Gaffer Tape

lordjedi said:

I doubt that Luke would have killed everybody willy nilly.  That would have truly been something of the dark side.  No, Luke was only going to kill the people that were attacking them.  If you notice on the sail barge, I believe Luke lets a few of them run away because they aren't attacking anymore.  If he were hell bent on killing everyone, why let those few run away?

Yes, but you forget that, even if he did let some of them run away, he did end up killing every single person when he blew up the entire sail barge, something that really wasn't necessary.  Anybody who did manage to run away got blown to bits.

All those comments about it being a possible dark side flirtation... that's actually really cool.  I doubt Lucas intended it to be interpreted that way, but, wow, if that had been the case, I think ROTJ would have earned so many points back that it had lost.  First of all, the Jabba stuff would actually have some relevance to the rest of the plot and strengthen what was already a Luke-centric movie by heightening the danger that Luke might turn to the dark side. 

As for what his clothes meant, I do recall reading a quote somewhere from Mark Hamill that said that George showed him that costume stating that it was representative of the Jedi garb of old.

Maybe so, but being able to hear those samples from The Empire Strikes Back's score certainly makes up for any of that.  It's hardly noteworthy today, but that was the first Star Wars game I played that actually sampled the soundtrack.  But, yeah, I loved SOTE as well, and, even though it's been a while since I've read it (and have a hard time remembering it), I don't really remember those weak points that everybody seems to mention.  I'd probably pick it up again right now if I wasn't in the process of reading the X-Wing books for the first time (just starting The Krytos Trap and loving this series, and I can't believe I waited until now to try it!).

Oh, yeah, and SilverWook pointed out something that I was going to say eventually.  That line always confused me, too.  I think we can all agree that 3PO was just hopelessly out of the loop for this entire plan, but would we be able to assume that Chewie had been there before?  If so, why wasn't he captured then, since there was a bounty on him?  But going back even further, if Jabba had a bounty out on Chewbacca as well, why didn't Boba Fett take Chewbacca when he took Han? 

But that line also reminds me of what someone here once said about the whole Jabba scenario, and why it seemed unlikely that he was stationed on Tatooine when The Empire Strikes Back was still the latest movie.  Lando's line is about "finding" Jabba.  If he was a well-known gangster with a palace on Tatooine, that shouldn't be too hard.  So there was some conjecture that Lucas only dumped him on Tatooine when he was writing Return.  Whatever thread that was went into more detail about why it wouldn't make that much sense for Jabba to be on Tatooine, but I guess that's not especially relevant to get into here.

Oh, and see you auntie, it's not that I have a problem that the plans failed.  After all, as I said earlier, if they hadn't failed, I see no way they would have successfully escaped.  My problem is is that I can't understand what their plans were trying to accomplish in the first place, because if any of them succeeded, then they'd be in a more difficult position than they were before.  But I do agree that having them show up in shifts, giving each character an introduction, was good from a dramatic standpoint... it just died a fiery death from a plausible narrative standpoint.

astromech said:

Perhaps Luke's newly built lightsaber had a stun setting so he didn't have to kill - after all, that would lead to the Dark Side.... :p

Silly astromech.  Everybody knows that only killing major characters leads to the dark side.  You can kill as many extras as you want.  But you're right.  Luke must not have done much of the killing.  He just gently nudged them (with his lightsaber) off the skiff into a slow, painful death at the hands of the sarlaac.  Totally different than actually killing them.  ^_~

Heh, yeah, I got what you meant.  Like I said, nothing in the first paragraph of my post made any sense.

But then again, if a group of 15 nameless extras with big guns can come in and do that, surely six main characters, one of whom is a lightsaber-wielding killing machine, one who pulled off some kind of vaguely awesome general-promoting maneuver at the Battle of Tanaab, one who is a swiss army knife of destruction, and one who's a freaking arm-dismembering Wookiee(!) could have accomplished the same thing if their almighty leader wasn't so dead set on getting them all captured, sexually molested, and eaten by not one but two giant monsters!

But I'm honestly beginning to think I made too much of an airtight argument.  I really expected and even hoped someone could come in and go, "Well, really, if you just want to be a hater, you'd overlook this extremely obvious and obviously genius tactical maneuver of..." and proceed to go into this overly technical explanation of how awesome everything about this rescue operation was.

But maybe that's impossible...

Well, maybe it's because of the relationship that Jabba had had with the Old Republic, what with their Jedi Knights saving Little Stinky and all, that Jabba's loyalty would lie with the Empire that took the Republic's place.  Therefore, pressure from the Rebellion would mean nothing!

I know, that doesn't make any sense, but neither does the rest of this!

But here's something that does make sense.  I said earlier that Lando could have simply unfrozen Han.  Has everybody forgotten that he would also have been the most obvious, not to mention qualified, choice?  After all, it was Lando's freezing chamber that put Han away, so surely he would have know the most about safely deactivating it.

