G&G-Fan

NeverarGreat said:

In the OT, Vader only ever directly kills enemy (and sometimes allied) combatants.

Not only are they not all combatants, but once a combatant is unarmed and you go any further then you have to, there’s no difference, at that point.

He kills Captain Antilles when he’s defenseless and completely at his mercy for no reason other then lying to him and participating in a plot to save the galaxy from a planet destroying weapon.

What Vader did to Leia when they “discussed” the location of the Rebel base (another thing he makes a sardonic joke about), the music, editing, set design, slow buildup, shot choice, was clearly implying it was pretty sinister. It clearly wasn’t a “discussion”. It’s not just a truth serum droid, it’s a torture device. This is an imprisoned politician, not a combatant.

He kills Needa when he apologizes for losing the Falcon in a complete unwinnable situation, and makes a sadistic joke about doing so.

He leans towards Han, a defenseless prisoner, when he’s being tortured as if he’s enjoying it and sardonically says, “He will not be permanently damaged”, as his screams echo across the hallway. He was chill with the idea of Han dying if it meant using him as a test subject.

He takes pride in and outwardly gloats about trapping Lando in a really unfair deal, with no intent to hold his end at all, taking over the city to subjugate the innocents of Bespin no matter how much Lando complies.

He was gonna torture people working on the second Death Star to “motivate them” despite the workload being seemingly impossible for the number of men they have.

He sadistically lords the leverage Luke’s feelings for his friends gives him, and revels in the thought of turning his own daughter to the dark side to use her as a tool for his own ends. He straight up goes, “Yessss” like a devil. Not to mention, yeah, trying to do that to your son is also pretty bad.

NeverarGreat said:

Sure, you could argue that he killed Owen and Beru, but he never stepped foot on Tatooine and those executions were probably the purview of his underlings.

Vader is above them. Everything they do goes through him, especially these people who are critical to an important mission. It would’ve been his call to take them prisoner, kill them, etc.

I am 100% certain we were never supposed to get the impression that a grunt stormtrooper is worse then the dark lord of the Sith that is one of the main villains in 3 movies. His very first shot has the stormtroopers submit to what the visual language of the movie is making obvious to us is the bigger bad. He’s taller, darker, scarier mask. The visual language of Star Wars is very deliberate and on-the-nose, which is why it appeals to the most primal sensibilities.

NeverarGreat said:

Similarly, the Death Star was Tarkin’s project, a project which Vader clearly disliked on a deep and fundamental level. Of course at some level, everyone who supported the Empire had Alderaan’s blood on their hands, but to say that Vader had some unique and singular responsibility for Alderaan seems to be a stretch.

He disliked the Death Star because he feared it could replace him. Vader was the Empire’s ultimate enforcer up to that point. There’s a reason he basically goes, “The Death Star is nothing compared to my power”, instead of, “The Death Star is too much power for us to wield”, or something. It was about his ego. Nothing to do with any sense of morality. Which is why Motti calls him out on intimidating them.

He was in the room with Tarkin when he did it. He held Leia back when she was attempting to stop him. He could’ve used the force to snap Tarkin’s neck and then take command of the station, as he was already second-in-command as is. He’s like a demigod to everybody on that station. He made his choice to do nothing.

NeverarGreat said:

To then suggest that it was in fact Anakin who was monstrous long before the corrupting influence of the Empire even existed is to strike at the core of everything Anakin is in the eyes of his son. If Anakin committed genocide before the Clone Wars, if he killed children before the Empire was formed, then there is no good man for Luke to save. Anakin didn’t become a monster when he became Darth Vader; Anakin was himself a monster, and the apparent dichotomy between Anakin and Vader in the OT simply doesn’t exist. Anakin as a man was always Vader, and Vader was always a monster.

We’re told he betrayed his brethren, knights that fought for peace and justice, because was seduced by the dark side. Not lied to or fed propaganda, he wanted power. And Vader agrees with this.

“If you only knew the power of the dark side! Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.” = “The power of the dark side is so great, even your father was seduced by it.”

Darth Vader is a villain, not a trapped victim. Everything from his skull-like mask, to the way his deal with Lando is treated like a deal with the devil, to the way the carbon freezing chamber is meant to look like Hell. He went from being a good man to a bad one by making his own selfish choices. Just because he became a bad man doesn’t mean he wasn’t ever a good one.

