EddieDean

Awesome, I look forward to seeing it!

Anakin Starkiller said:

Please update for V, now that it’s out. Also, you should change the period in the title to a question mark.

Done. And tweaked based on some feedback from smudger in the Fanedit forums. Once I’ve done my rewatch of smudger’s movies, I’ll also do a polish pass on this list. I’ll check the non-moviefied episodes for chronology and quality. Quality will be subjective but that can’t be helped.

I’ve had one for my colleagues for the last few years, I’ve refined it now with as much info as I can glean about the current plan for the movies, from all of Smudger’s previous comments on Fanedit forums and here. It aims to give as much info as possible - original order, chronological, arcs, quality, inclusion in Smudger’s movies and proposed movies, and a hybrid ordering for if you want to watch the movies alongside the episodes not included.

Image defaulting to hybrid order (what you were asking for above) here: https://imgur.com/a/kKpdar1

Or you can play around with the list via filters here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wUlU_myy1Jgn2S59_fvuddCGpjQw3KTmav79lr0KeyI/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: Smudger, I’d welcome your input if any of that’s inaccurate!

Great discussion here. I love the idea of the Reydream including the tree and the books with a little voice echo, though think active pushing from Force Ghosts is maybe a little much.

The idea of having Maz be the holder of the location of the Resistance base is great too.

I’d hold fire on the explanation of how Maz got the lightsaber though, at least until we’ve seen Ep9. It was last seen falling from Cloud City, and with Lando returning, there’s a fairly likely chance that gives the writers a neat Lando > Maz angle.

I just watched your latest version Hal and it’s absolutely magnificent. Subtle changes which overall just tighten up the movie fantastically. And I thought the entire Canto Bight plot was seamless and not jarring or too minimal in the slightest.

The Finn/Rose escape from Snoke’s ship is still a little problematic, with underwhelming Phasma and the cartoony BB8/AT-AT segment, but I can’t really see other options there.

Brilliant, brilliant work.

[Hyperventilates in aurebesh]

Looks like the larger arcs not yet covered are:

• Corruption/Academy on Mandalore, plus the other Death Watch episode (potentially good setup for Maul’s later takeover and the Mandalorian scenes in Rebels)
• Citadel Arc (definitely a vote here, the Tarkin story is fun, though this could probably be cut down to a lot less volume)
• Umbara arc (fan favourite but a bit bloated)
• Kadavo arc (not bad but not awful - least important of all of these I reckon)
• Onderon arc (Saw Gererra’s first appearance and early rebellion sparks)
• Clovis arc (fun scenes but mostly dull politics)

I think that’s everything not already covered by your series.

From (poor) memory:
Corruption was I think just Ahsoka
Citadel was Anakin and Obi-Wan
Umbara was clones, then Anakin later(?)
Kadavo was Anakin and Obi-Wan
Onderon was Anakin, Obi-Wan(?) and Ahsoka
Clovis was just Padme

I think you get most bang for your buck in terms of continuity with the whole saga with Citadel/Umbara(no Anakin) > Umbara (Anakin) > Onderon, peppered with as much decent Mando stuff as you can get in there. But that’s without taking into account quality, length of time, transitions, etc etc.

If it were just me, though this is probably unpopular opinion, I’d be happy to just have a ‘misc’/anthology episode for the sake of keeping as much content as possible rather than worry too much about structure.

Looks fantastic Smudger! When’s the full ep5 due to drop?

Do you have plans to dive into episode 6 now or will you take a break?

I’ll put an audition video together!

Darth Muffy said:

Anyone aware if the re-do of EpIV was released in the end no reply from PM can imagine Smudgers inbox is quite busy at the moment.

I PM’d Smudger for it but got no response. Seems like he’s been pulled away from the project for the time being.

Sorry, I meant to write “I don’t think that loving someone equates to whipped, so I don’t think your analysis really proposes a candidate for editing”, then I got carried away. You’re right, our discussion above has no place here.

I don’t think that loving someone equates to whipped. My reading from those scenes was that he had a deep platonic, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone who was his partner in crime, his partner in survival, and probably the only significant and non-exploitative relationship he’d ever had. We as an audience can sympathise with his desperation at wanting to get back to her to help her. That’s relatable to me, and doesn’t include a power imbalance (which ‘whipped’ would imply).

Then, we’re taken on his journey of tragedy as he sees what’s happened to her in his absence. At first he believes that she’s been merely exploited, but by the end of the film we realise that her survival instinct has forged her into something darker, who would sacrifice this positive and healthy relationship at the altar of power. It’s significant to Han that she was willing to sacrifice trust and support and human connection with Han for this - more so than if she were just throwing away a friendship.