Come to think of it what did Lando do besides pull his face mask down so he could more easily see out of his mouth, and then later have to be rescued by Han, the guy Lando was supposed to be rescuing?  Good thing that guy blew up the Death Star...

Okay, you might be right about that, but if you are, it just proves my point even further!  He's giving them away!  I guess the original plan was just to offer up Chewie as a token of goodwill as well, but when he saw how easily Jabba took the droids, he went, "Hey, Leia, screw giving our friends away!  Maybe we can make some money off of this!  Alright.  Here's the plan..."

Luke Skywalker:  first of the new Jedi or entrepreneurial douchebag?  You decide.

Sort of like how we're quickly shooting numerous holes into the plausibility of the first half hour of the movie?  ^_~  But I dunno, I guess Jabba had his barge's weaponry illegally enhanced to have the firepower to blow up municipalities in one shot.  Either that or Luke knew the deck had a small thermal exhaust port that would start a chain reaction and destroy the entire station once Leia fired a shot at it.  I mean, that is kinda his thing.

Yes, the metal bikini is great, and I do enjoy the swashbuckling action towards the end.  But since you bring it up, something that's always bothered me is how seemingly tame it is.  My girlfriend and I recently had an OT viewing session, and we both agreed and laughed over how useless Luke's lightsaber was!  He was killing people left and right, knocking them into the sarlaac pit and slashing through people... yet there was absolutely no dismemberment at all!  It was almost as if he was hitting people with a baseball bat.  He'd hit people with this blade of light that can cut through anything, and they'd just be knocked backwards!  I mean, I know if they'd shown Luke slicing body parts off of dozens of extras, they'd probably have gotten an R rating, but it's just so silly at the same time!

Oh, and I almost forgot.  What right did Luke have to demand Chewbacca's release?  Jabba paid for Chewbacca!  Jabba paid one of Luke's operatives for Chewbacca.  Assuming Leia didn't still have the credits on her when she was captured, would Luke have offered Jabba a refund?  Probably not since he immediately came in with demands and mind tricks.  Geez, is it just me or are the good guys, aside from being incredibly short-sighted and stupid, unnecessarily deceptive and underhanded?

Overall, I see it possible that someone might defend this by saying that they planned for the worst possible scenario.  My rebuttal is that they only planned for the worst possible scenario... and the worst possible scenario in a very specific way.  I mean, really, if any single thing had gone "right" in their plan, then they would have been screwed!

Recently, there was a Battle of Yavin thread discussing the intelligence of the Rebels' attack on the Death Star.  Here, I'm going to do something similar because, after just having thought it through for a few seconds I realize that I can make absolutely no sense of the plan to rescue Han Solo from Jabba in Return of the Jedi.  Maybe someone can help me figure out the logic in their plan.  First, let's go over the sequence of events:

Lando gets a job as a guard (not seen but must predate others)
C-3PO and R2-D2 offer themselves into servitude
Leia hands Chewbacca into custody
Leia attempts to free Han but fails and is put into slavery
Luke attempts to bargain and fails
Luke and co. kill everybody

I mean, the way it all turns out, it works out for the best with Leia killing Jabba, R2 passing Luke his lightsaber, all that stuff, but did Luke really forsee exactly how it would turn out and plan accordingly?  If Luke was so sure that they'd have to fight, why not just go in and slaughter Jabba's forces from the outset rather than sending his friends in one at a time?  Okay, I'm getting off track.  Let me go through this in detail.

Okay, Lando somehow infiltrates the palace and gets a job as a guard.  I can only assume that he was there for reconnaissance:  transmitting data to the rest to better prepare their own attacks.  Alright, fine, I can definitely see the plausibility in that.  Moving on:

C-3PO and R2-D2 present themselves to Jabba.  R2 has a message for Jabba from Luke.  He presumably (and according to Shadows of the Empire definitely) knows that Luke is going to offer them to Jabba in exchange.  R2 is also secretly carrying Luke's lightsaber.  R2 knows everything.  3PO obviously knows absolutely nothing about this plan.  But what if Jabba had been like, "Yeah, sure, that works for me.  You guys stay here, and I'll hand over Han."  Would Luke have made good on his deal and just abandoned the droids?  Sure, I'm certain the good guys didn't expect that to work, but what would they have done if Jabba had agreed to the terms?  Would they have come in and killed everybody anyway in order to get them back?  It seems ridiculous to offer up more hostages when you're trying to get someone out of there already.  But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now and just say that Luke needed a safe place to keep his lightsaber... just in case (because apparently Lando would have been strip searched or something).

