G&G-Fan

This looks really cool, I’d love to have it.

NFBisms said:

“He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil” from Ben is kind of where I’m getting the OT’s thematic vilification of prosthetics. It’s both about the inflicted trauma and the corruption of nature via technology. I don’t think it’s out and out ableist in the same way - because it does make Vader more scary in the OT - but I guess an unfortunate unintended message is that disabled people are unnatural or evil. Which isn’t better lol

Yeah you’re right. Personally, I prefer to interpret the line as more symbolic: Darth Vader sold his soul and became a cold-hearted, almost machine-like man. But I understand it’s not the intent.

I don’t have a problem with Vader being a cyborg being used to make him scarier, because he’s a villain, he defines his suit rather then it defining him. He chooses to look scary and be evil. Luke’s cybernetic hand allows him to see that he’s inflicting the same trauma and chooses to not use it for evil, and there aren’t sinister undertones when he’s first fitted with it. Lobot isn’t necessarily slighted.

Not necessarily in line with Lucas’ intent, but I stopped looking at the movies the same way Lucas does a long time ago (and honestly never really did, as I realized the more I read his quotes). It helps that he can’t ever stick to a narrative and the other directors conflicted with him sometimes. Fan interpretation conflicting with the intent of the director happens quite often (see Ridley Scott’s Alien prequels). Part of the beauty of film is interpretation, and I’ll always love the OT as I interpret them.

But there isn’t any way to spin, “He’ll never be as good at what he does as he could because he’s a cyborg” in a way that isn’t negative framing of prosthetics.

I’m curious as to what Vader’s voice is gonna sound like in the HD version. The original, the SE one more in-line with ESB and ROTJ, a new modified version of one of those two?

Lucas spent too much time on the wrong things. There was no reason to dedicate so much screentime to Qui-Gon, 9 y/o Anakin, Anakin’s mom, the Trade Federation, Jango Fett, the clones origin, assassination plot and Anidala romance being as drawn out as possible, the amount of battles that are just experimenting/showcasing with the new CG (TPM did not need 4 fucking battles). Too many characters (esp having a new villain for every movie), subplots, random world expansion, they’re underdeveloped because the scripts are crammed, unlike the originals which have more simplistic plots and thus have time to fully flesh out their ideas and focus on the characters, the meat of the story. You can rewrite the prequels with similar overall story but simpler plots. The only way to actually make good movies with every element from the prequel screenplays is to make it a TV show.

How about just having Obi-Wan find Anakin? No point where Owen and Anakin actually have a brotherly relationship and have contrasting ideas? A slower turn to the dark side? More screentime with Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends? Seeing Darth Vader actually hunt down and kill Jedi?

NFBisms said:

most positive depiction of cybernetics in the franchise

I don’t think the OT is negative about cybernetics on it’s own. As I edited into my initial post, Luke’s robot hand isn’t treated as sinister. When he puts it on it’s playing jovial music. In ROTJ it’s used as a symbol that he’s repeating the trauma inflicted upon him by Vader. It’s not necessarily the hand itself but the context paired with costuming symbolism.

In the OT, Vader being a cyborg is used to make him more imposing, not less. Vader is such a force to be reckoned with because not only is he powerful in the Force but because of his cybernetics he can do things like lift a grown man off the ground with one hand. It doesn’t explicitly neuter him, and is used to make him a greater villain, not lesser. Which is why I say Canon Vader is more like OT Vader in spirit.

Also, Lobot is a cyborg. Basically, cybernetics aren’t inherently bad, it’s about who’s using them, and they aren’t a weakness.

But in the prequels, it straight up has ableist undertones. Both Grievous’ cowardly nature and the retcons he does to Vader where he’s weaker because he’s a cyborg are both in the service of “prosthetics bad”. And there’s no characters framed as completely good that are cyborgs. Maybe Lucas had the same opinion when making both, but it doesn’t surface in the OT in an inherently negative light.

I recently kinda realized the way Lucas frames cybernetic prosthetics as inherently sinister and lesser during the prequel era has ableist undertones whether intentional or not. Vader’s suit specifically is a great iconic of evil, it’s the suit of a villain and it looks scary. But simply being a cyborg should not be treated with such scorn as Lucas does.

His explanation for Vader losing power just because he’s a cyborg isn’t even consistent with HIS OWN exposition in both trilogies. Midichlorians are measured per cell, and Yoda in ESB literally says the Force even flows and binds us to rocks and Luke’s ship, so cybernetics and limb removal wouldn’t neuter jack shit. Mf literally created plot holes just to neuter Vader and make a point about how its evil to have prosthetics I guess.

