Fang Zei

poita said:

“Did it stop Ridley Scott from remastering those cuts and releasing them together?? Nope”

The difference here is that Ridley Scott wanted to do it, whereas George Lucas and Kennedy actively don’t want it to happen.

It would have made perfect sense to have the BD boxset include the OUT if it was a matter of it being slightly more profitable to do so.

"Another example is how a few years ago Kino released a cut of the silent film Metropolis with restored footage not seen since the original release. "
I was involved with the Kino release, the restoration cost was bugger all and there were no royalties to be paid. Prints were borrowed from collectors, it was a simple, quick money grab that only had to move a few units to be profitable, and not a single person out there that didn’t want it to happen. Again totally different situation to the OUT.

Companies suck, for Disney to care about something, it has to be worth many, many millions for them to bother. If an SE 4K release would make $300 million or $305 million by taking the risk of packing in an OUT, then they would never take the risk. $5 million return is pocket change, and a risk is always a risk. It will cost them millions to restore the OUT, even with having the scans in place, the sound restoration on SW for the SE cost $8 million alone.

I want it to happen, but can’t conceive of a universe where it will happen in the next ten years.

There are a ton of LFL people at Siggraph this year, I’ll be canvassing all of them, and already know quite a few, but I am pretty sure the answer will be the same as that from the ones I have already spoken to. Not a ‘maybe’ or a ‘no’ or a ‘no comment’ but a ‘huh?’

Was it even Ridley’s idea to include the various earlier cuts or was that Charles de Lauzirika’s doing?

We don’t know what Kennedy does/doesn’t want to do with the OOT. All we know is that she isn’t going to go changing George’s versions, which should’ve been a given anyway (again, why couldn’t that guy just have asked her what we all wanted to ask her???).

I’m convinced George would have eventually double-dipped on the blu-ray and included the original versions if the Disney deal hadn’t happened. He’d already stopped saying it was his “vision” and switched to “it’s too expensive right now” (translation: “Why include it on the first blu-ray when I can just sell it to you all over again?”).

As for the $300/305 million debate, consider the fact that by the time a 4k UHD release rolls around many people will still not have upgraded their hardware to 4k. They’ll need a good reason to buy these movies again on regular 1080p blu-ray since a 4k remaster won’t make much of a difference.

Including the OOT is that reason.

Also, consider how the initial blu-ray release was handled. You had to buy the I-VI set in order to get those three extra discs of bonus features, right? Well, who is to say they won’t do the exact same thing in 2020 … except this time those three extra discs will be the OOT?

Agreed on everything else, though. And yes, please ask as many “in-the-know” people as you can about the OT’s current status. We appreciate the effort!

joefavs said:

I actually have seen the Criterion release of Benjamin Button at WalMart.

Yeah, but that was the initial home video release of the movie.

Paramount licensed the movie to Criterion just like Disney did The Life Aquatic.

I could see the big box stores carrying a Criterion release of Star Wars though, if only because it would definitely sell well.

But this brings me back around to why I think that would never happen.

For one thing, isn’t Criterion usually pretty big on presenting the movie as the director intended? Because for Star Wars that definitely ain’t the OOT. Also, I just don’t see Disney licensing it when they’ve already got to work out a deal with Fox over ANH. That would be three different companies handling one movie.

But even that doesn’t seem as big of a road block to me as George still being around to voice his opinion on it.

Criterion has released at least two movies he was involved with (Kagemusha and Mishima: A Life In Four Parts) and they interviewed him for their release of The Hidden Fortress. Would they really feel comfortable going behind his back like that?

I’d really think that including it as “bonus material” on Disney’s official release of the SE is the much more likely scenario. Clearly labeling it as the “rough draft” George always considered it feels more respectful of his wishes than a Criterion release of just the OUT.

But dammit, I still want my '97 SE and theatrical TPM/AotC.

SilverWook said:

Didn’t know they had ever done any Fox titles.

