Gaffer Tape

So is the center image a Mini Boy George or a Mini Lisa Bonet...?

Yeah, I'm liking B's solution.  BRING IT ON!!!

Even better is that Miles O'Brien isn't stretched out to fit the TV!

Warbler said:

I'm bored and depressed  : (

Same here...

Even Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is sci-fi, so I can certainly see WarGames being put in the same label.

Happy Birthday!

Yeah, I gave up on that game.  Gave me a headache.

It's probably just some kid with too much time on his hands.

Well, since so many posters are getting restless and are about to nerf themselves from the game...

THREAD IS OPEN!!!

Bardass

Speaking of A Clockwork Orange, sfdebris just did his review of Star Trek Generations, and I love how he started playing "Singin' in the Rain" when Soran was beating up on Picard.

"Crappy reality TV show"?  That sounds a bit redundant...

Nanner Split said:

So I managed to find an NES, with all the cords, 2 controllers, and a copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 stowing away inside of it all for $20 last week. I had some problems with the blinking power light, so I replaced the 72 pin connector and it works like new now. First goal: beat Bionic Commando. Also Dr. Mario, Zelda 1 and 2 and Balloon Fight are in the mail.

 

It's gonna be a good week.

Awesome.  I've had my NES for nearly 21 years, and it still works pretty well, but I have been considering replacing the pin connectors for the better part of a decade now.  It still works, but it has been finnicky for quite some time.

TV's Frink said:

cutnshut said:

Yeah Gaff, argue with that!

Why would I argue with the fact that my debating skills are so packed with awesome they made cutnshut explode?

cutnshut said:

Princess - regardless who wrote it, the scene can still be removed without destroying the movie - therefore i find it hard to believe that this idea was originally the main plot of the movie.

But... that's not at all what we're talking about in this thread.  I'm sure there are lots of scenes from any Star Wars movie I could remove and have it make sense or even improve it (Jabba the Hutt stuff, I'm looking at you).  But we're analyzing what's there, not what we'd prefer to be there, not what could have been there, not what wasn't there, and not what we think Lucas had or hadn't come up with at that point.

Now I just think you did a little too much Gungan...

As Imagination Princess of this forum, I am not sure I condone imagining that.

But I understood that you thought i was talking from an audience point of view, but it is kind of the only way anyone except George Lucas can view it becuase only George Lucas knew exactly what he thought at the time of writing the movie.

Not if you're talking about analysis of plot structure.  If you're a first-time viewer, then, sure, you're not going to know the twists and turns or surprises.  But in order to properly analyze how a story works, you do have to know everything in context and place that information back where it belongs.

But the way i read the script of ESB and understood it is that, its like a cliff hanger......is he or isnt he???? and a tacked on one at that... it would still have been a great action movie with out the father son thing...however adding that thematic element later on proved to be a good idea ...as it gave the movie a whole new dramatic edge to it. Poor old George still didnt know what he was gonna do with the next movie tho.

Yeah.  He did write it in a way that leaves it open enough for ambiguity that he could have abandoned ship in the next film if he'd wanted to, no question, but I'm not sure where you're going with that.  Even if we are to assume that the movie was written to be teetering on the brink of one or the other, with one as potentially valid as the other, the fact still remains that one side is ultimately chosen and the other discarded.  It's not like the original Star Wars where the father interpretation doesn't exist at all.

 

So to sum up finally, I don't think the way it is written you can assume darth vader is anakin skywalker - and it was only a handfull of scenes that were added into the movie to insert the father son story -  I dont think the movie was re-written when George Lucas got the idea he just added a few more scenes to put it in there. 

 

Well, here's where we disagree.  It seems we both agree that George Lucas, as a writer, has hack-like tendencies and often screws himself over in his ability to properly plot.  But you seem to think he's so much of a hack he would just throw in a major plot element without bothering to rewrite the rest of the script to accommodate that? ...  Come to think of it, if we were talking about Revenge of the Sith, you'd be proven completely correct, as he did do exactly that.  But in ESB-era, Lucas was surrounded by intelligent people and co-writers, and, by looking at the scripts, you can see that he did alter things for this new context.  I mean, it's not like he had any scenes on Dagobah where Luke talks to the ghost of his dead father... which were indeed in the first draft.  It was actually quite early on that he came up with the idea, after Leigh Brackett's first draft.

