Fang Zei

One big thing I never heard anyone talking about is how (unless I’m mistaken) the main reason Man of Steel got made when it did was because WB had to promptly get a Superman film into production as a condition of their settlement with Siegel and Shuster’s estates, or else lose all rights to the character.

Snyder et al weren’t even planning on it being the first installment of a shared DC film pantheon at the time if I remember correctly. Yet, by the time the movie came out, many people assumed that’s exactly what they were doing. The Avengers had just been released the year prior, so cashing in on the superhero cinematic universe craze only made sense. But everyone seemed to have forgotten about the Siegel/Shuster lawsuit, which I’m still assuming is the main reason MoS got made when it did.

They even stayed vague on whether or not this was the same universe as Nolan’s Batman movies. Once BvS was announced, there was a rumor circulating that WB was offering Christian Bale an insane amount of money to return as Bruce Wayne. I’m not sure how valid that rumor ever was, but it’s interesting to consider in retrospect.

Wonder Woman really seems to be the “course correction” of the DCEU many fans were hoping for. I’m even hearing people say things like “oh, if only this one had been the first of these DC universe films.”

But that’s just it. They didn’t really decide to make this the DC equivalent of the MCU until BvS. Suicide Squad wasn’t even connected to the larger milieu in its earlier drafts. I was hearing the same thing about Black Adam, but I can only assume they’ve changes their plans.

It is interesting how we’re finally getting what many consider the “proper” DC movie (complete with a new opening titles logo!) just as The Avengers’ saga comes to a close. I can’t help but wonder how WB would’ve handled their DC properties had the Superman lawsuit not been a concern.

joefavs said:

Swazzy said:

Between this and half of Rogue One being reshot, it seems we won’t ever be getting a new Star Wars film with the director’s vision left entact again.

after that article about Rian Johnson’s near complete creative control on TLJ

I must have missed this somehow.

EDIT: Wait, I’m guessing this was brought up in the spoiler thread (which I’ve been studiously avoiding)?

Ha! I was just thinking last night while watching Moana on Netflix with my sister that it would probably be this time next month that Rogue One shows up.

They’ve followed a pattern of dropping a movie three and a half months after it hits disc. For example, Captain America: Civil War streeted on blu-ray mid-September and debuted on Netflix Christmas Day.

On a side note, I still haven’t seen Guardians vol 2. The recent news that it might end up being one of Disney’s first UHD disc releases and thus “future-proofed” makes me kinda want to buy it (I avoided getting Rogue One on blu for this very reason), but then I remember it will likely be up on Netflix by the end of the year. Ditto WB/Fox/Uni movies and HBO (Fox movies even tend to be properly letterboxed when HBO shows them).

I love physical media and the advantages that come along with it, but it’s really no surprise to hear it’s not selling like it used to.

From Variety’s article:

Kennedy had her own ideas about how the film should be shot. In an interview with Variety last year, she said she wanted the film to have “…a heist or Western type feel,” adding, “We’ve talked about [Frederic] Remington and those primary colors that are used in his paintings defining the look and feel of the film.”

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/star-wars-han-solo-kathleen-kennedy-director-fired-1202473919/

After reading that, I struggle to see why they thought Lord and Miller would be a good fit.

“Unexpected this is, and unfortunate.”

What a truly confusing turn of events.

Going solely on the information we’ve been given, it would seem Kennedy and Kasdan had a problem with how Lord & Miller executed the script. I can’t help but be suspicious of whether that’s really the reason or just the spin both sides are putting on it.

I’m sure it’s possible it just took everyone until this point in time to realize things weren’t working out. But only now (at the end, do you understand?) with principal photography almost over? Yikes. I mean, you don’t hire the guys who made 21 and 22 Jump Street and The Lego Movie and not expect them to do their own thing.

You’ve got to wonder just what exactly LFL thought would happen when they hired the guys in the first place. Based on what we’re hearing, the directors had tensions with LFL from day one.

