G&G-Fan

Phase3 said:

I posted this in NFBism’s thread, but also wanted to get other people’s thought on this:

How about an alternate ending to the show?
I was thinking about the following:
During the second duel between Obi-Wan and Vader, instead of Obi-Wan walking away, getting into his starship and going to Tatooine, what if it’s Vader leaving Obi-Wan for dead, and leaving the planet first?

In ROTS, Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead on Mustafar. How about Vader now does the same to Obi-Wan?
It could be carefully edited like this:

Vader’s helmet is sliced open /
“Goodbye, Darth” /
Delete the extra shots of Vader walking slowly with no dialogue /
Vader kneels down and yells “Obi-Wan!” /
Use the shot of Vader’s hand slamming into the ground /
Flipped shot of the ground breaking, so that it matches correctly with where Obi-Wan is & where the camera angle should be /
Obi-Wan falls /
Rocks fall down on top of him straight away - no further input from Vader - no need for him to be standing at the edge /
Relocate audio used earlier for the overhead shot of Vader “Did you truly think that you could defeat me? You have failed” /
As Vader speaks, do a slow, steady zoom-in on Vader, so it’s a bit different to what was shown in the episode /
Vader leaves the planet (would need to find a good shot of Vader’s shuttle flying in space) /
Obi-Wan has the visions of Luke and Leia, inspiring him to go on / Obi-Wan frees himself, leaves the planet, and goes into hyperspace (no visions of Luke whilst in the starship, to accommodate the removal of the awful Tatooine sequences in the sixth episode).

What do you all think?

This is perfect.

Phase3 said:

I posted this in NFBism’s thread, but also wanted to get other people’s thought on this:

How about an alternate ending to the show?
I was thinking about the following:
During the second duel between Obi-Wan and Vader, instead of Obi-Wan walking away, getting into his starship and going to Tatooine, what if it’s Vader leaving Obi-Wan for dead, and leaving the planet first?

In ROTS, Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead on Mustafar. How about Vader now does the same to Obi-Wan?
It could be carefully edited like this:

Vader’s helmet is sliced open /
“Goodbye, Darth” /
Delete the extra shots of Vader walking slowly with no dialogue /
Vader kneels down and yells “Obi-Wan!” /
Use the shot of Vader’s hand slamming into the ground /
Flipped shot of the ground breaking, so that it matches correctly with where Obi-Wan is & where the camera angle should be /
Obi-Wan falls /
Rocks fall down on top of him straight away - no further input from Vader - no need for him to be standing at the edge /
Relocate audio used earlier for the overhead shot of Vader “Did you truly think that you could defeat me? You have failed” /
As Vader speaks, do a slow, steady zoom-in on Vader, so it’s a bit different to what was shown in the episode /
Vader leaves the planet (would need to find a good shot of Vader’s shuttle flying in space) /
Obi-Wan has the visions of Luke and Leia, inspiring him to go on / Obi-Wan frees himself, leaves the planet, and goes into hyperspace (no visions of Luke whilst in the starship, to accommodate the removal of the awful Tatooine sequences in the sixth episode).

What do you all think?

This is perfect.

In ROTS, Anakin also has a vision of himself burning on Mustafar. From here, the audience will be able to tell he doesn’t want to cheat death just to save Padme, but also himself.

I’ve recently come to really like this idea of Anakin craving immortality, especially since it creates a retroactive arc with Vader accepting his death in ROTJ.

Like a lot of people are saying the new episode is really great. I think some fan-editing could allow us to edit earlier episodes to integrate set-up. Like putting Moff Gideon’s meeting in an earlier episode.

Channel72 said:

All I can say is that your explanation (essentially saying Vader had no reason to flip out once he settled into his role as a powerful Sith) doesn’t really help make Anakin and Vader seem like the same person to me. I mean ultimately this is subjective, but I just can’t really picture Darth Vader saying a lot of the stuff Anakin says with the cadence or wording that Anakin uses. As one example, I can’t imagine Vader saying “Liar!! You’re with him! You brought him here to kill me!” Instead, Vader would just say “You have betrayed me. You have brought Obi Wan to kill me.”, while pointing his finger in Padme’s face.

Exactly, and this is my issue. I watched the saga 1-6 in chronological order. And connecting the two required so much suspension of disbelief I gave up. It’s such a radical change in characterization that there needed to be on-screen development showing him going from that emotional mess to the cold collected mask from the OT. But there isn’t. Either that, or just have OT Vader be the dark half of his personality from the get-go.