So, yeah, while my opinion of Lucas is quite low, my opinion of Lawrence Kasdan is less so.  So even if we do accept that Lucas was so poor a writer he didn't bother to adapt his story for an entirely new context, it's impossible to even suggest that Kasdan would not have had all the appropriate knowledge in his head before he sat down to write the actual screenplay.  So, yes, that context would had to have been there throughout.

Is Alec Guiness in that ball?  Is that what everyone's looking at?

Bingowings said:

Back in the '60s he was part of the peace movement at Berkeley. I think he did a little too much LDS.

I think you did a little too much LDS; otherwise, you'd remember that it was the free speech movement.

Yeah, xhonzi... I prefer Alec Guiness myself.

bkev is confusing me.  What the hell's going on?  Please explain!!!

You disagree that a movie is written in the context of itself?  I'm... very confused.  How could it be any other way?  The universe is folding in on itself.  The laws of writing fiction are being, well, rewritten.  How does this make sense?!  PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!

I think you're confused with what I'm saying.  I don't think Xhonzi is, and I surely am not thinking of ESB in context of its later sequels or prequels or novels or anything else.  I'm purely thinking of it in context of itself.  And at the time of its release, for that entire film, Vader is written to be Luke's father.  Just because the audience is not made aware of it until the end of the film doesn't mean it's not there.  In fact, it would be impossible for it not to be there, unless you know of some way to update a movie in the middle of itself, something I admit I'm at a loss to figure out.

Let me clarify.  The way you're talking, this is what's coming across to me.  Let's say we're talking about Star Wars.  There's a scene a third of the way through the film where Ben reveals to Luke that a young Jedi named Darth Vader killed Luke's father.  Based on what you've said so far, it seems like I should assume you think that, before Ben says that, the information is not only unknown to Luke and to us, but it's also completely non-existant.  That it's some kind of cosmic ripple effect, and that, in all of Darth Vader's scenes prior to that, there is absolutely no connection between him and Luke's father, but after Ben says that, every subsequent Vader scene has that connection.  And... that's just... odd.

cutnshut said:

Ok lets argue!

In ESB there is no certainty that Darth Vader is Lukes Father - In the original theatrical movie which is the only version that counts untill, Adywan releases his!. There is no character development of Darth Vader happening off screen or otherwise... as a character he just wasnt designed like that - he is purely a villain - he starts off a villain and he ends a villain. All the crawl says about Luke and Vader is that "Vader is obssessed with finding Luke Skywalker" nothing else..... During the conversation with the Emperor, Vader never refers to Luke as his son. (remember at this point, all the audience knows is that Anakin Skywalker was killed by Darth Vader).

During the fight with Luke....he tells Luke hes his son....but i dont think anyone really believed that untill return of the jedi was made. So i wouldnt call it proper character development. It is certainly character Development for Luke because what Vader say's has some emotional impact on him.....but Vader is unchanged by anythning that happens here.

previously i said that Darth Vader's character development is him being redeemed.

But now i think his whole character development for Vader begins - when Luke surrenders to the imps and they are brought together again. Then Vaders character does start to change....

What the audience knows or doesn't know is totally irrelevant to the characters.  While I truly do believe that Lucas was making up shit as he went along, as of ESB, Vader is Luke's father, and all of his actions in that film are motivated by that.  At the beginning of that film, it's clear he already knows, which means that he would have had to have learned this at some point in between the first two films.

I find it funny you're arguing with me about this considering the only reason I brought this point was because I was supporting your earlier statement:  Vader had no character development in ESB because if there was any development it would have had to have happened beforehand.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case.  The knowledge might not have affected him in the slightest at this point.  But I admit I do find it a bit baffling that you seem to think it has anything to do with what the audience is aware of at any given time, as if Vader realized that Luke was his son at the same time the audience was given that information (ie, through Vader saying it!).

DRAW TWO