He didn’t commit genocide before the Clone Wars. If you’re referring to the Tuskens, that wasn’t genocide, and I disagree with that creative choice anyway, at least if it extends beyond the ones responsible for killing his mother (and even then, that pent up anger could be used as a plot point, if one chose).

He killed children after he became a Sith, like a day before it was officially the Empire, when it was already the Empire in all but name. At that point, it’s a semantic argument. I understand the sentiment, as it’s absolutely rushed in ROTS, but when he’s christened Darth Vader, he’s supposed to be like, 90% Vader already.

Might be a little bit of a hot take, but the youngling scene is only bad because of how abrupt it is. It’s not a new low for Vader when you really put it in perspective.

Darth Vader, even in the OT in isolation, has the blood of thousands on his hands. Rebels, Jedi, innocents. He embraces the dark side and was even straight up sadistic. He knows he’s a monster and embraces it. It’s not like when Tarkin was gonna blow up Alderaan, he was like, “But dem kids”. His heart was frigid at that point.

Anakin’s redemption was never about making up for his crimes. He was a cold Sith for decades. It’s spiritual, stemming from the ounce of good left in him, his love for his family. It’s never too late to make the right choice. The fact that the line was crossed a long time ago is the point.

To me, that’s an important part of Vader’s character. He’s a villain. I love him in a “he’s terrifying and badass” way, whilst also having a deep connection to his depth as a character, not “what if he’s actually right, society amirite”. I don’t sugar coat his actions.

The Prequels just didn’t do a good enough job getting us to the point where him killing children comes across as anything other then insanely abrupt.

I’m just curious, any plans to return to this edit?

Rewatching the OT with a friend this weekend to show him the theatrical cuts. Today was A New Hope. And it shed further light on the why of the prequels bad structure.
Anakin’s mother’s death parallels Luke’s aunt and uncle, the difference being that it inspires Luke to be a hero, and Anakin to become power hungry. But for Anakin, it doesn’t happen until the second movie. Lucas tried to justify Anakin being 9 in the last one by saying “well his bond with his mom is more emotional”, but all he does is waste a movie, as he’s an entirely static character. ANH proves that the emotion still hits with barely any screentime, as anyone can relate to what it may feel like to lose a parent. Shmi’s death should’ve been in the first one, with Anakin being 19 in TPM. It makes him want to become a Jedi, because he seeks power. And over the next two films, we see him slowly descend from Jedi hero into the cold ruthless Darth Vader we love from the OT when the power of the dark side is more appealing to him, especially the promise for the secret of eternal life.

Basically, it takes two movies for Anakin to get where Luke is at the end of ANH, and that is heavily problematic to the structure of the trilogy. I enjoy ROTS, but there was just too much material crammed in as Lucas basically procrastinated the most important parts of the main character’s journey.

Gandalf the Cyan said:

I see it as Vader trolling Han and Leia.

Also a valid interpretation

My review of Return of the Jedi on my YouTube channel (Lord Vader Tyrannus). I had to post it in two parts because of copyright. The second part is in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa7F2K6P0bw

Channel72 said:

I was thinking about the dinner scene on Cloud City. It’s a great, iconic scene - Han and Leia casually walk into the dining room, believing everything is okay, only to see Vader just sitting there at the head of the table.

But like… it’s one of those things that makes very little sense if you think about it. What was the point of staging the dinner? Why didn’t Vader simply arrange for Stormtroopers to come to Han/Leia’s hotel room and just arrest them there? Why the elaborate ruse? Presumably, the Empire already had control of the entire city even before Han and Leia arrived, so the subterfuge just seems unnecessary.

This doesn’t have any effect on the plot though. If it happened like you described nothing changes.

But an attempt at a logical answer, the dinner scene is more confined. Vader on one end, the troops on a more open end. If they tried to enter through the room, only one person can enter at a time, so the troopers will be bottlenecked. I guess you can argue Vader could capture them himself. However, there’s potential escape routes. Maybe there’s a way to get under the floor, another room that leads to another. Our hotel rooms have fire escapes and such. Hell, Han and Leia would probably be willing to risk jumping out the window over being captured by Vader. Worst case they’re dead, worst case with Vader, they’re tortured and forced to extract information about the alliance and then killed (“They didn’t even ask any questions”).

