Fang Zei

This is an incredibly awesome find, dumb_kid!

They aren't the 35mm versions, but they are the versions that were shown digitally in auditoriums with DLP projectors. Granted, most people saw the 35mm versions when they went to see the movie in theaters. Only a hundred or so locations were showing AOTC in digital back in '02. The only place in the Commonwealth of Virginia showing it was actually the closest theater to where I live, but I didn't have a hankering to see Clones again until like a month after opening day - when I'd seen it in 35mm at the AMC Union Station in DC - and by that point the DLP screen had switched out AOTC for Scooby-Doo. So I never got to see it in digital. I'm 99% sure that the dvd version is 100% identical to the digital version though. The only thing I'm not sure about is that additional moment in the Lars homestead garage after Anakin's confession when Padme consoles him. I'm not sure if that wasn't added until the dvd. If someone can verify whether or not that was in the digital version, please say.

I saw ROTS on both film and digital. The wipe was definitely there in the film version, and obviously it's not there in the dvd. I'm not sure if it was there or not in the digital version but I think it was gone.

Apparently that wasn't the only difference. I remember reading people's claims that Vader's "NO!" scream and the subsequent wipe to the next scene was different, and that there was a difference in the background during Anakin and Obi-Wan's last verbal exchange on the lava flow. Not sure if any of those are true.

In any event, I'm pretty sure the Episode II and III dvd's are identical to the DLP versions.

True enough - and really I was being a bit hyperbolic - although I do think the absolute perfect treatment (at least so far as each OT film is concerned) is to have the final version on disc 1, the '97 version on disc 2 and the original version on disc 3 with branched '77/'81 opening crawls for ANH.

But on the fan/peer pressure note:

Ever since those fateful days in May of 2006 when Bill Hunt posted that incredibly long rant about how stupid it is that Lucas was actually claiming we'd never see the OOT in any better quality than the GOUT and Robert A. Harris basically offered to restore the damn things for free, I just haven't been able to shake the feeling that Lucas will get the message by the time he's prepping the blu-ray.

After all this grief we really shouldn't have to be putting together another petition of any kind, but we do. I think the closest we could possibly get to a petition that couldn't possibly be misconstrued is this:

"Dear GL, do whatever you want with your most recent (and hopefully final) revision of the original Star Wars trilogy (Star Wars: A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi). We would like you to please take Robert Harris up on his offer to restore the original versions to their former glory. Please tell him, once he is finished with the restoration, to convert them to SMPTE rec. 709 24fps 1080p. We would also like the original 35mm sound mixes preserved.

Since we assume you will be placing the revised version on the first disc of each blu-ray case, we would like the remastered original version on the second disc.

We can't imagine you would have anything more to revise in Episodes II and III, and they are (as of now) still the versions that appeared in digital projection during their original theatrical runs. Episode I has already been slightly re-edited with a couple scene extensions and there are rumors of still further revisions, specifically the replacement of the yoda puppet with the Episode II/III digital counterpart. If you could please include the original 1999 theatrical cut of the film via seamless branching, it would be very much appreciated by all of your completist fans.

Thank you for taking the time to read our petition.

signed,

Your Fans"

There, I'm spent.

The Blade Runner release alone should be shaming Lucas into preparing a monster-sized blu-ray set for each of the movies, but it probably isn't.

We're definitely not seeing another release for a while.

Those recent PT and OT boxes will likely be the last release until the blu-ray.

LFL has several seasons of The Clone Wars blu-rays to sell until then, not to mention the original Indy films which current rumors place at next year.

I really can't think of a better time to release the blu-rays of the six SW films than right before the live-action show goes on the air and I just can't shake the feeling that LFL will - AT THE VERY LEAST - throw in the fully remastered original version on the second disc of each OT film.

It's just been built up way too much for them to not do it.

Enough of this "you people will never be happy" talk that the gushers are so fond of.

If Lucas doesn't at least give us - the OOT fans - the opportunity to hand over our hard-earned cash for what we've been clamoring for this whole time then forget about the middle finger he gave us with the GOUT because this my friends would be the real insult.

This is slightly off topic, but ....

Wasn't there an HD broadcast of the theatrical cut of TPM way back when? 'Cuz if there was, that would mean there's an HD master still sitting on the shelves in the vault at LFL and they wouldn't have an excuse to not include it in the eventual blu-ray.

Do you guys think the '97 version should be included in the eventual blu-ray set? It would be nice to have a complete historical record of the theatrical releases of the movies. They'd have to make it at least three discs per film (one for the final version, one for the '97 and one for the unaltered), but since the transfers on each disc wouldn't take up all 50 gigs they could spread alot of extras over the extra space.