Archivist99 said:

He was a slave, but he was the only child of an exemplary mother. There is a warmth there (and part of losing that warmth at 9 is what goes wrong). Michael was the youngest (?) child of a crime lord.

A slave’s life is still far worse. Especially considering Vito was extremely good at separating his business from his family. Michael may have grew up around Mafia men but his father (and mother) was still very warm.

Anakin doesn’t act tough by repressing as much as by having a standoffish/confident quality, which is well needed given the people he hangs around. Sebulba, Watto, various scumbags like that. He’s not going to be “reserved”, he is going to puff out his chest. Michael by contrast, could lay low and observe in the shadow of privilege. He’s reserved because he can afford to be.

He can’t be both? Vader was very much both reserved and confident. So was Michael. Anakin should be the same way.

“Supposed to”, according to who? He represses certain destructive instincts, but when it comes to communicating, again, he is very forward.

George Lucas. A part of Anakin’s character is that he refuses to admit to his own feelings.
https://david-talks-sw.tumblr.com/post/692126625024835584/going-over-anakin-the-council
https://qr.ae/pGDxQt

But if he is already like Vader before the turn it is a boring, predictable story that doesn’t involve interesting character change. What you are suggesting is what JJ Abrams would have done. Basically the cliche Clone Wars version of Anakin, except nastier.

What I actually said was that the Vader persona would be a part of Anakin, but he mostly keeps it at bay, before it gradually consumes him. He starts out his Clone Wars/Battle of Coruscant self and descends from there.

Also, the arc you’re suggesting, an emotional wreck becoming a cold machine, isn’t what ends up happening. Anakin starts a nice kid, becomes an emotional mess, and then we have to infer 20 years of character development before he becomes the cold calculating Vader.

Plus, as I said, I do not agree that Michael even is what you are describing. He is a short, quiet man who occasionally gets coldly angry. All those other things you described are not within him the same way they are within Vader.

Michael is everything I described.

Cold and collected I don’t need to explain. Calculating, he orchestrated the plan to kill McClusky and Solozzo, the deaths of the heads of the 5 families, getting Geary in his pocket, and everything with Roth. Ruthless, he coldly kills Carlo and Fredo despite being family. Confident and authoritative, just look at his scene with Carlo or Senator Geary. He’s possessive of Kay and his children in Part 2. And he’s vengeful. He can’t forgive Fredo, can’t let Roth go either (despite there being no real reason to kill him), and can’t forgive his wife when he shuts the door in her face.

He does all the things that he does not out of an embrace of power and conquest for the nebulous reasons given to Vader in the OT, but out of a loyalty to his father that congeals into a thirst for power, but it never goes as far as Vader and the characters are just too psychologically different. Michael isn’t shooting his commanders in the meeting room then cracking wise about it.

I clearly meant that the character’s personalities and demeanor’s resemble each other, not that they do things for the same reason or are exactly alike. But I will argue that Vader is motivated by a thirst for power and vengeance.

I clearly used Michael as an example of a character that’s colder and more emotionally reserved. He has many character traits like Vader, but he’s not exactly the same, and I don’t expect Anakin to be exactly like Michael either.

Michael doesn’t kill his commanders in a meeting room and crack wise about it, but he’ll have his button men choke Carlo to death. And his own men, if they’re traitors.

Anakin’s story is the story of a broken child who turns into a deranged serial killer who acts more machine than man.

Broken child? He goes “Yippee!”.

Michael’s story is the quiet, straight-laced child of a crime family decides to take the path of revenge and becomes more cold and heartless in the name of “the family”. Michael loses much less of his soul than Anakin, hell he still talks to his ex wife and has a somewhat quasi normal (compared to Vader) relationship with his larger family at Vader’s age.
No potential prequel trilogy fits this. Even if you made Anakin more like what you are describing, he would still be a huge hulking man compared to Michael, and who is much more overtly mean spirited than Michael.

Again, I meant they should be more similar in personality. Not that Anakin should do less bad things. But Anakin becoming Vader by deciding to take the path of revenge (as well as a lust for power) and become more cold and heartless is absolutely a great arc for Anakin to become Vader.

Also, Anakin succumbs to the dark side to save Padme, who you could call his family, so another similarity there.

Regardless, the idea of Anakin slowly succumbing to the dark side’s power to learn the power to cheat death, thus becoming colder in the process, is absolutely the right kind of arc for Anakin and does have resemblances to Michael’s arc. Walter White’s as well. And it should’ve taken more cues from Michael’s in terms of structure, being a slow descent, instead of rushing it (and Walt’s too, but Lucas can’t see in the future).

