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Fang Zei

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14-Oct-2006
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11-Aug-2025
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2,786

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Post
#260822
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260822/action/topic#260822
Time
The prequels were one gigantic missed opportunity, plain and simple. Return of the Jedi was arguably the beginning of the end. Lucas started taking more control, he had no counter, but at least he got another director to make it. How could sitting in the director's chair after 22 years actually be a good thing? It was Star Wars, and I think at the end of the day Phantom Menace will hold a place in my memory for at least being that movie we'd been waiting sooooo long for, but didn't quite live up to the level of the original trilogy. Duel of the Fates showing up on the simpsons 7 years later shows just how well people remember it, but yes, it was the highest grossing prequel simply because it was the first and there is no denying that. TPM and ROTS are passable but it's that useless middle act that pulls everything down. When I saw AOTC with my friends on opening day, and granted I'd been spoiled to death on the story, we were laughing a lot because it was the only way to alleviate how bad it really was. My friend sitting next to me even quoted Anakin's "but the women...and the children too" a few seconds ahead of him saying it because it was that predictable. The action scenes were ok, but it was distracting beyond belief to hear Johnny Williams' music from TPM being blatantly re-used in the Geonosis arena. It really is hard to argue for Lucas's desire to see everything finished when he goes about it in a borderline irresponsible way. The Empire of Strikes Back went down in history as one of the greatest independant film productions because it was a collaboration, not some kind of auteurism from Lucas.

As for this argument that there are more photographic miniatures in the PT than in the OT, fine, I'm sure there could be but it's not the tool that matters, it's the craft. Maddox did have a good point, the effects cease to be special when they're used in every single shot of the fraggin' movie. Lucas has deleted some of Peterson's work from the OT while only keeping his stuff from the PT. Replacing opticals with cgi would be considered good if they didn't look like they were made 20 years after the shots that were left in.
Post
#260748
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260748/action/topic#260748
Time
What was stopping him from leaving the original versions exactly as they were and not changing a thing? What was stopping him from preserving the film history he so wanted to see preserved for his children? While he was at it, maybe he also could've made the prequels to fit the originals and not changed the originals to fit the prequels.

By all accounts, the visual effects of the original Star Wars Trilogy were astounding when they were seen on the big screen from 1977 to 1983, where even the slightest "error" has to hold up to the highest scrutiny. By my own account, they were astounding even on pan n' scan vhs in the early 90's. They look even better in their original aspect ratio, and they would look many, many times better if a new master of the original versions could be sourced from actual film elements and transferred to video at the highest quality dvd can offer.
Post
#260746
Topic
MTV Interview and New Favorite Movie
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260746/action/topic#260746
Time
At the end of the day, isn't ownership the only thing stopping these prints and negatives from seeing the light (if they still exist at all)?

I'm assuming that for any given movie, there is only one "camera negative" copy of it that could possibly exist. Anything else would have to have been made from the original negative. Therefore, the original negatives of the Star Wars films don't exist because of the changes made to them for the SE, as long as everyone has their stories straight.

That MTV interview quote from Lucas means a lot. He said it, it's out there and we can hold him to his word. Heh, now he'll see what we want. Yes, because this website didn't exist until he gave the go ahead....
Post
#260710
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260710/action/topic#260710
Time
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Now, granted, we don't have the OU of Close Encounters on dvd, but that's something I'm willing to let slide because while the original was released in '77, the special edition was a mere 3 years later and the newer effects don't exactly scream "3 years later"

So, it's ok to be revisionist if it's within a certain time frame? I call shenanigans on that!

At least a reasonable facsimile of Star Wars '77 was released on DVD in some format. CE3K'77 has never been released in any home video format ... and Spielberg is far worse the villain than Lucas for that (in my book).



.


One big difference is that Columbia Pictures pretty much forced the whole SE deal on Spielberg with CE3K. And remember, if Lucas had his way we probably wouldn't have gotten the OOT at all, even in the crappy non-anamorphic state it's in now. That was Jim Ward's idea, and I can't really say it was the best one given the way he went about it.

In regards to the EoD doc, it's a different kind of documentary than we see on the LOTR extended edition discs. I still haven't seen the new extended Kong dvd. EoD was very much intended as "the story you've never heard," or at least that's how they hyped it before the dvd release. Maybe that's one reason why Lucas doesn't personally point out the contributions of others, but on the other hand this is the GL of 2004 talking, the one whose grown detached, not the GL of '77-'83. It's the whole "little engine that could" philosophy behind EoD that makes it more of a historical retrospective than, let's say, the LOTR docs.

