G&G-Fan

I love Vader’s arc in ROTJ, I think it was done perfectly. I even rank ROTJ above ANH, personally.

The point of Vader’s “redemption” isn’t that he slowly became a good guy. That side was always there, he just suppressed it constantly. Throughout both ESB and ROTJ he has a soft spot for his son. But he just keeps lying to himself saying that he will kill him if he has to… but he never does. In fact he basically lets Luke beat him, since all of his conflict weakened him so much (Vader was way more powerful and skillful then Luke, but he was crippled by conflict). The point is that it was sudden on purpose because Vader saving Luke is supposed to be something he’s highly contemplative about but eventually gives into his good side. It’s an emotional choice at the conclusion of a long drawn out battle in which Vader is basically being forced into a corner to pick between the Sith and his son, and his good nature is essentially forced to rise again because he just can’t let his son die. And more importantly, it’s that after 23 years of basically being Satan’s right hand, continuously making the wrong choice, he finally did the right thing. The thing he knew to be right from the very beginning but couldn’t muster the strength to do. But in his final act he finally let go of his hatred and pain and chose to show compassion. The entire point is that he was evil right up until he made that decision. He doesn’t technically make up for everything he did because he’s not supposed to. Because he can’t.

"It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, ‘I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I have grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing this because he has faith in me, loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die.’

Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."
-George Lucas

It’s supposed to be sudden and because of that it’s far more impactful to see him finally be selfless again after being a monster for so long. He goes out in a blaze of glory. It also makes it far more impactful for Luke to spare Vader despite the fact that he’s still evil.

Y’know, it kinda just dawned on me, that calling Vader being Luke’s father universe shrinking is actually pretty ridiculous. Luke’s father was already Obi-Wan’s best friend and Vader was his apprentice. They were already close, it was already pretty shrinked. You’re literally just eliminating one single person by making Anakin be Vader, both of which were already close. This is absolutely nothing compared to C-3PO and R2 in the prequels and Chewbacca in ROTS. Like damn, apparently the universe is so much more vast because of one additional person.

This would be like if you were making a movie of my life and decided to combine two of my brothers into the same character or combining my best friend and one of my brothers into one character for a more streamlined screenplay and then calling it universe shrinking, even though it’s just combining two of the 7 billion people in the population together. And with Star Wars it’s trillions in the galaxy. It’s literally nothing. It’d be like combining Plo-Koon and Kit Fisto into one dude. Like damn, really shrinked the universe there.

And considering how much more complex both Vader and Luke’s characters are by having them be father and son respectively and their relationship and the depth it gave to both the trilogy and the saga, it’s by far absolutely worth it.

Also: making Vader Luke’s father helped Luke’s character just as much as Vader’s. Vader was given a whole new layer of depth (being more then just cold-hearted monstrous bad guy, also being turned into a man who has fallen, who was once good but became a monster) while Luke was forced to face the fact that his father wasn’t who he thought he was, overcome his hatred for him and instead choose to love him, choose to confront his inner demons and fear that he’ll become just like his father, and also be a Jedi independently of his father. Originally Luke only wanted to become a Jedi because his father became a Jedi. But Luke finding out Vader is his father makes him become a Jedi for himself and not because he wants to live up to an idealized version of his father. Because him realizing Vader is his father crushed him, because it shattered his illusion that in order to become great he needed to be just like his father. But he’s a Jedi not because of his blood, but because of who he is. Luke thinks he’s destined to become what his father was, and when he found out his father became evil, he fears he will too. But Luke grows beyond this and becomes his own man rather then just trying to live up to his father, and in the process, redeems his father.

The irony of you saying Vader being Luke’s father makes things too connected by family is that Luke’s arc after realizing Vader is his father is about him choosing to be his own man and not just follow in the footsteps of his father. That he’s more then just his blood. He becomes a Jedi despite his blood, not because of it. Just having him want to be a Jedi just because of his father is shallow.

