Fang Zei

This kind of brings me back around to what I was saying earlier about the initial blu-ray from 2011 only including the three bonus discs in the “complete saga” set.

Lucasfilm could totally put together something similar, with the “bonus discs” being the OOT this time, and could even make it an extra special SKU you’d have to pay $200* for and that they’d only press out in limited quantities. I mean, they’re oh so sure only an extreme minority of the fans even care about those rough drafts anymore, right? The “regular” I-VI set, without the OOT, would be the more commonly available / less expensive item.

I’m just brainstorming, of course. But if they really feel like they’d be “forcing” the fans to buy original versions they might not ever want to watch (irony), then that’s one way of solving the problem. Then when the OOT sells out in minutes they maybe realize they underestimated the demand.

*Although, for that price I’d also want the '97 versions, the theatrical prequels, and the Imax cut of AotC.

Would someone please re-explain to me what the whole “GOUT-syncing” thing is and when/why we started talking about it?

A lot of people hated Star Trek Into Darkness and Episode VII still turned out okay. Super 8 also didn’t get the warmest reception.

The difference here is that Abrams’ first two movies reinvigorated existing franchises, whereas it feels like Lucasfilm only focused on the box office and not the actual reviews of Jurassic World when recruiting Trevorrow.

poita said:

Fang Zei said:

I just see it as an inevitability when plenty of other, less-popular movies are preserved alongside their revisions.

Just yesterday I was reading the breakdown for Kino Lorber’s blu-ray of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it literally felt like I was reading the first post of a thread in our fan restoration forum.

You mean the one Kino isn’t getting right?

Please explain how. I’m unfamiliar with whatever the issue is.

SilverWook said:

Too bad we can’t add a bunch of CGI crap to The Wizard of Oz just to see if anybody notices. Purely as a thought experiment of course.
If any movie is burned into the public consciousness, it’s that one.

There was an IMAX 3D version several years ago. Does that count?

I just see it as an inevitability when plenty of other, less-popular movies are preserved alongside their revisions.

Just yesterday I was reading the breakdown for Kino Lorber’s blu-ray of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it literally felt like I was reading the first post of a thread in our fan restoration forum.

poita said:

Yeah, without the original Director/Producer/Writer (GL) on board, it makes it more unlikely for a third party like Criterion to have a go at it.

Also, I think people underestimate just how much George hates the originals vs the Special Editions. There is no way he ever would have double dipped and released them. I think part of it is also tied to Marcia and their fallout.

George actually laughed with glee when shown Han stepping on Jabba’s tail for the first time, and considered it one of the best things they had ever done. He loves the vision of the SE, and that’s cool, he is allowed to, but you really have to understand just how much he doesn’t want the originals to exist anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone has their own opinion on this stuff, mine is that it isn’t going to happen so we need to do it properly, others will be convinced it will happen, and honestly I hope they are right, but I don’t believe there is a shred of evidence or even a scenario where it could be vaguely probable to happen.

In regards to Marcia, are you referring to the theory that she got a cut of the OT’s sales until the SE came along and negated it? I thought that rumor was debunked. Unless you’re referring to something else.

SilverWook said:

I did spot Life Aquatic at Target a couple times.

How deeply was George involved with those films though? IIRC, they got about a page each in that book on Lucas that came with the Definitive Collection Laserdisc box. I think Howard The Duck had a longer entry. 😉

And we’re back again to the matter or whether George still gives a crap or not. Maybe a multi disc set ala Brazil that included the awful happy ending tv cut?

Brazil is actually a good example since Universal put out the U.S. theatrical cut on blu-ray and then Criterion put out theirs a couple years later with Gilliam’s preferred version (and, yes, the “love conquers all” version in 1080i as a bonus feature).

I actually could see something similar happening with Star Wars going forward. Disney would keep handling I-VI as they see fit, but in the meantime Criterion could put together their own release. George doesn’t really consider the ST (the one we’re getting, anyway) as part of “his” saga, right? Criterion could give us “The Tragedy of Darth Vader” and make it that “film school in a box” someone mentioned George always intended. Most importantly, they could include freshly remastered transfers of the original versions to give the proper historical context for these films. I doubt George would mind. He might even do another interview with them! It would make for a nice time capsule years from now when he’s not around to talk about these movies anymore.

