G&G-Fan

Connor MacLeod said:

didn’t make Vader look A fool like he did in revenge of the Sith

Vader…

• Doesn’t put out the fire separating him and Obi-Wan with the Force, like he just did 30 seconds ago, Force grab Obi-Wan and pull him over, or just walk through the fire. Yes, his suit is that durable, especially in the Canon comics
• Doesn’t arrest the Organa’s for being obvious Jedi sympathizers. There’s no other way Obi-Wan could’ve known about Leia’s capture as it wasn’t public
• Doesn’t order the Star Destroyer pursuing the rebels to use TIE fighters, and redirects the entire Destroyer to follow Obi-Wan’s ship, only to then leave in his own shuttle to face him. All he had to do was order the Destroyer to continue following the rebels and use his shuttle to face Obi-Wan

All of which he would’ve done if he was written in-character with the OT and Canon Vader comics (which are a far better depiction of a younger Vader).

Other out-of-character things, though not necessarily relating to his intelligence:

• The Emperor says Vader lost his duel with Obi-Wan because “Perhaps your feelings for your former master have left you weakened.” But Vader shouldn’t be conflicted when fighting Obi-Wan. Part of his characterization is that he is too utterly consumed by his hatred of his past self and (almost) everything and everyone from that life. His heart should be like a Sun fighting Obi-Wan. Luke was an exception because he represented the future.
• Darth Vader, in Canon material like the comics, is an unrelenting combatant. You can cut off a limb, destroy his respirator, he’ll still fight and win, fueled by the power of the dark side.
  When the first Jedi he faces in the suit takes advantage of his cybernetic leg breaking (having thrown a bunch of obstacles his way before the fight) and throws him off a cliff, what happens? Vader painfully bends his body back into shape and uses a droid’s parts to help reconstruct the parts of his suit he needs, and comes back to finish the job. This is not only just one example, but also takes place days after his immolation and surgery.
  At this point in his life, nothing but a literal force of nature (flood, earthquake, etc.) would’ve been able to stop Vader killing Obi-Wan, which is why, perhaps, they shouldn’t have fought in the show.
• He didn’t kill Reva the second she showed up as a potential inquisitor due to her knowing his identity. That’s kinda one of Vader’s things. He can’t stand anybody knowing his former identity. Nobody can know that he’s human, in any way vulnerable. They must know him as this seemingly invincible monster. It’s an ego thing.
• I loathe how they had Vader “earn” his classic theme. Once he’s in the suit, he’s fully Vader, that’s it. Not “50% Vader” as Chow says.
  His hatred of Obi-Wan is not Anakin, it’s Vader. Vader is the pure manifestation of the dark side of Anakin, that’s the whole point. Everything about him is a twisted, evil version of his former self.
  Vader was never just this one-dimensional robot that doesn’t give a shit about anything other than following his master’s order. Even in the OT, while he’s mostly incredibly cold, you see that rage, pride, and possessiveness. It’s part of what makes Vader such a compelling, terrifying, and intimidating villain. He has drive, personal stake. His desire for revenge against Kenobi is in ANH. Palpatine should be encouraging his hatred of his former master unless it actually gets in the way of the needs of the Galactic Empire.
  Also, what a way to spit on Soule’s 2017 Vader comic run. I am also so beyond sick of the “long game origin/earning the mantle” trope for classic characters in modern media. It’s hack, soulless, uncreative writing.

There are some scenes I actually really like. Terrorizing the villagers, some aspects of the first duel, portraying him as a horror villain, Force pulling the entire ship down, absolutely schooling Reva by beating her without even pulling out his own lightsaber. The scene where Vader admits that he is responsible for his own fall, not Obi-Wan, is almost good if not for the way it ends (with Obi-Wan just walking away and Vader not pursuing further). Vader does, and should, know and embrace that he’s a monster, his regret and self-loathing deeply repressed.
I love the look of the suit and some of his dialogue. Seeing Vader on the bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer again gave me a nice nostalgic serotonin hit, and his fortress on Mustafar is always cool. I like the added throne, great character development through imagery there. There’s a lot of gorgeous shots of him useful for edits and are just pretty to look at.