I think that aligns perfectly with what we know of Han at the start of the OT. He’s burned out on love, doesn’t trust even deep connections or others’ trust in him, and while attracted to Leia is callous and harsh with his attraction. He’s built a wall of cockiness and swagger to protect him from a deeper connection, and when he returns at the end of ANH he’s not just returning to the rebellion but also returning to an adoptive family of mutual trust and support. Even as he’s dropped into carbonite he struggles to reciprocate Leia’s love - that’s more powerful knowing what mutual love has cost him before.

I like your first one, Poster2.jpg.

I’ve no idea what Phrosted means.

I’ve taken a crack at a spreadsheet to record issues and their resultant scene fixes, for those who think there’s value there. Here’s a screenshot with the first example. Feedback welcome.

https://imgur.com/Ex3AfHZ
https://imgur.com/F4TbsPj

Wow, this thread is moving fast. It’s already getting a little difficult to get a handle on.

I’d expected it to take a very top-down approach, which is what I’m used to at work, but it seems like this thread is naturally leading towards a bottom-up one, where individual issues are being raised and discussed and solutions around them are forming.

That’s not a criticism at all, either is valid and will yield good results, but top-down and bottom-up can’t really both work together, at least not in a loose environment like a forum. So let’s lean into bottom-up for a moment and think about how a bit of structure might help.

If we’re going to be generating issues for discussion, instead of trying to find a coherent shared approach for movies, let’s see how well we can fix those issues by editing individual scenes, as a few people already have to great effect. I’d propose building a library of edited scenes in order that we can settle on which components warrant inclusion at a later date. This way, we focus on practicality without needing to come to a consensus right now. And if we have edited scenes to hand, it takes the pressure off a single set of edits - editors can simply select the elements they prefer the most. And it also takes the main editing pressure off individuals, since snipping and reordering scenes is one of the easier editing tasks. We can also, with permission, take edited scenes from existing fanedits with consent, and avoid repeating work.

Let’s take the Dooku is a fallen Jedi example - some are unhappy with his red lightsaber, so want it rotoscoped. We’ll list that as an issue, then if a capable VFX editor can make that change we have the scene available for production.

Does this resonate? If we focus on individual scenes rather than high-level goals it allows for practicality to be chief while leaving room for personal preferences down the line.

AbramPT said:

Wow! This is all very exciting! And yet borderline terrifying. Let’s all try to remember that the colour of Mace Windu’s lightsaber, renaming Snoke “Plaguis”, and removing “Darth” from other Sith’s names aren’t continuity issues whatsoever. They are personal preferences, and the only way a group this size is going to come remotely close to a consensus will be if we stick to issues that specifically affect continuity. For example, the ST doesn’t really consist of any continuity issues at this point. Especially since 9 isn’t even out yet. While it sucks that the background of the Resistance and the First Order isn’t covered extensively in the films, their existence makes sense and doesn’t contradict anything other than people’s expectations.

I think this is a really good point - those things you list aren’t continuity issues. They may raise the odd question, but they are not ‘broken’. Let’s try to always keep that in mind, when judging changes.

Hal, if you’re able, do you mind highlighting the changes made between your 4.x and 5.1?

If you want to drop the list RogueLeader I’ll try to get it formatted into a spreadsheet where we can take them further.

Just a quick response to some of the more recent discussion, particularly Outbound Flight’s suggestions and RogueLeader’s responses:

• I don’t think the Death Star taking 19 years is an issue at all. Rogue One: “The Project has stalled.” It takes ages to build something the first time, then you can crank out duplicates or updated versions fairly easily.
• The Jedi do wear hermit robes. That’s fine. So do real world monks of all kinds! Plus, you’re wrestling with practicality here - if you want to change that, you’ve got a huge amount of VFX editing to do throughout.
• I didn’t think it was a problem that the First Order came up ‘from nowhere’ - the Empire had a huge infrastructure throughout the galaxy. That said, I do love the idea of fleeing Star Destroyers.
• I think we should keep our hands off the Sequels, at least until they’re done.

You’re all right that this thread could quickly get out of hand. I think we should focus on top level goals before we get into minutiae or even specifics. (BTW, in real life I’m a ‘Solution Designer’, my job is to run projects from beginning to end for customers, where we always outline goals first, long before getting into requirements, then design the solution based on the limitations of the product. And prior to that I was a data analyst, so I have infinite tolerance for spreadsheets and reams of data.)