I think the story wouldn’t work nearly as well, no. As I said, Luke’s struggles are lesser due to his story not being about turning into Darth Vader. Also Luke being so high ranking in ESB never made sense to me. The opening crawl of that movie says he is in command of Echo base, for god’s sake.

In the version I described Anakin doesn’t have any lesser struggles then the prequels that were made. In fact I’d argue being a slave for the first 19 years of your life would be worse then the first 9.

Because 3 years have passed and Luke’s had time to become more experienced?

That’s exactly what happens.

I meant gradually, throughout the trilogy. Also, this was in response to him not making jokes asserting his dominance like Vader, which he never does. He doesn’t have to wait to become a full-blown Sith to say something like, “We would be honored, if you would join us.”

Yeah but how did he overcome his recklessness? He didn’t go back to Yoda, he seemingly didn’t talk to Ben, and Yoda predicted that Luke going to Bespin would be bad for Luke, not lead to character growth. Luke in RotJ is approaching Qui Gon levels of Zen, whereas in ESB he’s still basically a farm boy who went off to war.

Not going back to Yoda isn’t recklessness, it’s loyalty to his friend Han. He literally goes to see Yoda right after.

His “Qui-Gon levels of Zen” is what I meant when I said he overcame his recklessness. He comes up with a calculated plan to rescue Han rather then rushing in. He isn’t perfect and still makes mistakes, but he’s improved.

In ANH he’s a farm boy that went to war, but again, 3 years have past by ESB, he’s had time to become more experienced.

That’s my point though. It would if he didn’t have such stable surroundings. Heck, he would have killed Motti (?) if Tarkin hadn’t stepped in.

Vader comes across to me as someone who’s smart enough to restrain himself when he moment calls for it.

What, he definitely considers it. When Palp says his whole “I know we can discover the secret” thing, you can see on Anakin’s face that he loses even more hope.

Why would you go through with such a shitty deal then?

Archivist99 said:

I just don’t agree. Blowing up a planet is more what you are describing, evil but calculated. As for the board room scene, I disagree. Those guys seem like some of the biggest guys in the Empire, given the discussion. Vader personally might have no use for Motti, but Tarkin clearly does.

Vader is second in-command. Literally the only person that supersedes him in rank is the Emperor.

Micheal Corleone also had a very different childhood. Anakin was the slave son of a single mother, Michael was the child of a powerful family. Your idea of Anakin being like Michael Corleone doesn’t really jive with anything i’d want for the character. Also, Corleone isn’t really anything like what you seem like you wish Anakin was, either. I haven’t seen those movies in a while, but Michael doesn’t really have the Vader traits that you have mentioned before, other than being less hair trigger than Anakin in the films.

Anakin’s past was worse then Michael’s, therefore he has more of a reason to have a colder, hardened personality. He was a slave. He represses his emotions because he has to look tough to hide the fact that on the inside he’s an emotional mess.

That’s the thing that’s so weird to me. Anakin’s supposed to be this guy that represses his emotions, but instead he’ll go on long emotional rants to the first person who will listen. His second conversation with Padme he’s ranting about Obi-Wan when she didn’t even ask.

Also Michael was in the military and was desensitized to his family’s business since he grew up around them, which is part of why he’s so cold.

Michael Corleone is so much like Darth Vader it’s crazy. He’s cold, collected, calculating, ruthless, reserved, confident, authoritative, possessive, and loves revenge and getting back at people he hates. And his anger is a lot like Vader’s. Michael does lose his cool sometimes, but it’s in a lot of the same way Vader would: short bursts. He will yell when he’s extremely stressed, like at Tom Hagen when he finds out about the “miscarriage”. Or when he yells about the ambush on his home to Pentangeli. A lot like Vader barking at his troops in the beginning of ANH.

I also would not change Anakin’s ages in the films. The story is about Anakin’s insecurities being the cause of his issues. Luke’s struggles were lesser by design as the story isn’t about Luke turning evil.

You can’t have Anakin be a 19 year old slave who’s mom dies? Then a 22 year old Jedi Knight at the beginning of the second movie (Luke was already a great high ranking rebel soldier at the beginning of ESB) who then descends towards the dark side slowly?

You’re acting like Anakin has to be young to have the same insecurities.

That isn’t who he tries to be though. “I want more, but I know I shouldn’t”. That side of himself only truly comes out once he stops trying to fight it. He’s arrogant, but he is also aware that a lot of his thoughts are problematic and tries to rise above them. Until he doesn’t.

That’s a good element of the character, but we should see him giving into that more, even if he feels guilty. That need to be dominant and have power should become greater and greater as he loses himself more and more.

