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Fang Zei

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14-Oct-2006
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Post
#267879
Topic
The end of Star Wars?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/267879/action/topic#267879
Time
zombie, let me first express how much I sympathize regarding TFN. My handle over there is lawnmowerman603 and if you check my profile you'll notice I've racked up more than half as many posts in my first 4 months here as I did at TFN in the last 4 years!

In regards to the EU, I read pretty much all of the prequel era novels and with the exception of Shadows and Heir to the Empire I haven't read any other Star Wars novels before or since. Lately I've only been bothered to read the comics, with Dark Times and Legacy being the only ones I really care about. I haven't gotten around to reading the ROTS novelization or Dark Lord. One big thing I have noticed though, and I'll admit this is debatable, is that the EU authors even now seem to be more on our side. I can't tell you how thrilled I was to hear that Clone Wars material covered in the Thrawn Trilogy-books from way back in '91-was being directly addressed in the new Clone Wars EU.

"The Saga, George's Vision, etc." I don't think the EU authors really care about or even acknowledge that. To them, they're still back in '77 or whenever they first saw any of the movies and Star Wars still means to them now whatever it meant to them right after they first saw it. This is assuming of course that their first time seeing it was at least prior to '97 but I think that's a safe assumption to make. The only real problem, regardless of how cool they write and draw things, is that now they can't just pretend like the events of the actual prequels never happenned. It's this simple fact that gives rise to what a couple of my older friends were doing in their rewriting of the prequels, episode by episode. One of them is 28, his parents took him to see Empire when he was barely 1 and a half years old. The other one is in his late 30's, saw all three movies during their originals runs, and he told me stories about seeing ROTJ on the big screen and the whole audience throwing their hands up and cheering during the Millennium Falcon "Fighters, Coming In" POV shot because it actually felt like you were in the Millennium Falcon. Suffice it to say I'm jealous of them both. Anyway, my 28 year old friend told me about when he first saw TPM with some of his friends back in '99 and how incredibly dissapointed they all were. One big thing he pointed to was Darth Maul using a doublebladed lightsaber and how much that takes away from the signifigance of Exar Kun. He saw AOTC during some free time one day during the summer of '02 and actually uttered a verbal explitive, outraging some nearby theater patrons, upon seeing the Death Star plans show up towards the end. I didn't meet him until fall of '04 and all throughout spring of '05 he was calling me a "Warsy" despite my claim that such a term doesn't exist/doesn't even sound clever. He saw ROTS about a week or so after I did and his first comments to me were "Oh my God, Oh my God, it actually felt like Star Wars!" Several months later he'd refer to that comment as a false alarm and say he'd had more fun watching "The Aviator."

So, I think if I do go back to reading Star Wars novels I'll stick to stuff written before the prequels were made.

I know I keep coming back to the subject of why things went the way they did with the PT, but let me just say a few more things. While GL's desire to get back into the "director's chair" (if that's what he prefers to call it) was probably the big reason for not hiring directors, there's also a theory I have. The film industry and indeed the original fans of the OT have pretty much looked at it as the beginning, middle, and end of the story. I mean, even with the '04 dvds, they still had to give the box that "classic" design and call it "Star Wars Trilogy" despite the IV, V and VI along the other side. GL probably wouldn't have had much luck recruiting good directors because they themselves probably cared more about directing their own stuff and their own "vision" than they did about the possibility of getting to work on a Star Wars movie. The thought that there would be more of them, even if they were aware of the IV, V and VI numbering, probably just didn't cross their minds much. Sorry, I just don't buy GL's desire to get back in the director's chair as being the only reason for things going the way they did. I'm just theorizing of course, but I think it's good food for thought.

What was inevitable, I think, was GL at least being the one to write the PT's story. It's what he did on the OT and I don't see how it would'v been different for the PT. What could've gone differently was the screenplay and the direction, those really could've helped the prequels immensely, but the past is the past.

If it weren't for the SE, the prequels would be just prequels like they should be. But because Lucas now has to make the entire thing his own, we get "the saga." Even Star Trek, a franchise many here are comparing to the current state of Star Wars, never went any further than making the special effects better. Yes, we might still be just as pissed as we are now even if Lucas hadn't gone so far as to change the actual story of the OT, but I think this difference is crucial. You still have plenty of shots in the SE that are not visual effects shots. You have next to none in the PT. GL is really just a producer and an editor, he's not a director like he once was.

I wonder what will happen when GL's kids-or whomever-take over LFL. I feel almost snobbish saying that the people who watch the PT and the SE, of which there are quite a lot judging from how often I see the silver boxset lying around at people's places, aren't the real fans. It's not their fault, since GL pulled the worst double dip in history and like I just said, most people had already bought the silver box thinking the original versions were never getting released, as per GL's very words (and don't play that whole "well, he actually said it doesn't exist to him" game with me. It's mere semantics and you know it). And then I know people who are a little older who bought the '06 release out of love for the OOT. At least they have 4:3 television so it doesn't really matter, even though the picture quality is still total crap.

