Fang Zei

"It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt .... over so small a thing ....

.... such a little thing ...."

I really, seriously think Lucas should just dig up those interpositives and make a high-def transfer of the OOT and the theatrical TPM so that both he and the fans can just move the hell on. It's such a large part of why anything Star Wars is thought of the way it is today.

The fact is that in 2006, in a world where we now had high-definition video discs (hddvd and blu-ray), George Lucas literally gave us 1993 quality transfers of the star wars trilogy and acted like he was doing us a favor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If George had simply waited until he was going to show the original versions proper treatment, I would've been fine sticking with the '04 set in the meatime. The fact that he went "oh, here you go, some nice little bonus content for you. Wait, what's that? You mean nostalgia isn't the only reason you wanted the OOT on dvd?!" is what got to me.

If he would just dig up those interpositives and master the original versions (the OOT and theatrical TPM specifically) in high definition, seriously, that's all it would take to make me a happy SW fan again.

In regards to that Spider-Man 2 display, TLSO:

I'd be wary of displays like that. Most of the ones I've seen haven't really been optimally set up. I actually know what all the settings and specs are on my hdtv, so I have the blu-ray connected over hdmi with 24p mode turned on and I keep the tv's picture settings on the "standard" preset (it's "vivid" out of the box) with cinemotion turned off. It's a fairly new set also, which helps. I think the stores aren't really giving people a good idea of how blu-ray can look.

Personally I've thought for a while now that a good scenario would've been to have some sort of combination of Spielberg, Johnston, Darabont and Fincher, with no two prequels being directed by the same person. Maybe three of those guys could be the directors and the fourth guy would basically be the PT's Kasdan. Maybe it could go:

Episode I: Johnston

Episode II: Spielberg

Episode III: Fincher

Darabont could write the screenplays. Lucas would write the story, but maybe Frank would have some input. I guess McCallum would still produce. The directors would have final say on who the cinematographers would be, so for Spielberg that would obviously be Kaminski (which, seeing how his CinemaScope debut on Indy IV turned out, would work PEFECTLY).

Vaderisnothayden said:Are the OT box sets limited time only like the 2006 GOUT dvds were supposed to be?

After enough time had passed from December 31st of '06 with the GOUT very clearly still on sale all over the place, I don't think people lent much credence to the "limited" caveat. That's probably why LFL didn't even bother saying it this time around.

TheBoost said:

Fang Zei said:

Meanwhile, LFL launches that massive multimedia clone wars project with the six books, the genndy series, the comics, the digest comics, etc, and people got even more pissed as it became clear that GL intentionally left everything people wanted to see out of AOTC (tell me that's not the most commonly voiced complaint about the PT) just so he could make more money by spreading it out over that huge multimedia campaign. Cash grab though it was, the various creative minds behind it arguably did a better job than GL did with the prequels because they embraced what had come before in the EU and the OT.

 

In regards to Lucas leaving what people wanted to see out of AOTC (intentionally none the less!!!), what did people want to see in that film? I'm not sure what aspects of the Clone Wars 'cash grab' would have been better in the films.

The ludicrous action of the cartoon? The existential search for identity of Jangotat? Another disposable villain like Ventress or Durge? Obi-Wan's chestplate? Or were we all dispointed that AOTC didn't include MedStar Battle Surgeons!?? Which of these great plot points exactly were intentionally left out because of their overwhelming greatness?

As for most commonly voiced complaint about AOTC, it seems to me that it's between 'the love story blew' or 'the mystery subplot blew.' 

I guess it's just the little things like the IG droids in the cartoon or dreadnaughts and the chemical spill on Honoghr in the comics. What really got me was how amazing the Anakin/Obi-Wan storyline in Labyrinth of Evil was compared to the Nelvaan story in volume 2 of the cartoon.

Even without the cartoon comparison, I remember hearing that Labyrinth of Evil was an idea that started as what was originally the first part of ROTS' screenplay. Like I said in the other post, I was reading that thinking "this is the best Star Wars novel ever."

This is straight from the mouths of the Lowry guys:

"We were working at 1920 by 1080 at full RGB." So that throws out the 4K theory. I remember asking at least twice in the same thread what resolution the Indy trilogy was restored at and no one answered my question. I'd thought I read somewhere that it was 4K, but if one of you guys knows then please clarify 'cause I'd like to know.