Next, Leia (disguised as Boussh) delivers Chewbacca to Jabba for, ultimately, the sum of 35,000 credits.  At first, I can understand this.  Leia needs to earn their trust.  And then, later in the night, she can rescue Han.  But this is where everything up to here falls apart.  Once again, they're diluting their forces and creating an even larger hostage situation... by their own choice.  They're literally giving away their people to Jabba.  I mean, I guess the Alliance was really hurting for credits, so that's why they sold out Chewie?  And why?  Why did they need Leia to unfreeze Han?  They already had three of their own in Jabba's palace who could have done the job.  Hell, why couldn't Lando have just done the very same thing in the very beginning, precluding the need for the droids or Chewbacca or Leia?  And what if Leia had succeeded?  "Come on.  We gotta get you out of here"?  Is Lando, meanwhile, rescuing the droids or Chewbacca from prison?  Seemingly not, since he immediately shows up to apprehend Leia on Jabba's orders.  But even if he was out rescuing people they willingly handed over to the enemy, that's just needlessly complicating things!  Things would have been much more simple if only one person had been in there rather than, at this point, six, including Han!

And then, finally, we have Luke.  Luke does a pretty good job getting by Bib Fortuna.  He attempts to bargain (again) with Jabba, this time in person.  However, he only demands that Han and Chewbacca be released.  He doesn't mention the droids or the very serviceable wench right in front of him.  Once again, what if Jabba had caved?  What if Luke had scared him into letting them go?  Would Luke then have gone, "Oh, yeah, and I'll need those other guys back too"?  Well, obviously, that failed.  Action ensued, that failed as well, so Luke, Han, and Chewie were all scheduled to die.

And we all know the story from there.  Luke gets his lightsaber, mows everybody in his path down, and then, to add insult to injury, blows up the entire ship, leaving not a single survivor (unless you count Boba Fett... maybe).  Unless their intention always was to bring as much carnage and death to Tatooine as humanly possible, that plan had FAIL written all over it.

And they say Jedi don't take revenge.  ^_~

Ooh, sorry to double post, but I just thought of something.  I they managed to get Aykroyd and Ramis to reprise their roles, I wonder why they aren't writing the new script?

Wow, I have a hard time believing this is real, especially after Aykroyd and all the game companies keep saying that the new video game is essentially going to be the sequel that never was/never will be.  Not sure what to think about this, so I guess I'll reserve judgment until I hear a little bit more.

Wow, that was very interesting indeed.  Watching it didn't piss me off as much as a lot of the YouTube commenters seemed to be.  But it's nice to get some alternate perspectives, especially contemporary perspectives when the movie was released.  While we deny to our detractors who accuse of us being nostalgic, you have to admit that there is at least some nostalgia in us, and there's nothing wrong with that.  So it's nice to see that not everyone back in the day loved Star Wars.  I think the guy was wrong, but at the same time, I also find it quite hilarious to put it into perspective.  I'd love to see his reaction to the prequels if he thought that ROTJ was 90% effects with robots fighting robots.

I think what I found the most offensive was how badly he trashed Disney cartoons.  Actually, it seemed as if he trashed the entire medium of animation, and that just seems extremely close-minded.  I mean, I can respect that there is a movie or a series of movies that he just doesn't like, but to totally dismiss an entire medium of art invalidates his opinion just a bit.

Actually, that's exactly right!

Damn you for getting there before me.  ^_~

While many would argue that that amazing story isn't told too well, I think the main reason people dislike the prequel trilogy is because of the many ways it forces bad retcons on the original trilogy.  Granted, the original trilogy had many retcons, but most (not all) worked very well for the story.  The fact that Lucas felt compelled to return to the original films again and alter things just to tie it in better with the prequel trilogy speaks volumes about how poorly it was planned.

However, I don't strongly dislike the prequels.  I enjoy watching them.  I don't think they're up to the caliber of the originals at all, and trying to tie it together with the original leaves a bad taste in my mouth (which is why I rarely ever think of the prequels when I'm watching the originals), but I do enjoy seeing them from time to time.  They have some pretty good moments in them.  You just have to wait a bit for them.  ^_~

Yep, HotRod, that was all about you.  The thought of you whipping us all in round 2... I can't breathe.  I'm haunted by the points they should never have given me.  Hoping that those points don't become a scar.  *sobs uncontrollably*  It's all HotRod's fault!  He's jealous!  He's holding me back!!!

(It's been a loooong day)

You know, on second thought I can wait a little bit until the next round.  It's a bit stressful with all you guys breathing down my neck.  I rushed home from work every night to see if I could be the first one to answer a question only to have Paul post the next round after I'd already gone to bed!  Heh, stressful.

Well, it's not like I have extremely high hopes for this movie anyway (to begin with it's about eight years too late to cash in on DB's popularity in the states), but really, while I'm not too terribly impressed with this Piccolo, I really don't know what they could have done.  It's still just a live-action movie, not at all suitable for the material.  There's really no way these characters are going to look like the characters in the series without looking goofy.