Lucasfilm has now had issues with its directors on both of the standalone movies made so far. Even on TFA we know Abrams tried to gain as much control over this franchise as he could before Kennedy put her foot down. By contrast, the worst that’s happened with TLJ is Rian Johnson asking the release be pushed back from May to December so he’d have more time to work on the script … and LFL complying.

Speaking of which, it will be very interesting to see if this Han Solo movie doesn’t get delayed as well. Sure, they’re sticking to the release date for now (and no, it wouldn’t look good if they pushed it to December in the next couple weeks with less than a year to go), but is there anything huge from other studios currently scheduled for December of next year?

It would be kind of hilarious if this is what finally puts Ron Howard in the director’s chair of a Star Wars prequel.

pittrek said:

Fang Zei said:

What source was used for the early 77 version?

Japanese Special Collection LD shared on myspleen some time ago

Ah, so the print source for that particular laserdisc transfer still had the older version of those effects shots?

Do we know when exactly the TN1 source print is from?

I can’t even see the little white dot ships taking off in the TN1 version. What source was used for the early 77 version?

Also, wasn’t there a new soundmix done in '85 or was it just a port of one of the existing '77 mixes?

The “100 years from now” talk reminds me of why I would want each individual movie to get its own Blade Runner style multi-version blu-ray release.

The historical context of these movies needs to be preserved.

George did also say back in 2012 that “the time has come to pass Star Wars to the next generation of filmmakers.”

I guess that didn’t stop Kennedy from at least asking Spielberg, which is what many people thought she was going to do anyway.

Yeah, but Spielberg always said “Star Wars is George’s baby,” and with the sale to Disney it would kind of be like dating his friend’s ex.

Alderaan said:

Heh, the OMG I LOVE STARS WARS! GIVE ME MORE STAR WARS! crowd all over the internet seems to be really freaking out over Treverrow now.

I don’t want to really criticize a movie I’ve never seen but the reviews don’t look good.

I was going to ask where they were when he was first hired for IX, but then I looked up JW on rotten tomatoes and … yeah, 72% vs 25% for Book of Henry, ouch.

It still baffles me how JW managed to make so much money. We joke about the Transformers movies being critic-proof, but maybe JW only needed to not be Transformers level bad to get a big turnout. The trailers didn’t even sell it very well, aside from a couple cool-looking shots. Nostalgia apparently did all the work for them.

NeverarGreat said:

joefavs said:

Safety Not Guaranteed was one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen, so I’ve been on edge about this from day one. That review excerpt that Alderaan posted for Book of Henry honestly made me morbidly curious, though.

Yeah, quite a few people liked it but I just couldn’t stand the interminable romance or the ending.

The third film in a trilogy is always the hardest to get right, so why Disney seems intent on shooting themselves in the kidney before they even start is beyond me.

After he finishes Ready Player One, Spielberg should just do Episode IX before going into Indiana Jones 5. Or since that franchise is already toast, just skip that and go right into Robopocalypse.

It would be an oh so fitting way of closing off the saga (for now, anyway) since Spielberg would have directed RotJ.

That said, I don’t think they’d switch directors now. Book of Henry is Super 8 if Abrams already knew he was about to make a Star Wars movie and someone else was directing Into Darkness. The reviews and the box office seem rather inconsequential, and there aren’t any bad behind the scenes stories with this director like, say, Trank on Fant4stic.

What was weird to me was how the announcement of Trevorrow for IX seemed to come without any fanfare whatsoever, like it was just perfunctory. “Oh, the guy who made that Jurassic Park movie that just made a bajillion dollars for some reason? okay.”

When they announced Abrams for VII - even though they went with the most obvious possible choice - it was still a big deal, and I was ecstatic when they announced Johnson for VIII.

I actually liked Safety Not Gauranteed, but part of its charm is that it is such a small movie. When he was hired for Jurassic Park 4, someone pointed out that it must have been some kind of record for the biggest jump in budget sizes between a director’s first and second films.

Johnson feels like the happy medium between Abrams and Trevorrow in that respect, since he started small with Brick but his budgets only gradually increased with his next two films, and he’s done some solid tv work in the meantime.