In the OT, Luke gets a prosthetic hand and its not treated with scorn. It’s used in ROTJ to show how Luke is becoming like his father because he’s repeating the trauma Vader inflicted upon him, and that’s the extent.

This is partially why I prefer current Canon Darth Vader. He gets to be powerful and badass with the suit in the expanded material without any indication that it hampered him (because there’s still awesome EU Vader content, but it still always carries those undertones). In the Lords of the Sith novel it’s even explained that the isolation it brought allowed him to focus on his connection to the Force and therefore make it even stronger. It’s not telling me it would’ve been cooler for him to look like Christensen the whole time instead of the most iconic villain design of all-time.

It feels more true to how he’s presented in the OT. At no point are we supposed to see him as lesser just because he’s a cyborg. In fact, we’re supposed to see him as scarier because of it. It’s literally what makes him Vader. The fact that I see some prequel fans think it would be better for him to not have the suit because then he’d “be at his full potential” (holy shit, how do people not notice how blatantly ableist that is?) hurts my soul.

Yeah, comparing screenshots, Coruscant in TPM looks more McQuarrie and OT-esqe then the other two, comparing it to his concept art for Had Abbadon. Not perfect (Had Abbadon looks a bit more ancient, more in line with the OT aesthetic) but I can definitely see it.

As films in isolation I really wish they went for a more matte painting aesthetic. I know doing so would have a ripple effect on film history for the worst, but just judging the films, I miss the matte paintings of the OT and would take them over the digital backgrounds any day of the week.

If Lucas really wanted to tout his 6 film saga as meshing perfectly together (it doesn’t), at least attempt to make it not look like it was made decades later.

Is this a matte painting in The Phantom Menace?

Honestly I’m starting to think Coruscant in TPM looks better then in the other two.

Anyway my opinion on this is I don’t care. If something comes that I think is amazing I’ll love it. But I’m satisfied with the Original Trilogy, Darth Vader Canon comics (especially Soule’s 2017 run), and any other expanded material I find myself liking (I want to get into more books and comics; not to use as plugs for the movies, but to appreciate on their own right).

I can’t even really say I want them to make a Darth Vader show or something, because the Kenobi show showed me they don’t even understand Vader as established in the Canon comics (which I find to mesh really well with the OT). I trust my broke college ass to achieve my dream to adapt my favorite arc from the comics into a fan-film at a sluggish pace more then I trust the people who make these shows.

Channel72 said:

Yeah, that is exactly how most Prequel fans defend this.

To be fair, again, he thinks they’re bad movies, he just enjoys them. He tears into a lot of the movie quite a bit. But perhaps some of the overly charitable defenses are coming from his subjective enjoyment and familiarity with the old EU.

Channel72 said:

Or they say “it doesn’t matter, it’s just background details”. Except, it’s not background details. It’s actually like… the entire plot. Plinkett emphasizes this at one point, saying something like (paraphrasing) “the Trade Federation invading Naboo is the entire plot of the movie so it’s important to understand what everyone’s motivation is and why they’re doing it.” I recall countless debates about this on online forums in the “Dark Age” pre-social media era of the Internet.

The Phantom Menace portrays the Trade Federation as the bad guys, and shows us Trade Federation armies marching through Naboo and bossing people around. We know they’re the bad guys, and the entire movie revolves around defeating them and freeing Naboo. But it’s hilarious how nobody can provide a straight answer to the question “WHY are they even invading Naboo at all?” Possible Prequel-defense answers include:

• “Because taxes!”
• “Because Palpatine told them to! Also taxes!”
• “OMFG can’t you read?? it’s all in the opening crawl!”
• “Here’s my fan-fiction 10,000 word essay explaining Palpatine’s plan OMG it’s so obvious”
• “It’s so obvious this is all explained in 5 EU novels you’ll never read”
• “LMFAO OMG you’re so stupid this movie is for kids I understood it when I was 10”, etc.

This I definitely agree with. First time I was watching I didn’t really understand anything. “Why is the Trade company being taxed to trade? What’s a trade route in space, doesn’t everybody just fly around? It’s space, there’s no traffic? This trade company has an army? What the fuck? And why this planet?”

And yeah the gaslighting technique where come up with so much with no direct reference from the movie but then go “It’s so obvious!” is really annoying. I’m not immune necessarily, maybe you could say the same with my defenses for Luke’s plan in ROTJ, but at least for that everything I say is based on direct lines from the movie.