It's all especially ironic when you consider that Lucas is on some film preservation board with Scorcese et al.

In regards to whether LFL is sitting on a nice OOT transfer, well, I suppose that's possible but the actual facts we've gleaned make more sense. Jim Ward noticed all the demand for the OOT on dvd but Lucas only said "fine, just so long as I don't pay a dime to remaster it." Hence they ported the laserdisc master to dvd.

We'll see the OOT restored someday, folks. Hell, if Robert A Harris owns prints of it and even offered to restore it for free, then that rainy day scenario might actually be a reality. Oh, and here's a thought. What if (bear with me here) - what if LFL does decide to hire someone like Harris to restore the OOT for the blu-ray set? They could use that person's attention to detail at restoring - while not altering a thing - as a huge selling point to people like us!

I'll say this, it's not so much a matter of forgiving GL for "not doing it before," it's that he deliberately insulted so many fans by pretending to do it. When I step back and look at the big picture (wish I could, but we're stuck with the GOUT - zing!), this wouldn't have happened if this were any other big successful studio picture, but it's not. It's one of the mere handful of films owned by Lucas, several of which happened to become some of the biggest box office hits of all time (Star Wars and Indiana Jones). At the end of the day, to hold onto his independence, maybe going back to the well an aggravating number of times really is necessary.

But that's just me giving Lucas the benefit of the doubt.

In any event, I didn't have a problem (nothing to forgive) until he fake gave us what we wanted by dumping laserdisc transfers to dvd, something fans had been doing for years.

Yeah, except it's not like they're ever gonna redo all that cg in a higher resolution. I doubt they were even considering "hey, should we save the camera negatives for when we can do the effects at an even higher rez than 2K someday?" The processed version of the shots were considered the final version. Lowry will simply remaster TPM someday just as they did the OT. They didn't have the '97 effects shots saved on a computer in '04, Lowry had to restore them just like every other shot on the OT's negatives. If you look closely there's even a little framedrift still there. It will likely be the same situation for TPM. They'll restore it in 1080p to remove dirt, dust and scratches, but there might still be some framedrift and other anomolies. Just as with the OT, they'll never be able to erase some telltale signs that it was shot on film. Even though AOTC and ROTS are forever stuck at 1080p, Lucas probably cares more about the fact that he was able to completely cut film out of the equation.

It's indicative of Lucas' fascination with digital technology.

After he shot AOTC in HD and knew he was going to be doing the same with Ep3, he probably thought "well, these two movies are always going to be stuck at that resolution, so I certainly don't want to remaster the SE at any higher a rez. At least I can remove all the dust, dirt and scratches."

Heh, the last two posts kinda highlight something interesting to me:

How many times have we heard people say things like "Star Wars was great before it started sucking." It would be pretty easy to forgive the SE if Lucas remastered the OOT because there honestly wouldn't be anything left to complain about on that front. We would actually have both versions in the same presentation quality (1080p).

But there's always going to be that dichotomy between the OT and the PT. For one thing, Star Wars '77 was the last film George Lucas directed for two decades and he got different directors for Empire and Jedi. Some have argued that the man who stepped back into the director's chair for Episode I was a much different person from who we knew and loved. Visual Effects in the OT served the story, and even in the SE not every single shot had some sort of visual effect in it - far from it, in fact. The one big thing to take the edge off of "what might've been" for me is remembering that at least the OT was made first. The prequels - to me, anyway - will always be the prequels.

There are at least two things I want to see done with the blu-ray:

1) Lucas should make up his mind about how he wants his movies to be. In other words, take a page from Blade Runner and make this version the final version.

2) Remaster the OOT in 1080p. They did it for the SE, they can do it for the OOT.

and yes, of course he would be forgiven. I never even had a problem until he gave us the finger with the GOUT.

Okay, I got a question:

What exactly is the "resolution" of the final masters for AOTC and ROTS? I'm not talking about the HD "camera negatives" but the actual resolution of the final masters. I'm wondering because the Lowry guys were very specific back in 2004 about how they were working on the OT-SE at 1080p, which means the SE is now "stuck" at that resolution. TPM was shot on film just like the OT, but just about every shot went through the computer at what couldn't be more than 2K (The final master was on film anyway since DI was a brand new thing at the time; Lowry will likely restore it at 1080p for the "ultimate edition" just like they did for the '04 OT set). AOTC was shot on a bleeding edge camera with a vertical resolution of 1080 (I'm not sure if the horizontal was a full 1920 though). ROTS had a better camera, with full 1920 by 1080. A funny thing about the "one complete saga" idea is that we go from a scope lens in TPM, to spherical in AOTC and ROTS, only to go back to scope for the OT. I wish Lucas had shot AOTC and ROTS with scope lenses, if only to keep a visual continuity with the anamorphic lens distortion of TPM and the OT.