Here I go again, bringing it all back to the OOT. I still hold out just a little hope that GL/LFL will get off their asses and do something about all this, realize that the OOT isn't just some "historical document" that people would only want to watch out of nostalgia.
Post
#267519
Topic
Do you like the PT ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/267519/action/topic#267519
Time
Looking back on it all, I see this:

Star Wars '77 is a classic because the special effects aren't the whole frackin' movie. The same goes for the sequels but here's something I've noticed.

By all accounts, Lucas's only real involvement in Empire was writing the story and financing it. Ok, so then we get what's probably the greatest sequel of all time, but there's a price. Lucas realizes he doesn't just have some inexhaustable amount of money, so he cuts back on Return of the Jedi while also failing to make the best possible script. 16 years later he decides to sit down in the director's chair just so he can make the PT. Anyone think this might've been because he didn't feel like paying a director????
Post
#267165
Topic
Ep 3 death star !
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/267165/action/topic#267165
Time
On the audio commentaries, Lucas says stuff like "it takes ten years to get through the (original) trilogy" and "the hand anakin gets at the end of AOTC is the one cut off by Luke at the end of ROTJ." We already know/knew those things aren't true, so his comment on death star is just as suspect. The DS's backstory was complicated enough even before AOTC. The only part I know is Tarkin stealing the idea from Sienar and presenting it to Palps at some point, but then comes AOTC to show that the Geonosians (of all people) were developing it. First off, there has to be some sort of backstory to the geonosians and the death star plans. I mean, the two things just don't go together unless you really start to stretch them. Tarkin's presence at the end of ROTS acknowledges his part of the backstory once again, so this thing with the geos is kinda wierd even if you just go by the movies and ignore the EU.
Post
#267160
Topic
Do you like the PT ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/267160/action/topic#267160
Time
Coulda sworn this has been brought up in almost the exact same way rather recently, but here ya go:

I walked out of the theater at the end of TPM feeling blown away by the lightsaber battle. Lucas wasn't bullshitting on that "The Beginning" documentary when we was telling the vfx people about the lightsaber battle needing to be even more exciting than the podrace. Speaking of the podrace, I don't remember that being terribly exciting at all. It has been 7 and a half years, but I don't remember anything on tatooine really doing anything for me. Probably the redundancy of going back there when we'd already been there in not one but two movies of the original three, that's what was getting to me. I liked how the whole movie was basically centered around naboo, this new planet we've never seen before.

But it was the only new planet we saw.

Yes, it's neat to see Coruscant expanded from just that one shot at the end of ROTJ's SE, and to find out how it's name is actually pronounced, but let's not forget that we didn't even get hung up on mentioning the names of planets in ANH and Empire. It was part of the lived in feel of those movies. Notice I don't mention Jedi. Well, that's because the battle at the end of TPM felt like a retread of Jedi's battle, there was no way I could get that comparison out of my head. This time it was a big land battle and a small space battle instead of the other way around.

I'd already finished about a third of the novelization before I saw the movie itself on opening day and somehow the writing didn't seem as hokey when I reminded myself that I was reading the novelization. Seeing it up on screen was a bit different I'm afraid. I did at least get the feeling of really stepping back to a time 30 years earlier in that galaxy far, far away. Maybe that's just because of how....different everything was. Yes, I know in retrospect it really wasn't different in the right ways, but I digress.

Another thing that's always been in the back of my head about the entire PT is the problem of making these movies so long after the originals. Heck, ROTJ was a little past its time, but TPM was 22 years past its time. Even forgetting that, I'd been hearing about these prequels in one way or another since '94, and the fact is that they just didn't deliver. All the many things I've pondered on recently just didn't come to mind back in '99, so to remove myself and remember how I felt back then is a little complicated now. Like I've said before, I've understood the notion of Lucas seeing only SE and PT since the day the TPM trailer was released. But those SE's didn't have an effect in every single shot, so even the SE's are still quite different from the PT. I still looked at TPM as the first new star wars movie in 16 years, SE or no SE. I mean, I was 13, almost 14 at the time, and I'd grown up on the original versions, not the SE's. To some up how I felt leaving the theater, I wouldn't say I was dissapointed, just underwhelmed.