Director said:

I am going to make changes mostly to the vfx but I can change some of the canon by example adding a StarWars planet near the Death Star etc.

A what planet?

Anakin Starkiller said:

I genuinely don’t believe Lucas intended TPM to be viewed first and personally think that’s an incorrect viewing order for first time viewers (I prefer doing chronological rewatches).

He literally said it’s meant to be watched 1-6 on camera (Chosen One featurette).

I agree that first time viewers need to watch the original trilogy first. That’s not what’s up for debate.

Yeah I agree, strange since he still agrees it’s a bad movie.

He went on like a 10 minute tangent about how determinism ruins Star Wars when it’s very simple: it’s soft-determinism. As Lucas says, “We all have a destiny, if we choose to follow it.” The Force test’s people’s characters and their choices determine their fate. Like how Luke fulfilled his destiny while Anakin/Vader didn’t until 23 years later. The Force has a will but is not omnipotent. It’s like a river. Also, it was introduced in the OT.

And in the same video he says TPM should be judged in the context of having seen the OT first, but then also later admits that Lucas wanted this to be the first movie. It should be judged as the latter, which is where the movie becomes even worse, because it’s a bad introduction to Star Wars.

Servii said:

That side of the fandom has shrunken a lot over the past ten years.

Unfortunately it’s shrunken so much that people can’t seem to separate the originals from the prequels and a lot of the actual subtext in the originals themselves are lost on them due to being retconned (I used to be one of those!). So you could be talking about the same movie but not actually. Which is a shame because the originals separate from the prequels are better.

Something that’s insane to me is that Lucas when making the Prequels’ attitude towards Darth Vader. He spends the entire trilogy neutering the hell out of him, telling us he was a brat and that his iconic badass suit was actually hampering him (which doesn’t make any sense with how he established the Force to work), and even making him pathetically whine “Nooo!” like a cartoon. He doesn’t do this to any other villain. But at the same time, he gave into how much of a sensation Vader is by plastering him all over the advertising and making the entire saga surround him. It’s like he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a creator have such a contradictory mindset about a character.

First attempt of the new opera scene: https://youtu.be/A_h13JYRSBk

New Palpatine lines done by Ryan Golden

Palpatine doesn’t criticize the Jedi by saying they don’t trust democracy. It’s subtle but the less he makes himself look like a hypocrite in his early attempts at manipulation, the more believable Anakin’s turn is. Palpatine and Anakin’s almost unspoken opinion is that a dictatorship is better, so there’s no need to pretend in their private conversations.
Anakin is quicker to dispel Palpatine’s claims about the Jedi. This is also the only time Palpatine tries to sow doubts of the Jedi in Anakin. As said in my cut list, he ditches that and goes straight to Anakin’s desire for power over death. This exchange now serves to outright prove that Anakin/Vader has no illusions about the Jedi and Sith’s morality.
New Palpatine lines have been implemented so he says Plagueis was able to keep himself and his apprentice from dying rather then “the ones he cared about”, and that Plagueis was killed by his apprentice in his sleep before he could heal himself (to explain why he couldn’t resurrect himself; the idea was that the wound was just too quick and severe for him to have used the power quick enough).
Used Anakin looks of curiosity to smooth over the line delivery and also make his intrigue clear.
This is just a first draft. I’m aware that the change is a little jarring for now.

First attempt at new pre-duel Mustafar scene: https://youtu.be/KV4CaKMZ8I8

Vader isn’t pinning any blame on the Jedi or Obi-Wan. He’s cold about his actions and mad Padme found out (because earlier he lied).
He doesn’t go on a diatribe about how “his new Empire” has created “peace, justice…” to attempt to justify his actions (which would be fine if it was Padme, but it’s clear he’s saying it to himself, which isn’t Vader).
Lots of cheesy lines gone.
I think I’ve done a good job making this feel more like Vader, though I know some of the musical transitions are rough.

Also updated changelist on first page.

It’s subtle things like how Darth Vader refers to everyone by their rank, species (in the case of Chewie), or last names, even his own son. He mostly calls him “Skywalker” (until the end). Can you imagine calling your own son by his last name? It’s almost dehumanizing, showing how Vader views everyone as tools, objects. Not only that, it shows how much he has mentally disconnected himself from everyone around him. His ability to empathize with anyone (until his son, in sparse moments until his redemption) has gone cold. He’s separated himself so much from Anakin in his mind that it’s not awkward for him at all to refer to his son by just his own last name like it would be for a normal person. In his mind, he’s just Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker doesn’t have meaning for him (or at least, he acts like it doesn’t).

philraid said:

Some cast members also overlap with the Hammer movies because Peter Cushing played Dr. Frankenstein and Professor Van Helsing, David Prowse played Frankenstein’s monster, and Christopher Lee played Count Dracula (why else is he named COUNT Dooku?)