Post
#260687
Topic
What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260687/action/topic#260687
Time
I think Maul was always intended to be "Episode I's villain." Each movie's gotta have one. In the original it's vague, the empire as a whole but also Tarkin and Vader. In Empire it's Boba Fett and Jedi's got Jabba and the Emperor. AOTC had Jango and in Revenge you have Greivous. Maul was a cool character in concept but ultimately the only thing cool about him was his fighting skills.

A friend of mine expressed the same sentiment as you, get. He would've liked to see Maul in a continuing role beyond Episode I and was actually pissed when Obi-Wan killed him. I thought the storyline for Episode I was good in that it centered around the invasion of a planet, one that we've never seen before. It was dissapointing to find that Anakin was from the same frickin' planet as Luke (it was bad enough that we went back there in ROTJ), and while it was nice to see Coruscant, that too was a planet we'd already heard of and seen (in the ROTJ SE). And then what do they do? They go back to the same three planets again in Episode II! That's what frustrates me the most about that movie. Kamino and Geonosis were the only interesting parts. Luckily Episode III stayed the hell away from Tatooine and Naboo until the very end, and even then it was very brief. I think Lucas kept to his original plan for the PT but changed a whole bunch of things along the way. Intercutting a lightsaber duel with another lightsaber duel was a first for the saga, but again, too much coruscant. One defining thing about the OT was that the only location we saw in all three movies was the interior of the millenium falcon. In the PT it's like this entire galaxy far, far away is confined to the senate chamber and palpatine's office. What gives?

I remember hearing ideas for the movies, some of which I'm pretty sure were confirmed facts, that never ended up happening. Episode III in particular, Anakin was supposed to gradually collect pieces that would become his Vader armor. That didn't happen. "The duel" was supposed to go on for quite a while, and maybe it does, but the merits of intercutting it with the yoda/sidious duel is anyone's guess. Mustafar and Utapau were fun to see realized on film.
Post
#260676
Topic
Mark Hamill V/O on Star Wars Novel Advert
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260676/action/topic#260676
Time
I also saw this recently. I also remember seeing it on tv way back when and thinking a few things. Firstly, of course, is how cool it was that they got Mark Hamill to do voice over. Secondly was how odd it was seeing footage from the OT when I knew that the NJO would bring us a vastly different enemy with purely organic technology, etc. Thirdly was how they used the sith theme from ROTJ, when this was not going to be the sith they were facing in these books (but that music is still great and fits the epic tone of how the NJO was promised). And lastly, well, it was a tv commercial for a Star Wars novel! How often do you see those?! The only ones I can remember were for The Hutt Gambit and Rebel Dawn a year earlier.

Yea, I bought into the hype. The big heavy of the novel (I won't spoil it, just in case) actually made the Style section of The Washington Post. I got the hardback and finished it, read onslaught and then skipped ahead to balance point when it was printed in paperback. I just couldn't get into the story, and I figure that not having read any of the post-ROTJ EU (with the exception of Heir to the Empire) might've been the reason. Later on I heard about how the latter part of the NJO transpired, and it honestly sounded pretty cool. I read Rogue Planet as soon as it came out and I definitely caught a little reference to the Yuuzhan Vong, so when that planet ended up becoming an integral part of the NJO story it was neat to see the prequel and sequel eras connected. There's even more of that going on now in the Legacy of the Force series, from what I've heard, what with Boba Fett and Taun We showing up.