It's funny, I've been going through my Star Trek movie dvds and thinking about the stretch of time from Star Wars in '77 to TPM in '99. I grew up on both Star Wars and Star Trek, but Star Trek was pretty much it for me at least until the trailer for TPM was released in fall of '98. Star Trek had started to show signs of suckage by that point anyway, and I'm sort of happy to say that the last of the movies I saw on the big screen was First Contact on opening night. It was probably one of the most memorable moviegoing experiences of my middle school years. I mean, the whole audience applauded at the end! Anyway, another reason I bring up Trek is ILM. They worked on all the movies 1-8 except for 5 and 1 (but even 1 had John Dykstra so it earns some points). 6 was one of the first movies I ever saw in a theater, and I saw 7 and 8 on the big screen as well. Let us not also forget Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock, movies ILM contributed to in the years before and after ROTJ, respectively.

So ILM fed our appetite for space adventure movies in the years between the Star Wars trilogies. Lucas and Spielberg must've really needed ILM for Last Crusade. Either that or Paramount didn't want them for Star Trek V. In any event, and this is the point that I'm really getting at, how many times did we hear about how much money Lucas was saving on TPM's effects budget just because he owns ILM? Yea, they found the time to work on other big movie projects during the PT, but there is the feeling that a lot of their work went to waste on what were not the best Star Wars stories that could've been told. Lucas simply relied on them too much instead of finding an interesting way to tell his story the way the makers of the OT did. I mean, break down for me the percentage of shots in the OT involving effects and then do the same for the PT. Not much more needs to be said on this.

The other thing to be addressed is the matter of "kidifying" Star Wars, something that ROTJ was first accused of. On the audio commentary for ROTJ, around one of the last scenes at Jabba's Palace, Lucas says that people tend to take Star Wars too seriously when it's really just Space Opera. No one's really arguing that point, they were arguing that ROTJ is all kidified but Lucas dodges the question by throwing something irrelevant in as an answer. Well, I went into TPM without any blinders on, and it seemed fairly kidified to me. The meal conversation scene was just awful and still is. The podrace had some impressive "ooo, wow, look how real that looks" moments, but besides that it did nothing for me. The lightsaber battle was the only real drama of the film's end.

Jumping ahead to AOTC, well, I already knew just about everything that was going to happen when I saw it with my friends on opening day, but that should never stop you from enjoying a movie.

I laughed through some of the more "important" parts.

That didn't stop me from seeing it several times that summer. Hey, what can I say, it's Star Wars.

By the time ROTS rolled around, I think I had somewhat of an idea of what the Harry Potter fans must feel like when they see the movies having already read the books (I haven't read any of the HP books). By that point, the EU had become a whole lot better than the movies and it just felt like Lucas was adapting from it and not the other way around. If not that, it definitely didn't feel any better than the EU which in turn was no where near as good as the OOT.

And notice how there's this huge public interest in TPM and ROTS and much less in AOTC. TPM because it was the first in 16 years and ROTS because it might've been the last and, more importantly, it was the prequel to the original movie from '77. That's why I'm happy to say that my last big screen viewing of ROTS was at the Uptown, the only theater in D.C. to show Star Wars on May 25, 1977.
Post
#266524
Topic
Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266524/action/topic#266524
Time
Something I brought up in an earlier post is that it's hard to compare the trilogies objectively. Some people argue that the originals weren't all that good in the first place, so this hubbub about the PT being a collossal dissapointment really isn't a big deal. "Excalibur in outer space" is how one of my friend's friends described it, and that's an interesting description considering this talk about watching it 1-6. Anyway, the other argument is that Star Wars was just fine and dandy until the SE came along. The thing I find interesting is that some people look at the OOT as something you'd only want to enjoy for nostalgiac purposes, which throws this very interesting paradox out there I think. Not only do some people prefer the prequels over the originals (SE or not), they literally believe all this bullshit about the OOT being a "work in progress, half finished movie." It's almost as if they feel that insecure about stepping outside the 1-6 bubble and accepting the OOT as the way 4-6 should be, simply because the SE and the prequels exist.

Another problem is that some people actually grew up when the originals were first being released, and so 16 years go by before they see the prequels. For me, it was only 8 or 9 years at the most between seeing the originals for the first time and seeing TPM. I guess the only way to truly objectively compare everything is to do something like what this guy did, except instead of the SE and the PT it's the OOT and the PT, in either narrative order or original order, just as long as the viewer knows which was actually made first. This is what I mean when I say it's hard to compare everything objectively.

Whereas the originals felt like a mythological time period, the prequels just felt like 3 average movies. And, as we've emphasized already, each of the originals stand on their own whereas each of the prequels all feel the same as one another. Now, with the SE, Lucas has done his best to homogenize the entire thing and make it "Excalibur in outer space" indeed. An interesting irony I'd like to point out is that while Lucas back in the day wanted to evoke the theatrical serials in his episodic structuring of the "saga," today he's saying stuff like "we're moving into television and that's all we're going to focus on." In a hundred years, I wonder if anyone will even remember that these movies were made for the cinema and not for television. Ugh, the more I contribute to this "what might've been" discussion, the more I seriously wish it'd actually been that way.