Yeah that too. Dooku is almost entirely a Dracula reference. Palpatine is also Dracula like in some ways. Even RLM noticed how Dracula-like he is in the Knighting of Vader scene.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I’ve never picked up on any Universal Monsters references in Star Wars or Indiana Jones for that matter.

Vader getting his suit in ROTS is the most obvious Frankenstein reference I’ve ever seen.

I’ve said this a couple times, but the idea of Anakin becoming Vader because he wants the power of immortality really should’ve been flying into Lucas’ face. It’s so obvious.

Darth Vader is so scary partially because he’s almost “undead”. He’s breathing, but it’s mechanical. He has a mask that looks like a skull. He’s always either cold or rageful, sometimes briefly sad. He’s surviving, but is he really alive?

What’s a reoccurring theme in the Universal Monster movies Lucas loves to reference? Dracula, Frankenstein, the Mummy? Immortality. It’s perfect. In the original 1932 Mummy, Imhotep was sentenced to death for pursuing forbidden knowledge to resurrect his dead lover. His goal is for him and her to live forever. Sound familiar?

Anakin should’ve become Vader partially because he wanted the power for him and Padme to live forever. But in doing so, he gives up his humanity and kills her.

oohteedee’s D+77, 80 and 83. They look amazing and feel authentic to the theatrical cuts.

New plans for the Vader scene for this edit.

This is the first edit of Vader’s no (turned into an angry yell) that actually works. Someone actually did it. I’m quite impressed, honestly.
https://youtu.be/G8V0-vRYOAU

It matches better with the 2017 Darth Vader comics, which I always intended to be canon to my edits. They are my favorite Star Wars material after the OT, genuinely incredible stuff that understands Vader so well.

It starts with Vader angrily attacking Palpatine for failing his promise to save Padme, which is great. Vader’s rage is done similarly to his OT cold, tranquil rage (as generally for the comic) whilst also being fitting for this younger, angrier Vader that still feels like the same person (he’s even a bit more emotional in ANH then ESB and ROTJ).

While I liked the idea of having Vader just go cold upon hearing Padme’s death for the edit’s own sake, because I didn’t see a better alternative, it’s when I came across this new edit that I realized that including an angry reaction from Vader in the film itself could work and be in-line with the comic.

I also wasn’t entirely sure how to bookend the scene, originally. The scene is designed for a bigger payoff, so I didn’t want it to just end on Vader’s new line, but nothing else felt right.

I also feel like the intent could’ve easily gotten across wrong. The original plan of Vader saying his dead wife now means nothing to him wasn’t meant to be entirely honest, but rather another instance of using his cold persona to bury his feelings (like in ROTJ).

In the Vader comics, though it isn’t his focus until the final arc, Vader attempts to resurrect her, and the way it executes it is excellent. He’s still Vader, cold, selfish, and most importantly, in this instance, possessive, as he was of his children, in the OT. He wants to resurrect her to keep her as an object of lust in a very Sith fashion. The Emperor doesn’t even object to it. It’s brilliant, creepy, and expands on an already existent facet of Vader’s character, which is one of the many reasons why Fortress Vader is my favorite arc in an incredible comic run.

While the original version could still mesh with the comics on that front, I feel like the angry yell fits better with the overall throughline of the comic.

That being said, I would like to “de-soften” Vader when he says, “Where is Padme?”, especially removing him saying, “Is she safe, is she alright?”. It doesn’t feel in-character even for a possessive Vader. It almost feels like it wants me to think that this is Anakin and he doesn’t become Vader until the very last scene observing the Death Star… but then why does he have him act like Vader when he’s first knighted, and when he visits Padme after the massacre? He should be Vader when he’s in the mask. Seeing him act like Anakin here is so jarring.

Might be a bit unrelated, but in your spreadsheet, you say “Ambush” is terrible. Tbh I don’t really get it. It’s not a masterclass episode or anything but it’s fun to see Yoda get to be jovial and bond with some clones. I don’t really see what makes it terrible.