It all depends on how much Disney/Lucasfilm cares about the OOT. If they don’t see a niche label release competing with their own SE trilogy releases, they might be okay with it. There were standard Laserdiscs and DVD’s of Armageddon and The Rock concurrent with the Criterion releases.
Criterion doesn’t really advertise beyond it’s devoted fanbase, and you don’t see their titles for sale at Walmart.

A downside I can think of, if it ever came to that, is we would have to kiss any chance of seeing the theatrical prequels goodbye.

SilverWook said:

I could see Criterion making it happen. They did lavish editions of Armageddon and The Rock, films released through Disney’s other studio divisions.

There was also a Criterion of Kagemusha, a movie released by Fox.

I don’t see the Criterion scenario ever happening, though. We’ve been dreaming about that ever since the GOUT and it just seem unrealistic that one of the most popular movie franchises ever wouldn’t be handled directly by its copyright holder.

In my mind it’s so much simpler, though.

When it comes time to release these movies on 4k, that’s when they include the OOT. They could even put it out on regular blu-ray since many people will still not have upgraded their hardware.

Yes, I know, “the SE in 4k will be reason enough for people to buy it.” But that’s where I disagree.

Either way, Poita, I commend your efforts. This is an important piece of film history and the 35mm prints should be preserved in the highest possible quality.

rodneyfaile said:

So few people even know anything about the special edition changes. Of the few who do know about them, I am surprised how few really care. You’d think changes to such a beloved trilogy of movies and the suppression of the original versions would send the large passionate fan base into a frenzy.

Nope.

Pretty quiet.

While standing in various lines at Star Wars Celebration, I was surprised how other fans didn’t want to chat about the possibility of an OUT release, even during the 40th anniversary of the original. I even got a few eye rolls. I could barely believe it. Nothing is going to change anytime soon, which means the desire for the original versions is just going to become more and more obscure because the vast majority doesn’t even know and the few who do don’t even care.

Lucas succeeded. He changed history.

I don’t think it’s going to happen. Ever. Enjoy your fan made projects. My Harmy blu-rays have a place of honor among my collection. Disney/Lucasfilm and the majority of fans are more concerned with the new movies now. I love the new movies too, but it is a shame we have forgotten where they came from. The number of people who care about the OUT is only going to decrease.

The SE of Star Wars is still the most well-known “other version” of a movie ever.

Sure, there are many people who know and don’t care. That’s simply what happens when you’ve got such a large fandom. The people at Celebration aren’t really a good sample demographic for gauging people’s interest in the OOT. A lot of them are “Star Wars fans” first and “movie fans” second.

In my opinion, the ones clamoring for the OOT on blu-ray are movie fans first and foremost.

Nigel said:

I don’t think Disney will release the unaltered versions because they are still in the vaults of George Lucas. Kathleen Kennedy also stated that she never touched those versions and that they all belong to Mr. Lucas.

They are in Lucasfilm’s vaults, not George’s.

Kennedy said she would never touch his versions, meaning she would never allow further changes to the SE not done by him. This does not necessarily mean she wouldn’t consider including the original versions alongside George’s preferred version.

That guy who interviewed her at SWCO did not ask her specifically about whether the unaltered versions will ever be restored and released, if that was even his intention.

I think Disney/Lucasfilm will wait until after Episode IX to comment on this matter at all.

I only saw TFA and RO once each in the theater, in regular-sized 2D, and didn’t buy RO on blu-ray.

Meanwhile, I’ve still never bought any iteration of the I-VI blu-rays.

The amount of money I’ve spent on anything else Star Wars over the last several years is precisely zero.

Don’t blame me.

DrDre said:

Fang Zei said:

NFBisms said:

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Again, this doesn’t make any sense though and doesn’t hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny. If they didn’t want to share money with Fox, they wouldn’t be selling the Blurays right now, at all. The distribution rights aren’t faintly related to the lack of OOT release in way at all.

“Not selling Star Wars anywhere, at all” is what doesn’t make sense.

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

I don’t buy the idea of a huge spike in profits. The OOT has become relic of the past, mostly desired by purists. If anything interest for them seems to be waning with each year that passes.

Well, I’m convinced they’re going to wait until the 4k UHD release to include the OOT, and they’re definitely going to wait until at least 2020 for the 4k release.