With that in mind, shall we try to put objectives in priority order? From my perspective only, and open to others’ opinions, I’d put:

1. Individual movies should be as enjoyable as possible
2. Individual movies should be as internally consistent and clearly plotted as possible
3. The saga as a whole should be as internally consistent and clearly plotted as possible
4. The saga as a whole should respect the canon of the TV series as far as reasonable
5. The saga as a whole should be as enjoyable as possible

Justification and expansion on the above:

INDIVIDUAL MOVIES SHOULD BE AS ENJOYABLE AS POSSIBLE
First in the list, because no other change should make a movie less fun. Individual movies are highlighted here rather than the full saga, because again, each individual should be decent. This item also leaves room for the removal of non-fun elements, like the Droid Factory, and the changes we’ve seen in traditional edits. This also naturally implies that we should use the best existing sources available.

INDIVIDUAL MOVIES SHOULD BE AS INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND CLEARLY PLOTTED AS POSSIBLE
Because individual movies shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to adhere to the overall canon if it breaks that movie. Clear plotting is also highlighted, because of examples like mentioning Sifo Diyas, which doesn’t really add anything. Similarly, this leaves room for things like simplifying Palpatine’s plan with regard to the Trade Federation.

THE SAGA AS A WHOLE SHOULD BE AS INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND CLEARLY PLOTTED AS POSSIBLE
This is the meat of the project, but it comes after the individual movies’ quality because we shouldn’t damage a movie to fix the whole - we should seek fixes which at worst are neutral to an individual movie. This item puts fixing contradictions first, and also encompasses clear plotting, which leaves room for (reasonable) streamlining throughout. What this item also suggests, which other edits have done little of, is ADDING extra connective tissue. I already love the idea of fleeing Star Destroyers after ROTJ. I also think, under this item, that we should also at least consider musical/SFX consistency throughout.

THE SAGA AS A WHOLE SHOULD RESPECT THE CANON OF THE TV SERIES AS FAR AS REASONABLE
This comes after the (movie) saga’s internal consistency. I use ‘reasonable’ rather than ‘possible’ because here the limitation isn’t what we can achieve, but what consensus we reach. We shouldn’t bend over backwards to adhere to any TV series, but should try to avoid explicitly introducing contradictions. Implied by this item is also that degree of futureproofing that being broadly aligned with the existing canon brings.

THE SAGA AS A WHOLE SHOULD BE AS ENJOYABLE AS POSSIBLE
Only last because it should come naturally as a direct result of the above. Plus, this is Star Wars, it’s already an enjoyable saga or we wouldn’t be here.

One thing I don’t think we need to overthink is whether or not to include anthology movies. Mainly because Rogue One really doesn’t break anything, nor is Solo likely to, now that the Story Group has a good handle on things. I doubt this project will make any demands of either. As I suggested earlier, once we have our goals we should be able to rank existing edits or original versions against them, and we may likely find that we’re closer than we think. In the ideal world we don’t create new edits from scratch, we just tweak our best existing sources to make them CONPoV compliant.

I’m glad my thoughts were coherent and seem to have resonated. Jarbear and Rogue Leader, I think I agree with both of you. It feels like we’re leaning towards:

1. The movies only are our single source of canon, with changes around consistency/simplification/clarity/quality
2. The TV series are not, though we should try to avoid any major contradictions unless otherwise unavoidable. “Ohh, OK, Yoda discovered that Sifo Diyas was the Jedi who ordered the clones” - the TV series should be allowed to be optionally additive
3. Other media are not

I’ll put a base spreadsheet together (free time permitting) once we’ve locked in some of the main goals and initial items. An example row might look like:

• OBJ: Continuity > ITEM: Leia’s Mother > MEDIA: EpIII/EpVI > ISSUE: Explicit contradiction > NOTES: Dies in childbirth EpIII, remembered as child EpVI > CONSENSUS SOLUTION: Hal9000’s living mother footage to be included in EpIII
• OBJ: Simplification > ITEM: Clone Origin > MEDIA: EpII > ISSUE: Complicated, name dropped and not referenced again > NOTES: Sifo Diyas name used in Yoda arc (S05E09-14) of TCW > CONSENSUS SOLUTION: Remove references to Sifo Diyas in EpII, imply Dooku, leave TCW as optional additional info

And then, for each item, I’ll also compare them each with a grid of all movies and fanedits I can get my hands on, and see how the existing content lines up.