oh yea, was this commercial not aired until 2000? the book was published in October/November of '99.
Post
#260671
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260671/action/topic#260671
Time
What probably annoys me the most is that you don't see other classic movies getting altered when a sequel/prequel/whatever comes along 20 years later, and if they are, you don't see the original version getting the shaft. Even with the dvd of Star Trek: The Motion Picture they went through the trouble of including everything that was deleted in the process of "enhancing" the effects. The only other time I've heard of something like that was the Close Encounters laserdisk, and that was on these boards! Now, granted, we don't have the OU of Close Encounters on dvd, but that's something I'm willing to let slide because while the original was released in '77, the special edition was a mere 3 years later and the newer effects don't exactly scream "3 years later," whatever that would mean. I don't think there's anything from post-1980 in terms of effects in the director's cut dvd, although obviously the cut of the movie is different. Look at Star Wars, they put back the Biggs scene at the end. For all we know, that could've been in an earlier edit of the movie exactly as it is in the SE. Something tells me we wouldn't have had a problem with that scene back in there, although admittedly that scene would've made a lot more sense if they'd have put back the Tatooine scenes. A director's cut is one thing, but what Lucas has been doing can only be called revisionism and what's worst is that he's doing it to movies simply because they're legally his. Tell me just how his altering of Richard Marquand et al's movie is any different than the altering of the Three Stooges's movies that he so vehemently spoke out against. It's hypocrisy. Lucas paid for the movie, wrote the story, etc. That doesn't give him the right to change things, but all I keep hearing is the apologetic "he can, so he should."
Post
#260563
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260563/action/topic#260563
Time
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Even in 1983 there was still a guild hassle about opening credits? Geez, when did they stop with that? Other movies from that era also had no opening credits (Tron, 1941, even Godfather and West Side Story didn't either, and that was before) how did they handle it?

Something I've wondered myself, as this still happens today.

Originally posted by: zombie84
As for Marquand, his being british had nothing to do with guild trouble--theres plenty of american directors who aren't part of the DGA, for example Irvin Kershner. Kershner didn't want to do ROTJ anyway because he resented Lucas and Lucas never asked him because he resented Kirshner. Lucas was forced to use non-union directors because he chose to not comply with union rules by including head credits, which really is not an unreasonable demand from the union. Of course, they socked it to him with a ridiculous fine (i guess because they felt that Lucas had made so much money without proper credit sequence to the cast and crew who made it all possible--again, probably bad for the film but really not too unreasonable a dispute from the union's perspective, whose job is to protect its workers with things like proper credit).



True, and Lynch and Cronenberg passing on the project was probably due more to them wanting to try other things. I remember reading somewhere that Lynch didn't want to have to play in someone else's universe, or something like that.
Post
#260548
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260548/action/topic#260548
Time
Yea I remember now, on the Leonard Maltin interviews he says he might direct one of the prequels but will probably get other people to do the others. I would've been happier to see him out of the director's chair completely and make for a more aesthetically pleasing saga with only episode IV under his direction. Of course, the interview was a couple years before the SE's were released (although they are mentioned in the interview) and that was really the ditch Lucas dug for himself and the OT.

CO, now that you mention it, TPM was arguably the dirt he used to bury it.
Post
#260535
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260535/action/topic#260535
Time
According to Empire of Dreams, Lucas had no choice but to get a non-American director for Return of the Jedi due to his departure from the Director's Guild of America. They had excessively fined him for The Empire Strikes Back's absence of any opening credits, and because he didn't want Irvin Kershner paying those DGA fines himself, he covered for him. He knew it would only happen again if he got an American to make ROTJ, and was so impressed by "Eye of the Needle" that he asked Marquand to direct.

Now that I think about it, Lucas's departure from the DGA might have a lot to do with why he decided to direct the prequels himself.
Post
#260532
Topic
Has technology accelerated that much?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260532/action/topic#260532
Time
ok, so I've got a few random questions:

1. People keep saying that Lucas had all of the film copies of the originals recalled and destroyed. Did Lucas himself ever say that or is it merely speculation that turned into rumor?

2. For the YCM restoration, existing positive elements had to be used to replace pieces of neg that had been severely damaged beyond any hope of restoration. Just where did those positive elements come from and what exact form were they in (35mm? 70mm? etc)? Also, what form is the original negative in?

3. If certain bits and pieces of what we're seeing in the 2004 dvd are from a positive and not the original negative, what hope does this give us for possibly seeing an OOT release that is mastered from a positive?