In the end, though, it’s hard for me to articulate how frustrating watching what could be potentially amazing content, only for it to drop the ball through. It’d be like if, after the iconic scene in Empire Strikes Back where Vader says one of his coldest lines to Lando, “I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further”, as he’s walking off, he then slips on a banana peel and a laugh track plays.
That’s how I feel watching a decent chunk of this show. Just the utter void of seeing all of the parts for a masterpiece only to see it fall apart right in front of my face.

Connor MacLeod said:

nor did he look like an overly obsessive weirdo like he did in attack of the clones.

…well yeah, there’s no romance subplot. I guess you can say he’s obsessed with Obi-Wan in a different way, but he’s not weird about it, and it’s in-character.

Connor MacLeod said:

does anyone here think Kenobi is a better prequel than the actual prequel trilogy?

Doesn’t matter Uncle Ben, the 2017 Canon Vader comics are better then both (meme template, if you don’t know look it up).

Spartacus01 said:

I completely understand where you are coming from, and I respect your love for the way Darth Vader is portrayed in the Original Trilogy. However, I think it is unrealistic to expect him to be as agile as he was before he got the suit, especially after everything that happened to him in Revenge of the Sith. As I have already said, the guy had both of his legs and one of his arms cut off, and then he was left to burn alive for hours before Palpatine arrived on Mustafar to save what little was left of him. After going through all that, it wouldn’t make sense for him to move with the same speed or agility. However, his physical limitations are part of what makes him so intimidating, at least in my opinion. The fact that he can still fight with such ferocity despite those injuries shows how powerful he really is. Even though his mobility has been reduced compared to his younger self, he has learned to adapt. He is no longer the fast, acrobatic duelist he was as Anakin, but now he is this unstoppable force who fights with pure power and precision. His strikes are heavy and deliberate, and that makes him terrifying in a different way. So, I think that his reduced mobility actually makes him even more intimidating. And let’s be honest, just looking at the suit, it is clear that it is heavy and uncomfortable. It is not the kind of thing anyone would want to live inside, much less fight in. You can tell right away that it would restrict his movements. But that only adds to the character in my opinion, because despite the fact that the suit looks cumbersome, Vader still manages to dominate his enemies. It is part of what makes him so menacing — he is pushing through immense physical pain and limitations, yet he is still one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. That’s what makes him powerful, even if he is not as agile as he once was.

We’re actually agreeing here, because I said practically the same thing about Darth Vader’s fighting style. The fights I brought up, both OT and otherwise, show exactly what you’re describing: a less agile but powerful, heavy, deliberate fighter. I don’t think he’s as immobile as it seems some ppl will say, but his main strength is his brutal, overwhelming, unrelenting nature…

I’m not sure I’m entirely behind the idea of Vader’s suit being uncomfortable and painful in-universe. We know in Canon that Vader modifies his suit himself and in Lords of the Sith, it’s separation of him from the physical realm allows him to focus and strengthen his relationship to the Force. But I’m cool with the idea of the suit behind painful in the context you described it in, and if the idea is it’s deliberate on his end to get more high on the dark side, not something forced onto him.

Spartacus01 said:

I understand your perspective, but I don’t think the Jedi need to be perfect to be role models. In fact, showing their flaws makes the story more relatable. The idea that “everything was perfect until Anakin and Palpatine destroyed it all” is way too simplistic, because life is not that black and white. People and institutions, even well-meaning ones like the Jedi, can make mistakes, and those mistakes can have serious consequences. A Republic that has lasted for thousands of years does not collapse simply because a guy with a bad childhood and an evil sorcerer decide to team up. Things are not that simple, and it is wrong to portray them so simplistically. There is a reason why people these days don’t appreciate simple fairy tales as much as they used to, and that’s because real life doesn’t work like fairy tales, and people don’t like simplistic stories anymore. There is a difference between trying to be positive and spread a good message and writing unrealistic stories where the good guys are perfect and the bad guys are basically demons with no soul. Furthermore, what makes Obi-Wan and Yoda compelling mentors is not that they are flawless, but that they learn from their failures. They are still guiding Luke toward a better path despite the mistakes the Jedi Order made in the past.