Lust-In-Phaze said:

Fang Zei said:

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

That doesn’t make any sense though. If that were the case, that wouldn’t stop them from working on such a release at the present time, which they aren’t. It can take years for a restoration on this scale to be finished, and if they aren’t going to sell it until 2020 anyway, there’s no reason for them not to get a head start on it now if that was there intent.

How long did the Coppola Restoration of Godfather I&II take?

Even if they didn’t start working on it until 2018, two years seems like a long enough time.

I guess no one caught what I was going for.

The ship gets badly damaged in the second movie (WoK/STID) and destroyed in the third (SFS/Beyond).

NFBisms said:

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Again, this doesn’t make any sense though and doesn’t hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny. If they didn’t want to share money with Fox, they wouldn’t be selling the Blurays right now, at all. The distribution rights aren’t faintly related to the lack of OOT release in way at all.

“Not selling Star Wars anywhere, at all” is what doesn’t make sense.

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

Mocata said:

If they are not doing anything right now, I don’t see how 2020 is a realistic date.

It’s simple, they don’t want to do anything other than reissuing the 2011 discs until the rights are back in their hands (with the previously noted exception of ANH, which will never be back in their hands anyway).

This is all nonsense. Releasing a new set has nothing to do with distribution rights. If that were the case, Disney would pull all copies off the shelves and just wait until 2020 to sell anything. They wouldn’t be selling the Blurays AT ALL.

Just like what happened with VHS, DVD, and Bluray, they will wait until the next technology becomes widely adopted by consumers, and then they will issue a new set with an updated master. For obvious reasons, that will most likely be after the ST is completed, so they can issue a 4k set of all the movies.

When they do issue the 4K set…3 years from now, 5 years from now, etc…it will be the SE version if it is left up to Kennedy and LFL, which it likely will be. The only way to get an official OOT release is for their bosses at Disney to order them to make it happen. The only way their bosses at Disney would ever do that is if you, the fans, call it to their attention and force them to do so. Most likely with your wallet.

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Mocata said:

If they are not doing anything right now, I don’t see how 2020 is a realistic date.

It’s simple, they don’t want to do anything other than reissuing the 2011 discs until the rights are back in their hands (with the previously noted exception of ANH, which will never be back in their hands anyway).

Yes, it’s reckless of them to wait so long and risk further deterioration of the source elements, and Poita’s efforts are commendable, but I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about the 2020 thing.

It can’t just be a coincidence that the Enterprise gets badly damaged in the second movie and destroyed in the third, can it?

Lord Tobias said:

I fear that disney won’t be able to move foward

Disney needs new hope and han to shoot first again for their to be headlines

And they only are entitled to 5 films distribution rights

Disney will simply pay Fox its cut for ANH starting in May of 2020 when Lucasfilm gains full rights to Empire, Jedi, and the prequels.

The current blu-rays will likely be phased out in 2019 and the 4k UHD release timed for Fall of 2020. It would be perfect timing since the 4k disc format will need at least until then to gain enough traction for as high-profile a catalogue title as the OT.

Since Disney will want as many people as possible buying it (and also an excuse to charge as much money as they can for it), the OOT will likely be included. They’d probably also release it on regular blu-ray.

That’s my prediction, anyway.

doubleofive said:

Or, any kind of restoration would be done internally to LFL and general Disney restorationists wouldn’t know anything about it.

Better safe than sorry, but yes, I agree.

We’re not going to know either way until 2019 at the earliest.

kellyliston2017 said:

I realize this is kind of morbid, but in The Empire Strikes Back when Luke’s hand is cut off by Vader, does it seem weird to anyone else that he doesn’t bleed more? I know George Lucas wants to keep the movies PG but if he could get a way with showing a bloody arm in A New Hope in the Mos Eisley Cantina scene and that made movie was PG, then why wasn’t there blood gushing from Luke’s wrist? I mean…come on! Really? You can’t show him smear blood on his outfit or anything while Vader tells him he’s his father? I don’t know. It’s a little morbid but it seems that scene should be bloodier.