Get Disney and Fox to sign off on it and voila, we would have our dream scenario.

Disney will probably want to keep whatever they end up doing with their releases of I-VI on the simple side. They’ll probably want to get it down to one disc per movie so they can eventually put out a box set that includes Rogue One, Han Solo, and the ST and still be able to sell it for a reasonable price.

Of course, I’d also want the OOT available on 4k UHD and Criterion hasn’t announced their plans for supporting the new format, but that could change in time.

poita said:

“Did it stop Ridley Scott from remastering those cuts and releasing them together?? Nope”

The difference here is that Ridley Scott wanted to do it, whereas George Lucas and Kennedy actively don’t want it to happen.

It would have made perfect sense to have the BD boxset include the OUT if it was a matter of it being slightly more profitable to do so.

"Another example is how a few years ago Kino released a cut of the silent film Metropolis with restored footage not seen since the original release. "
I was involved with the Kino release, the restoration cost was bugger all and there were no royalties to be paid. Prints were borrowed from collectors, it was a simple, quick money grab that only had to move a few units to be profitable, and not a single person out there that didn’t want it to happen. Again totally different situation to the OUT.

Companies suck, for Disney to care about something, it has to be worth many, many millions for them to bother. If an SE 4K release would make $300 million or $305 million by taking the risk of packing in an OUT, then they would never take the risk. $5 million return is pocket change, and a risk is always a risk. It will cost them millions to restore the OUT, even with having the scans in place, the sound restoration on SW for the SE cost $8 million alone.

I want it to happen, but can’t conceive of a universe where it will happen in the next ten years.

There are a ton of LFL people at Siggraph this year, I’ll be canvassing all of them, and already know quite a few, but I am pretty sure the answer will be the same as that from the ones I have already spoken to. Not a ‘maybe’ or a ‘no’ or a ‘no comment’ but a ‘huh?’

Was it even Ridley’s idea to include the various earlier cuts or was that Charles de Lauzirika’s doing?

We don’t know what Kennedy does/doesn’t want to do with the OOT. All we know is that she isn’t going to go changing George’s versions, which should’ve been a given anyway (again, why couldn’t that guy just have asked her what we all wanted to ask her???).

I’m convinced George would have eventually double-dipped on the blu-ray and included the original versions if the Disney deal hadn’t happened. He’d already stopped saying it was his “vision” and switched to “it’s too expensive right now” (translation: “Why include it on the first blu-ray when I can just sell it to you all over again?”).

As for the $300/305 million debate, consider the fact that by the time a 4k UHD release rolls around many people will still not have upgraded their hardware to 4k. They’ll need a good reason to buy these movies again on regular 1080p blu-ray since a 4k remaster won’t make much of a difference.

Including the OOT is that reason.

Also, consider how the initial blu-ray release was handled. You had to buy the I-VI set in order to get those three extra discs of bonus features, right? Well, who is to say they won’t do the exact same thing in 2020 … except this time those three extra discs will be the OOT?

Agreed on everything else, though. And yes, please ask as many “in-the-know” people as you can about the OT’s current status. We appreciate the effort!

joefavs said:

I actually have seen the Criterion release of Benjamin Button at WalMart.

Yeah, but that was the initial home video release of the movie.

Paramount licensed the movie to Criterion just like Disney did The Life Aquatic.

I could see the big box stores carrying a Criterion release of Star Wars though, if only because it would definitely sell well.

But this brings me back around to why I think that would never happen.

For one thing, isn’t Criterion usually pretty big on presenting the movie as the director intended? Because for Star Wars that definitely ain’t the OOT. Also, I just don’t see Disney licensing it when they’ve already got to work out a deal with Fox over ANH. That would be three different companies handling one movie.

But even that doesn’t seem as big of a road block to me as George still being around to voice his opinion on it.

Criterion has released at least two movies he was involved with (Kagemusha and Mishima: A Life In Four Parts) and they interviewed him for their release of The Hidden Fortress. Would they really feel comfortable going behind his back like that?