Going back to this thread, I made some really dumb arguments that stem from a lack of understanding of nuance of certain terms, even if I made the occasional decent point. I was also rather patronizing in the way that I argued many of my points.

Darth Vader in the OT is a mostly very cold character with a calm, collected demeanor. He uses his boiling rage as a blunt weapon, wielding it in a calculating manner, as he does in his duels with Luke. He’s clearly mad when he, for example, kills one of his officers, or barrages Luke with powerful lightsaber strikes, but never loses control. It’s directed rage, not blind, unhinged rage.

While I did understand that he’s a tactful character who uses his rage in a balanced way, I never meant to imply he has unhinged temper tantrums, but I exaggerated the degree to which Vader is an emotional character.

I think I misinterpreted some’s arguments as saying he has no emotion at all, which is just not true, but I went too far in my rebuttal, as well as projecting emotions in some scenes where there weren’t any. For example, Vader is clearly didn’t lose his cool when he chokes Motti. He is completely calm.

Just wanted to clarify how my views have changed.

NeverarGreat said:

Han, Leia, Luke, and Antilles are all members of the Rebellion, so I assume that Vader, like the Empire, is treating them like unprivileged combatants (spies and whatnot).

It doesn’t matter when Vader does something like lean in close to savor an unarmed prisoner being tortured and coldly joking about it.

The Empire is evil, tyrannical, their laws are immoral. The Rebels in the OT are morally innocent people fighting for altruistic purposes, freedom. Vader knows it. The distinction between Vader being covered by Imperial law for sadistically torturing or killing said rebels for selfish reasons because they’re “unprivileged combatants” and doing exactly that despite Imperial law say nothing about his morality. How cold he is in his heart. It isn’t morally different from doing the same thing to a civilian. Especially when it’s said he willingly joined said Empire, betrayed and murdered righteous Jedi Knights because he wanted power for himself. He never makes moral or legal cases for his actions, or hesitates when it’s not his son.

Vader threatened to “find new ways to motivate” DSII workers. Many of those likely aren’t in the know, construction workers that could have families (I doubt there’s enough evil people in the galaxy to get that done in 4 years). Jerjerrod is shown to be concerned with fair conditions for his workers, not to mention his cut material. He likely joined the Empire because of propaganda. When they want to make a point of an Imperial concerned about the law and justice, they do it.

NeverarGreat said:

Lando is harboring Rebellion fighters and is also running an illegal gas mining operation that has military uses, so it makes sense that the Empire would crack down on that.

The Empire arrived first. Everything he did to house the rebels was according to their plan.

Yeah, their mining operation was illegal. Yet, not only did they have no tie to the rebellion until ROTJ nor an army, thus are not combatants, but the wider point is how Vader gloats about the situation, changes the deal, and doesn’t hold up his end.

NeverarGreat said:

Compare Vader’s actions in the OT with Thrawn’s actions at the end of Rebels, where Thrawn holds a city of innocents hostage and begins to destroy them to prove a point. Vader in the OT never indiscriminately kills civilians merely because one of them might be a Rebel.

We don’t see the Emperor do anything like that in the OT either, that doesn’t mean that the clear formal elements framing him as worse don’t matter.

He doesn’t do that because there’s not any point in the plot for him to.

NeverarGreat said:

Sure, presumably Vader could have given the order and their deaths are ultimately on his hands, but it’s notable how we don’t see him do this. The movie doesn’t show their deaths, and I think it’s effective in conveying that the Empire killed them, which is all Luke needs to know in order to join the Rebellion.

Including a scene of Vader ordering their deaths would ruin the pacing and surprise of seeing their dead bodies. The perspective through which their deaths should be seen is Luke’s, he’s the protagonist.

The formal elements depict Darth Vader as an imposing, powerful villain with agency. As I said, “Everything from his skull-like mask, to the way his deal with Lando is treated like a deal with the devil, to the way the carbon freezing chamber is meant to look like Hell.” In addition, his depiction as a horror villain in control in every scene in said chamber. He has his own duplicitous scheme to overthrow the Emperor for entirely selfish, immoral reasons. Yoda and Obi-Wan emphasize the importance of defeating Vader just as much as the Emperor.

NeverarGreat said:

Your previous points are debatable, but I think this one is just wrong. Vader says that ‘The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.’ Vader isn’t saying that he feels threatened by this station, but just that the Force is so much stronger than anything the Empire could produce. His statement is a (prophetic) warning against the Empire’s hubris and a statement of his religion’s faith, which is why the officer rebuts him by calling out his ‘sad devotion to that ancient religion.’