-lossless compression or none at all: probably true

-saving the cgi files: I've been curious about this for a while. When I first watched the '04 dvd's, it looked to me like the '97 cgi shots had simply been scanned from the negative just like everything else. I only say that because I thought I noticed a very, very slight flicker and/or framedrift in shots such as the asp knocking the floating droid to the ground right before Luke's speeder zooms into frame. The shot of the Falcon about to touch down on the Cloud City landing pad (right before it cuts to the miniature) is another example. Then of couse there's also the example of the color that got sucked out of a '97 shot during the battle of yavin (when wedge flies through the exploding tie fighter he shot). So I don't know if he saved the files.

-saving all the old VFX elements: they're right about that. Any making-of on the SE will mention this.

What I was trying to express in my first post but couldn't quite organize my thoughts around was this:

GL reserved that span of time in the Star Wars galaxy to tell the prequels, but that didn't stop authors like Zahn from referencing certain things long before George actually got around to making the PT. Then along comes TPM, and then three years later AOTC, and that's when people notice that it doesn't have much to do with anything that was previously mentioned.

Meanwhile, LFL launches that massive multimedia clone wars project with the six books, the genndy series, the comics, the digest comics, etc, and people got even more pissed as it became clear that GL intentionally left everything people wanted to see out of AOTC (tell me that's not the most commonly voiced complaint about the PT) just so he could make more money by spreading it out over that huge multimedia campaign. Cash grab though it was, the various creative minds behind it arguably did a better job than GL did with the prequels because they embraced what had come before in the EU and the OT.

See, after the Zahn trilogy hit in the early 90's it's almost like Star Wars fans got used to the universe being chronicled in that written medium. That and the fact it was limited by GL to only being post-OT didn't help lend him credibility, because by the time TPM was released it seemed even less connected to the OT than the actual EU did.

A world where the SE never happened kinda goes hand in hand with a world where the PT was done in a drastically different way, specifically much less reliance on effects. But even if the PT wasn't done any differently, I'd accept it as long as we never had an SE. At least in that scenario the PT is what it is and you can either take it or leave it.

The only positive side of this syndrom is that since Lucas must realize his impending mortality he'll get the final versions of the movies out in 3D sooner rather than later, hopefully by the end of the next year like I've been predicting.

I mean, at the King Kong premiere in December of '05 a reporter asked him if he missed Star Wars and he replied "no, I don't." At this point it's just a matter of practical business, but I get the feeling (and this is just my opinion) that the money-making possibilites of just the six movies is starting to decline, and the 3D and the blu-ray might as well be the last hoorah.

Really, even putting aside whether or not we'll finally get the good OOT, I just hope he stops tinkering with the revised version (of the revised version) of the movies and just says "this is the definitive, six-part saga that I've been talking about for years despite the fact that I still sell the dvd's in seperate trilogy boxes." Obviously I hope LFL finally comes to their senses for the blu-ray and throws in the original versions of the six movies in addition to the final drafts, but I think if anything we can rest assured that the tinkering is coming to an end.

Couldn't agree more, Janskeet. I can certainly vouch for sighting the '04 set just about whenever I'd go over to a friend's place.

ESHBG said:

The thing that works for me is to look at the PT as almost EU, so you can take it with a grain of salt and accept it or no.

These have been my exact thoughts on the prequels for a while now. They came to me a few months before ROTS came out and I got Labyrinth of Evil from the library. I was thinking "holy shit, this is by far the best Star Wars novel I've read." I'd been collecting the clone wars trade paperbacks over the previous year and a half, but after reading LoE I proceeded to get all six of the clone wars novels in paperback (had to wait until the summer for Jedi Trial) and read through just about all of them by the time May 19th rolled around.

An analogy came to me around that time.

I haven't read the Harry Potter books (seen the first four movies), but I imagine the way at least some of their fans must feel about the movies is the way at least some of the pre-'99 EU fans must feel about the prequels. I mean, one of my friends was pissed about the total lack of Jorus C'Boath and Spaarti cylinders and just about anything else mentioned about the Clone Wars before the PT came along. Even Maul's dual-bladed saber annoyed him because Exar Kun had already done that and to him it was basically GL going "Oh yea, I've got your Expanded Universe right here (makes hand gestures over crotch)."

zombie84 said:

Fang Zei said:

It's not like that would be a first: from what I've heard you need to do that on the '03 T2 dvd just to watch the theatrical version.