It’s less drastic than Luke between 5 and 6 honestly.

Nah, because Luke is still a pretty collected guy capable of leading troops at the beginning of ESB. He just has to overcome his recklessness. And he has at the beginning of ROTJ, but not entirely. He still gets himself stuck in the Rancor pit and lashes out at Vader.

It might seem like he’s completely transformed when he first appears but as time goes on it’s pretty obvious he’s still the same guy.

Because of the rule of two, as well as the fact that Sidious who is rather exceptional as a Sith who is very much a long term planner, allowed Vader to flourish in a locked down galaxy that is perfect for a violent broken man like Vader.

Regardless, Vader’s anger never gets in the way of the job. Even in ESB when he kills two officers, there’s always someone to take their place.

Of course, and that’s part of the horrible situation that Anakin finds himself in. But he already sold out Palp to the Jedi and tried to do the right thing once. He makes his choice in the scene in the council chambers to side with Palp rather than do the right thing for the second time.

The net loss is far too great if it turns out Plagueis’ secret isn’t real. Anakin doesn’t consider that if he commits genocide and even kills his best buddy Obi-Wan, only for Plagueis’ secret to either be lost or not even exist, then there was literally no point to anything.

Archivist99 said:

IMO, Tarkin wouldn’t do that, those Vader moments were hot headed (the gus comparison is different, Gus was trying to frighten his enemies in a setting where they had no status, Vader is basically throwing a punch in a CEO earnings report). Plus, part of what you’re describing, even if I agreed with it, would just be age. a 19/22 year old isn’t going to be as level headed as a 45 year old.

I could. Tarkin blows up a planet.
Vader is far above Motti in rank. Vader had more power in that scene then Gus. Gus needed Walter to cook. Vader needs Motti for nothing. He’s a fodder officer.
And once again the point of the scene was that Vader was trying to intimidate Motti by showcasing his power.

Michael Corleone was 25 in Part 1. It’s not unreasonable for someone to be cold when they’re that young. I’ll forever maintain that one of the biggest mistakes of the prequels was Anakin being so young for 2/3 of it. His age in the three movies should’ve been the same as Luke’s respectively.

I say patience was indeed a joke, self deprecating humor about the fact that he is usually the impatient one. Pre dark side, I don’t see why Anakin’s humor would be obnoxiously dominance based.

Because that’s who he is as a person? He loves being dominant and in control. Superiority complex and all.

Is headcanon out of the norm for this series though? Every movie in it jumps years ahead and has us infer character change.

Well yeah, but there’s a certain degree to which it’s believable.

The Sith usually don’t get very far, that’s what the rule of two is for, trying to cope with the problem of them all killing each other all the time.

Vader and Palpatine did.

Palpatine’s words could be lies, but at this point Anakin trusts the man, and his story aligns with how the Sith crave power and never “let go” like the Jedi do. And once Palp reveals himself as a Sith, it follows that even if he doesn’t know that power, he surely craves it.

Good point about Palpatine craving it too. But whether he craves it is different from whether the power actually exists and whether the dark side is a path to it.

Archivist99 said:

I just watched the arm scene. It wasn’t primarily calculating IMO. He was going to end the battle before, then Luke gets in a good hit, then Vader has an incoherent yell of rage and cuts his hand off.

Yes, he uses his anger. For a calculated act to end the conflict with Luke. That’s what I mean, he wields his anger like a blunt weapon.

And while the choking of an officer might be making a point, it is still quite hotheaded. Imagine if Tarkin choked out that same guy if that guy called him frail or something in a meeting.

The guy was insulting his power in the force and so he showed it to him.

Also I could totally imagine Tarkin doing that.

Villains attack their underlings to show their strength all the time. Like Gus killing Victor in Breaking Bad. Gus may be mad but he remains collected and cold.

And that’s the difference. They use their anger with cunning in a way that always furthers their interests.

Well I think the thing is, the dry wit that he displays in the PT would only congeal into the nastiness of Vader after he gives himself to the dark. I think of moments like “If you’ll excuse me!” or “I say patience.” as the kind of humor that would become nastier in Vader.

“I say patience” was not a joke.

You make a fair point about his sense of humor. I think the disconnect comes from the fact that he never jokes in a way that asserts dominance over another person. “We would be honored, if you would join us.” is such an awesome and funny line because he’s dryly lording over Han, gloating that he has them trapped. It’s such a great showcase of his wit.