I’d really think that including it as “bonus material” on Disney’s official release of the SE is the much more likely scenario. Clearly labeling it as the “rough draft” George always considered it feels more respectful of his wishes than a Criterion release of just the OUT.

But dammit, I still want my '97 SE and theatrical TPM/AotC.

SilverWook said:

Didn’t know they had ever done any Fox titles.

It all depends on how much Disney/Lucasfilm cares about the OOT. If they don’t see a niche label release competing with their own SE trilogy releases, they might be okay with it. There were standard Laserdiscs and DVD’s of Armageddon and The Rock concurrent with the Criterion releases.
Criterion doesn’t really advertise beyond it’s devoted fanbase, and you don’t see their titles for sale at Walmart.

A downside I can think of, if it ever came to that, is we would have to kiss any chance of seeing the theatrical prequels goodbye.

SilverWook said:

I could see Criterion making it happen. They did lavish editions of Armageddon and The Rock, films released through Disney’s other studio divisions.

There was also a Criterion of Kagemusha, a movie released by Fox.

I don’t see the Criterion scenario ever happening, though. We’ve been dreaming about that ever since the GOUT and it just seem unrealistic that one of the most popular movie franchises ever wouldn’t be handled directly by its copyright holder.

In my mind it’s so much simpler, though.

When it comes time to release these movies on 4k, that’s when they include the OOT. They could even put it out on regular blu-ray since many people will still not have upgraded their hardware.

Yes, I know, “the SE in 4k will be reason enough for people to buy it.” But that’s where I disagree.

Either way, Poita, I commend your efforts. This is an important piece of film history and the 35mm prints should be preserved in the highest possible quality.

rodneyfaile said:

So few people even know anything about the special edition changes. Of the few who do know about them, I am surprised how few really care. You’d think changes to such a beloved trilogy of movies and the suppression of the original versions would send the large passionate fan base into a frenzy.

Nope.

Pretty quiet.

While standing in various lines at Star Wars Celebration, I was surprised how other fans didn’t want to chat about the possibility of an OUT release, even during the 40th anniversary of the original. I even got a few eye rolls. I could barely believe it. Nothing is going to change anytime soon, which means the desire for the original versions is just going to become more and more obscure because the vast majority doesn’t even know and the few who do don’t even care.

Lucas succeeded. He changed history.

I don’t think it’s going to happen. Ever. Enjoy your fan made projects. My Harmy blu-rays have a place of honor among my collection. Disney/Lucasfilm and the majority of fans are more concerned with the new movies now. I love the new movies too, but it is a shame we have forgotten where they came from. The number of people who care about the OUT is only going to decrease.

The SE of Star Wars is still the most well-known “other version” of a movie ever.

Sure, there are many people who know and don’t care. That’s simply what happens when you’ve got such a large fandom. The people at Celebration aren’t really a good sample demographic for gauging people’s interest in the OOT. A lot of them are “Star Wars fans” first and “movie fans” second.

In my opinion, the ones clamoring for the OOT on blu-ray are movie fans first and foremost.

Nigel said:

I don’t think Disney will release the unaltered versions because they are still in the vaults of George Lucas. Kathleen Kennedy also stated that she never touched those versions and that they all belong to Mr. Lucas.

They are in Lucasfilm’s vaults, not George’s.

Kennedy said she would never touch his versions, meaning she would never allow further changes to the SE not done by him. This does not necessarily mean she wouldn’t consider including the original versions alongside George’s preferred version.

That guy who interviewed her at SWCO did not ask her specifically about whether the unaltered versions will ever be restored and released, if that was even his intention.

I think Disney/Lucasfilm will wait until after Episode IX to comment on this matter at all.

I only saw TFA and RO once each in the theater, in regular-sized 2D, and didn’t buy RO on blu-ray.

Meanwhile, I’ve still never bought any iteration of the I-VI blu-rays.

The amount of money I’ve spent on anything else Star Wars over the last several years is precisely zero.

Don’t blame me.

DrDre said:

Fang Zei said:

NFBisms said:

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Again, this doesn’t make any sense though and doesn’t hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny. If they didn’t want to share money with Fox, they wouldn’t be selling the Blurays right now, at all. The distribution rights aren’t faintly related to the lack of OOT release in way at all.

