 in TPM, his mother dying in that film. Unlike Luke, where his uncle and aunts deaths inspire him to be a hero to prevent others from feeling that pain, Anakin wants to gain power to prevent himself from feeling that pain again.
Then in AOTC, we can parallel Luke in that now he’s an established general, but also goes on this journey of spiritual discovery, this time leaning on the dark. At the end of the film, when given a choice between selfish and selfless (like Luke’s sacrifice), he chooses selfish.
In ROTS, he’s colder. Not exactly like OT Vader, but more like ROTJ Luke, where he’s calm, but still prone to anger. The crucial difference is that Luke achieves that by actually letting go of his emotions. He in fact allows himself to feel them, but not consume him. Anakin achieves it by repressing them, so he goes cold. Darth Vader is the ultimate culmination of that.

Could any Peter Cushing footage in another movie suffice to add Tarkin to the Prequels even for a cameo as an Admiral, perhaps on Anakin’s battalion? Could one incorporate an idea of him being the one to design Vader’s suit?

I could survey his Frankenstein movies but I’m not really sure if one could use material from it considering he spends the entire time in Victorian era fashion.