TK-422 said:

Any thought on removing the “Lifting rocks” line when Rey does lift rocks at the end of the film? It felt too on the nose, if the shot before transitioning to Luke and Kylo was just her facing the boulders, I think it would work a lot better.

I think this is one of a few instances of deliberate irony in the film. Luke tells Rey that the force isn’t about lifting rocks, but it’s how she saves the resistance in the end. Similarly Luke insists Rey’s wrong to expect him to pick up a lightsaber and face down the First Order, and then that’s exactly what he ends up doing. It’s fate’s jest.

Pre-Edit: You really should call this project ‘FROM A CONSISTENT POINT OF VIEW’.

I think this is a really noble goal and totally agree that it’s worth creating an area for discussing issues which span the saga, rather than those which are limited to individual films. I think this kind of thread is very useful for solving issues like Leia’s memories of her mother, or the kind of popular issues which Snooker has mentioned, such as only Vader being Darth.

I think you have a couple of major challenges:

• The more content you include, the more potential edits need to be made. And bear in mind, as the universe grows, more content is going to be important for more people, thus worthy of inclusion. Some people could take or leave Clone Wars, but it’s increasingly being respected as a major part of the canon. To give just one example, now that we know that it’s likely that Ahsoka (probably the most popular non-movie character) may appear in yet another TV show, people may want Clone Wars to be included in this. Do we then need to remove all instances of ‘Darth’ Tyrannus, all instances of Dooku being referred to as a former Jedi, do we need to rotoscope his lightsaber in all instances from the Clone Wars? (I’m not saying those are changes which need to be made, but those are all things which have been mentioned in prequel edits to solve that one particular issue some people have.) If we decide Y wings should be in their ‘naked’ OT design, what happens if they’re all over the live action series with their full prequel armour?
• So, you need to define the scope. Expansion beyond the Skywalker saga and era probably (but not definitely!) will have a lesser impact - Rian Johnson’s trilogy and the trilogy by the Game of Thrones team will probably not impact this era. BUT, this third animated show, and/or newly announced live action show, and/or additional Anthology movies, could reinforce elements of canon you may otherwise wish to excise. The Kenobi anthology might have him not shut up about ‘Darth’ Maul. The live action series or Han Solo movie might talk about ‘Darth’ Sidious and keep showing his ridiculous EpIII face.
• You’re also limited by certain sources. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure the majority of people will consider Adywan’s OT edits to be the ideal version of the OT, or at least the base template, due to its quality colour and fixes like the Wampa, the arm that gets cut off in the cantina, etc etc. But what if people really object to certain fixes he’s made? What if they really hate his Yoda lips? What if they have a problem with his new footage for the changed Endor moon battles? Even then, I’d assume people wouldn’t want to go back and use other existing OT sources, would they?
• How much handwaving do we allow? “From a certain point of view” Vader killed Anakin. “From a certain point of view” Leia remembers her mother. “From a certain point of view” Obi Wan never owned a Droid. “From a certain point of view” Yoda trained Obi Wan.

Now I’m not saying I have the answers here - I’m just putting the questions up for discussion. But for me, for what it’s worth, I’d argue as follows:

• To reduce the need to make ever-increasing changes, and to keep the project futureproof, the canon is largely the canon. Jar Jar exists, and talks in that horrible voice. Dooku was a former Jedi, and is now Darth Tyrannus. Luke and Leia are seen at the end of Ep3, and known to be Vader’s children. Yoda is seen throughout the prequels and Clone Wars as a Jedi. Other darkiside force users use Force Lightning. Prequel ships are high tech. Holograms are inconsistent quality, and sometimes colour and sometimes all blue. We can’t avoid this. The Saga is the Saga now - not just supplements to the gravity of the Original Trilogy.
• As for Scope, it should at least be movies and TV. You could argue only movies, and that’s fair enough. But increasingly the TV is more canon, and that’s likely to continue. You could argue to add non-adaptation books and comics too. But I think you get into an area of diminishing returns at that point. Personal example: I enjoy the Phasma comic well enough, but does that mean we need to keep the line about the trash compactor in EpVII too? I think that’s a step too far for something I find grating.
• Regarding sources, once we have identified our core objectives, we should identify the sources to use. And, perhaps, let those sources inform our objectives in terms of minimising work/adherence to our goals. I strongly think the Adywan OT should be our core OT - give or take any easily doable edits to them that we choose to add on top, like (for example only) adding the Imperial March to Vader’s Tantive entrance, or perhaps fixing Leia’s mother in EpVI rather than EpIII. Similarly, it looks very likely that Hal9000(+collaborators)'s edits to EpVII will be a viable template there.
• I think the issue of handwaving things as a “certain point of view” is what we really want to minimise, a core goal of this project. You should be able to watch without going ‘wait, her mum was dead last time I saw her, better check Wookieepedia’ or ‘I’m sure I’ve seen Obi Wan with loads of droids, plus he knew R2, better ask my nerdier friend’. Ultimately, we shouldn’t be providing answers to these awkward questions - we should be avoiding awkward questions in the first place.