I’d be curious to know what series of events led to Trevorrow’s hiring. Jurassic World had more than a couple connections to Kennedy (a franchise she’d produced and which her husband is still a producer on) and it feels like a repeat of Abrams getting recommended by Spielberg for Episode VII after turning it down. I wonder if that didn’t happen all over again with IX (them going after Spielberg and him having yet another person to recommend).

I feel like we still don’t quite know the full story behind what led to Abrams. Brad Bird fits into the equation somewhere, and Ben Affleck was actually on the shortlist. I’m also wondering if the Matthew Vaughn rumor was ever true.

It’s Rian Johnson’s story I’m the most curious about. With Abrams and Trevorrow it felt like Kennedy was listening to her colleagues. With Johnson it feels like she was listening to the internet.

NeverarGreat said:

The DVD’s were released in 2004, two years after AOTC and a year before ROTS. So perhaps a new release will happen between Episodes 8 and 9, and this also almost fulfills the 7 year pattern.

Or something.

The recent pattern has already been somewhat broken by the 2015 digital release, so this means that the OOT will absolutely arrive in 4K in 2022. Yay!

On the other hand, if we’re going to count the digital release as the saga’s first time on a new format (and we might as well), that means the gap is now only four years and we only have two more years until 4k!

Also, there’s been a reissue of the blu-ray every two years. Theoretically that means we would be due for another physical release of some kind this year, even if it’s just another reissue.

NeverarGreat said:

I think it has more to do with generational differences than anything else. Since the last VHS release of the OT films was in 1995, many people born after 1990 probably haven’t grown up watching the originals. So the vast majority of people 17 years old or younger have no nostalgic connection with these films, and even most people under 30 have had their memory ‘replaced’ with memories of the Special Editions (I was one of these people for a time).

I just turned 32 and started watching these movies at 6 or 7 years old, so I can still clearly remember a time before even the Faces vhs.

When the '04 dvd had just been released, I remember watching it with my best friend from high school on the brand new 60" sony widescreen his family had just recently bought. This was over component cables and with a brand new 5.1 system so it was quite an experience.

Each time one of the changed scenes from '97 came up I would just say in an ominous voice “THE SPECIAL EDITION” and if there were multiple changed shots in a row like in Mos Eisley I would say it twice like I was Everett McGill repeating “THE WATER OF LIFE” in the Alan Smithee version of Dune.

My friend laughed and then said “I actually like the Special Edition.” At the time I actually agreed with him, mostly. He’s actually a full year older than me, and I’m pretty sure he would’ve at least seen the original versions prior to '97 (he mentioned once that he’d seen the SE’s in the theater), but we didn’t meet until '99 so I’ll have to ask him about that someday.

I already knew about the aditional changes that had been done for the dvd, but he didn’t…

We only watched ANH, but he obviously watched the Empire and Jedi discs at some point. I know this because one day we were talking about the subject of the original versions and he said “oh, dude, they put Hayden Christensen into the end of Jedi! wtf?”

A friend of mind from college said pretty much the exact same thing.

I bring this up to illustrate how Hayden as Anakin ended up being a kind of “Greedo shoots first” moment for my generation. Even Family Guy referenced it. I actually didn’t even notice Greedo shooting first when I saw the SE in the theater in '97, making it all the more jarring when I did notice it on vhs (and amusing when Ben Affleck mentioned it in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back).

What Cobra Kai said.

I’ll only add that next year will be seven years since the blu-rays first debuted, just as that was seven years after the dvd, which was seven years after the '97 SE.

If an official OOT restoration ever happens, I wouldn’t expect it until after Episode IX, which means I’m definitely not expecting it next year. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if we finally start hearing some solid news after seven years of the same old blu-rays.

That theory just popped back into my brain again, about how LFL could always give us what we want on regular blu-ray in the short term (even if that means Fox getting a cut of the sales on all six movies), only for us to go through this all over again with 4k in a few years.