The mature Vader persona of the OT isn’t yet complete in the PT, we are left to fill in the gap from freshly traumatized ex Jedi to comfortable middle aged Sith lord. Which i’m fine with, but I think some fans are not. This is also why I think the volatile, “whiny” nature of his PT character isn’t incongruent, Vader in the OT and the Sith in general are basically what happens when you just let your worst, immature impulses take the wheel. Don’t like this underling? Kill him. Don’t like Obi Wan reminding you of the past? Kill him. Don’t like the Rebels pooping on your party? Kill them all.

That’s the issue. The audience is forced to head canon 20 years of character development instead of just having Anakin be more like Vader.

I don’t even mind a younger Vader being a bit more emotional. He is that way in the 2017 Marvel comics by Charles Soule and I love his characterization in that series. But he’s still mostly cold and never explodes.

I agree that the Sith are about giving into their worst impulses, but if they constantly let their anger overcome them and stab themselves in the foot they wouldn’t get very far.

People say this, but I disagree. Going off that scene, Anakin clearly has a pretty clear understanding of the Sith ideology (as taught by the Jedi at least). If the Jedi are about letting go, the Sith are about holding on, so holding onto your life in perpetuity seems like something a Sith would attempt.

That should’ve been explored in the movie itself. We know the Sith attempted to cheat death from EU novels but not the film. And I’m talking about something other then Palpatine’s words which for all we know could be lies. Maybe Anakin even finds a Sith holocron Plagueis created that teaches the power but he can’t open it until he indulges enough in the dark side. So he opens others and learns the ways of the dark side, gradually being seduced by it’s power.

Archivist99 said:

But mostly I’ve read this thread and just want to comment that I think that Anakin as a character was one of the very best parts, and that he has a lot more in common with Vader than some people here are saying. Vader wasn’t a hothead? In the OT, he chokes people in a board meeting, flies off the handle and amputates his own son after said son scores a good hit, etc.

Vader gets mad, but he never flies off the handle. He wields his anger like a blunt weapon. Vader chokes an officer to make a point. Amputating his son was a very calculating move to end the conflict swiftly.

He’s like Michael Corleone in this sense. He’s collected confronting Carlo at the end of Part 1 despite saying he’s “very angry”. He loses his composure when he slaps Kay in Part 2, but only after a barrage of insults, and doesn’t go any further then yelling at her twice. He’s a whole different case from someone like Sonny.

Anakin also has plenty of dry humor in the prequels.

I can think of a couple times, sure, but nothing to the degree of, “Apology accepted, Captain Needa”, or “We would be honored if you would join us”.

He’s bold, very bold. Look at the fireplace scene. Look at him in battle. Bold in words and actions.

I’ll give you this.

He’s also very developing a domineering and presenceful (word?) aspect post youngling slaughter when he talks to Padme (which makes sense as the dark side is starting to rule him).

That’s a fair point. But it’s one of the few scenes in which he acts like Vader.

The others are

1. Talking to Watto
2. When Padme asks him to tell Palpatine to end the war
3. After being knighted Vader.
4. Landing on Mustafar and killing the Separatists.
5. His talk with Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar (I actually think him force choking Padme is perfectly acceptable and in-character for a young Vader).

But the issue is, this should be a huge part of his persona, but it’s in a handful of scenes. IMO, Anakin should be this person that, when afraid, angry, or vulnerable, always resorts to his cold Vader persona. Most of the other times he has his “Vader” moments he always comes across as whiny. It also doesn’t help that his last scene is, “Noooooooo!”.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that he actually does come across like a young Vader if you just cut a lot of his whiny rants and explosive moments. I think that’s what really betrays him the most. Like, if you cut the “I killed them all” scene, his reaction to his mother’s death seems Vader. Especially that hard stare when he arrives home.

He’s also much smarter than people give him credit for (but that could be a whole nother post).

He’s smart until he believes Palpatine about saving people from dying.

But my main thing about Anakin in the PT and Vader in the OT is that to me, Vader in RotJ feels more like Hayden than the preceding two films. I think Lucas had nailed down more of the man behind the mask for that film (since the mask was coming off, literally and metaphorically).

He’s a bit softer in the third act (tho he resorts to his cold persona whenever things get too tender until he kills the Emperor) in a way that does feel like Hayden when he’s, say, saying goodbye to Obi-Wan.

Also, I’m mostly responding to a post a few pages back, the quote function was giving me trouble.

You can copy and past the quotes from other reply drafts and put them all on one.

Channel72 said:

I think you mean Don Plagueis the Wiseguy.

But the best is definitely when Michael Corleone and Hyman Roth fight to the death in a lava-filled casino. Fortunately, Roth loses the high ground and then doesn’t live to see the New Year.

Man that was so epic.

“It’s over Roth, I have the high ground!”
“You underestimate my offer!”