What’s hilarious about your comparison to the original Godzilla is that the original Godzilla has a shit ton of universe shrinkage. Dr. Serizawa, Emiko, Ogata, and Dr. Yamane, the four most important people in all of Japan, all happen to be tied together through a bunch of convoluted family drama. Emiko just happens to be the daughter of the paleontologist who figures out what Godzilla really is, she just happens to be having an affair with the salvage crewman who finds him in the South Pacific, and she just happens to be engaged to the scientist who invents the super-weapon that ultimately kills him (and is also Yamane’s protegee).

But I guess having characters have meaningful relationships with one another is only bad when Star Wars does it?

BedeHistory731 said:

It also shrinks the universe a little and turns the Skywalkers into the most important family in the galaxy. I don’t like the idea of lineage dictating a character’s power. Luke being a nobody who happens to be the son of a random Jedi and not the son of an all-time powerful Jedi/regional manager of the Empire sounds a bit better to me at the moment. I hate how lineage becomes so important, especially to the fan (and Abrams’) perspective.

Star Wars is supposed to be a family soap opera, according to George Lucas. If you don’t like it, then you just don’t really like Star Wars.

Universe shrinkage isn’t always a bad thing. First of all, it gives a lot more connection to Vader and Luke. Their relationship is basically non-existent without that family element. The family element makes it far more fascinating and the conflict between the characters way deeper. Universe shrinkage allows for far more meaningful relationships among the characters. Second, like I said, too many characters often makes things too complex in a screenplay. Usually the less characters you have, the more depth and development each of them have. Less is more. Which is why most Godzilla movies have shit one-dimensional characters; there’s too many characters that could just be combined to make a more complex and interesting character, but they insist on having one character per character trait (one comic relief character, one leading man, one scientist, one generic female character who’s the only one given permission to emote, etc.) so they’re all one-dimensional. Notice how a lot of beloved franchises have 3 main characters (including both of Lucas’ trilogies: Luke, Han, and Leia, and then Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme). It’s a good number because it’s enough characters to make it so you don’t have enough developed characters to latch on to but not too much so it feels like the movie’s asking you to care about too many people.

Luke was always important because of his family lineage? He’s always trained because he’s the descendent of a powerful Jedi? If that’s not the case then why did Obi-Wan spend so much time with him instead of training a ton of people over the years?

Also, damn it’s almost like things from one family member get passed down to another. Sounds like you didn’t take a lot of science classes cause it seems you know nothing about genetics.

It seems like you’re just infatuated with an idea without realizing that it just works poorly on screen. Having Vader once be the man Obi-Wan described Luke’s father as immediately adds way more depth to his character. Without combining Vader and Anakin they both become a lot less complex and interesting. Since when was the universe feeling vast more important then character depth and the characters having meaningful relationships with one another? Because if you ask me that was never.

BedeHistory731 said:

Perhaps Leia shouldn’t be the child of a Jedi? The brother-sister twist should also be on the chopping block as it really feels half-assed.

You missed the point entirely. That still doesn’t answer why Luke is the only child of any Jedi left around. If Jedi having children is something any normal Jedi would do, why is he the only one? Why doesn’t Obi-Wan or Yoda or any of the other Jedi have any children? You mean to tell me Luke is the only child of any Jedi left in the entire galaxy?

It’s almost like having Anakin be a morally ambiguous character who then turned to the dark side and became Vader because he broke the rules that Jedi shouldn’t get married and have children kinda ties all the loose ends, doesn’t it?

BedeHistory731 said:

IMHO (which could change sooner or later), Star Wars (no A New Hope) is like Gojira. It works well as the start of a series and as a standalone, but it’s best as a standalone. Controversial, I know, but its my take at the moment.

Nah. Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi expand on the themes and the characters. It makes everything a lot more complex and interesting and further develops everybody. Vader would be 1/4 of the amazing character he is without ESB or ROTJ. Vader as we know him know is defined far more by ESB then ANH. I’d even argue Luke would be half of what he is without the two sequels. Luke is made way more complex and layered by ESB and ROTJ then ANH alone. If you just have ANH as a standalone movie his journey isn’t complete. He’s not even a Jedi by the end of the first movie. Meanwhile the rest of the Showa Godzilla series is mostly garbage that immediately shits on the themes of the original (turning Godzilla into a hero justifies the use of nuclear weapons, the thing the original was very much against) and has hardly any character development because they don’t ever maintain the same cast. The sequels don’t continue the journeys of any of the previous characters, they just give us a new cast movie after movie and none of them live up to the original’s cast in the slightest (with a couple of exceptions).

