Fang Zei

C3PX said:

Maybe so, hell, I'd probably even prefer that over the original. But I'd still like to have it preserved where I can compare them side by side. If I can't have both, I'd rather have it the way it was originally experienced by the audience.

Back when the dvd came out, my roommate picked up the single-disc edition (I didn't know this until I noticed him watching it on his computer with headphones on one day). I remember him saying "the cgi isn't as jarring here as it is in Star Wars."

Warner is supposed to be putting THX-1138 on blu-ray next year according to the Home Theater Forum's recent chat with them (the transcript of which you can find right here).

Even though they could probably fit both versions on a single BD-50 (either version is less than 90 minutes long), I somehow doubt that would happen. Even though Lucas doesn't own any sort of rights to the movie, I could see him getting all up in arms about the version the studio took away from him and cut two minutes from getting released in any form whatsoever, even if the newer version is also included.

Universal could easily include both versions of Graffiti on an eventual blu-ray release. Again, who knows if they actually will.

I'm especially curious about what the deal is with that random, what the fuck inclusion of cgi in the Raiders hdtv broadcast. I would certainly hope they're not considering that a permanent revision, it really looked horrible in the clip I saw youtube. My biggest problem is that the older version looks objectively better to me.

Finally, there's Star Wars.

Y'know, it occured to me that you can't watch the original versions of the six films on any one format! On acceptable dvd quality, you can only watch AotC and RotS, as TPM and the OT are the altered versions. On laserdisc, you can only watch the OT and TPM, as AotC and RotS weren't released on that format. VHS is a funny story though. If Lucas hadn't made RotS dvd-only, you could actually sit down and watch the entire saga on pan-n'-scan vhs.

Lucas, for the blu-ray release of the saga, would do right by Star Wars fans to finally allow the option of watching all six movies in their original theatrical conforms on the best home video format available.

Again, who knows if that will actually happen ....

Yes, it is a tad ridiculous that we've now gotten this and yet still no remastered OOT. Lucas doesn't actually own the distribution rights to any of his movies, he just owns the rights to the movies themselves (and even that isn't true of THX and Graffiti). At digitalbits I've read a transcript of a chat with someone from Warner Home Video and they actually said THX might get a blu-ray release as early as this year. GL wouldn't have any say in that. Even if he owned the rights to the film itself, WB owns distribution.

It actually begs the question of why 20th Century Fox didn't/doesn't just take the best surviving OOT film elements from their own vaults and put out a decent set themselves. Does this all stem from GL's renegotiation of terms back in the mid-90's?

The funny thing is, about a year ago I was hanging out with a friend of mine who was reminiscing about growing up in The Philippines and watching stuff on betamax, including Howard the Duck. I wasn't sure if it'd been released on dvd here in the States yet, and I figured if it had I would've heard about it. We did a google search and saw it'd been released on region 2, but my friend must've forgotten about that part cuz I randomly got a text message a few weeks later from him saying "don't forget what I want for my birthday, dude: Howard the Duck!"

I doubt he would've heard about this region 1 release. The only movie news site he reads is comingsoon.net, not chud or aintitcool like me.

Looks like I know what I'm surprising him with.

I would be content if they at least put out the oldest and newest/final versions in equal home video quality.

That said, I think it would be really cool if they included all of the theatrically released versions. This would basically mean the 77/81, 97 and final versions for Star Wars; the 80, 97 and final versions for TESB; and the 83, 97 and final versions of ROTJ. They would have to do three-disc sets for each movie, since none of the three versions could really be branched with each other. They could get someone like RAH to restore the older versions and he could use the OUT and 97 IP's as a starting point.

For Star Wars '77, they could still presumably use that technicolor separation master we've heard so much about. That, along with the '77 IP, would provide a pretty good reference.

The '04 version is what I think will end up as the "lost version" most likely. If they do indeed put out the movies theatrically in 3D in the year 20xx, I think it'll probably have some additional (and probably minor) alterations from the '04 version. Hey, if people really end up wanting a preservation of the '04 version, they can come right to this very website for information!

As for the prequels, well, I can't imagine Lucas would alter AOTC and ROTS. Digital Yoda in TPM is a given, but that's about it. I would really hope that he includes the original version though, since it's one of the highest grossing theatrical releases of all time. I can't help but think GL made that longer dvd cut to distance himself in some way from the summer of '99 and all the negative reactions.