Of course the good guys and bad guys should never be as one-dimensional as you describe. Taking the OT as an example, Luke, Han and Leia are protagonist heroes who are undeniably flawed (though I’m sure you weren’t referring to them). At the points in the narrative where Darth Vader is pure evil and Obi-Wan is pure good, there’s still dimension and nuances to their characterizations. Vader and Obi-Wan aren’t just evil and good respectively, they’re a particular flavor of evil and good. They still have traits, goals, views, and rudimentary backstories. This is understandable, they’re not the protagonists. As the movies go on, they’re given more depth as we learn more. Vader actually has deeply repressed vulnerability underneath his cold hardened personality. Obi-Wan lied to Luke and either actually failed Anakin or is too hard on himself. Yoda and the Emperor are the embodiment of good and evil, but even still, have character traits.

I don’t have a problem with the characterization for Obi-Wan and Yoda in the Prequels either, I take issue with the idea that the Jedi’s beliefs are corrupt and incorrect and putting so much blame on the Jedi for their tragic fate. Protagonist Jedi characters should be good people with flaws, but the religion is the enlightened path, and the flaws of the characters (understandable and human) strays from Jedi philosophy (like Luke’s). The one PT Jedi flaw Lucas agrees with, the participation in the war, is a departure from their philosophy (though his intent is that they’re involuntarily drafted). There’s also still a place for characters like Yoda, who should be all good, because his purpose in the narrative is to be the wise mentor. You don’t see people begging for Gandalf to be given a massive amount of depth.

People still love the OT as much as they did back then, same with say, Lord of the Rings. Morally simplistic stories are not an issue, as long as they have compelling characters, good pacing, and thematically powerful stories. The issue some had with the PT Jedi is that they found them unintentionally too rigid, apathetic, and dimwitted, which is mostly due to Lucas’ writing and directing. Fans decided to be good faith to the Prequels and ran with the idea that they’re actually supposed to be that way, exaggerating or interpreting flaws, to the point where the Filoni-verse has made it canon. Which is fine, if that’s your thing, I don’t agree with Lucas on everything either.

I should also note that the idea of a millennia old institution falling apart because of two evil dudes is partially a result of Lucas cramming the timeline. The implication of the OT, when calling the Jedi an ancient religion, is that they had been gradually becoming more sparse for awhile, likely due to external forces, and Vader and the Empire (mostly) sealed the deal. I don’t think the original idea was that the Jedi were at their height in Obi-Wan and Anakin’s time. Curiously, Lucas incorporated the idea of a deteriorating Republic into the PT, but not a deteriorating Jedi Order, until the clone war and Order 66 (Lucas is on record saying TPM is meant to represent the height of the Jedi Order). I can see why he would want to, but it has ramifications on the overall structure and continuity.

NFBisms said:

The “dark side” as a blatantly degradative drug is just kind of a boring read IMO. If The Force is to supposed to be “everything” then the nuances of the human experience should be given room to work inside the framework. Agency and choice is a far more compelling engine to drive a story than mythological convention. It’s part of what makes ROTJ work for me; it wasn’t “too late.” It denies this idea weight.

Addiction is still based on choices, as someone prone to it due to my ADHD.
House MD is an excellent show with a nuanced and compelling portrayal of addiction and how one should deal with chronic pain, physically and mentally. House has his leg pain, but chooses to overdose on Vicodin, chooses to push people away, even when given alternatives.

It’s Vader’s choice to be evil and use the dark side, as it’s his choice to redeem himself. He’s not being mind-controlled, he has agency. I dislike interpretations that say otherwise. The overuse of victimizing the Sith is annoying to me.