“You were the chosen one! You were supposed to close the deal not destroy it! Bring balance to the casinos, not leave them in darkness!”

Man my favorite moment in The Godfather is when Michael becomes the Don because Vito tells him, “The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise”, absolute peak cinema.

It’s up there with when Walt told it to Jesse to get him to rejoin the meth business in Breaking Bad.

It’s so brilliant how Lucas keeps reusing this cinematic motif. It’s like poetry, it rhymes.

I’m gonna be the one guy that says that I’ve enjoyed these episodes on their own, but it is frustrating how they seem to not have any sort of overarching story or character arc for Din Djarin. Season 1 and 2 are way better. It’s just subplot after subplot, and I enjoy the subplots (mostly) but there’s no main plot. The only thing I can say is that it seems to be building something between Din and Bo-Katan that I’m interested in seeing where it leads. I like the rapport they build and this is the first time that Bo has ever been a likable character for me. I like the cute Grogu moments, the creature design, Ahmed Best, and Bo-Katan joining The Children of the Watch. But again, where’s the story? And where tf is Gus Fring-I mean Moff Gideon? Gideon was such an awesome villain and we have nothing from him yet.

I was giving the earlier episodes a lot of slack because I figured they were building to something and it was more of a slow burn, but now there’s only two episodes left. What’s going on?

I’m taking the previous one as permission to include supplemental material, so…

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith (2017 Comic Run)
3. Return of the Jedi
4. A New Hope
5. The Mandalorian
6. Darth Vader (2015 Comic Run)
7. The Clone Wars (2008)
8. Andor
9. Darth Vader (2020 Comic Run)
10. Rogue One
11. Revenge of the Sith
12. The Bad Batch
13. The Force Awakens
14. Tales of the Jedi
15. Solo
16. Obi-Wan Kenobi
17. Book of Boba Fett
18. The Phantom Menace
19. The Last Jedi
20. Attack of the Clones
21. The Rise of Skywalker

Skybatman said:

in your OT edits will you make them more fast paced ?

No. As I said the originals remain mostly unchanged except for the things I listed. ANH and ESB are pretty fastly paced to begin with and ROTJ being slower is purposeful.

I have DRASTICALLY re-edited this thread. My edits will be nothing like the ones I had in mind when I first created this. The OT changes are minor, the only changes are the ones that I mentioned. My Prequels will be way more edited, as my Big Prequel Fan days are over and I’ve come to agree with more criticisms over time.

My edits of the Prequels can’t fix them entirely (they really need a full rewrite) but I wanna make the best films out of what’s available that I can for my own enjoyment.

I hope you guys read my suggestions and are interested in my ideas.

Juno Eclipse said:

It also marks low for me as there is not much in the way of a friendship or brotherhood shown between Ben and Anakin. Yes, that should have occurred more in the previous films, or accomplished it better in them, but this was the ‘final shot’ at portraying that. The same also applies for Padme and Anakin’s relationship, and crucially, “Vader being seduced by the dark side of the force”, instead of what we got as his reason for “the turn”.

Before it was released those were the four things I wanted to see done well in ROTS, and thought that we would get, despite the shortcomings in TPM and AOTC. Yet, for me it failed across the board.

Regarding Anakin and Obi-Wan’s friendship, there isn’t as much as we should’ve gotten in the trilogy, but it was there in ROTS, unlike the other two. You see it in the opening mission and when Obi-Wan says goodbye when leaving for Utapau.

The romance is bad but not as bad as AOTC.

Anakin’s final seduction is also bad, though again, it’s a trilogy wide issue. It’s frankly impossible to pull the Walter White-esque turn we really should’ve gotten by this point because the other two movies didn’t do enough. We don’t see Anakin get gradually seduced by the dark side’s power. So Lucas came up with a half-assed, rushed turn.

ROTS isn’t very good, but I still give it the highest ranking of the Prequels (still far below the OT) because at least it feels alive. TPM, while arguably the most functional, is boring. AOTC is a cringe-inducing clusterfuck. ROTS is stupid, but fun.

ROTS from the moment Anakin turns is better then the other two Prequels combined.

I respect your opinion though, I’m just giving mine.

Channel72 said:

I never liked the Prequel Jedi doctrine forbidding romantic relationships. For one thing, nothing in Star Wars before the Prequels ever suggested this idea. Sure, in Empire Strikes Back Yoda tells Luke that his Jedi training is more important than loyalty to his friends. But these were dire circumstances. We can’t extrapolate from this that official Jedi doctrine forbade romantic attachments. I mean certainly not after Mara Jade showed up. (I know that wasn’t Lucas, but whatever).

