Fang Zei

moviefreakedmind said:

Fang Zei said:

nickyd47 said:

SilverWook said:

That a documentary made in 2004 wasn’t shot in HD, (if only to future proof it) is weird.

So if anything, we’ll get an upscaled version of it

I feel like we don’t really know.

Did the guy who blabbed about it provide any kind of details?

Just that there were delays with Lucasfilm giving him the prints of the unaltered footage and that he was worried that if they wanted it soon they’d have to upscale things. This was about two years ago though.

Implying that they were actually doing a fresh scan of the unaltered material for the first time in decades? Interesting…

nickyd47 said:

SilverWook said:

That a documentary made in 2004 wasn’t shot in HD, (if only to future proof it) is weird.

So if anything, we’ll get an upscaled version of it

I feel like we don’t really know.

Did the guy who blabbed about it provide any kind of details?

Cthulhunicron said:

What exactly does it mean for the negative to be disassembled?

Sorry, I wrote and posted my response without fully understanding the context of your question. I’ve edited my post above accordingly with additional information.

Cthulhunicron said:

What exactly does it mean for the negative to be disassembled?

The first thing they did for the Special Edition was clean up the original negative shot by shot and frame by frame. This process was started in 1994. The technology to do this digitally didn’t exist yet, as it would by 2004, so they were still doing this photochemically. Because the o-neg was made up of four different kinds of film stocks (one for the shots that would’ve come straight from the camera, another for the vfx shots, etc), it had to be disassembled in order to clean and chemically treat each shot with the tender love and care it needed. I’m not sure if this necessitated separating each and every shot (for example, the scene where Luke has dinner with Owen and Beru was presumably all shot on the same film stock, so maybe they were able to clean/bath that scene without disassembling it).

While they were doing this, they also redid the optical wipes. This would have involved separating the end of each scene from the beginning of the next.

The negative has been conformed to the SE since 1997. George decided to cut the changes directly into the negative because, as far as he was concerned, the SE was the official version of the movie now.

We recently got confirmation from the relevant person at Fox that the pieces of the negative replaced for the SE were indeed put into storage and not discarded. It’s worth noting, though, that many of the vfx shots had deteriorated by '97 because of the chemical properties of the specific film stock they were finished on. As a result, even the shots that weren’t completely redone with cgi still had to be replaced. Because the only alternative was going to a grainier second-generation source like an IP or sep, George instead had ILM go back to what I presume were the VistaVision originals (which I guess hadn’t faded as badly?) and recomposite those shots digitally.

I think I remember reading on zombie’s website that the negative need not be disassembled to reconstruct the unaltered version. Because a modern restoration would be done digitally anyway, they would simply need to take a scan of the o-neg as it is now, scan in the pieces that got replaced, and rebuild everything in the digital realm.

I’ve accepted that the theatrical prequels will probably never be officially released on modern formats and will likely become a historical curiosity. That’s what places like this are for.

But it would be nice if the Star Wars movies I grew up with (for better or for worse) were preserved in their original form for future generations. The OUT/OOT is what really matters, though. Obviously there isn’t nearly as much demand for the PUT/OPT.

Quick side question:

I’m just throwing this out there for anyone who might have the answer, but do we know exactly why Fox loses the rights to the other five movies in 2020 as opposed to some other time?

Just to clarify, I’m not asking for an explanation of why they’re losing the rights. That much has been made clear. I’m just wondering why it’s happening in 2020 and not some other time. I’m also curious how we were able to figure this out in the first place. There was an article written on some website shortly after the Disney deal that gave the 2020 date, but I don’t think it was ever explained how the writer knew it was 2020.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

And CPY

That also.

crissrudd4554 said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I mean, unless they had leftovers just sitting around, why would they not use the new master?

And I imagine with the number of times the 04 disks were reissued, there weren’t many left by 2013.

I would imagine they would have just kept pressing the same '04 DVDs since it would likely cost less than designing and pressing brand new discs for something thats only minorly different from the previous DVD releases. I guess not.

Yeah, but for the prequels you’d have slightly different color timing on TPM (not to mention filmic anomolies like wobble, dirt and dust, and also slightly tighter framing) and significantly different color timing on AotC.

crissrudd4554 said:

rpvee said:

TV’s Frink said:

Hey look, you can get the 6-Disc DVD set that includes the GOUT from Amazon for only $310…and free Prime shipping!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EN71DG/ref=dra_a_ms_mr_hn_xx_P1400_1000?tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=3bc20f423c91737175e22556e17a66d5_S

I didn’t know that set had the GOUT. I thought the only time those DVDs were released in one package was the rare Best Buy tin.