NFBisms said:

Whether or not it accidentally stumbles into it, the prequels do enough to portray that rigid understanding of the Force as flawed pedagogy too - more than truth about nature. For all the convoluted vagueness about the galactic polity and what it’s meant to analogize, the denial of anything innocuous possibly leading to “the dark” (for a child) works too well in a decade not far removed from satanic panic and at the height of Catholic church scandal. I know not everyone agrees, but I do think that stuff is interesting. The Wire is a good show, and better than Lord of the Rings.

The prequels get so close to finding a good synthesis, but ultimately fail by retreating into Anakin’s wacky yellow-eyes corruption in ROTS’ third act. It just doesn’t leave much genuine room for feelings of remorse or guilt in The Force, and make Anakin/Vader feel less real.

“The Jedi made Anakin repress his emotions until he exploded”, is an interpretation I disagree with, as I see it as victimizing Vader too much. In the OT, we’re told that he was seduced by the dark side. He made a choice. Vader is a commanding presence who boasts his power in every other scene. He’s a tyrannical egomaniac who revels in control, his cold hardened personality forged to hide the soft, sentimental man deeply repressed within (as we see in his death scene).

A backstory fitting for Vader is one like Walter White or Michael Corleone, men who dipped into the criminal world for sympathetic and understandable reasons, only to turn into monsters, their initial motivations lined with pride and a need for control.
I very recently rewatched The Godfather Parts 1&2, and it’s obvious inspiration was drawn from them for the PT, even down to major plot points, so it’s not unfair to compare Anakin/Vader to Michael.
The Naboo romance parallels Sicily from Part 1, the slaughter of the separatists leaders parallels the Baptism sequence. The PT misses a lot of the nuance of what makes Michael work. They shouldn’t be exactly alike, but there’s lessons to be learned.
Such as the valid point you made: Anakin shows too little internal struggle with his dark deeds. We see this beautifully with Michael, his dipping in Satan’s works draining his soul to the point where he just goes cold. We see him nervous in the bathroom looking for the planted gun, his contemplative face before he kills Sollozzo and McClusky.

Making the Jedi corrupt means there’s no good role model. That’s the role Obi-Wan and Yoda have in the OT; they’re the good mentors leading Luke to the enlightened path. You need that in a story that, while for everyone, children should be able to follow, unlike The Godfather, clearly for adults.

Speaking of differentiating and balancing the Sith Lords, each one should’ve had a unique power. Vader’s could be force choke (as in, making that only Vader’s thing) or something else that matches his cold brutal nature. Palpatine’s should be the lightning, it’s perfect for him. Wicked and twisted like a dark wizard. Dooku should be something Dracula-like, perhaps a vampiric “sucking of force power” or something. Maul should be something savage and animalistic, taking inspiration from big cats.

It’s not a matter of it being “hard to believe”. I don’t like it. You can’t take a character ppl love, take away from some of what they loved about him and expect ppl to be cool with it.

I love Darth Vader, and he doesn’t have to be a god, and shouldn’t, but he should still be powerful.
I find Vader and Palpatine’s dynamic in Canon more fascinating, because his hold over Vader is actually more psychological and built on contingencies. Also, while Vader has more raw power, Sidious is more into dark side sorcery.
It fits both character’s personalities and balances their dynamic more. Vader is the brutal warrior enforcer, the Emperor is the manipulative sorcerer politician.
That’s mostly why I love the Emperor almost just as much as Vader; he’s evil yet in opposite to Vader in many ways. He’s his perfect compliment.
Anyway, Vader is allowed to have some cards on the table. So much so that Vader actually has some bartering power with Palpatine. Point being, Vader shouldn’t be wimpy.