 

 That code was to see the film with the originally-shot but never released ending incorporated.

Ah, now that you mention it I'm remembering what I read on that message board once upon a time. It's just that I also remember reading that the main feature is the extended version only, whereas the 2000 dvd (which I still own) has both versions.

Back when the whole GOUT debacle happened, the one argument I heard more than any other in defense of the SE was "It's the same .... basic .... movie."

Yes, even if we finally get all six Star Wars movies available in their original forms in the best home video presentation available, we'll still be stuck with the altered versions of THX, Graffiti and now possibly that glaringly cgi alteration to Raiders (even without it, the dvd still has a handful of "corrections" although I sure as hell can't tell the difference aside from the snake pit reflection). I would hope that - especially since Spielberg will inevitably include both versions of his very own SE on the blu-ray of E.T. - that Lucas would do the same for THX when it hits the format.

As for Graffiti, well, seeing as how Lucas remembers the deletion of those two minutes for the original '73 release as being heartbreaking I have a hard time believing we'll ever see anything except the final version on blu-ray. But considering how easy it would be to just branch in those two minutes (and the original title shot) I would at least settle for some secret code you need to enter that only us hardcore film enthusiasts will end up hearing about. It's not like that would be a first: from what I've heard you need to do that on the '03 T2 dvd just to watch the theatrical version.

Look, Star Wars' dvd releases pretty much defy comparison. How many other movies can you think of where the noticeably altered version was released first and then later re-packaged with a laserdisc transfer of the original version?

blast, I had something written in reply to baron's last comment, but I got an error page from the forum when I tried posting it, not sure that's ever happened before.

Anyway, what I said was that it's funny how baron should bring this up:

"I think Lucas may have actually thought it had a chance at a Blade Runner-type rediscovery with teenagers or something."

because that's pretty much exactly what happened with the friend I was rooming with at the time. I walked in and he was watching the single disc version on his computer with headphones. He still thinks the cgi is less jarring/out-of-place than it is in Star Wars.

I just had a little email correspondence with Bill Hunt in regards to that rumor mill post from a few days ago and here's what he had to say:

"Well, it’s not for sure, but that’s what I’m hearing right now. Not all of them, probably just the first three films, and then the second three would come out later. Fingers crossed. I’ll post updates in The Rumor Mill as I get them.

 

Bill"

By "the first three" he meant the prequels.

Sorry to double post, but I just got a reply from an email I sent Bill Hunt.

"Well, it’s not for sure, but that’s what I’m hearing right now. Not all of them, probably just the first three films, and then the second three would come out later. Fingers crossed. I’ll post updates in The Rumor Mill as I get them.

 

Bill"

I just emailed him back to ask if by "the first three films" he meant the originals or the prequels.

EDIT: he meant the prequels.

Honestly, I wish Lucas had never bothered with the GOUT. It has caused us so much frustration that I just wish he had held off until he was going to show the films proper treatment.

now this is interesting ....

Okay... here's an interesting bit of information that leaked on the Net yesterday. The Cool Toy Review website posted shots from a Lucasfilm sales presentation that revealed the Holiday 2009 release of a second LEGO Indiana Jones video game... and the complete Indiana Jones Trilogy on Blu-ray Disc. The post was pulled down faster than you can say Lost Ark, but a few other sites still link to the URL it was at, including The Pirate Universe. We're trying to confirm this with our industry sources, so we'll let you know when we do. Lucasfilm has already let it be officially known that Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season One is coming to Blu later this year via Warner (our sources say it will likely hit stores in November), so this would mean that Lucasfilm is embracing the format in a big way this year. Our sources have previously informed us that at least some of the Star Wars films may be on deck for Blu-ray release starting in 2010, but that's still a ways off. As is always the case with Lucasfilm news, we'll believe it all when we see the actual discs on the shelf.

-from the rumor mill at thedigitalbits.com

This is the first time they've ever mentioned that little bit about their sources saying to expect Star Wars on blu-ray next year, though I don't get why LFL would only put "some" of them out and not all six at once. I would think they'd finally give us all six movies together in one collection for the people who've been waiting so long (I mean, OOT or no OOT, it's supposed to be one big six-part movie, right?!?!?!) Yeah, I'm not giving much credence to that "some" part.