The Jedi order was originally suggested to be something like a cross between mythologized versions of Samurai and Arthurian Knights - an order of elite warriors committed to serving the Republic. With the introduction of Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, the original warrior/soldier Kurosawa stuff (“General Kenobi in the clone wars”) was downplayed in favor of an emphasis on meditation and self-defense. Elements of Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism were mixed in. But even though some forms of monastic Buddhism have traditions of celibacy, this isn’t mandated, and there was nothing in Star Wars to suggest it anyway. Of all Anakin’s sins, it was never suggested that getting married and having children was one of them.

The fact that the Jedi must choose between the Order and marriage seems to stem from Lucas personally. Lucas lost Marcia because of his commitment to making movies, especially Star Wars. He had two marriages and had to choose between them, and movies won out.

Lucas put a lot more of himself in Star Wars then people think. He gave the Jedi his philosophy. The relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is likely inspired by him being a student and then friend of Francis Ford Coppola.

https://david-talks-sw.tumblr.com/post/701056073444032512/the-real-life-inspiration-for-obi-wan-anakins

JadedSkywalker said:

The attachment thing and keeping him from his mother should have been the reason he turned on the Jedi. Also a desire for justice, the Jedi didn’t care about the slaves. And his desiring power. Anakin wants the power to dominate life and the lives of others, and to maintain order through force. He aligns with Palpatine because they agree the Empire is the way to balance chaos. Obi-Wan doesn’t agree he trusts the people and believes in Democracy. He becomes an enemy of the new order.

Join the darkside to save Padme is just idiotic.

The Jedi never kept Anakin from his mother, nor did they not care about slaves. The first one is just a plot hole because frankly, Shmi is a plot device in Anakin’s fall and if the Jedi save her there’s less story. George called them “the most moral of anyone in the galaxy”, therefore he didn’t have them not save her to portray them in a bad light. The second is because the Jedi don’t have the man-power to wage war on the entire Outer Rim without the Senate’s backing, which they refuse to give.

Other then that I agree with you, though I do think Anakin wanting to cheat death is a really interesting idea that could actually really work, especially if he also wants it for himself. You could even tie that desire to Vader being a cyborg, though that’d admittedly be a quite radical change.

Drakul said:

I don’t know if your still thinking of doing this but I left the stuff I think would be nice. Personally I’ve never been a hater of this movie. It’s just the Jar Jar antics (not enven the character himself) that annoy me. As well as the midichlorian stuff and a few of Anakin’s childish outbursts.

Then this edit isn’t for you.

Anakin being with Padme while he’s a Jedi is inherently wrong because Anakin’s married to the Order. It’s a commitment.

Close relationships are allowed. Masters and their padawans are very close. Tiplar and Tipler were sisters and loved each other. Obi-Wan outright says, he loved Anakin as a brother. Also it’s not like Yoda or Obi-Wan said he couldn’t be friends with Han or Leia, they just warned him that his feelings were/could be manipulated.

Loving everyone equally is not what it’s about. Luke didn’t love Vader equally as much as he loved Han and Leia, but he still did.

But the prequels portray this poorly as the Jedi are so flat and boring, nor does Lucas ever dive into his ideology more then, “Let go of your attachments, Anakin”.

Bro really just hated on Buddhism, that’s kinda racist

Also if you actually took the time to learn the Buddhist principle of non-attachment you’d learn it’s basic common sense.

“The Buddhist concept of non-attachment is a constructive way to approach relationships. Here, attachment refers to an attempt to control things that you can’t control. When you try to grasp or control something outside of yourself, this causes suffering for yourself and the other person.”

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

I’m not one of those people who thinks we should just accept everything Lucas says in regards to Star Wars, our interpretations are just as valid, but I do want to add this in here:

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.”

(Also I cut this quote short because it’s extremely long. But if anyone is curious to what he says next I can post it. The point Lucas is getting at is: Attachment=bad. Jedi not acting on attachments=good. Love=/=attachment. Jedi have no issue with love. And Anakin fell because he didn’t listen to Jedi philosophy.)

I actually really like many of the ideas Lucas is presenting in all these behind the scenes interviews about the prequels and whatnot, but its a shame its not conveyed as well in the films.

I agree with this completely. I was talking about Filoni’s interpretation of the prequels. Which most people in the Star Wars fanbase accept. Lucas’ idea about the Jedi teachings being right is good.