While I'm at it, I'm going to throw in a quote from Kevin Burns at one of the press junkets for the 2004 dvd. Burns was responsible for the "Empire of Dreams: The Story of the Star Wars Trilogy" documentary. Anyway, here's the quote:

"just a brief mention at the end (of the documentary)...we certainly acknowledged the special editions and how George went back....you really see it was a series of compromises in making the first movie...things he saw in his head that he couldn't realize given the budget and limited amount of time....the special edition and the dvd comes closest because-again-the artist's work is never finished....as the technology runs apace, and GL has invented most of the technology that has been responsible for these SE's....the technology has come close to but still not matched his vision for what he wanted the planets and the spaceships and the battle scenes to look like...it was important for us to put audiences back in that theater seat in 1977....we did get papal dispensation to use footage from the pre-SE release...you see the opening title sequence as it looked in 1977....that was exciting for us because it does bring you back..."

and this is what I really wanted to highlight:

"I will say what was shocking-and this speaks to the whole issue of the restoration- those brief scenes that we used from the pre-SE, in our mind's eye they looked a lot better than they do when you go back and revisit them and you do see how the qualityof the print, the quality of the negative really doesn't hold up the way you think it might....so you kind of understand why things have been revised and digitally restored."

Has there been any speculation on where Burns was getting the footage from? Was it a print, a negative or something else entirely?

Since the doc itself is 16:9 enhanced, has anyone been able to figure out whether or not it's from the same master tapes used to make the GOUT?

Most importantly, do you think that when Burns says "quality" that he simply means the age of the special effects and not the actual quality of the print/negative itself? LFL's official statement was that they are in "bad condition." Is anyone willing to bet it's nothing that couldn't be restored with today's technology?
Post
#260522
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260522/action/topic#260522
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
He is only against people other than the creator's altering the 3 Stooges.

If they were around and wanted to colorize it themselves, he wouldn't have any problem with it.

Oh, you mean just like we're against Lucas for altering the originals just because he produced them and directed one of them? Your argument is null anyway, Gomer, and here's why. Whenever someone works on a movie in any capacity, they expect to be recognized for their work that ends up on screen. When Lucas in his infinite wisdom replaced Latpi Nek with Jedi Rocks, he also removed Annie Arbogast from the credits because her work had now been erased. In an even sloppier move, he deleted Clive Revill from The Empire Strikes Back and neglected to alter the end credits to reflect this. At least he had the sense to stamp "1997" and "2004" on the special edition and dvd releases, respectively. That way, people watching it in the future will know that it is not the original movies they are watching, but an alteration of the originals. This is why it's more important than ever that we get a truly archival release with both the original and altered versions both in good quality.

I really hope those rumors about Lucas altering the movies just so his ex-wife wouldn't get any more royalties aren't true, because if they are it means George really is the bad guy a lot of us have made him out to be.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
He’s speaking out against the movie COMPANY posthumously altering the 3 Stooges material… last I checked Luca$ isn’t dead (contrary to some fans wishes) and Fox isn’t inserting Jar Jar into the cantina scene.

COLOSSAL difference…if the 3 stooges were alive and wanted to reshoot a scene, I'm betting GL wouldn't give a shit....


That's the difference you can't seem to grasp.


The difference you can't seem to grasp is that, first of all, the three stooges would want their work to be remembered, oh I dunno, as it actually was when they made it and everyone saw it and fell in love with it!!!! They would be self-respecting and not stoop to the level that GL has. How is GL not posthumously altering, for example, Richard Marquand's work? Did he just sit down and make the entire trilogy all by himself? He is the COMPANY!
Post
#260508
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260508/action/topic#260508
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
So just because it was seen publically makes it "finished"? The second that movie played on a screen its done and no longer available to be worked on further? Bullshit. Your arguement is the same crap that people drop when they act like the movies are "theirs".

Furthermore, ESB and ROTJ (and the PT) are distributed by Fox.... Fox is paying for that and still give a solid date that they want/need the movie for distrobution... GL funding the making of the films means nothing to Fox. Fox is still putting money into the movies.


I'm not arguing this point at all. What I am saying is that Lucas, because 20th Century Fox signed off all rights to any possible sequels to him, chose to produce the sequels that he did with every intention of getting Fox to release them when it did. Nobody was holding a gun to Lucas's head saying that he even had to make any more movies in the first place. He could've done whatever he wanted for the rest of his career and no one would be able to make another Star Wars movie except with his blessing.

If he's going to speak out on a movie company altering a production by The Three Stooges just because that movie company owns the rights to it, he should practice what he preaches and stop being such a hypocrite.
Post
#260491
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260491/action/topic#260491
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
We owned whatever it was be bought. If we bought a ticket to a screening we saw a screening, if we buy it on DVD, we get to keep that DVD.