I have the tin case set. Anyways as Fang confirmed yes that set does have the GOUT sets just in slimmer cases and would be the final time, along with the PT, the SW films were in a DVD only set.

Quick question. The DVDs that accompanied the 2013 BD reissues. Are those new DVDs based off the 2011 BDs or just the 2004 DVDs repackaged??

I remember reading confirmation somewhere that they are indeed the 2011 versions.

chyron8472 said:

jedimasterobiwan said:

I hope it doesn’t make all the star wars fan edits not be available anymore. 😦

George Lucas himself had long since known about fan edits. When asked about it in an interview, he said, while bitter about people doing it, he just cared that he had his version with his name on it (the article in question was actually about SW:Revisited).

Disney has had more than enough opportunity now to drop the hammer down on fan projects, but they haven’t. I was just saying, and I stress hypothetically, that making it too easy can bring it more mainstream, which has the hypothetical capacity to annoy them into action.

I also doubt a small handful of third party sellers on eBay are on Disney’s radar.

Disney hasn’t dropped the hammer because they realize they have no one but themselves to blame for Harmy’s efforts over the last four years even being necessary.

SilverWook said:

It doesn’t. Amazon is using the wrong photo.

There were multiple store exclusives. Wal Mart had them packed with reprints of the Marvel adaptations.

Amazon is using the correct photo in the link Frink posted. It’s the 2008 reissue barely anyone remembers. For the OT it was the two-disc GOUT sets (even though they had said December 31, 2006 was the last day the GOUT would be retailing). They also reissued the two-disc prequel releases in a trilogy pack as well. They both used those “ultra-slim-plastic-cases-in-a-thin-cardboard-box” packaging, the kind you would see season sets of tv series in sometimes.

I think this was the final repackaging of the OT and PT dvds until the blu-ray three years later.

Whether they do it now and share the profit with Fox or wait three years and keep it (mostly) for themselves, I think Disney will inevitably restore the original versions.

There’s no good reason for them not to do so, especially when Harmy’s version is a widely known thing.

George’s statements over the last seven years seem to indicate he really doesn’t care anymore, and the fans reconstructed the movies without his help anyway. Even he needs to face the music eventually. John Landis’ statements seem to indicate Disney has no qualms about releasing the unaltered versions either. As he said, it’s “money on the table.”

Warner Brothers spent more than a million dollars restoring North by Northwest, a movie I’m sure a restored OOT would outsell. Disney need not worry about losing money.

nickyd47 said:

Wait what happened to the film print of The Phantom Menace?

Nothing happened.

Lovelikewinter simply said it lost its film “touches,” meaning the current hd master is so dnr’d in places that it doesn’t look like film anymore.

I still think it looks better than AotC and RotS simply by virtue of having been shot on 35mm film in true cinemascope, just as the OT was. The DNR only affects certain scenes/shots in the movie. Again, I’m very curious if the dnr traces back to the newly constructed DI or if it was applied specifically for the blu-ray.

IIRC, some reviews and screenshots pointed out how soft and processed the AotC blu-ray looks in certain scenes. Let’s also not forget the teal push they decided to give it for some reason. RotS seems to be the only one to make it through unscathed and looking as it should.

When they inevitably go back to the 2k masters yet again for the UHD release, we’ll know whether the issues with TPM and AotC were specific to their blu-ray transfers or actually baked in at the source.

Considering Disney is by all reports waiting for Dolby Vision UHD disc players to hit the market before finally taking the plunge into 4k, I think it’s a relatively safe assumption they won’t stoop quite so low.

JawsTDS said:

4k restoration of OT aside, does anyone know the details of the “restoration” of TPM that was used for the Blu-ray? Curious if that was 4k - and if they have the film sans DNR.

With TPM it’s difficult to say. They rebuilt the movie directly from ILM’s digital filmout tapes, which were still readable after more than a decade. From there I’m assuming they mastered the movie in 2k (the digital filmout tapes would’ve been that res), finally giving it the Digital Intermediate treatment that AotC and RotS received for their original releases.

From there they would’ve made a nice 2k dcp and also done a stereo conversion for 3D. It was shown both ways in its theatrical re-release in February of 2012. Anyone who saw it at that time in 2d and has a clear memory of it would be able to tell whether the DNR’d shots looked that way in the DI source or if it was applied for the blu-ray.