Something I've thought ever since seeing ROTS is that the Vader suit seemed very tacked onto the end of the movie. It really is the case for them having just foregone it completely and left anakin as he's fallen into the pit, not seeing him again until ANH.

I don't really understand the case for people like Coppola or Spielberg having done the prequels. I by all means agree Lucas should not have directed them, I just think it should've been a modern day equivalent of people like Kershner and Marquand. And writers, that also would've helped.
Post
#266361
Topic
Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266361/action/topic#266361
Time
Here is the real problem I'm seeing, something that's been brought up in the last few posts.

People are disliking the originals because they think that the prequels are more the "real" story than the originals simply because they were released recently. The originals now have that cgi look of the prequels because of the SE's except it doesn't mesh well at all with those movies because they were made 20 years earlier, therefore people think of them as being inferior to the prequels which are basically bluescreen epics where everything can conveniently mesh together. This is partly me theorizing on how anyone could actually like the prequels over the originals, which is the real problem I'm seeing. Then again, I do get hopeful whenever I read people's lists of their favorite movies and I see things like "Star Wars before it started sucking," even though that's an equally bandwagon thing to say.
Post
#266276
Topic
OOT has 1 day left
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266276/action/topic#266276
Time
That advertisement still raises way too big of an eyebrow for me though. If the english translation actually reads "will generate profits," then LFL must really have something up its sleeve. I mean, there've already been two dvd releases that we know for sure have sold a whole lot of copies, proving that the vast majority of people don't know they're getting a shoddy transfer of the OOT. Hell, even several people on these boards have expressed that they don't care even though they do know they're getting a shoddy transfer. What could this new '07 boxset possibly have to make LFL so sure that they'll make money off of it?
Post
#266274
Topic
Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266274/action/topic#266274
Time
Originally posted by: see you auntie
Why did he direct all three prequels?

Because after the SE Lucas realised directing just got easier. SW was a pain in the ass, now with technology he could sit in a chair behind plasma screens with an AD yelling "Action" and "Cut" himself occasionally adding "Faster" and "More Intense". The rest he could do with computers.

An even simpler translation: Lucas realized he wouldn't have to direct at all. Didn't SW end up being so good because it was a pain in the ass? Wasn't the OT so good because he actually got other people to work on it? I guess these things just didn't cross his mind.

Originally posted by: see you auntie
In '95 he didn't know what he was talking about. Hell, in '00 he didn't know what he was talking about. He said Episode 2 was going to be a radical departure from SW, a love story, very personal and for lack of a better word "slow". One of his visual effects guys, not Coleman, his name escapes me right now even brought it up with Lucas saying *paraphrasing* I thought you said this movie was going to be a love story and you've got us doing all these CG battles on a scope never been done before, we're really going to have our work cut out for us now, thanks.


That was John Knole talking to Lucas. It was in an Episode II web doc, the last one I think, titled "Reel 6." And wow, if anything that middle part of the movie on naboo/kamino feels like the editor is fastforwarding, not slowing down. The script was bad enough, but Lucas could've at least hired an editor.

After Episode III was released, there was this idea that Episode III was the only neccesary prequel, and to a large extent I'd agree but in a slightly different way. Lucas said he was excited about seeing Coruscant and seeing the Old Republic. That's great, but no one wanted him to spend half the damn trilogy hangin around on coruscant when there's an entire galaxy out there. He's being the same lazy writer he's been since Return of the Jedi, but even that movie had more going for it than the prequels. If Episode III was the only good prequel, that means episodes I and II needed to be completely different. They keep going back to the same damn places in all three episodes and only in epIII do they bother going to a bunch of different places and even then it's still all revolving around coruscant, flitting back and forth from one end of the galaxy to the other wheareas the OT stayed entirely away from the core worlds.

A friend of a friend of mine was telling me how much he hates Boba Fett simply because when Empire was released he was nothing more than "bounty hunter #x with a name," there was nothing more to him than that and yet everyone loves him. So yes, there is evidence for Lucas having pandered to the fans in the prequels.

Originally posted by: CO
Episode III ending was made by Lucas to be watched as the last episode in the saga, not the third. He even admits in the commentary, "I didn't need to show all the exposition of where everyone goes for the next 20 years, and I almost took it out of the final cut, but I knew people wanted to see it."

He put the DeathStar, Luke/Leia being brought to their homes, and even the construction of Vader in the movie solely cause alot of SW fans who saw it in 2005 would have been pissed if it wasn't shown, but that goes against everything storytelling wise of 1-6. And there lies the problem with trying to make this backstory that should be watched after the OT into a linear story now, Lucas didn't even try to appease the new 1-6 fan, he tried to appease the 4-6,1-3 fan, yet also says at the end of ROTS commentary, "The movies are meant be watched 1-6, and only thought of as one big movie, not 6 individual movies as the 'tragedy of Darth Vader.' That is the problem SW fans face who have seen the OT first, and who see the PT first, its fucked up both ways now.