The suit hardly restricts mobility in the OT. He does a big jump in ESB and shows some agility in dueling in ESB and ROTJ. The reason he walks that way in ROTS is because he was just put in the suit and went through surgery.
And sure, he’s not a super lean, agile fighter, but Vader makes up for it with the ferocity and power of his strikes. His suit gives him monstrously superhuman strength, seen in ANH’s introduction.
He is overwhelming and unrelenting. You could damage his suit, cut off a limb, destroy his respirator and he’ll just keep going (the Obi-Wan show didn’t understand this). ROTJ is an exception since he let go of the dark side.
Alongside Episodes 5&6, SC 38 I feel like perfectly showcases Vader’s fighting style, as does his fight with Cere in Jedi Survivor.

Channel72 said:

Regarding Vader and the negative portrayal of prosthetics/cybernetics, I think this is more like a visual metaphor for losing one’s humanity. In a separate conversation I was having in the OT section with ZkinandBonez, we were talking about how Star Wars is to some extent written as a timeless piece of mythology. If it weren’t set in some psuedo-futuristic space civilization, but instead set in like, a Lord of the Rings type high-fantasy environment, Vader would be something like a “Ring Wraith” or Gollum or some kind of decrepid yet powerful being, whose loss of humanity and descent into evil is symbolized by some kind of physical deterioration or dependency on dark magic. Vader’s cybernetic suit and iron lung serve a similar function, as a visual representation of a formerly good person who became evil. The cybernetics was simply a handy visual metaphor suggested by the sci-fi setting.

There’s also buried underneath all of this a very Christian theme of a “deal with the Devil” type thing, where achieving great powers of darkness comes with a very severe price of physical deterioration. Lucas implemented this idea very literally with having Vader fall into lava after embracing the Dark Side. The Emperor also appears physically deformed, presumably because he’s been screwing around with Dark Side powers for so long.

However, I don’t completely agree with this interpretation. I think it’s partially true, but Vader’s cybernetic suit also serves as a manifestation of a very modern fear about technology consuming our humanity (whatever that means in practice). This is a running theme in Star Wars, where reliance (or over-reliance) on technology is considered a bad thing, which is why Luke has to switch off his X-Wing targeting computer before pulling off the impossible shot, and a primitive Ewok tribe is able to defeat the technologically advanced Imperial troops.

I agree with this take. I don’t have a problem with, and in fact revel in, cybernetics being used to make Darth Vader scarier and more monstrous, because again, it’s about the circumstance. Vader’s mask looks like a skull and overall he has in appearance similar to the Ring Wraith’s (love the comparison). However, Luke and Lobot are cyborgs and are not evil for it. I’m a big fan of mythological motifs too. I eat up the Heaven and Hell imagery in ESB.

Channel72 said:

Regardless, the idea that the cybernetics somehow makes Vader less powerful is really an entirely off-screen idea that isn’t really apparent in any of the films themselves. If I recall correctly, the first time I even heard this idea was in the context of trying to reconcile the highly kinetic, acrobatic, fast-paced lightsaber duels in the Prequels, with Vader’s slow, sometimes almost clumsy fighting style in the OT. In other words, the idea that cybernetics makes Vader less powerful probably emerged from out-of-Universe inconsistencies in choreography and special effects between the two Trilogies.

This is true as well. Technically you’d only know through Lucas quotes, though you could really say the same about most of the power scaling in Star Wars; even with Disney having made Vader extremely powerful again (some sources even saying or implying superior raw power over the Emperor), you’d only really know through supplemental material. I just get annoyed by how it’s hard to talk about Vader, even in just the context of the new Canon, without someone shoving Prequel era Lucas quotes in my face and chastising me for preferring Vader’s Canon interpretation because “Lucas is the creator therefore you must always agree with him”. Especially when this idea of making Vader appear weak is a PT invention; Lucas was more then willing to indulge in Vader glazing in the OT era.

It really annoys me that Lucas says that the Vader vs. Ben duel is the way it is because it’s a fight between “an old man and a cyborg” and people go with it. First, the script literally describes them as seasoned warriors and the duel as powerful, not to mention all of the scenes that are designed to make Vader look strong. Second, the ESB and ROTJ duels disagree. Third, I think Dooku, Yoda, and Grievous would have something to say about that.