Hardcore Legend said:

TV’s Frink said:

Hardcore Legend said:

For Disney, the idea of ‘everything matters’ outweighs restoring the OT to it’s original release cut. Disney wants everything to ‘fit’ both stylistically and in effects. I would wager they would be more interested in updating the SE SFX to fit in with Rogue One than from removing the SE changes. In fact, I bet they have a higher priority on making changes to the PT than working on a OUT. The SE is the canon they operate around now.

What’s your basis for this line of thinking?

Because Disney has updated their own properties in the past and made that the official version.

The heavy focus right now on the story period leading up to ANH, with everything in the universe controlled by the ‘story group’ makes me believe that it is more about blending everything together rather than restoring the film to its original cut.

I could be wrong. I hope I’m wrong in the sense that they release an archival version of the OT to show the film as it was in 1977. But I just feel like blending their universe (which on TV and film is becoming more interconnected every year) is more of a priority.

Like I said in the other subforum, I’m convinced Disney is simply waiting until 2020 when the rights to Empire, Jedi, and the prequels revert entirely to them.

They don’t need to make further changes to the OT just to make all the new stuff fit together with it.

Honestly, the 2020 thing is reason enough for me to think Disney is just sitting on it.

Even if they waited until then to do a 4k UHD release (which I suspect they’ll do anyway since it will be a while before UHD even gets close to where blu-ray was in 2011), I think they might also hold back even on releasing the OOT on regular blu in the meantime. Their fear is probably that the fans will go out and buy a remastered OOT blu and then, several years from now, when they finally get the rights back and release the UHD, those same fans will shrug and say “nah, I’m good.”

It’s like that Wired magazine guy said ten years ago the week the GOUT was released:

“They’re not going to make the fans happy because the happy fan has everything he or she needs.”

Now, I should say I have no problem waiting, so long as they make it worth the wait. If Disney really is archiving every piece of Star Wars material, here’s how I’d want my ideal release:

For each of the OT films:

Disc 1: The “final” version.

Presumably this is what RMW was working on, a 4k scan of the o-neg with the 04/11 changes replicated/upscaled. Possibly this could have additional final tweaks, like if that rumor about Han shooting first again turned out to be true, for example.

Disc 2: The 1997 Special Edition

Since the '97 interpositives are presumably still in good shape, I would want a 4k scan of that as the starting point. It would ensure that the colors were how they looked in theaters in '97. If we’ve still got the cinema DTS discs floating around all these years later, remastering the '97 SE exactly as it looked and sounded should be relatively straightforward.

Disc 3: The original theatrical version

Ideally I would want them to hire someone like Robert A. Harris to supervise this, using strictly 1977-1983 material. I would only want them using the o-neg if there’s some foolproof way of only using the pre-97 material. He said rather confidently in a message board post several years ago that he could restore the original versions using the separation masters. Not quite sure what they would use to remaster the theatrical sound mix, perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can chime in.

Anyway, I’d also want the theatrical cut of TPM, even if they had to do a scan of the '99 “o-neg” or the IP. The Imax version of AotC would be a bonus as well.

Hmmm, if we hear nothing at Celebration can we start a new petition?

JawsTDS said:

All this talk makes me wonder why J.J. funded a remastering of PHANTASM but not STAR WARS '77. Then again, I suppose they were already in the process of the 4k scans by the time he was in talks to direct TFA.

I have a feeling the 4k remaster was commissioned before George even sold the company.* We first saw those clips in RMW’s reel in July of 2014 so who knows how long they’d been working on it by that point.

*yes, despite what we always told ourselves about how George “wants the OT stuck at 1080p so that it doesn’t look better than the PT,” which, considering how home video tech is always improving, would make zero sense, even for him.

Hardcore Legend said:

For Disney, the idea of ‘everything matters’ outweighs restoring the OT to it’s original release cut. Disney wants everything to ‘fit’ both stylistically and in effects. I would wager they would be more interested in updating the SE SFX to fit in with Rogue One than from removing the SE changes. In fact, I bet they have a higher priority on making changes to the PT than working on a OUT. The SE is the canon they operate around now.

The only thing that makes the OUT seem likely is the preservation Disney is doing on the original footage. Archiving the OT gives them the opportunity, but I doubt they will spend any extra money or effort on putting the original cut back together.

Maybe they would spend the money to redo the SE’s cgi, but it would be expensive and the '97 shots look “good enough” so I don’t think they’d bother.