The only reason I even wanted the 2004 dvd was because of all the extra features and the digital restoration of the movies, not the content of the SE's themselves. Also, Lucas plainly stated that the original versions no longer exist. He lied.
Post
#260489
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260489/action/topic#260489
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Wrong... it's released because the studio says it to be released, not because it's "finished".... it's finished when the person who created it says it's finished... whenever that is, be it the next day or 30 years later.


First of all, your argument doesn't really apply to the Star Wars movies. Maybe the original film from 1977, but in that case Lucas was still the director and knew the special effects we see in the SE were not even remotely possible at the time. The motion control system developed by John Dykstra was revolutionary, and those extra six months the production was afforded to complete special effects with said motion control system turned into a small miracle. What does Lucas do? He treats it like it means nothing by replacing many of the shots with cgi, barely half-decent cgi for 1997, I might add.

As for the sequels, guess what? Lucas had complete control in every sense over those productions. No one said he "had" to release them in 1980 and 1983, respectively. Did he advertise those movies as "must see half-finished movies?" No, he simply claimed that the movies he knew everyone was dying to see during that time were merely half finished, it just didn't occur to him to tell anyone until 2004.

No self-respecting artist publicly exhibits their work for the first time and then comes back to it year's later claiming that it was "half-finished," and I mean no artist.

So please don't spew that hogwash about "the studio saying it was finished." If that were true than what would you call what millions of people saw back on May 21st, 1980?
Post
#260481
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260481/action/topic#260481
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So he owns it in any way you could imagine.


This is not that slippery of a slope to walk, Gomer. Lucas's legal ownership of the movies in no way entitles him to alter them and treat them the way he has. Once a movie is released, it is finished. If we're talking about scenes that were shot, finished in every way, even included in the original edit of the movie, but were not included in the theatrical release, that's still a much different situation than Lucas and the SE's and nowhere near as bad.

The special effects added for the SE do scream "20 years later" in regards to the original effects. You still don't seem to realize that, prove to me otherwise.

The way in which the original theatrical vesions have been treated are unjust to our culture. You still don't seem to get that either, prove to me otherwise.
Post
#260478
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260478/action/topic#260478
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Did you see Empire of Dreams?


Yes, so Lucas had to be on the set supervising things. This is a lot different than what you said about Marquand having little to do with the movie. Lucas even says on the audio commentary that he was very impressed by Marquand's directorial skills and that he had a very good time working with him.
Post
#260466
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260466/action/topic#260466
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Look, I like the jagoff prequels, but this is Original Trilogy.com I just want a copy of it that looks as good as Cannonball Run 2. For the love of fuck, Gomer, Randy, Internet Police, can you leave me alone? Please? I'm begging you.


Honestly, how long can you talk about aspect ratios and subtitles being in the wrong place? It's got to get old sometime, isn't a little back-and-forth a bit more interesting?


Point taken, Randy, but you can't tell me that the treatment the OOT is recieving is fair. As long as you're for a remastering of the OOT, something that did not happen for the 9/12 release, then you have a place here. I'd think the same would go for everyone else on these boards.
Post
#260455
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260455/action/topic#260455
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
When Lucas hires and pays for all the talent that "helped" him realize his vision, then it's his "work" to edit in any way he sees fit.

It's too bad Marquand isn't still around, but from most accounts he had very little to do with ROTJ.


It's his in a legal sense only, which is what I was saying. The work that everyone else did during pre-production, production and post-production is their's, not his. According to you, Marquand had little to do with ROTJ. Maybe Lucas should've thought of that before he blatantly gave him the director's credit when Lucas himself was producing the movie. Talk about re-negging on a decision...
Post
#260337
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260337/action/topic#260337
Time
At least when Spielberg first put close encounters on dvd he just said "this is it, I'm done." Warner Brothers has put the '91 director's cut of Blade Runner on dvd in good quality and are going to be doing the same for the theatrical version next year. Lucas, on the other hand, did nothing more than what the loyal preservationists have been doing for the past several years when he clearly could and should have done better. Instead, he's just going to keep illogically revising his own movies.
Post
#260332
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260332/action/topic#260332
Time
Yet another series of films got a nice archival treatment recently, the exorcist. All of the movies, all the versions presented in good quality. I hope Star Wars doesn't end up as the only great widescreen movie to recieve really sup-par treatment.

Zombie, I agree with you on the viewing of the saga. Either watch it I-VI or just IV-VI and nothing else.