This makes absolutely no sense to me. Even Rick McCallum kept pushing the point of it being a six part movie. I think what you mean to say is that while Lucas and McCallum might've meant and indeed intended what they said, their horrible way of going about the PT resulted in this 2 minute sequence of death star/ alderaan/ tatooine.
Post
#266205
Topic
Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266205/action/topic#266205
Time
I'm taking an english class on the animated cartoon. My teacher has a great sense of humor. Some student was talking about how computer animation has become a part of special effects in big budget live action films recently, and in his frustration with what the teacher was asking him he simply blurted out "well have you seen any of the new Star Wars movies?!" and my teacher just laughed and said "oh no, I haven't seen a Star Wars movie since 1983." Brought a huge smile to my face.

Speaking of those '95 interviews, doesn't Lucas say that he's getting other people to direct the prequels? That's probably the biggest thing that's bothered me recently about this whole deal, what happenned during the next two years to make him change his mind. More and more I'm thinking it was the SE that caused it all. I'm thinking it must've convinced any potential director that he or she was better off working on something else besides "the star wars prequels."

And yea, it's hard to disagree with the "it was all about the money" assessment. Lucas had done nothing but produce for 22 years and then decided to sit right back down in the director's chair as if no time had passed and Star Wars was still freshly struck gold. The SE and the PT feel in many ways like mere homages to the actual OOT.

CO, in regards to the replay value of the OT, in many ways it has to do with how unique each individual movie is, how Star Wars is so different from Empire. In the 60 minutes interview from shortly before ROTS's release, Lucas's words were "I'm not scared at all (about the critics). They haven't liked any of them really." Oh, is that the truth? Although I will admit it's hard to compare the trilogies objectively.
Post
#266178
Topic
OOT has 1 day left
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266178/action/topic#266178
Time
Yea, I guess even two weeks into the year would still be too early but at least a rumor would be nice. Wasn't the very first rumor about the '04 dvd's in the form of an invoice long before any announcement was made? And didn't that invoice say they'd be sold individually? oooooo, crazy theory time! What if they were originally going to sell them individually, maybe even packaged with the OOT like the 9/12 release, but then they decided it'd be better to do a fourth bonus disc and sell it in a box and then save the OOT idea for later, thereby doubling their money?!

Ok, sorry, just had to speculate.

If they are indeed going to remaster the OOT, they're certainly doing a good job of keeping it under wraps. Then again, maybe they haven't even come to a decision on that and like I said, the year just started. For all I know, they're not planning on releasing it until December.
Post
#266096
Topic
OOT has 1 day left
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266096/action/topic#266096
Time
Some of the best movies ever made and they can't get the treatment they deserve.

2 weeks into the new year and we still have no word on the next home video release.

That idea someone on these boards had of buying a copy (of each, like we weren't going to collect all three...) and leaving it sealed in the plastic is starting to sound like a good one. If and when they announce the specs for the '07 release, I'll know whether or not we're getting a remastered OOT this year. If we are, the cases stay sealed and hopefully become collector's items years down the road. If we're not, the plastic comes off.

The local mom and pop's still has one of each with probably more copies back in the stock room as they only have enough space on the shelf for one copy of every dvd. I should probably ask and make sure they actually do since I don't have the money to pick them up right now.
Post
#265538
Topic
Anywhere to keep up on news, or gossip about the archival editions coming?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265538/action/topic#265538
Time
Originally posted by: generalfrevious
Easy. Because it wasn't a popular change for fans and so Lucas changed it back because he felt like it. Why he should not do this for the ghost scene in ROTJ and Han shooting first again, I dont know. The best solution would to have never tampered with the originals to begin with and keep the SE as a novelty.