If they really wanted to go all out they could branch in the 35mm versions on the AOTC and ROTS discs, or even the AOTC IMAX edit, but I'd settle for the versions we have. Just give me the theatrical TPM and I'm happy.

Thanks for bringing attention to this, Mielr.

I filled it out and put the following in the "add your own comments" section. It's pretty much a copy-paste of my last post in the SE vs. theatrical section:

"The pattern we've (perhaps coincidentally) seen continued by the cgi The Clone Wars movie is one-new-star-wars-release-in-theaters-every-three-years. 2011 will be the next cycle, and the clone wars show is supposed to have run its course by then. Wouldn't it be a smart marketing move for Lucasfilm to put out the 3D conversion then? 2011 is the year before the 35th anniversary, kinda like how 1996 - the year before the 20th - was when they were originally planning on releasing the SE. They could use that to build up hype for the live-action show, which at this rate won't hit until 2012 at the earliest. They could put out the definitive blu-ray sets with Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and both versions (oldest and newest/final) of the Original Trilogy and The Phantom Menace - with all of the versions in 1080p - at some point prior to when the show debuts. Maybe they could throw in a preview for the show on the set or - better yet - wait until the show debuts and advertise the hell out of the blu-ray during commercial breaks."

Guys, seriously, the more of us who fill it out, the more LFL doesn't think it's just a bunch of random people who coicidentally all want the same thing.

R2-918 said:

There was speculation from the Digital Bits and other DVD news websites that there was going to be a Big 30th Anniversary 9 disc DVD box set released back in 07' but it was delayed due to poor sales of the 06' GOUT DVD sets.  Some of the speculation was that there was going to be more changes to the movies and there was going to be a lot of new Bonus material included in this 30th Anniversary set. I think we'll probably see this Mega DVD box set released before any of the films are released on Blu-ray but then again the Digital Bit's sources have informed them that some of the Star Wars movies (probably only Episodes 1,2 and 3) may get a Blu-ray release next year.

I'm betting LFL probably just said "hey, let's wait a few more years instead. We'll make more money in the long run if we wait until we put out the blu-ray."

The digital bits' sources are usually correct, and I somehow don't doubt we'd get the prequel bd's before the originals, I just don't know about it being as soon as next year. I keep wondering what's going on with the 3D theatrical re-release they keep talking about. One rumor said they're not quite at the point of no return in regards to spending money on the 3D conversion process and George isn't sure it's all worth while, so it might simply not end up happening. If that were the case, I'd consider a 2010 blu-ray release a possibility.

In any event, if the 3D conversion is a definite green light go, I would think we're not seeing the blu-ray until after that hits theaters. It would be a lot easier for LFL and Fox to go "Hey everyone, you've only been able to watch the (SE) OT in good-quality-for-dvd and, if you've really been lucky, hdtv broadcasts. Now we bring it to you like you can only truly experience in a movie theater!"

Okay, current prediction from me:

The pattern we've (perhaps coincidentally) seen continued by the cgi The Clone Wars movie is one-new-star-wars-release-in-theaters-every-three-years. 2011 will be the next cycle, and the clone wars show is supposed to have run its course by then. Wouldn't it be a smart marketing move for them to put out the 3D conversion then? 2011 is the year before the 35th anniversary, kinda like how 1996 - the year before the 20th - was when they were originally planning on releasing the SE. They could use that to build up hype for the live-action show, which at this rate won't hit until 2012 at the earliest. They could put out the definite blu-ray sets with AOTC, ROTS and both versions (oldest and newest/final) of the OT and TPM at some point prior to when the show debuts. Maybe they could throw in a preview for the show on the set or - better yet - wait until the show debuts and advertise the hell out of the blu-ray during commercial breaks.

Yeah, I wish there was some way we could see definitive numbers on how the GOUT's sales stack up against the 04 set's, though I really don't think there were that many people who didn't buy it because they knew it was non-anamorphic. Most people probably think all standard dvd's are 4:3 letterbox (how many times have we gone over to a friend's house and needed to set their dvd player to 16:9 because the picture was all stretched out?), so the people who didn't buy it either a) aren't star wars fans or b) already had the '04 set and don't care about the alterations. But there's obviously a large number of people who are neither because the GOUT still sold quite well. Even the knowledgeable on this very forum were saying they bought it hand over fist because it might be the best we ever get.