If one is to add that subplot, maybe Vader would the one to kill Boba Fett, force choking him or perhaps even using the force to cave his helmet into his head, crushing his skull.

The AOTC duels feel really awkward and stilted. It’s not as bad as Palpatine vs. Mace Windu, but it’s clear they’re trying to use a stunt double for Christopher Lee as little as possible, resulting in all of these weird janky cuts, and the way they move when dueling feels like they got a stick up their ass.

Bit of a hot take, I’ve never cared for Duel of the Fates (the fight itself not the music). It’s way too overstimulating for my ADHD ass, half the time I can’t follow what’s going on. The character work is too barebones for me to care.

My favorite duels are Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader from ESB and ROTJ, a great balance between ferocious but not batshit insane choreography with great character work.

I enjoy the two final duels in ROTS to a degree, but at the same time am miffed at how the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel, among may other prequel elements, serves to retroactively make OT Vader look weak when he was intended to be a powerful masterful warrior (they had him be the only one to wield a saber with one hand for a reason). I also think they need to be toned down too.

Come to think of it, in this original movie, was there anything that implied a more specific age for Luke and Leia? They can’t be any older then their early 20s but were they always 19?

Director said:

You can give me suggestions. I am not sure yet.

If you’re gonna put the Death Star near a planet, I’d recommend something like Coruscant or Geonosis. It’d be cool if it was a rather alien planet and not too Earth-like.

Some ideas relating to the timeline to make it match the OT’s implications a bit more.

TPM takes place years earlier then it does in canon (around 5-10). This has a ripple effect on AOTC, though ROTS has to stay the same.
Gradually we see the Jedi’s numbers decreasing. Empty seats on the council, less of them walking around. Perhaps by ROTS, there’s only a quarter of the council left. Try to make a point of the Jedi getting gradually “kicked out” of the government.
The Clone Wars lasts longer. Anakin becomes Vader in his late 20s rather then early 20s.

Ok and what are the changes besides logos and a couple you have listed for ANH?

I actually think that Ep 2&3 Obi-Wan and Padme are good characters, with the only real blemishes being some of their interactions (or lack thereof) with Anakin, which is due to poor writing and plotting. On paper and in certain scenes, I can see how Anakin and Padme are actually compatible (when you don’t have him admit to killing Tusken kids). But in TPM, Obi-Wan is sidelined and besides a couple one liners and exposition is kinda a prick, and Padme acts like she overdosed on Xanax 90% of the time. I think that’s partially why I find TPM the most dull.

Fan_edit_fan said:

Yeah, Lucas’ spin on Vader even works for his weird midiclorian fixation. It’s like “Well he lost his arms and legs,so there’s not enough midiclorians running through his body now…so he’s less powerful”. Which isn’t great at all.

It actually doesn’t make sense because according to TPM sensitivity is determined by how much you have per cell. Every cell that remains is still just as connected to the force. By the logic to spite Vader, Yoda should be the least powerful Jedi on the Council.

This looks really cool, I’d love to have it.

NFBisms said:

“He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil” from Ben is kind of where I’m getting the OT’s thematic vilification of prosthetics. It’s both about the inflicted trauma and the corruption of nature via technology. I don’t think it’s out and out ableist in the same way - because it does make Vader more scary in the OT - but I guess an unfortunate unintended message is that disabled people are unnatural or evil. Which isn’t better lol

Yeah you’re right. Personally, I prefer to interpret the line as more symbolic: Darth Vader sold his soul and became a cold-hearted, almost machine-like man. But I understand it’s not the intent.

I don’t have a problem with Vader being a cyborg being used to make him scarier, because he’s a villain, he defines his suit rather then it defining him. He chooses to look scary and be evil. Luke’s cybernetic hand allows him to see that he’s inflicting the same trauma and chooses to not use it for evil, and there aren’t sinister undertones when he’s first fitted with it. Lobot isn’t necessarily slighted.