Since all of the versions of all of the exorcist movies are all available in good quality, yes, it would have.
Post
#264555
Topic
10 years of the Special Editions
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264555/action/topic#264555
Time
A curious thing is how the OT is commonly thought of as being "by George Lucas" even though this is hardly the case. I don't know whether that misconception got any stronger with the release of the SE's. And yes, Empire really does have the least amount of actual changes made to it (aside from fx cleanups) and I wonder how much Kershner had to do with this, be it his original good directing of the movie in the first place or the fact that he was still alive in 1997. Star Wars '77 was arguably Lucas's own movie (he directed it). It's the only one that he was anywhere near justified in being able to alter. Jedi, on the other hand, would've been better left alone. Not only were the changes made to it on the whole quite bad, but the film's director was deceased by that point.
Post
#264550
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264550/action/topic#264550
Time
Another thought just came to mind. I'm assuming the 9/12 release was a fresh new pressing of the '04 discs, yes? The only "new" thing was the bonus OUT discs, yes? Lucas spent no money at all on this dvd production besides simply stamping out the discs, plastic cases and paper inserts. He did spend quite a bit, it would seem, on advertising. Perhaps he really just wanted to make some more money for 2006 that badly. The claim was that it was for people who didn't care which version they watched. If that's true then why is the original presented in inferior quality? 75,000 people can't be wrong. I'm glad that apparently many of you voted with your wallets. But sorry, I already have the '04 discs and I'm not paying $60 for non-anamorphic transfers of the originals. It's actually quite touching to know that people care about the originals enough to lay down money for it, even though it's bonus content to the '04 versions and it won't look good on widescreen displays.

I recall hearing that Lucas seemed quite annoyed in some interview (mtv I think) that many, many people don't like the SE and prefer the originals. My response to him would have been "Well, gee, you think people are going to like it when you screw around with a classic movie that they love?!" Now, I come back to my point about the 75,000 sigs. Let's face it, the 9/12 release is not what those sigs were asking for. Even LFL, at the end of the day, sold it as "the Star Wars films available individually for the first time." It was to get another buck out of us, the only difference is that he knew beyond a shadow of doubt that there was a huge demand for the original versions, and he dumped an age old transfer on us just so he wouldn't have to spend any money because he knew we'd buy it anyway. That's called extortion.

Nevertheless, if there are only 75,000 of us that want the remastered OOT that badly, perhaps Lucas really is saving it for the super expensive boxset so that he could make money off the 9/12 release and make even more from the comparitively handfull of people who will buy the expensive 30th anniversary set.

Anyone know how many actual copies the 9/12 releases have sold? Sorry to drag this on, but I really hope Lucas actually meant something by that "it'll all come out in the end" statement. If he doesn't get the picture in time for the next dvd release, he'll loose my money.
Post
#264481
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264481/action/topic#264481
Time
That's what I've found interesting ever since talk started of a 30th anniversary "saga" boxset. The OT will be shat upon that much more by being lumped into Lucas's chronological place for them after the prequels. Granted, this has already happenned to an extent with the '04 boxse which was designed more or less with the same packaging design as the prequels, but even then there was at least a classic design motif for the actual box, not to mention the docs and commentaries. That's what's so wierd about the '04 set and the SE in general. It's always had this strange feeling of honoring or looking back to the original films without actually presenting them, giving us the latest revision instead. I thought to myself the other day that if we actually do get our wish and the OOT is remastered, film professors and students alike will find the revision and preservation on Lucas and the fans' parts, respectively, to be a worthy and interesting subject to discuss.

In a perfect world, the prequels would still not be included in this '07 boxset and it would include only the remastered OOT in anamorphic video and 5.1 audio. What WB did with the Batman movies in their latest release I find interesting. The '89-'97 movies were given new transfers and made available for sale both individually and in a boxset. Batman Begins was not included and was sold seperately even though it was being released on dvd at about the same time. The Superman Boxsets are a whole nother story. There was the Christopher Reeve collection that had the four movies that were also available individually (ala the Batman boxset), and there was also the "Ultimate" boxset that had all of that plus Superman II: Donner Cut, Superman Returns and more. Even then, the Superman Ultimate set is a different story than what the '07 Star Wars set will probably turn out to be. Batman Begins was omitted from any larger collection because it's intented as a reboot whereas Superman Returns is a sequel and very much meant to be grouped with the other Superman movies and therefore included in the boxset along with the others. But ever since the thought of a "saga" boxset entered my mind I just couldn't see it in an non-wierd way. The "saga order" would be the only way to watch it, and I suppose by the time it's released Lucas won't care at all about the movies' original context and it'll simply be The Star Wars Saga (2007) and not The Phantom Menace ('99/'01), Attack of the Clones ('02), Revenge of the Sith ('05) etc.