We’ll see.

doubleofive said:

Most people, even self professed Star Wars fans, only watch the movies maybe once a decade. The people who should be leading this charge are film preservationists, because the average fan doesn’t even notice the differences.

While we’re on the subject, it’s also worth noting that Star Wars isn’t the only film not available in its original form.

For the longest time, I thought the huge changes were actually a good thing since it would at least highlight the night-and-day difference from the original version and the entire argument for an official preservation. Now I’m starting to come to terms with maybe even that apparently not being enough of a reason and recognizing the need for communities like this.

Even if Lucasfilm does relent some day, there will still be all those other films out there on blu-ray stuck in a revised form.

This kind of brings me back around to what I was saying earlier about the initial blu-ray from 2011 only including the three bonus discs in the “complete saga” set.

Lucasfilm could totally put together something similar, with the “bonus discs” being the OOT this time, and could even make it an extra special SKU you’d have to pay $200* for and that they’d only press out in limited quantities. I mean, they’re oh so sure only an extreme minority of the fans even care about those rough drafts anymore, right? The “regular” I-VI set, without the OOT, would be the more commonly available / less expensive item.

I’m just brainstorming, of course. But if they really feel like they’d be “forcing” the fans to buy original versions they might not ever want to watch (irony), then that’s one way of solving the problem. Then when the OOT sells out in minutes they maybe realize they underestimated the demand.

*Although, for that price I’d also want the '97 versions, the theatrical prequels, and the Imax cut of AotC.

Would someone please re-explain to me what the whole “GOUT-syncing” thing is and when/why we started talking about it?

A lot of people hated Star Trek Into Darkness and Episode VII still turned out okay. Super 8 also didn’t get the warmest reception.

The difference here is that Abrams’ first two movies reinvigorated existing franchises, whereas it feels like Lucasfilm only focused on the box office and not the actual reviews of Jurassic World when recruiting Trevorrow.

poita said:

Fang Zei said:

I just see it as an inevitability when plenty of other, less-popular movies are preserved alongside their revisions.

Just yesterday I was reading the breakdown for Kino Lorber’s blu-ray of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it literally felt like I was reading the first post of a thread in our fan restoration forum.

You mean the one Kino isn’t getting right?

Please explain how. I’m unfamiliar with whatever the issue is.

SilverWook said:

Too bad we can’t add a bunch of CGI crap to The Wizard of Oz just to see if anybody notices. Purely as a thought experiment of course.
If any movie is burned into the public consciousness, it’s that one.

There was an IMAX 3D version several years ago. Does that count?

I just see it as an inevitability when plenty of other, less-popular movies are preserved alongside their revisions.

Just yesterday I was reading the breakdown for Kino Lorber’s blu-ray of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it literally felt like I was reading the first post of a thread in our fan restoration forum.

poita said:

Yeah, without the original Director/Producer/Writer (GL) on board, it makes it more unlikely for a third party like Criterion to have a go at it.

Also, I think people underestimate just how much George hates the originals vs the Special Editions. There is no way he ever would have double dipped and released them. I think part of it is also tied to Marcia and their fallout.

George actually laughed with glee when shown Han stepping on Jabba’s tail for the first time, and considered it one of the best things they had ever done. He loves the vision of the SE, and that’s cool, he is allowed to, but you really have to understand just how much he doesn’t want the originals to exist anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone has their own opinion on this stuff, mine is that it isn’t going to happen so we need to do it properly, others will be convinced it will happen, and honestly I hope they are right, but I don’t believe there is a shred of evidence or even a scenario where it could be vaguely probable to happen.

In regards to Marcia, are you referring to the theory that she got a cut of the OT’s sales until the SE came along and negated it? I thought that rumor was debunked. Unless you’re referring to something else.

SilverWook said:

I did spot Life Aquatic at Target a couple times.

How deeply was George involved with those films though? IIRC, they got about a page each in that book on Lucas that came with the Definitive Collection Laserdisc box. I think Howard The Duck had a longer entry. 😉

And we’re back again to the matter or whether George still gives a crap or not. Maybe a multi disc set ala Brazil that included the awful happy ending tv cut?