In case you're wondering, yes, some movie actually did just that (digital cinematography with a cinemascope lens). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CineAlta read the second paragraph of the "History and use in motion pictures" section.

I guess I'm specifically wondering what the highest resolutions that the PT was worked on were. We know that AOTC and ROTS were projected digitally at 2K, but does that mean the fx were actually done at that rez or was that simply a slight upscaling for the digital projection? My guess would be the latter. I saw ROTS in digital and it wasn't anything all that amazing in terms of resolution, even back in '05. So I'm guessing whenever Lucas finally finishes the 3D conversion of the films, TPM and the OT will simply be upscaled to 2K in projection just like AOTC and ROTS.

skyjedi2005 said:

Actually they are my opinions and those Fincher movies are all killing movies and not even close to star wars material.  You think you would actually look for people who work in that genre style.

But that's the thing.

Kershner and Marquand weren't exactly making space operas prior to Star Wars.

That's why the prequels should've been handled like Empire was: not written or directed by Lucas.

Here's a compromise I would've been willing to accept in an alternate universe:

The SE still happened in '97 (Kershner didn't care about the changes made to Empire and Marquand was dead, there's only so much I can complain about). GL got three directors - maybe even signed all three of them in advance - to direct the three prequels. I'm thinking people like Spielberg, Fincher and Johnston. Darabont could basically be the PT's Kasdan. The SE hits dvd in 2004 just like it did, and then maybe later on there's a PT+SE boxset of the complete I-VI saga. When the blu-ray debut finally happened (which still wouldn't be until after 2009, this is Star Wars we're talking about here!), Star Wars '77, Empire and Jedi would each get the Blade Runner treatment.

Well, in any event, the o-neg is lost to us as a means of restoring and remastering the OOT. I say just as well. Robert Harris has said that the o-negs aren't even neccessary to do a full-on restoration anyway. Besides, when I look at what happened with the Blade Runner set, it was a similar situation: they used the o-neg for the SE-equivalent "Final Cut" and used (I assume) interpositives for the U.S./international/director's cuts. If they did that for each of the OT films, I'd be more than happy

Sky, I think what he said was that the dvd version will be the only version there is out there. What he probably means is that content-wise that'll be the only version available, but obviously it'll be available on blu-ray further down the line since Lowry restored it at 1080p. They did the same thing for the Indy films. I even remember reading that Lowry did those at 4K! Someone please correct me if I heard wrong.

ChainsawAsh said:

My prediction is that this will be the only Blu-Ray release of the theatrical versions of The Motion Picture, Wrath of Khan and The Undiscovered Country and any future releases that improve on the quality issues raised with the transfers of I and VI will be the extended/director's cut versions instead of the theatricals.

and it's a lowdown dirty shame if true.

It's the whole reason I decided to bring it up in this thread. The Trek films are just as near and dear to my heart as the OT. Undiscovered Country was one of the first movies I saw in a theater, which was one big reason I was so excited for the blu-ray as it's the first release of that version of the movie on home video ever.

Remember how we all felt after we got confirmation the OUT dvd was gonna be just the laserdisc transfer? Yeah, that's about how I'm feeling right now.

But C3PX is right, it looks like - just as with dvd - we'll have to wait for the double dips of the studios' big catalogue titles on blu-ray.

(Since this is the most recent thread having to do with the GOUT) ....

Well, Paramount just released the original versions of the first six Star Trek films in a boxset on blu-ray and - with the exception of Wrath of Khan (which recieved an all out restoration and therefore had zero excuse not to look great) - it seems they seriously did a half-assed job. Undiscovered Country is the biggest offender, taken from a 1080i master.

Y'know, I've decided that with these big franchises the studios are going to keep going back to the well until it's bone dry because the vast majority of people picking up their releases are fans of the franchise first and movie fans second.

captainsolo said:

I don't believe for one second that Lucas would have been stupid enough to splice the 97 footage directly into the 77 original negative.

I know it sounds stupid, but that's actually what happened. With any movie that was shot on film, the original camera negative is the highest quality source that there is. That's why Lucas cut the alterations directly into the negative instead of making a copy first and cutting the changes into the copy.