SparkySywer said:

Star Wars 77 is a fantastic movie on its own, but I don’t think it would be as worth remembering without The Empire Strikes Back

Agree. ANH is great but most of what makes Star Wars so beloved and iconic is owed more to ESB then ANH. Especially when it comes to Darth Vader.

BedeHistory731 said:

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

Hahahahahahahahaha no. Star Wars would be half of what it is if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father. ROTJ would go from a beautiful story of how a father redeemed himself to save his son to a cliche, boring “Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and saves the day! Luke gets revenge on the evil bad guy who killed his dad!”. Bleh. Imagine a ROTJ without the bridge scene between Luke and Vader, Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft and Anakin telling Luke he was always right about him. AKA the best parts of ROTJ? Sounds pretty shitty if you ask me. The entire third act of ROTJ basically becomes meaningless. Nothing.

Literally everything would have a lot less emotional depth too, from Luke’s journey to Vader’s character. Vader especially is given a shit ton more depth. It makes their relationship far more interesting and gives them an actual connection beyond just a shallow “I want revenge on you because you killed my dad!”.

And also, just from a simple screenwriting perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just lump Anakin and Vader into the same character. Having Obi-Wan have both a best friend and an apprentice just adds more unnecessary characters, and both characters would just be bland archetypes without lumping them together. Anakin is an interesting character because of the things that lead him to become Darth Vader, remove that and you just have a typical one-dimensional hero character. Anakin’s flaws are what make him work, otherwise he’s bland. What’s the point of having both a best friend character and an apprentice character when you can just combine them, leading to a much more interesting character with a lot more depth? In general, when you have too many characters it becomes harder to develop them all. The prequels already had so many characters to develop, lmao.

It also explains why Luke and Leia are the only children of any Jedi that are around. Because Anakin broke the rules, and this contributed to him becoming Darth Vader.

I don’t see any problem with not wanting to work with your ex. Seems like a natural thing for a human being.

I find it a little ironic that she apparently left George because he wouldn’t stop making movies, but now she thinks it’s unfortunate that she wasn’t brought in to do the prequels.

Still, it would’ve been interesting to see what impact she might’ve had on the prequels.

In what way did she “fix” ROTJ?

I wouldn’t be surprised if he already fixed them himself, since the man is so good he can literally identify the most minute continuity errors.

Darth Malgus said:

Can I have links for these edita?

I’m doing new versions of my prequel trilogy and I kinda already deleted my old ones unfortunately, so you’ll kinda have to wait till then. Sorry.

Vladius said:

I don’t agree with anything in the OP

Neither do I, which is why I just now retracted the statement lmao

EddieDean said:

The problem with that is that Jar Jar also appears in AOTC, ROTS, and TCW, which adds some burden if you’re looking to cover all your bases, and it also means that a viewer of such a TPM edit is left with less choice of fanedits for the other prequel movies.

Ideally you’d have AOTC and ROTS edits that do the same thing.

Just came back here to say that I retract what I said here in this thread. I’ve realized for awhile now that it wasn’t Lucas’ intent to have a character arc for Yoda in the prequels in which he realizes that war is wrong.

Lucas’ intent was to show that the Jedi participating in the war was hindering their values, even if they had no other choice. Yoda, like every Jedi, was put in a tough spot, in which he was forced to fight. It’s not about Yoda learning to be non-violent (he’s the same in the prequels as he is in the OT), but about the Jedi being put in a no-win situation, as elaborated in this brilliant Quora answer.
https://qr.ae/pvuA2y

As George elaborates (in this quote he’s responding to a question asking if the Jedi are like police officers).

GEORGE LUCAS: No. They’re not like cops who catch murderers. They’re warrior-monks who keep peace in the universe without resorting to violence. The Trade Federation is in dispute with Naboo, so the Jedi are ambassadors who talk both sides and convince them to resolve their differences and not go to war. If they do have to use violence, they will, but they are diplomats at the highest level. They’ve got the power to send the whole force of the Republic, which is 100 000 systems, so if you don’t behave they can bring you up in front of the Senate. They’ll cut you off at the knees, politically.