Brazil is actually a good example since Universal put out the U.S. theatrical cut on blu-ray and then Criterion put out theirs a couple years later with Gilliam’s preferred version (and, yes, the “love conquers all” version in 1080i as a bonus feature).

I actually could see something similar happening with Star Wars going forward. Disney would keep handling I-VI as they see fit, but in the meantime Criterion could put together their own release. George doesn’t really consider the ST (the one we’re getting, anyway) as part of “his” saga, right? Criterion could give us “The Tragedy of Darth Vader” and make it that “film school in a box” someone mentioned George always intended. Most importantly, they could include freshly remastered transfers of the original versions to give the proper historical context for these films. I doubt George would mind. He might even do another interview with them! It would make for a nice time capsule years from now when he’s not around to talk about these movies anymore.

Get Disney and Fox to sign off on it and voila, we would have our dream scenario.

Disney will probably want to keep whatever they end up doing with their releases of I-VI on the simple side. They’ll probably want to get it down to one disc per movie so they can eventually put out a box set that includes Rogue One, Han Solo, and the ST and still be able to sell it for a reasonable price.

Of course, I’d also want the OOT available on 4k UHD and Criterion hasn’t announced their plans for supporting the new format, but that could change in time.

poita said:

“Did it stop Ridley Scott from remastering those cuts and releasing them together?? Nope”

The difference here is that Ridley Scott wanted to do it, whereas George Lucas and Kennedy actively don’t want it to happen.

It would have made perfect sense to have the BD boxset include the OUT if it was a matter of it being slightly more profitable to do so.

"Another example is how a few years ago Kino released a cut of the silent film Metropolis with restored footage not seen since the original release. "
I was involved with the Kino release, the restoration cost was bugger all and there were no royalties to be paid. Prints were borrowed from collectors, it was a simple, quick money grab that only had to move a few units to be profitable, and not a single person out there that didn’t want it to happen. Again totally different situation to the OUT.

Companies suck, for Disney to care about something, it has to be worth many, many millions for them to bother. If an SE 4K release would make $300 million or $305 million by taking the risk of packing in an OUT, then they would never take the risk. $5 million return is pocket change, and a risk is always a risk. It will cost them millions to restore the OUT, even with having the scans in place, the sound restoration on SW for the SE cost $8 million alone.

I want it to happen, but can’t conceive of a universe where it will happen in the next ten years.

There are a ton of LFL people at Siggraph this year, I’ll be canvassing all of them, and already know quite a few, but I am pretty sure the answer will be the same as that from the ones I have already spoken to. Not a ‘maybe’ or a ‘no’ or a ‘no comment’ but a ‘huh?’

Was it even Ridley’s idea to include the various earlier cuts or was that Charles de Lauzirika’s doing?

We don’t know what Kennedy does/doesn’t want to do with the OOT. All we know is that she isn’t going to go changing George’s versions, which should’ve been a given anyway (again, why couldn’t that guy just have asked her what we all wanted to ask her???).

I’m convinced George would have eventually double-dipped on the blu-ray and included the original versions if the Disney deal hadn’t happened. He’d already stopped saying it was his “vision” and switched to “it’s too expensive right now” (translation: “Why include it on the first blu-ray when I can just sell it to you all over again?”).

As for the $300/305 million debate, consider the fact that by the time a 4k UHD release rolls around many people will still not have upgraded their hardware to 4k. They’ll need a good reason to buy these movies again on regular 1080p blu-ray since a 4k remaster won’t make much of a difference.

Including the OOT is that reason.

Also, consider how the initial blu-ray release was handled. You had to buy the I-VI set in order to get those three extra discs of bonus features, right? Well, who is to say they won’t do the exact same thing in 2020 … except this time those three extra discs will be the OOT?

Agreed on everything else, though. And yes, please ask as many “in-the-know” people as you can about the OT’s current status. We appreciate the effort!