Channel72 said:

Man, I wish I had the same reaction. After I saw so many positive reactions to ROTS I wanted to give the movie another chance. But when I tried rewatching it like around 2 years ago, it just came off as hopelessly flawed.

I feel that man, with other stuff. I want to love the Obi-Wan show. It’s Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, I should like it. But they didn’t do them justice, and it’s hard, but eventually you have to come to terms with your own feelings, and you have.

I’m happy to admit that most of my enjoyment for ROTS is that, and nostalgia, it was my fav as a kid. I think it’s quality wise better then the other two Prequels, but it’s not a masterpiece like the OT (even ROTJ, fight me). I had my denial period, but it’s true, at least through the standard by which I judge media. It’s the difference between analyzing quality and emotional connection (tho the two coincide to a degree, but not wholly).

Channel72 said:

There were glimpses of chemistry between Anakin and Obi-Wan in the opening space battle scenes, but it was just way too little and way too late.

When watching the entire trilogy as a whole, I agree. When watching it in isolation, it’s fun, and I can ignore how the previous two failed them.

Channel72 said:

The middle segment of the movie is a CGI circus featuring a cartoon cyborg riding a unicycle while a cartoon lizard chases him.

I enjoy that part, and Grievous as a whole, ironically. It’s hilariously over the top. He’s my favorite of the Prequel villains (besides good ole Sheev) because he’s a meme. Even mundane lines like “Just as Count Dooku predicted” are a stitch. To the point where I prefer him over 2003 CW Grievous, who to me, is just a faster Vader. I’m a Darth Vader stan, I want my man to be unique. Nobody steals his thunder. I liked the approach Lucas was going for, making all 3 Prequel villains their own, but having one tie in to Vader (even if superficial) as foreshadowing. Neat idea.

Even though, like everything in the Prequels, Lucas needed that filter he had during the OT era (so it’s earnest, not corny), to a degree, Grievous fits with that moustache twirling villain vibe we see sometimes in the OT with Tarkin, Jabba, and even the Emperor (Lucas even said when making Grievous, to avoid making him too similar to Vader and the other two, wanted to make him more like the Emperor). When you really think about it, Vader is really the only OT villain with a lot of depth, but it works, that’s not a criticism. You can only shove so much in a script. And that’s one of the Prequels failings, they try to do too much. Too many protagonists, too many villains, too many plots. You can’t enjoy Dooku like you can Tarkin because it tries to develop him but doesn’t have time to do so in this bloated screenplay. He’s at his best when he gets to be just Dracula, and even then, he doesn’t get to do it too much. So that’s why Grievous, who’s literally just Dr. Evil and doesn’t try to be more, is the most enjoyable to me.

Channel72 said:

Anakin’s turn seemed paradoxically both too sudden and also predictable, because his entire arc was mostly incoherent and spastic. He already slaughtered an entire village in the previous movie, then reverted back to “good guy hero” mode, then immediately agreed to mass-murder children like an hour after we saw him having a fun adventure with Obi-Wan.

Once again, I agree with a lot of this in the logical part of my brain. The Anakin content in TPM and AOTC should’ve been combined, and his arc in ROTS should’ve been in two movies. A slow decent into the cold domineering Darth Vader we know and love from the OT, an emphasis on that addiction to power, the desire to cheat death to never feel pain of loss (and I’d also add not ever die), only to become Death’s Dragon, the Grim Reaper. A monster.

I see where Lucas was going, with the hot and cold thing. I’ve been there, even if nowhere near that extreme. Is it too extreme given the movie’s tight time frame? Yeah. But in social situations, where I’m scared, I can often be like that. I go from being confident and believing to being cold because I’m insecure and don’t want to be hurt. Though it’s worth mentioning, I’m a 21 y/o with ADHD (I went undiagnosed until April; I am on meds now). And those are situations with crushes or even sometimes platonic friends. What if it was a hypothetical wife about to die, when you’ve already watched your mother die in front of you, and blamed yourself?

The scenes work for me when I isolate them in my brain (even when watching the movie) to allow myself to feel the emotional effect. William’s score and Christensen’s acting work really well to convey that emotional distress, conflict and the cold, even if he sometimes got stuck with some bum material. That pathos connects with me on an deeply emotional level.

The way Darth Vader leans in so close when Han is being tortured always scares me. As if he’s savoring it.

To me, that comes off as it being personal. The guy doesn’t seem the type to care unless he does. Perhaps Vader recognizes Han as the one who sent him flying in ANH?