An optimistic view is that the 9/12 release really was a "testing the waters" and Lucasfilm will have the remastered OOT all ready to go this year now that they know people want it. Maybe LFL really is that fucking clueless and needed dollar sign proof, but I find it hard to believe. They probably just want us to hate them that badly. What would be the respectable thing to do? Give the OOT Criterion-level treatment with extras related to those films and not the prequels or anything else. Any further speculation from me is pointless until some sort of ot,fficial announcement is made.
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#263899
Topic
10 years of the Special Editions
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263899/action/topic#263899
Time
The first time I got the news about anything at all related to the SE's was november of '96. The 22nd, I think. I'd just seen Star Trek: First Contact (it was opening night) while my mother and sister had seen Jingle All The Way. Now that's a night I'll never forget, mostly because the whole audience for ST: FC cheered when the movie ended, and this wasn't even a midnight screening! My, how times have changed. I met up with my mother and sister afterwards. One of the first things they told me was that they'd seen a trailer announcing something along the lines of "starting New Year's Day, the Star Wars films will be shown in theatres for a limited engagement." This completely took me by surprise, having heard nothing whatsoever pertaining to a re-release of the films. The only thing I'd read had been nearly 3 years earlier on the cover of the first issue of some science fiction magazine, proclaiming "3 years until the next Star Wars Trilogy" against some stock photo of the Millennium Falcon. Years later, this year to be precise, I would find out all about LFL's rearrangment of the SE/Episode I release schedule. I think she also mentioned the part about the altered fx, thx and "new surprises." At some point I saw a commercial for it on tv. I saw Star Wars the weekend it was released, Empire with my mother and Jedi on its release weekend. I'm almost certain that the SE trailer archived on the '04 bonus disc must be the trailer they saw. "President's Day Weekend," so my mom remembered wrongly.

Looking back on it all now, I did get a little too caught up in the trilogy's return to the big screen to step back and think of what was really happenning. Because I was young, only 11, and stupid, the thought that these were inferior to the original versions never really crossed my mind. I didn't really care either way about the changes, at least not immediately. One of my bigger regrets has been not picking up the '95 vhs set back then when there were still a few lying around in the stores. I've since collected all three, but the Empire tape is shot (see one of the poll threads for that story).

In '97, Star Wars went from being this classic movie trilogy to being something that needed to be brought back and capitalized on, complete with fast food tie-ins. Whatever happenned to the days when the scifi channel would show empire and jedi letterboxed during thanksgiving weekend? I don't remember if they did it during thanksgiving of '96 or not, since the SE was right around the corner, but in any event '97 was when Star Wars stopped feeling classic and started to feel painfully modernized. The trailer for Episode I in november of '98 was perhaps the last bit of real genuine excitement for many Star Wars fans, mainly due to that classic John Williams music. Still, even then it hit me. When I saw that revamped LFL logo at the head of the trailer, I realized what the SE had been for.
Post
#261068
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261068/action/topic#261068
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Those are my thoughts as well. There is a signifigant amount of people who want the OOT restored, yes, but as this September's sales numbers indicated, there are not that many people aware that they got gyped. It would make sense, if Lucas actually is going to restore it this time, to make us pay a lot of money for it.
Post
#261061
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261061/action/topic#261061
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Wow... earlier 80% of the models were deleted now "all of the optical effects have either been recomposited digitally or deleted altogether."


How does one contradict the other?

One is talking about shots that feature the models in any way. Many of the shots that were originally models are now entirely cg. That's where the 80% figure comes from and that wasn't even something I myself said. The latter statement that you quoted was said by me, and yes, if you look at THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE's shot by shot comparisons, you'll see that I am correct.
Post
#261055
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261055/action/topic#261055
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Maybe Lorne Peterson doesn't see digital enhancement as an insult to modelmakers.

Maybe he is mature enough to realize that it's just another tool to make movie magic with, and doesn't concern himself with this idea that some effects are insulting to other kinds of effects.


Read my above post.
Post
#261047
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261047/action/topic#261047
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Once again you find loopholes, Gomer and Randy. Not once did I say anything about the usage of models in the PT, so nice job trying to distract me. You are also making a very broad statement by saying Peterson's work is "still there." Some of it is still there, but not all of it. Had this been a book talking about optical effects, there's no way the person writing it would stand for something like this screening as all of the optical effects have either been recomposited digitally or deleted altogether. Randy, if you re-read my post you'll find that I am arguing for the versions that George had made and put out in theaters from the late 70's to the early 80's to be given the treatment they deserve. When I say "deserve," I mean for the sake of history and posterity. Yes, he is the creator of Star Wars but he is also the financier. Other people helped him to create the movies. I just don't understand why you feel the need to defend his ownership of it. It's not like we want to change it, we just want it as it was.....as it was for 14 whole years. Lucas's statement about us falling in love with a half-finished film is just plain insulting. If what he said is true, why do so many of us not like what Lucas did for the SE? And again, I was never arguing against his "vision." He can change it all he wants as long as he gives the original versions the same respect.

Originally posted by: JediRandy
Still sounds like you think this movie is yours… which you ineffectively veiled by describing the accusation as a “drastic oversimplification.” Nevertheless, this fact can’t help itself from rearing its ugly head throughout this entire post.