The other thing I'm seriously wondering is whether LFL will actually do everything right this time. Don't get me wrong, I hope blu-ray takes off, but how confident is LFL that they'll be able to successfully double and triple dip all over again on this brand new format?

Congratulations guys, this thread got me to break out my 97 vhs letterbox set for the first time in what must be years. I was even surprised to see none other than (at the time future) LOTR visual effects supervisor Joe Letteri in the feature about the SE restoration.

I even synced up the '04 dvd so I could do an a-b comparison. Luke's return to the homestead is a scene I payed extra comparison attention to since I remember a book at the library called "The Cinema of George Lucas" where they mention the '04 digital restoration of the OT and THX-1138 and the frame of film they used for Star Wars was from the shot of Luke running towards the camera yelling "Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru." My comparison, even though it's also between different formats, was pretty much what I remember seeing in that book.

I actually had a couple paragraphs typed out way back when this thread was started, but I cut and didn't paste. To sum all of it up, blu-ray has wowed me and being able to watch the original version of Blade Runner in 1080/24p makes me seriously wonder if we'll see Star Wars given the same treatment sometime in the next few years.

Otherwise, it's been a while since I've bought anything Star Wars, which I believe was the last issue of Dark Times back in June. My Cowclops v2 transfers, which I used to play ALL THE TIME, haven't been watched in months. Somehow, knowing that it isn't as accurate (in terms of color, etc) as the GOUT makes me actually consider laying down good money for that most recent boxset, but then I remember a) I don't have money to blow right now and b) the blu-ray, which will hit with some version of the movie on it sometime in the next few years, could very well include the original version in 1080p.

C3PX said:

 

Not sure, but I think George has talked about being inspired in part by LOTR before.

 

I even heard that's where the idea for Willow came from. Lucas couldn't get the films rights to LOTR, so he made Willow instead.

Got to love how it still says "limited time only."

I wouldn't bet on seeing a blu-ray release until after (or at least at the same time as) the 3D release, and my guess for that would still be next year. If anything were hitting this May, we'd know about it by now. Only false alarms like the GOUT are out of the blue.

skyjedi2005 said:

I mean unless he is waiting to put them on Blu Ray after the 3D releases in theaters if that even ever happens. 

This has been my assumption. He's been working on the 3D version for some time now, probably too long for it to just not end up happening, and I think that also means we'll see it sooner rather than later. I still think it would make perfect sense for them to get a trailer out with the 3D version of Avatar this December, with something like "coming next year, 3D Star Wars!" Then the audience is (hopefully) blown away by Avatar in 3D and can't wait to see what Star Wars will be like.

I would really, really hope that we see the end all be all blu-ray set after that. But I do get the sinking feeling that Lucas will drag things out just like he did with dvd, opting to put only the final versions out first and then include the original versions in a later release. At the same time, I think Lucas really has so many odds stacked against him in terms of what everyone will expect with the blu-ray debut that he'll have little choice but to include the original versions, especially if the sentiments about the franchise's declining popularity are fact and not opinion.

On the subject of people getting big-ass lcd's and plasmas with no HD content to play on them, just remember that back in the day unless you had a laserdisc player you weren't taking full advantage of your analog tv's capability, aside from what you got over antenna/cable/satellite of course. DVD finally changed that.

On the subject of blu-ray not being worth the upgrade over standard dvd, this is what comes to mind:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15081975&postcount=3

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15081979&postcount=4

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15081981&postcount=5

The problem? DVD still looks too damn good. I've seen what blu-ray looks like on a huge projector, but watching dvd on a nine-year old player hooked up to a 40 inch bravia is good enough for the time being. I just watched raiders (from the '03 set) last night and it looked fine as long as I wasn't sitting too close. The '04 star wars set looks so clear that it hurts (just reminding everyone why we're here:). Heck, back in '04 my friend's family got a 60 inch lcd and a bose system. DVD's look AMAZING on it! He's got like 600 discs and counting and is therefore in no rush to upgrade.

What I'm noticing about blu-ray is that with these new releases the price is only slightly (if at all) higher than the two-disc dvd, with the single disc dvd being a few dollars cheaper. There's probably a huge demographic of people like me who want their dvd's looking better than hardware they've been using since '99 can provide, and when the time comes to upgrade it'll be worth it to just get a BD player for a few extra bucks. Then all they'll have to do is start buying on the new format for the same price they'd be paying for the two-disc dvd. This is what will allow BD to take off imo.