Phew.  You really had me worried there.  And honestly, I only took the six point question because I knew it was the only way I could still win.  I really had no idea what the answer was.  That was a complete and total guess, and I really had no confidence I was going to actually get it right!

Good show, everybody!  Can't wait for the next series.

Well, a ten year old Han almost did make it into ROTS, and removing that plot point was probably the best decision in the entire movie.  Because, yes, I agree that all these convenient meetings ruins everything, especially with the droids.  Granted, having the droids be in all the movies was something Lucas had toyed around with since the beginning, but I don't think he should have done it.  Or, if he had, he should have had them being observers, removed from the events and characters but just happen to be nearby some major events on occasion.  A cutaway to their confused opinions and then back to the main action.  As much as the droids annoyed me by the sheer improbability of their being there, and as annoying as it was that the less than creative mind wipe was used to preserve continuity, I don't know what else they could have done from that point to fix it.  However, it really pisses me off that they didn't erase both their memories.  It totally changes R2's motivation in Star Wars.  Rather than following Princess Leia's programming, he's now trying to get the old gang back together to save the day.  And it just makes him seem like an insensitive prick to be sitting on all this important information and just not tell anybody.  When Ben Kenobi said he didn't recall owning a droid... he meant it!  To interpret that look at R2 as some kind of secret understanding is ridiculous and makes even less sense.  What motivation would Kenobi have to keep his "previous" relationship with R2-D2 a secret?  I don't even know if I could come up with a rationalization for how that makes sense.

But, yeah, too many convenient connections.  Chewbacca and Yoda fighting in the war together.  Owen Lars hanging out with C-3PO (and did anyone notice how Anakin and Padme just took off, stealing the Lars's droid without even saying goodbye or anything?).  Little Boba Fett shooting lasers at Obi-Wan Kenobi.  Even Padme plotting with Mon Mothma was better left on the cutting room floor.  Most people seem to think these Rebellion scenes would have befitted the movie... and, of all the coincidences I mentioned, this one would have been the most plausible... except for the fact that they'd already put far too many of these strange occurrences throughout the prequels so that by the time you got to ROTS, seeing them together would just be one more hurdle that your suspension of disbelief just couldn't jump!

Well, at least the average layperson who had no idea who was behind that voice can now give him the recognition he deserves.

Although I'm sure that Geico commercial he was in helped a bit.  ^_~

Anyway, sad news.  He will be missed.

James Arnold Taylor does seem to do a good Obi-Wan Kenobi.  The trailer looked pretty good, but it was so... dark that I could barely see anything.  But it had me pretty impressed until that incessant "Roger, roger" sequence of droids at the end.

I swear my favorite moment of Revenge of the Sith is when Palpatine said that all droid unit must be shut down.  I literally shouted for joy in the theatre I hated those things so bad.  ^_^

How many holomonsters are visible on the Millennium Falcon's Holoboardgame?

12

CO said:

This is the one time that I am going to defend Lucas on his older quotes about the saga now.  In one of the documentaries in the recent DVD releases Lucas says, "It was always about these twins, and their father." 

Now in that way, I do believe him, cause I think he did have a general idea about that, but he never specifically says Luke/Leia are siblings the same way he lies about Darth Vader being Lukes dad or the saga was always about Anakin.

I think in ESB, the other was Lukes sister, just not Leia at the time, hence why Luke & Leia smooch at the beginning of the movie.  I think if Lucas decided to make more movies with Luke, Leia and Han rather then a trilogy, in the next movie they would explore Luke meeting his long lost sister and he would train her in that movie to become a jedi.  But I think Lucas wanted to end the series with ROTJ, they needed to tie up the 'other' plot point, and Leia was his only way of doing that.

Well, according to zombie's book, in the first draft of Empire, Luke talks to the ghost of his father on Dagobah, who tells him that he has a twin sister who is training on the other side of the galaxy.  However, in later drafts, the sister (and father meeting) plot points are dropped.  But Yoda does mention, "Now we will have to find another" (eventually becoming, "No, there is another").  The sequel trilogy was supposed to feature the other as the central character supposedly, but there was no hint as to who this other was supposed to be.  According to zombie, when ROTJ came around, and Lucas decided to drop the sequel trilogy, he still had to have the other issue be addressed.  Knowing he couldn't introduce a new character, he merged the other idea with the old Jedi sister idea, and the merging resulted in Leia becoming the other and Luke's sister.

Who was the only other person besides Luke to see Darth Vader without his helmet and mask (PT, of course, doesn't count)?

Admiral Piett.

And I think you'd better take my level cap off.  Astromech is about to pass me.  In fact, he'll have tied with me at the end of this round.