It feels like it's been forever since we've heard anything about what's happening with the films. Lucas was quoted sometime last year as saying that the process for converting the movies into 3D is kinda expensive, something on the order of 10 million dollars per movie I think. Apparently he was considering cutting his losses and not going through with it. But we've gotten multiple reports from people who've seen demonstrations of converted scenes from A New Hope, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the release ends up happening after all.

Right now there are rumors from thedigitalbits.com that we could see some of the movies on blu-ray as early as next year. I somehow doubt that's going to happen. If what happened with dvd is any indication, Lucas will wait at least a couple more years until blu-ray is selling better than dvd. By that point the 3D conversion will probably be finished, so 2012 could see the 3D theatrical release and then the blu-ray (hopefully with remastered OOT) later on in the year.

There's two problems I have with what George is saying,

1) Change the movie all you want, but at least provide the older "drafts" in acceptable quality. Is there a reason they need to stay buried?

and

2) I'll grant him the "director's perrogative" argument when it comes to ANH, which he actually directed. But guess what? He didn't direct Empire and Jedi. He could at least be more accurate by saying "I wrote the story for the saga and executive produced episodes V and VI. The movies all now belong to me legally."

Yes, I know Kershner didn't have a problem with the changes made to Empire.

Yes, I realize there are unsubstantiated accounts of how Lucas directed some of Jedi.

....

By the way, I completely agree with Axia that Lucas will remaster the OOT eventually.

George doesn't own the rights to THX-1138, so I'm hoping beyond hope that Warner Brothers includes the original cut when they put it out on blu-ray next year. But somehow I get the feeling that's not gonna happen. Would love to be surprised though.

It's the same situation with American Graffiti. Universal owns the rights to that one, and they could easily branch both versions onto the same disc.

Of course, I'm saying all this under the assumption that George didn't cut some kind of a deal to get more control over those movies.

All I'm trying to say is that when the time comes for Lucas to finally remaster the OOT (and hopefully it'll eventually happen), I don't think he'll give us any other option than to buy it packaged as a second disc to the 20xx version on the first disc. I guess I'm just revising the question for myself, carry on.

I think I should clarify my previous post (sorry, I just had to get my umpteenth blu-ray idea out of my system):

I'm not big on the idea of the OOT being sold on its own as one release and the PT+SE being sold as another. I would rather see the initial blu-ray release have each of the six movies available individually with the specifications I listed above and the option to get all six together in a twelve-disc set. Later on, they can release a simplified set with only the final 2012 version of the saga, but I would want the movies to get the archival treatment first for those who really want them. I guess what I'm also trying to say is that Lucas wouldn't in a million years put out a remastered OOT-only set. This truly is a hypothetical situation. It would either be packaged with the revised version or not included at all.

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem, no.

Here's how I would prefer the hypothetical blu-ray release to go down though:

TPM:

-both the original 1999 cut and the final 20xx version branched onto the same disc. I don't really care if the '01 version isn't included, it should've been the finished version anyway.

AOTC:

-the same cut that's on the dvd and, if Lucas so desires, a finalized 20xx version branched onto the same disc (although I can't imagine what he'd want to do with it that he couldn't with 2002 technology).

ROTS:

-same situation as AOTC.

ANH:

-disc 1: the finalized 20xx version.

-disc 2: the '97 version, mastered from the '97 IP.

-disc 3: the '77 and '81 versions, mastered from the 77/81 IP's, seamlessly branched onto the same disc with all of the 35mm sound mixes.

ESB:

-discs 1 and 2: same as ANH

-disc 3: the 1980 version, mastered from the 1980 IP, with all 35mm sound mixes

ROTJ:

-discs 1 and 2: same as ANH and ESB

-disc 3: 1983 version, mastered from the 1983 IP, with all 35mm sound mixes

I wouldn't care about losing the '04 version of the OT since, as with TPM, the dvd should've been the finalized finished version anyway.

Lucas/SE fans are actually being huge hypocrites by ignorantly criticizing us OOT fans who complained about it being a laserdisc dump on dvd, saying things like "you'll never be happy with what Lucas gives you" and all the while demanding new revisions to the SE!

We could at least agree on what we'd want in a remastered OOT dvd. Meanwhile, they make threads like that one you linked to where everyone throws in their ridiculous ideas of what should be in the next/hopefullyfinal SE.

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT HE DOES WITH IT?!

Oh, and for the record, I post very occasionally over there as lawnmowerman603 and if you look through that thread you'll actually see that I'm clamoring for a remastered OOT on the next release.