He’s too egotistical to outright say he feels threatened by it, though it wasn’t the wisest of me to bring in an interpretation mostly supported by outside material.
Personally, I believe Vader is right, the Force is stronger then the Death Star, and what you’ve outlined about the intent behind the dialogue is true. I acknowledge that my argument there wasn’t entirely strong when looking at the film in isolation, though maintain that lines can be multilayered.

Something I didn’t consider. The way Vader goes, “There will be no one to stop us this time!” in a victorious tone when talking about recovering the plans from the pod on Tatooine, and how heated he is in that opening sequence, I don’t think the film itself was attempting to say Vader is against the Death Star’s existance. Vader undermining it’s power by saying it pails in comparison to his own and that the Imperials are overestimating themselves are just that.

NeverarGreat said:

This is another instance where the prequels do a disservice to the OT. In the original film, Vader was clearly subservient to Tarkin, who was himself subservient to the Emperor. Leia even cracks a joke at how Vader is Tarkin’s lap dog.

Regardless of whether Vader could have physically done anything to stop the Death Star, there’s no indication that he had the influence with the Emperor to survive that action. Saying that he was responsible for Alderaan is the same as saying that Reactor Control Technician #4 was responsible for Alderaan. They could both have thrown a spanner into the works, but their culpability is far superseded by that of Tarkin and the Emperor.

Leveling with this by disregarding anything but the OT alone in terms of Vader’s power both within the Empire and in the Force.

Vader is still selfishly prioritizing his own life by actively taking part in the destruction of a planet full of innocent civilians by bringing Leia to him and restraining her. In addition, Vader is shown within the film to have command over every Imperial officer except Tarkin, the Emperor is not present, his Force abilities establish he is physically more powerful then anybody else on the Death Star. He could claim Tarkin was subverting the Emperor in attempting to destroy a world without jurisdiction to test his project, lie to the Emperor about the circumstances of his death. It’s his word against anyone else’s. Alternatively, he could flee, leak information, inspire rebellions, even just to take over himself. I don’t believe the filmmakers intended to take agency away from Vader, but develop Tarkin. He’s not as culpable as Tarkin, but still.

The culpability of Reactor Control Technician #4 is dependent on the amount of information he has. Vader had all of it.

NeverarGreat said:

But that’s just the point; it doesn’t matter how he was corrupted or seduced, it only matters that he was at one time a ‘good man’, and the prequels show that is just not the case.

They didn’t do a good job with that element in the Prequels, but that’s ultimately a separate discussion as I wasn’t defending the overall execution of the Prequels.

NeverarGreat said:

Genocide is defined as (among other things) the systematic killing of many people of one race or ethnicity, and often specifically because of their race or ethnicity.

“I killed them. I killed them all. And not just the men, but the women, and the children. I killed them all. They’re animals. And I slaughtered them like animals.”

I don’t think the children had anything to do with killing Anakin’s mother. The point of the scene is to show how Anakin went out of his way to kill everyone in that tribe, specifically because they were Tuskens, a group of people that he viewed as not worthy of being persons. I’d call that genocide.

I overlooked the full implications of the line and the fact that he killed Tusken children. So yes, he did kill children before becoming a Sith. I acknowledge my mistake, even if my point was not to defend the creative choice.

I apologize for any potential appearance of aggression or disingenuousness or if I have misframed any of your arguments in this or the previous reply.

SparkySywer said:

G&G Fan, is your opinion that Vader killing the younglings is a good storytelling choice or that it just isn’t a new low for him?

Mostly the latter. The former heavily depends on execution, but it’s not a good choice in the film as it’s scripted, structured, presented, etc. Another thing to be considered is tact.

Channel72 said:

Also, for a decade before the Prequels, I heard these tantalizing rumors about Anakin Skywalker as this bad-ass Jedi-killer assassin. So when I finally saw him depicted as such in ROTS, only to see him killing a room full of defenseless kids, it just seemed… I don’t know… kind of pathetic. (Cue Prequel defense team: “that’s the point you idiot, didn’t you even watch the Prequels? Stop idolizing Darth Vader, etc. etc. etc.”)

That was originally gonna be the plan, back in the 80s. For him to gradually kill of Jedi one by one.

And yeah, this whole “Vader is just pathetic” thing bothers me. Yes, I get that underneath Vader’s cold persona and Force power, he’s miserable. But that presence he has is still there and serves a purpose. You don’t introduce a villain the way you introduce Vader if he’s just supposed to be “pathetic”.