When the blu-ray comes out, there won't be some way of fooling everyone who doesn't know any better. There is only 16:9, so that's what the OOT will have to be if they include it. Of course, I'm sure they could pull something just as annoying and include a 16:9 480p mpeg-2 transfer in the corner of the same disc that has the nice 1080p SE, just so they wouldn't have to put the original version on its own disc.

Here's what I'm thinking: it only took six years for dvd to overtake vhs, which is why Lucas released the OT in '04 instead of waiting even longer like he'd originally planned. The live-action show is hitting circa 2012, and I'm betting Lucas will put out the blu-ray right before then. Live-action tv is the only medium Star Wars has never been told in, barring the holiday special. Call me naive, but I would think they'd want to make the blu-ray the definitive set at least so far as non-downloadable content goes (bd-live will allow them to put out more extras later). Once the show is on the air, I would think it'll be all about the show and - later on - the blu-ray and dvd season sets. Blu-ray will be big by 2012, but I'm thinking it's not going to be so big as dvd was in '03 (six years into its life). Maybe zombie's dire prediction of "star wars on blu-ray" being enough of a selling piont will come true, but people only had nine years with dvd before a new format came out. They're not going to be in a rush to buy Star Wars again unless it has what a lot of them want.

Right, it's just that I see it being infinitely more complicated to track down those scanned pieces of negative (if they even bothered to save the initial scan on a computer before they SE'inized it, and they probably didn't) and then cutting those back together with the unaltered pieces of the restored '97 negative. I think it would just be easier to take an interpositive and do whatever restoration necessary. Then they can make a 1080p transfer of that.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think LFL did with the '97 negative after it got scanned for Lowry's digital restoration in '04? I mean, I somehow doubt Lucas intends to have Lowry restore it all over again. He didn't want it to be done in anything higher than 1080p 'cause then it would look better than AOTC and ROTS. So is there any reason for them to hold on to the o-neg anymore?

Ridiculous, quite right, but apparently that's what happened. The original negative is the highest quality source for the movie, coming straight from the camera, so that's what Lucas wanted to use for his so called restoration. Instead of making a copy of the o-neg first and cutting all the alterations into it, he just cut them straight into the o-neg.

I've heard people say time and again on these boards that if they were in control of the situation they'd take the altered '97 negative and basically de-alter it. The rationale seems to be that the o-neg will always be the highest quality source, so we shouldn't even consider using another source like an IP or a print. Honestly, it makes no difference to me if an IP were to be used for our long-sought-after remastered OOT. I mean, the prints that you go to see in movie theaters are several generations removed from their o-negs, and a print is basically the highest quality you can actually watch a movie in, short of digital projection of course.

It reminded me of the Star Trek: The Motion Picture poster.

Yes, it would be great if they could somehow include all versions in a future blu-ray ala the Blade Runner set: '77, '81 (same as '77, just with "Episode IV A NEW HOPE at the beginning), '97, '04 and the inevitable (and hopefully final) version in 2012 or whenever we end up getting it.

But if they could at the very least throw in the original versions (remastered this time, argghhh!!!!) along with the final version, I'd be happy. That way we could have the oldest version and the newest, final version. They should at least make sure they do that for each movie: Star Wars (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1977 version), Empire (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1980 version) and Jedi (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1983 version). If we could be given the choice of watching either the final revision of the OT-SE in 1080p or the OOT in 1080p, I think all the fans would be happy.

Here's something that occured to me today:

Of all the people who have an opinion either way on the matter, aren't there more SE fans than OOT fans? What exactly does GL have to lose by throwing in a remastered OOT on the blu-ray? Won't he sell more copies? The SE will still be the accepted version, it'll have the Lowry restoration and look sparkly clean. All we're asking is that the OOT simply be REMASTERED. It's that simple. Just take Robert Harris up on his offer, Lucas!

I was actually wondering if the petition was started before or after the '04 set was announced.