I don’t like how Lucas portrayed Anakin’s fall either, but I’d rather have him be an idiot who blindly believe Palpatine’s claim about cheating death then blaming the Jedi. At least it’s still a selfish power hungry motivation and kinda being “seduced by the power of the dark side”, even if he’s idiotically tricked into becoming evil.

I hate the Filoniverse. The worshipping of Ahsoka and Qui-Gon, the hate on the Jedi like Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu, and how it’s warped the fanbase into believing that the prequels are actually a super brilliant critique on the Jedi Order. I love The Mandalorian and (some of) The Clone Wars, but still.

Not only is that Filoni’s interpretation not Lucas’ but Vader’s fate being based on a duel he wasn’t in when he was 9 and implying his turn is the Jedi’s fault is so fucking stupid.

We were told Vader was seduced to the dark side, not that he was a poor baby victim of bad Jedi teachings.

We were also told the Jedi were in their prime before the Empire.

It’s like blaming Walter White becoming Heisenberg on Hank.

Channel72 said:

Yeah, but like… nobody wants to see this. And there’s no reason Anakin had to be written this way. Lucas decided to portray the Jedi as a weird cult that suppresses familial bonds and romantic attachments, but there’s no reason they had to be written that way. I always imagined Anakin as this well-adjusted, somewhat brash ace pilot. Not “roguish” like Han Solo, but just confident and principled. Yeah, it’s just my personal preference, but I would argue that this portrayal would benefit the story way more than what we got, because the entire point of Anakin’s arc is that he was supposed to be a good man who fell from grace. But the Prequels instead portray him as this emotionally unstable hormone explosion with homicidal tendencies from the very moment we first meet him. (Not counting Episode 1, which features an entirely different Anakin.)

The funny thing is that the Jedi aren’t actually supposed to be that, Lucas just makes them look that way because they’re written in the most boring, flat way possible and he never explains what he means by “attachment” (which is the Buddhist definition, the inability to let go of things).

Also hard agree there. Not only was Vader clearly not an explosive character, thus creating disconnect, but he’s also just not likable at all. Your audience needs to care about your main character to get invested in their arc.

Lucas seemed to think that portraying Anakin initially as this cherubic, innocent little child would produce such a stark contrast with Vader as to sufficiently fulfill the “fall from grace” narrative. Except the whole point of a “fall from grace” narrative is to track the character transformation as it plays out via personal choices. A little kid doesn’t even have a brain developed enough to make any dramatically interesting choices.

Bingo. If someone peaked when they were 10 then there’s literally nothing to save. They’re not a good person at all. Hell you can even be a mean kid who steals the other kids toys and pulls the girl’s hair and then be really mature and well-adjusted as a teen and adult. Nobody gives a shit, the first 12 years of your life are basically just a free trial.

Michael Corleone would have been a useful model when writing Anakin, in a broad sense. I wouldn’t want Anakin to be as serious or as emotionally reserved - I mean it’s a Star Wars movie, it needs to be snappy and upbeat most of the time. But Michael Corleone provides a good template for the general arc required here - somebody that makes a series of individual choices, initially with honorable intentions, but slowly becomes more and more of a monster. Michael Corleone activates full Sith mode when he kills his brother-in-law and then coldly lies about it to his widowed sister.

Yep, and Michael also has that cold, collected, commanding demeanor that Vader has. He’s like the perfect template to to the point where I can’t help but think there wasn’t some inspiration from him when OT Vader was written. Coppola and Lucas were great friends after all.

StarkillerAG said:

I do think “he’s just not a good guy” could be a potentially interesting route, but I’m worried that it would lead to Vader’s redemption not really feeling earned. If he was always a psychotic narcissist deep inside, is it really a “redemption”, or just a deathbed conversion?

My ideal take on Anakin’s turn would combine a desire for power with the “save Padme” thing from the original movie. He starts out with seemingly noble intentions (although his real motivations are more narcissistic), but the more dark things he does in his wife’s name, the more he realizes how good the dark side feels. By the end, he’s become fully mad with power, to the point where he makes his visions come true by choking his wife to death, and doesn’t even realize the irony of it afterwards.

No matter what, though, the “Palpatine gaslights Anakin into thinking the Jedi are evil” plotline has to go. It’s possibly the worst aspect of the original movie. Anakin should be an intelligent person who was seduced by attachment and the promise of power, not a moron who fell for the most obvious lie in the history of the galaxy.

I agree with this 100%. This this this. All about this.

Vader does love the dark side in the OT. He loves punishing those he hates, even Imperials like Motti, Ozzel and Needa. He even makes sadistic jokes about it. But deep down he does have guilt because there’s a good person buried deep down. He just keeps giving into his lust for the power of the dark side and his hatred.