“Not selling Star Wars anywhere, at all” is what doesn’t make sense.

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

I don’t buy the idea of a huge spike in profits. The OOT has become relic of the past, mostly desired by purists. If anything interest for them seems to be waning with each year that passes.

Well, I’m convinced they’re going to wait until the 4k UHD release to include the OOT, and they’re definitely going to wait until at least 2020 for the 4k release.

Lust-In-Phaze said:

Fang Zei said:

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

That doesn’t make any sense though. If that were the case, that wouldn’t stop them from working on such a release at the present time, which they aren’t. It can take years for a restoration on this scale to be finished, and if they aren’t going to sell it until 2020 anyway, there’s no reason for them not to get a head start on it now if that was there intent.

How long did the Coppola Restoration of Godfather I&II take?

Even if they didn’t start working on it until 2018, two years seems like a long enough time.

I guess no one caught what I was going for.

The ship gets badly damaged in the second movie (WoK/STID) and destroyed in the third (SFS/Beyond).

NFBisms said:

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Again, this doesn’t make any sense though and doesn’t hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny. If they didn’t want to share money with Fox, they wouldn’t be selling the Blurays right now, at all. The distribution rights aren’t faintly related to the lack of OOT release in way at all.

“Not selling Star Wars anywhere, at all” is what doesn’t make sense.

Exactly.

It’s not that Disney doesn’t want to share any profits at all with Fox. It’s that they don’t want to share the sudden spike in profits that would come with a 4k/OOT release.

Alderaan said:

Fang Zei said:

Mocata said:

If they are not doing anything right now, I don’t see how 2020 is a realistic date.

It’s simple, they don’t want to do anything other than reissuing the 2011 discs until the rights are back in their hands (with the previously noted exception of ANH, which will never be back in their hands anyway).

This is all nonsense. Releasing a new set has nothing to do with distribution rights. If that were the case, Disney would pull all copies off the shelves and just wait until 2020 to sell anything. They wouldn’t be selling the Blurays AT ALL.

Just like what happened with VHS, DVD, and Bluray, they will wait until the next technology becomes widely adopted by consumers, and then they will issue a new set with an updated master. For obvious reasons, that will most likely be after the ST is completed, so they can issue a 4k set of all the movies.

When they do issue the 4K set…3 years from now, 5 years from now, etc…it will be the SE version if it is left up to Kennedy and LFL, which it likely will be. The only way to get an official OOT release is for their bosses at Disney to order them to make it happen. The only way their bosses at Disney would ever do that is if you, the fans, call it to their attention and force them to do so. Most likely with your wallet.

I didn’t say the rights issue was preventing a new release. I said they are intentionally keeping what’s coming next in their back pocket for after May of 2020 so they don’t have to share any of the profits with Fox.

Mocata said:

If they are not doing anything right now, I don’t see how 2020 is a realistic date.

It’s simple, they don’t want to do anything other than reissuing the 2011 discs until the rights are back in their hands (with the previously noted exception of ANH, which will never be back in their hands anyway).

Yes, it’s reckless of them to wait so long and risk further deterioration of the source elements, and Poita’s efforts are commendable, but I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about the 2020 thing.

It can’t just be a coincidence that the Enterprise gets badly damaged in the second movie and destroyed in the third, can it?

Lord Tobias said:

I fear that disney won’t be able to move foward

Disney needs new hope and han to shoot first again for their to be headlines

And they only are entitled to 5 films distribution rights

Disney will simply pay Fox its cut for ANH starting in May of 2020 when Lucasfilm gains full rights to Empire, Jedi, and the prequels.

The current blu-rays will likely be phased out in 2019 and the 4k UHD release timed for Fall of 2020. It would be perfect timing since the 4k disc format will need at least until then to gain enough traction for as high-profile a catalogue title as the OT.

Since Disney will want as many people as possible buying it (and also an excuse to charge as much money as they can for it), the OOT will likely be included. They’d probably also release it on regular blu-ray.

That’s my prediction, anyway.

doubleofive said:

Or, any kind of restoration would be done internally to LFL and general Disney restorationists wouldn’t know anything about it.

Better safe than sorry, but yes, I agree.

We’re not going to know either way until 2019 at the earliest.