Not necessarily in line with Lucas’ intent, but I stopped looking at the movies the same way Lucas does a long time ago (and honestly never really did, as I realized the more I read his quotes). It helps that he can’t ever stick to a narrative and the other directors conflicted with him sometimes. Fan interpretation conflicting with the intent of the director happens quite often (see Ridley Scott’s Alien prequels). Part of the beauty of film is interpretation, and I’ll always love the OT as I interpret them.

But there isn’t any way to spin, “He’ll never be as good at what he does as he could because he’s a cyborg” in a way that isn’t negative framing of prosthetics.

I’m curious as to what Vader’s voice is gonna sound like in the HD version. The original, the SE one more in-line with ESB and ROTJ, a new modified version of one of those two?

Lucas spent too much time on the wrong things. There was no reason to dedicate so much screentime to Qui-Gon, 9 y/o Anakin, Anakin’s mom, the Trade Federation, Jango Fett, the clones origin, assassination plot and Anidala romance being as drawn out as possible, the amount of battles that are just experimenting/showcasing with the new CG (TPM did not need 4 fucking battles). Too many characters (esp having a new villain for every movie), subplots, random world expansion, they’re underdeveloped because the scripts are crammed, unlike the originals which have more simplistic plots and thus have time to fully flesh out their ideas and focus on the characters, the meat of the story. You can rewrite the prequels with similar overall story but simpler plots. The only way to actually make good movies with every element from the prequel screenplays is to make it a TV show.

How about just having Obi-Wan find Anakin? No point where Owen and Anakin actually have a brotherly relationship and have contrasting ideas? A slower turn to the dark side? More screentime with Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends? Seeing Darth Vader actually hunt down and kill Jedi?

NFBisms said:

most positive depiction of cybernetics in the franchise

I don’t think the OT is negative about cybernetics on it’s own. As I edited into my initial post, Luke’s robot hand isn’t treated as sinister. When he puts it on it’s playing jovial music. In ROTJ it’s used as a symbol that he’s repeating the trauma inflicted upon him by Vader. It’s not necessarily the hand itself but the context paired with costuming symbolism.

In the OT, Vader being a cyborg is used to make him more imposing, not less. Vader is such a force to be reckoned with because not only is he powerful in the Force but because of his cybernetics he can do things like lift a grown man off the ground with one hand. It doesn’t explicitly neuter him, and is used to make him a greater villain, not lesser. Which is why I say Canon Vader is more like OT Vader in spirit.

Also, Lobot is a cyborg. Basically, cybernetics aren’t inherently bad, it’s about who’s using them, and they aren’t a weakness.

But in the prequels, it straight up has ableist undertones. Both Grievous’ cowardly nature and the retcons he does to Vader where he’s weaker because he’s a cyborg are both in the service of “prosthetics bad”. And there’s no characters framed as completely good that are cyborgs. Maybe Lucas had the same opinion when making both, but it doesn’t surface in the OT in an inherently negative light.

I recently kinda realized the way Lucas frames cybernetic prosthetics as inherently sinister and lesser during the prequel era has ableist undertones whether intentional or not. Vader’s suit specifically is a great iconic of evil, it’s the suit of a villain and it looks scary. But simply being a cyborg should not be treated with such scorn as Lucas does.

His explanation for Vader losing power just because he’s a cyborg isn’t even consistent with HIS OWN exposition in both trilogies. Midichlorians are measured per cell, and Yoda in ESB literally says the Force even flows and binds us to rocks and Luke’s ship, so cybernetics and limb removal wouldn’t neuter jack shit. Mf literally created plot holes just to neuter Vader and make a point about how its evil to have prosthetics I guess.

In the OT, Luke gets a prosthetic hand and its not treated with scorn. It’s used in ROTJ to show how Luke is becoming like his father because he’s repeating the trauma Vader inflicted upon him, and that’s the extent.

This is partially why I prefer current Canon Darth Vader. He gets to be powerful and badass with the suit in the expanded material without any indication that it hampered him (because there’s still awesome EU Vader content, but it still always carries those undertones). In the Lords of the Sith novel it’s even explained that the isolation it brought allowed him to focus on his connection to the Force and therefore make it even stronger. It’s not telling me it would’ve been cooler for him to look like Christensen the whole time instead of the most iconic villain design of all-time.