They’re like police officers. As the situation develops in the Clone Wars they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They’re not generals. They don’t kill people. They don’t fight. They’re supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should never have been in the military, but…

PAUL DUNCAN: Do you think that?

GEORGE LUCAS: It’s a tough call. It’s one of the conundrums of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated which was their downfall.

I think it’d be great to have an edit that just has the gungans speak in an alien language instead. Their speech is just so annoying and hard to understand. And besides when you have them have an alien language and then subtitle them you can make them say whatever you want.

Bruh Aliens is a masterpiece wtf

image isn’t working for me

It’s better the way it is. A whole nother trilogy would’ve stretched the story too thin. Return of the Jedi was a perfect ending to tie all the loose ends.

I find Dow Koo to be cheesy. Dooku is just fine.

That’s literally what I wanted to happen in this show before it was released though. I wanted a scene of Vader killing Jedi, I wanted Vader to think he was dead, etc.

enderdrag64 said:

What were some of these inaccuracies? Just curious

This pretty much explains it (I have it time coded to where it talks about Hirch’s book)

https://youtu.be/olqVGz6mOVE?t=6654

idir_hh said:

Some very interesting tidbits about Darth Vader’s Original Role in Obi-Wan Kenobi

https://thedirect.com/article/obi-wan-kenobi-darth-vader-final-battle-exclusive

Why does this sound so much better then what we got?

“My film began with Vader taking on five Jedi at once and killing all of them, you know, so it established that he is the big Jedi killer. The Inquisitors are capturing them, but Vader is the big daddy who comes in and just lays waste to any Jedi all while hunting Kenobi.”

Bruh why the fuck did they get rid of this guy this is literally everything I’ve ever wanted. Vader fighting and killing five Jedi? FUCK YES!!!

“In mine, Vader won the fight. They were fighting on this space station. It was falling apart in the atmosphere of this big planet and Obi-Wan basically fell off. Vader pushed him off and they separated. They didn’t get the chance to find Obi-Wan, basically. But what was going through Obi-Wan’s mind is the same thing which is, ‘My brother is truly dead. He’s gone. And while I absolve of that guilt because I didn’t kill him, Vader killed him, I’m still just devastated. I’m absolutely devastated.’”

“In mine, he really did believe that Kenobi was dead at the end, which was the thing that allowed him to finally let Kenobi go and focus on ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. Because it always seemed that in [A New Hope] he was shocked when he was like ‘I sense something, a presence I’ve not felt since…’ Why do you stop talking to yourself? It’s because you’re that shocked, you know?”

This makes so much more sense why didn’t they go with this?!

Yoda wasn’t able to deflect Sidious’ because his force lightning is more powerful. You can see Sidious’ is more purple while Dooku’s is a light blue. His lightning is also thicker.

adywan said:

FFS, nowhere did i say that Marcia put the footage back in and George didn’t notice and not once did i credit marcia with the force. I just watched the doc again and it’s not actually Marcia that says george Started taking some mentions of the force out of the movie, most notably when Han tells Luke " May the force be with you" in the Yavin hangar, it’s Howard Kazanjian. Marcia says that when she saw the next screening , she noticed he had cut the force out in a couple of places, and then its said by Howard that she added these cuts back in. George got cold feet and worried after what his friend, who he respected, had told him after the screening. He had a wobble, nothing more. It’s not some great conspiracy theory against George. He respected Marcia’s opinion on things. He listened. They were a great team.

And using "Ancient Aliens " as an example of inaccurate docs? Really?

I didn’t bother with Paul’s book because of the amount of inaccuracies in it. Things that were widely know through various multiple sources and not just from one man.

You know full well George has changed his story throughout the years on the making of these films that contradict what actual proof we have an also from multiple accounts from the people who worked on the films, but you seem to only want to believe things that come out of George’s mouth and consider anyone’s accounts that don’t tow the "George " line as nothing more than people wanting to take credit for George’s work and from bitter people.