I’ve gone on rants on this site about some flaws of ROTS, but every time I rewatch it, I get swept up in emotion and really enjoy it. Not OT tier, but I genuinely think it’s well-constructed in some ways. The entire OT is a 10/10, ROTS is like a 7.

Esp Anakin’s turn. Like when you really think about it, it doesn’t make a lot of logical sense, and I’ve ranted about that on here before, but every time I watch it, with the exception of some iffy parts, it kinda works, bc maybe that’s the point. He was a very power hungry, passionate, fiery person. He was scared shitless, desperate, and made some really bad mistakes, burned within his own flame, and then became the cold Vader we see in the OT bc he lost everything, while still burning deep within. There are ways it could be done better (I still maintain that craving immortality should’ve been part of it, and it should’ve been spread over 2 movies instead of 1), but to a degree, elements of it still work. I think it’s bc I can be a really emotional person at times, I’ve done some really dumb stuff when it comes to women (tho obvs nowhere near that degree) that when I snap out of it I go, “Wow, really? That was really pathetic and stupid”, so I guess I kinda get it? Especially if it was a hypothetical wife of 3 years dying and I had gone through as much loss as him? Idk.

Lucas didn’t even intentionally characterize them as arrogant. They’re unprepared, complacent at worst.

He needed more script doctors.

I’d love it if someone made a fanedit of Revenge of the Sith where Anakin turns immediately after being denied the rank of master so it seems like the only reason he turns to the dark side and becomes a mass murdering psychopath is because he didn’t get a promotion.

He said it wouldn’t be in the HD version.

Patali said:

For me, this is something I am not a fan of and I think the show honestly handled better than the EU. The idea that Vader is a known public entity, honestly I found stupid. Vader should only be known to the top brass and generals on either side. I saw some comic where the Empire was literally putting him as a public propaganda face in holograms and such. I just don’t think it makes sense. He’s a hand of the Emperor who handles special assignments. Not just an Imperial. I think at the very most, he’d be in whispers of fearful soldiers who might have heard horror stories of a black armored, red lightsaber wielding wizard. To me that is more powerful than the Empire parading him around.

But, I know a lot of EU fans prefer that depiction, so hey, more power to them

Why is it stupid for Vader to be well-known? Scaring people into submission has always been the Empire’s tactic

everytime someone shares an unsharable google drive link an angel loses it’s wings

That just makes the movie even better

accidental double post

Caston said:

I’d like to still see that original finished cut of ROTS, before George reshot and re-edited it to focus on Anakin. I’ve just started reading The Secret History of Star Wars again and am looking forward to this section in the book.

This short article is worth reading for anyone interested in how ROTS ended up on screen (though the book goes into considerably more detail, IIRC): http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/theturn.html
 

Maybe we’ll get to see those unused shots on other story arcs and characters in a “50th anniversary box set” or something, along with many other unused shots or deleted scenes for all 11 of the main films?

I really like some ideas from the older version and dislike others.

The original conception of Anakin’s turn was that the darkside was slowly turning and corrupting his mind, like some kind of drug or virus. Anakin’s massacre of the Tusken Raiders was initially a pivotal point (in many other ways as well, as we will see later) because it gave him his first taste of this awesome power, and slowly but surely he would be drawn back to it. Thus, when Anakin struck down Mace (or Dooku, in the original conception), it was the consumation of a journey that began in Episode II. This is why the Emperor was sure Luke would fall in Return of the Jedi if he killed Vader out of hate–once you had tasted its power, it would be so irresistable that you would inevitably be drawn back to it, and slowly it would consume you, twisting your mind.

This is great, I love this idea. This is really what the center of Anakin’s turn to Vader should’ve been about: that addiction to the dark side. OT Vader boasted the power of the dark side so much, you’d think that’s the reason he turned.

I especially love how it retroactively makes Return of the Jedi even better by giving a previous example of how taking revenge, no matter how seemingly justified, can trap someone in the dark side.