By removing GL from the position of artist to simply the “financier” of the movies you’ve “cleverly” taken ownership from him and placed it somewhere else… which around here could be Kurtz, Kirshner, Marquand, Bracket, etc…it’s an attempt to make yourself sound like a champion for everyone else who worked on the movies… (who have now apparently has been ripped of by GL with the creation of the SE) This championing has even seeped into the fans themselves, who by purchasing tickets and plastic shaped like R2-D2 now own a part of these movies as well.

Only on a Star Wars message board can the creator of the movies themselves be turned into the guy who signed the checks.


If you choose to read things into it, that's your choice. It may sound that way to you but that's not what I was trying to say.

Also, your choice of words makes it sound as if those people you mentioned only care about money. Did it occur to you that maybe they were upset over the changes made to films they themselves helped to create?
Post
#260999
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260999/action/topic#260999
Time
The topic of this thread becomes all the more interesting when you consider that ILM recently sold off their model division. What ever happenned to the George Lucas of the OT? The one who went out to change the industry and give other film makers a chance? The flipside of the coin is that Lucas always talks about how he just knew Star Wars was going to flop, but he was going to get his movies made. That's another huge root of the problem, to him it's all about him. There's just too much evidence here. The Empire Strikes Back had the least involvement from Lucas and yet it's considered every bit as good if not better than Star Wars, a film that's undeniably considered a classic. He took more control over Return of the Jedi, and while at least he got a director and put star wars to rest with the trilogy completed, it's clearly the beginning of so much hypocrisy in him. He complained that he didn't have enough money while he was directing Star Wars, and yet now that he's in the position of executive producer himself he's overly concerned with saving money. Whatever happenned to that energy he had on Star Wars and Empire? Tightly bookending the production of Jedi with Indiana Jones movies probably didn't help much, but again this is all about taking control of things. The real problem with that is, and this is a question I pose, can you go too far in the name of "having control over things?"

Some people have argued that our problem as O-OT fans is that we seek collective ownership of Star Wars, but this is a drastic oversimplification of the problem. We look at it as a work of art, an opinion obviously not shared by its financier who seems determined to make whatever changes he wants just so he can make things conveniently sync up with the movies he made from '97 to '05. This is not responsible film making, folks, not by any measure. What we seek to do is not to give ourselves "ownership" of the art that is the O-OT, it is to take away this "ownership" from the financier. If Lucas is making all of these changes 20 and then 27 years later, couldn't it be argued that Lucas obviously took no pride in his work just as easily as it could be argued that the changes are "good?" There's the shame factor, but I'm not even going into that since this is turning into a basher rant.

Dean Devlin, the producer of Independance Day, said in regards to visual effects that "it's not the tool, it's the craft." Lucas, by even thinking that alteration and deletion of the groundbreaking visual effects work in Star Wars was a good thing, seems to have forgotten that people fell in love with the craft, not the technology. Yes, the dykstraflex was an innovative and groundbreaking technology in '76, but the effects done for the SE are in no way groundbreaking. If Lucas is so proud of what he's done, why did he feel the need to alter the original films for "a whole new generation?" If Star Wars is the classic film that it is, why was Lucas so concerned with updating it? If he makes it a different movie (which even from a legal standpoint he did, just read the copyright info in the end credits), how can people also be experiencing it "again?"

"I fear that my children will not be able to experience the movies that I grew up with." Thanks George, we do also. Last time I checked, it was 2006, not 1996, and a good deal of people have widescreen displays. All movies that were shot in anything wider that 1.78:1 are expected, not hoped to be, but expected to be recieving an anamorphic video transfer. Even the worst movies recieve anamorphic video on dvd. Lucas, you've released the OOT on dvd, yes, but our reactions and indeed the changes made to the homepage should tell you it's clearly not what we were asking for at all. If I ever have a kid, and he or she needs to do nothing besides load a dvd into the tray, why should he or she have to do anything more than that just so the picture will properly fill up the screen and even then at only sub-par resolution? I sure hope that Lucas's own kids don't buy into this "the artist's work is never finished" crap, but a lot of things point to that being the case, unfortunately.

Peterson is good to be writing a book entirely about models, especially in this day and age of IL(M). It's just too bad that LFL sees this as an opportunity to screen the "classic movie that started it all with Peterson's models and is also part of George's vision." George can call that "respect" if he wishes, but he shouldn't deny everyone the actual accomplishment that the O-OT is. He can have things both ways as long as he follows through on the oh so simple request we've made, and he might as well go all out for 2007 and just make whatever changes he damn well pleases. I mean, jeez, it's his movie, right?
Post
#260930
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260930/action/topic#260930
Time
A person doesn't give up directing for 22 years only to come back to it. Lucas's decisions since the mid-90's have been foolish. He'd been coasting on the success of Star Wars, but realized he had to revamp it to keep it all profitable. It's not like he needed to do the SE, the man was in the billion dollar range by then. At least he's given vast amounts of his money to some noble causes, but the irony is killing me.