I’m done with this argument. I don’t see why you felt the need to be so rude toward what i said when i was just repeating what was relayed in this documentary episode. But you kind of proved my original jokey point when i said that Lucas Worshipers wouldn’t be happy with this doc. I only talk about one small section of the second episode and you blow up toward me for no reason.

Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok, that makes a lot more sense. I apologize, truly. The way you worded it saying she added it “behind Lucas’ back” made me think that was the implication. But it was wrong of me to jump on you like that.

I don’t think George Lucas is perfect. The prequels have their flaws and I do understand that it wasn’t all him that made the original trilogy. Richard, Marcia and Paul contributed a great deal (even if Paul hyped himself up to a ridiculous degree). But I also think people shouldn’t attack George by saying things that imply that A New Hope or the original trilogy in general being good had nothing to do with him, that Star Wars was garbage until it was edited by his wife. Whether you like the prequels or not, he was an integral part to the original trilogy.

adywan said:

How is it an anti Lucas conspiracy theory when it comes direct from the mouth of Marcia Lucas. You know, the person who was married to him and actually worked on the film as an editor? God, Lucas worshippers really don’t like facts that go against him being some sort of infallible god, do they. 😉

I’m sorry that you don’t like the fact that i posted about a section that is in a documentary. I didn’t even post anything other than what is mentioned in this documentary, yet you felt it necessary to reply to what i wrote like that? Jeez

Because you know it’s impossible for people to lie. Or for documentaries to be faulty. As shown with one of the most beautiful, informative, and factual documentaries of all time, Ancient Aliens.

You do realize Paul Hersch literally wrote a book basically saying crediting himself for every important editing choice even contradicting a ton of other people’s accounts (even taking credit for things that were supposedly Marcia)? But nooooooooooooooooooo, Hersch said it, so it’s fact. It’s almost like it makes sense that someone who was involved with an incredibly popular movie would want to claim that many iconic things came from them even if it’s not true. They want the credit for themselves. It’s almost like it also makes sense for someone to be bitter towards their ex who chose movies over them.

You say it out loud and it sounds ridiculous. It doesn’t make any sense. First of all Lucas was very passionate about the force as a concept. DePalma just criticized anything that wasn’t realistic (also having said “Where’s the blood when they shoot people?”) so of course George didn’t listen to him. Otherwise why wasn’t he scrambling to add blood to all the shooting scenes? And second, how tf could she add things back he deleted behind his back without him knowing? Like what, when Lucas saw it in theaters was he like “OMG who added the references to the force back?! What happened?! Oh no how did my movie end up this way?!”. How would that even be possible? He would’ve watched it several times before it released, and he would make sure everything was according to how he wanted it. He was an editor for the film himself. He supervised the editing for the film every step of the way. You can’t say, “If George wanted Greedo to shoot first he would’ve done it then” only to say “George accidentally let his wife keep something in the movie that he wanted out and it somehow got into theaters and that’s how we got the force”. That makes no sense whatsoever. If George didn’t want it in the movie it wouldn’t have ended up in theaters.

It makes no sense if you think about it for three seconds, but sure, credit Marcia Lucas for the force instead of George.

adywan said:

It’s been interesting hearing just how much influence Marcia had on this film, finally. The fact that George let De Palmas comments about the force get to him and George started re-cutting the film to eliminate much of the force , with marcia going behind his back and adding them all back in. George worshippers won’t be happy with this doc though.

I think this takes the cake for the most ridiculous, laughable, and unbelievably stupid anti-Lucas conspiracy theory I’ve ever heard in my life

I liked how Dooku’s use of force lightning is contrasted with Sidious’. When Dooku uses force lightning against Yoda, he deflects it easily. When Sidious uses it, it sends him flying, and when he is finally able to block it, it takes a lot of strength to do. It’s a great way of showing how Sidious is superior to his (then former) apprentice.

When viewing it in chronological order, Dooku being the first one to be seen using force lightning is to show the audience that he has gained new powers due to joining the dark side. Then in ROTS, we see Sidious has a far more powerful version of the same attack.