I don’t like the idea that Anakin genuinely believes the Jedi are taking over the Republic. Vader was never a character that believed he was doing the right thing. He was a power-hungry monster. In ROTJ it’s clear he knows what he’s doing is wrong. I like it better in the current cut, where it’s more just an excuse he gives himself rather then something he genuinely believes, but even that I’m iffy on. The most ideal version would be accepting that he’s become a monster but pretends he doesn’t care.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Obi Wan is gung-ho on killing Vader throughout the entire trilogy. Especially in this movie, where he says the Emperor has already won since Luke won’t kill his own father. He seems to imply that was always the plan for Luke, too. Which means Vader’s line suggesting that Obi-Wan once told him to run away together contradicts itself within its own film. So I seriously hope this line is amended. Even ignoring the prequels, it makes zero sense based on what we know about the characters.

First, Vader says “Obi-Wan once thought as you do”. Originally Obi-Wan was gonna try and bring Vader back to the light after he turned, but failed. He’s referring to a past attempt.

Second, Lucas didn’t intend on it coming across that Obi-Wan was gun-ho on killing Vader. Obi-Wan saying that Luke not being able to kill his father means “the Emperor has already won” is simply him acknowledging that if Vader refuses to turn and puts Luke in a position where he has to kill him and he refuses, then yeah, the Emperor will win.

“He knows that, eventually, Darth Vader is gonna come looking for them. He knows this thing is going to blow up in a big war. He knows a confrontation is brewing between Luke and his father. Ben hopes that Luke will either save his father or kill him, because whatever extra powers Luke’s got in his lineage, he is the one person that can probably fight his father and win.” - The Star Wars Archives: 1977-1983, 2018

Now, obviously Obi-Wan isn’t optimistic that Vader can be saved. He does think Luke will be forced to kill him, hence why the dialogue is the way it is.

Regardless of if it came across well in the film itself, the Jedi don’t explicitly send him to murder Vader, they just tell him to confront/face him. And we also circle back to my first point.

I’m indifferent about the line change. I think the original line works because I view the originals as a separate entity from the prequels as is (even if I still enjoy ROTS to a degree) and the new line works because Vader acknowledging Luke’s mother is rather touching. I don’t think it’s a make-or-break type of deal.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I like ROTS the way it is, but if I had to change one thing it would definitely be that robot’s line. Something like, “We aren’t sure why, but her life energy is fading away”. Just so that it’s clear either Palpatine, or Vader unknowingly, is draining her life force into Anakin so he can be reborn as Darth Vader. If Vader did unintentionally do it due to his angry thoughts dwelling on her that would make the most sense with Palpatine’s next line: “It appears, in your anger, you killed her.” That line doesn’t match him choking her anyways because that was never what she died from in the original. Vader’s next line would then explain that he likely absorbed her life force: “She was alive, I felt it!” Yeah, of course you felt it, you were unintentionally absorbing it so you could stay alive.

Random side note, but I find the “ooooba” part absolutely hilarious. Just another meme to make this movie a true masterpiece.

You just opened pandora’s box by giving Palpatine and Vader the ability to just steal the life force and kill anyone anywhere anytime they want. The Rebellion and Jedi would never stand a chance and they would become all-powerful force gods from absorbing all that energy.

Updated the changelist.

It now reflects everything I have come up with to successfully implement the idea that Anakin turns because he wants the power of immortality. I’m also including some deleted scenes in the opening act.

Unlike what I initially planned, a rough draft of this edit is likely coming out before the other two. Partially because I’m more enthusiastic about this one.

I’ve got the new lines from the Palpatine voice actor. And guys, these lines sound amazing. I actually got chills hearing them. I can’t wait to edit them into the movie

Gandalf the Cyan said:

It’s a good idea, but I think that would work much better if we actually SAW Anakin being treated badly. In the actual movie, his slave life doesn’t seem all that bad. This is a minor issue in TPM, but having Anakin’s vengefulness being a plot point without seeing his abuse would make the issue much more obvious.

One of the changes I was planning on making was taking advantage of the alien language dialogue and making Watto verbally abusive and alluding to worse stuff happening off-screen.

my favorite part of Revenge of the Sith is when Palpatine is so happy Anakin is turning to the dark side he nuts like 8 times

In a wider effort to reorient Anakin’s turn to Vader to being more about power then attachment (something I’m trying to accomplish with my “Vader Edition” prequel trilogy), what if part of the reason the Council rejects Anakin is because he secretly craves revenge on his master? I’d be 100% understandable, he was a slave. I don’t think there was ever a slave that didn’t want to give their master what they deserved.

The part of him missing his mother would still be incorporated, but I think it’d go a long way to show that Anakin had power-hungry tendencies from the beginning which ties into his past as a slave.