I remember reading somewhere that the MPAA originally gave Star Wars a G rating and Lucas requested it be bumped up to PG. I’d be very curious if the G was still with everything in the finished movie (like Owen and Beru’s charred corpses and the aforementioned bloody arm) or if those shots were added later.

I actually don’t mind so long as it’s not Tatooine again for a very long time, and even then I’d want a damn good reason to go back. It was pointless enough having Luke go back there in RotJ other than Lucas checking off “the hero returns home” from his Joseph Campbell cheat sheet.

Humby said:

Fang Zei said:

Slavicuss said:

It’s been five years and still nothing. They’re too busy catering to the lightsaber-waving crowd by producing mediocre crap.

Oh, there’s no doubt.

If people were to stop buying Star Wars merch tomorrow, Lucasfilm would immediately look for other ways of making money and you-know-what would be right at the top of the list.

Disney doesn’t acquire distribution rights of 1-6 until May of 2020 (and Fox will ALWAYS own 4, unless Disney can strike a deal with them). Even if they were planning on releasing the OOT, they would stay mum until late 2019 at the absolute earliest.

I have a feeling that after Episode 9 comes out, we will start to hear some rumblings, and by 2020 Disney will push marketing for an ultimate box set. If there was ever a time to release the OOT, it would be with a box set, forcing everyone who wants it to dish out $$$ and double down on any of the films they already own.

Frankly, I’m already assuming that they will instead give us yet another updated special edition, but we can pray to Vader that they show some damn respect and include the OOT as a bonus.

I suspect this is exactly what will happen.

joefavs said:

I was just at the book store and I noticed that the current paperback anthology of the OT novelizations has the slightly taller dimensions of the canon Disney novels rather than the traditional mass market paperback size that all the Legends material is. Maybe they did quietly recanonize them after all.

Well, to the layman, the weird thing about slapping “legends” on the covers would be that the novelizations of the very things kept within canon aren’t canon. So maybe they left the legends label off to avoid confusion.

Slavicuss said:

Fang Zei said:

robertelee said:

I’m really saddened by how little activity there was. I and a couple others were very proactive about trying to spread it, but is seems the world does not care.

There are more important things to worry about in this world, really.

It’s Disney that should be taking the initiative for the sake of film history.

It’s been five years and still nothing. They’re too busy catering to the lightsaber-waving crowd by producing mediocre crap.

Oh, there’s no doubt.

If people were to stop buying Star Wars merch tomorrow, Lucasfilm would immediately look for other ways of making money and you-know-what would be right at the top of the list.

robertelee said:

I’m really saddened by how little activity there was. I and a couple others were very proactive about trying to spread it, but is seems the world does not care.

There are more important things to worry about in this world, really.

It’s Disney that should be taking the initiative for the sake of film history.

rodneyfaile said:

I wonder how many times the unaltered versions came up in conversation.

I’d be interested in knowing who was most chiefly responsible for the shots that were replaced with cgi in the SE. Even then, most of the other shots were digitally recomposited. So whoever did the original optical compositing had their work erased.

rodneyfaile said:

Fang Zei said:

crissrudd4554 said:

Maybe someday when something you worked hard on and received a lot of recognition for is just suddenly replaced by something else you’ll understand. I doubt much of that event was spent crapping on Lucas but nonetheless it is a bit bittersweet for them to all be gathered together for one event to celebrate SW40 when much of the work they did isn’t even in the film anymore.

(since I’m too lazy to check)

Were any of the alums who ended up going along with the alterations twenty years later present at this get-together? I’m talking about people like Muren (he’s actually the only one I can think of off the top of my head).

“Effects legends such as John Dykstra, Joe Johnston, Richard Edlund, Phil Tippett, Ken Ralston, Chris Evans, Lorne Peterson, Paul Huston, Scott Farrar, Steve Gawley, Bill George, Jean Bolte, Craig Barron, Harrison Ellenshaw, Robert Blalack, and many, many others were in attendance as were Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian, Gary Kurtz, Sid Gannis, Tom Smith, Ben Burtt.”

Was Muren even there?