They’re not going to redo the cgi every twenty years so it matches the quality of the newest Star Wars movies. If anything there seems to be a conscious effort in TFA and RO to replicate via cgi the look of the model work from the OT.

ray_afraid said:

I dunno if it’s been mentioned, but not taking a year off after ESB to spend with his wife (as he had promised) was the beginning of the end in many ways. I might list that as the #1.

This might be the first time I’ve heard that story.

We never would’ve gotten Raiders, though. Speaking of which, Indy came along and kind of stole the focus that should’ve been kept on Jedi. At least, I’ve always thought so.

emanswfan said:

The fam wanted to watch ROTJ tonight and I misplaced my despecialized copy…yeah I loathe the SE changes of ROTJ the most…I had myself leave the room because knowing my level of irritation would probably piss off some of the family members I am forced to deal with (PT is superior, TFA is bad). Oh boy…

So yeah…they need to release OUT officially on blu-ray and/or 4k…save me…

… and since I apparently need to own the blu-rays in order to ethically download and enjoy Harmy’s version and that’s never going to happen …

Even then, going through all the trouble of downloading Harmy’s version and burning it to a disc requires a level of technical know-how not everyone possesses. It’s no wonder people sell it on ebay.

Alderaan said:

Also, Robert Harris last posted about Star Wars on another forum in December. While he did not say anything specific, one could gather in an indirect way from his post that no OOT restoration is underway, or at least not one that he is aware of.

It’s possible that one could be completed and he simply does not know about it, but I really doubt that would be the case.

That’s my biggest question wrt Making Star Wars’ rumor. If an announcement is right around the corner then how the hell has LFL kept such a tight lid on it? Granted, MSW “can’t reveal their sources, blah, blah, blah,” so who knows.

Question:

When did we first hear word - even if it was just rumor at first - that the OT would finally be hitting dvd in 2004?

I remember the 2006 GOUT announcement. There wasn’t so much as a rumor about it until like the day before IIRC, so no need to refresh my memory there.

Then there’s the blu-ray, when did we first hear about that? My earliest memory is seeing the video of George saying “it’s coming next year” at the convention in 2010.

NeverarGreat said:

With the quality of fan restorations becoming available for Star Wars, I don’t much care what official product they release - no matter what, Star Wars won’t be a ‘lost film’.

There are a great many less-well-known films needing preservation or restoration, and there are probably a lot where a fan restoration is necessary. I hope that in the near future they get the attention they deserve.

THIS, a million times over.

I’ve already made up my mind not to buy anything Star Wars related on blu-ray, not even if it’s a future-proofed 4k combo, until the OOT is given its due. I’ll go see the new movies in the theater, but that’s it. I’ve still never bought the blu-rays, sure ain’t going to now. There are plenty of other movie restorations on blu-ray I’d rather spend my hard-earned money on.

Burying the originals is obviously George’s worst decision, but at a close second I would say his decision to shoot AotC and RotS on measly 2/3" digital cameras long before that technology was ready (it’s only in the last four or five years that we’ve gotten digital cameras that even come close to replicating the look of actual 35mm cinemascope) and his obsession with green screen and cgi in general.

I also want to say “directing the prequels himself,” but it’s hard to blame him for that when he offered the job to his friends (Howard, Zemeckis, et al) and they all turned it down saying George should do it. I guess it’s all their fault!

Then there’s the creation of the Special Edition, which ultimately should never have happened, but a world where the SE never happened kind of goes hand in hand with a world where George successfully handed over the PT to other directors (or at least directed it himself without going digital crazy).

SwissArmyTin said:

Fang Zei said:

Disney half-assing an OOT release

That, pretty much. They should either go big or go home, but if they decide to half-ass it, that’s how they’d probably do it.

It brings us back to the question of whether or not they should use the o-neg as a starting point, scan in the pieces that were removed in '97, and meticulously reconstruct it from there. In other words a professional version of what Harmy did. As stated earlier in the thread, all of the optical wipes were redone in '97 with - IIRC - the wipes beginning and ending on different frames than the original version. I seem to recall a screenshot comparison years ago between two different versions of the wipe from the shot of the falcon and the remaining ships flying back to Yavin IV and the shot of Luke climbing out of the x-wing.

The fear we all have with that method of restoring the unaltered versions is the potential for them to miss something and then we end up with a '97 change in our otherwise original version. Sure, maybe it will be something 99% of the viewers won’t notice and it won’t detract from their enjoyment of the film, but I look at this from a standpoint of historical preservation. I want this to be exactly what was seen during the original runs of these movies. If that means going to a source other than the o-neg, so be it.