To answer your question:

For the time being, no, there isn't a better video transfer of the unaltered versions. For the 2006 unaltered dvd release, Lucasfilm simply recycled the 1993 laserdisc master (which - to the best of anyone's knowledge on these forums - is the same transfer that was used for the 1995 "one last time" laserdisc). Their reasons were that "existing prints are in poor condition," which could mean anything.

One could only hope. Fingers crossed as well.

It's 192kbps because it's only 2.0 and not 5.1.

The 2004 version is 5.1, which I presume is 448kbps.

Lowry's 2004 digital restoration was to get rid of every last scratch or piece of dirt on the negative. This couldn't be done back in the photochemical days of 1997, when all they could hope for was stabilizing the color and cleaning off the film with a sponge.

Well, according to Lowry, they did just about the best job they could for the amount of time they had (about a month per film). I doubt LFL would bother to pay for anymore cleanup, the only thing they really need to fix is vfx errors they didn't get around to fixing in '97 or '04 (I'm talking matte boxes and the like). Hopefully they'll also realize "okay, the color correction is interfering with how things are supposed to look in certain shots (the lightsabers), we should probably fix that."

As for the OOT, well, the only explanation they offered back in '06 was "existing prints are in bad condition." They could retcon that to mean anything they want if/when they suddenly choose to dig up and restore the interpositives and do 1080p transfers of them.

The funny thing is that Kersh apparently has no problem with the altered version of Empire Strikes Back. That's arguably one of the biggest things going against the OOT ever getting properly remastered since Star Wars' director is Lucas and Jedi's is dead.

C3PX probably is right and a new petition wouldn't make a bit of difference in the grand scheme of "Star Wars on blu-ray" being all that's really necessary for people to go out and buy it.

However, I am hoping that Lucas - seeing the kind of treatment some of these catalog titles have been getting for their BD debuts - ends up doing the right thing. I think he could AT THE VERY LEAST manage to make each of the original movies a two-disc set with the (hopefully final) newest cut on the first disc and a remastered original cut on the second. I really don't think that's too much to ask and in fact at this point I think it would be silly not to include it.

Unless of course he thinks the money he'll be saving by not having to stamp out that second disc will outway the money he'll be making from all the OOT fans who will only be interested if the original version is included. Otherwise, omitting the OOT makes no sense.

No, that's not what I meant and no, I don't think for even a second that the petition is what got us the GOUT. Sorry for not being clearer.

First we got Close Encounters and Blade Runner, with the original versions included. Now we're getting the original versions of all the Star Trek films. Call me naive, but I'm getting more and more hopeful that GL won't get away with simply pressing out an SE-only Star Wars BD set.

Well, even though the Indy trilogy is rumored for a BD release this year, I'm now starting to wonder whether it'll be a few years before we see Star Wars. The Live-Action show will apparently not be on the air until 2012, which - being the 35th anniversary (not the roundest of numbers, but it works) - might make sense. Heh, that quicktime trailer for the Alien: Director's Cut saying "24 years ago" and the ROTS commercial "for 28 years, the Star Wars saga has blah blah blah" come to mind. Anyway, if they really are going to release all six movies in 3D cinema beforehand, I doubt they can get all of them done by next year. I don't think there are enough digital projectors in the cinemas anyway. Didn't McCallum say they were waiting until there were like 10,000? It might make sense to let the clone wars show run its course in the meantime, and then have a huge year for the 35th anniversary with the 3D re-release, the blu-ray and the live-action show.

What I seriously think we should do is agree on what EXACTLY we want, by which I mean lets all come to an agreement on what should be in the blu-ray set. I guess what this basically translates into is: someone should draft a new petition. If we can all agree on an exact petition, we can then all send our videos to the people making this documentary. Maybe we could even get in contact with them and ask if they could please, please, please emphasize in the doc that this matter of the OOT is a pretty large part of why we're so frustrated with the guy.

Y'know, the "dark times" didn't really begin for me until that night in May of '06 when I loaded digitalbits' main page and found out the unaltered dvd's wouldn't be enhanced for 16:9.

In all seriousness, don't you think we should ALL send in videos telling George why we're fed up and what it is we really want?!

We could all take the time on this forum to make sure that we're all telling him the exact same thing! When the guys putting this thing together get all of these videos saying the exact same thing, they'd be hard pressed to not do some sort of montage in order to get that message across to Lucas.