It feels more true to how he’s presented in the OT. At no point are we supposed to see him as lesser just because he’s a cyborg. In fact, we’re supposed to see him as scarier because of it. It’s literally what makes him Vader. The fact that I see some prequel fans think it would be better for him to not have the suit because then he’d “be at his full potential” (holy shit, how do people not notice how blatantly ableist that is?) hurts my soul.

Yeah, comparing screenshots, Coruscant in TPM looks more McQuarrie and OT-esqe then the other two, comparing it to his concept art for Had Abbadon. Not perfect (Had Abbadon looks a bit more ancient, more in line with the OT aesthetic) but I can definitely see it.

As films in isolation I really wish they went for a more matte painting aesthetic. I know doing so would have a ripple effect on film history for the worst, but just judging the films, I miss the matte paintings of the OT and would take them over the digital backgrounds any day of the week.

If Lucas really wanted to tout his 6 film saga as meshing perfectly together (it doesn’t), at least attempt to make it not look like it was made decades later.

Is this a matte painting in The Phantom Menace?

Honestly I’m starting to think Coruscant in TPM looks better then in the other two.

Anyway my opinion on this is I don’t care. If something comes that I think is amazing I’ll love it. But I’m satisfied with the Original Trilogy, Darth Vader Canon comics (especially Soule’s 2017 run), and any other expanded material I find myself liking (I want to get into more books and comics; not to use as plugs for the movies, but to appreciate on their own right).

I can’t even really say I want them to make a Darth Vader show or something, because the Kenobi show showed me they don’t even understand Vader as established in the Canon comics (which I find to mesh really well with the OT). I trust my broke college ass to achieve my dream to adapt my favorite arc from the comics into a fan-film at a sluggish pace more then I trust the people who make these shows.

Channel72 said:

Yeah, that is exactly how most Prequel fans defend this.

To be fair, again, he thinks they’re bad movies, he just enjoys them. He tears into a lot of the movie quite a bit. But perhaps some of the overly charitable defenses are coming from his subjective enjoyment and familiarity with the old EU.

Channel72 said:

Or they say “it doesn’t matter, it’s just background details”. Except, it’s not background details. It’s actually like… the entire plot. Plinkett emphasizes this at one point, saying something like (paraphrasing) “the Trade Federation invading Naboo is the entire plot of the movie so it’s important to understand what everyone’s motivation is and why they’re doing it.” I recall countless debates about this on online forums in the “Dark Age” pre-social media era of the Internet.

The Phantom Menace portrays the Trade Federation as the bad guys, and shows us Trade Federation armies marching through Naboo and bossing people around. We know they’re the bad guys, and the entire movie revolves around defeating them and freeing Naboo. But it’s hilarious how nobody can provide a straight answer to the question “WHY are they even invading Naboo at all?” Possible Prequel-defense answers include:

• “Because taxes!”
• “Because Palpatine told them to! Also taxes!”
• “OMFG can’t you read?? it’s all in the opening crawl!”
• “Here’s my fan-fiction 10,000 word essay explaining Palpatine’s plan OMG it’s so obvious”
• “It’s so obvious this is all explained in 5 EU novels you’ll never read”
• “LMFAO OMG you’re so stupid this movie is for kids I understood it when I was 10”, etc.

This I definitely agree with. First time I was watching I didn’t really understand anything. “Why is the Trade company being taxed to trade? What’s a trade route in space, doesn’t everybody just fly around? It’s space, there’s no traffic? This trade company has an army? What the fuck? And why this planet?”

And yeah the gaslighting technique where come up with so much with no direct reference from the movie but then go “It’s so obvious!” is really annoying. I’m not immune necessarily, maybe you could say the same with my defenses for Luke’s plan in ROTJ, but at least for that everything I say is based on direct lines from the movie.