Where individual edits have fixed individual movies and improved their quality, and trilogy edits have sought internal consistency and sometimes also extra consistency with the rest of the saga, generally the approach has been that you can replace any individual movie with any fanedit (or trilogy of fanedits) without a change.

But now, what we’re proposing here is a more radical approach, where all edits in this project are consistent with each other, rather than able to be individually popped out. To that end, once we’ve established this project’s principles, I propose we use some identifier where we can say ‘this edit is a part of the FROM A CONSISTENT POINT OF VIEW (or whatever) project’. CONPoV can then be the principles, rather than the edits. If you want to buy into the CONPoV idea then we can present an index of edits (and even original unedited versions) which comply with the project’s goals. Maybe we discover that the original ESB or Rogue One is already perfectly consistent. Maybe Adywan’s ANH already fixes that film’s consistency issues. Maybe we even give edits a CONPoV rating. Then we’ve identified the films which need further work, and direct our efforts. And it also allows for users to create their own alternative edits (if they want to) which are still CONPoV consistent. In fact, if that all sounds a bit much, I’d be more than happy to maintain a spreadsheet of the principles we settle on and the degree to which existing originals and edits adhere.

Maybe if we could get one of this site’s master CG artists to put a Red Plom Bloom on one of the Kaiju we could make it work.

(Respectful) thoughts on MalàStrana’s suggested list, for balance (no offense Malà, this is my opinion only ❤️)

• Cut Poe and Finn’s conversation after Finn says “Because it’s the right thing to do” [DigMod Edit]

I liked this. You need a pilot/I need a pilot is funny and telling. We know Finn’s a moral guy (he’s just defected), so I don’t think this cheapens him, but it shows (like later with Han) that he’s not quite sure how to position himself yet so he often shoots for heroic. I think that’s quite telling too - that’s what he thinks non-FO people value. It’s who he wants to be seen as, whether or not he is yet.

• Cut Finn’s “this is what we look like, some of us” lines [DigMod Edit]

Agree. A little wobbly.

• Cut Finn and Rey’s excessive teenage celebration after they make it to space [DigMod Edit]

No, this is delightful! They’re young, they’ve just done something really great together, they’re excited, they’re clumsy!

• Cut the “14 parsecs” dialogues

I like this, personally. Han is a legend, and with the Solo movie coming out soon too it’ll be nice to have the continuity. I don’t think this is an egregious easter egg.

• Cut the cameo of the sphere Luke used in Episode IV

This, however, I totally agree on. A bit too cheap/convenient, takes you out of it.

• Cut Poe’s bull’s eye shots to free Han-Chewie-Finn [DigMod Edit] (not sure I doable seamlessly)

Not sure what you mean by this. I don’t think I noticed any egregiously perfect shooting.

• Cut Poe’s references to his jacket when talking to Finn [DigMod Edit, but keep the “you completed my mission” part of the dialogue]

Like with Finn and Rey, I disagree. It’s a really cute moment which quickly establishes a relationship. Finn’s a good enough guy to offer it back; Poe’s a good enough guy to want to encourage Finn.

• Remove troopers walking away from Ren’s wrath after he discovers Rey is missing [DigMod Edit]

I thought this served a double purpose: First, it was one of the most genuinely funny moments in the film (without being a forced joke), and second, it shows that this is actually the kind of thing Ren’s prone to. It works, for me at least, that he’s brash and emotional like Anakin, and unstable too.

• Trim Leia’s lines about good old times with Han “there was good moments” “pretty good”

Not sure on this. I really like that Han and Leia had ups and downs (more downs) - it made their relationship feel tangible.

• Cut the “I’m in charge now !” part when Han and Finn encounter Phasma

Yep. Agree. Clumsy.

• Cut Finn’s Episode IV reference “Trash compactor”

Far too cheeky a reference. They wouldn’t be joking then.

• Cut Snoke’s lines about Ren who needs to finish his training

Indifferent here. On the one hand, we don’t see Ren finish his training in TLJ. On the other hand, Rian Johnson’s confirmed that it was intended that killing Rey was finishing his training. On the third hand (?) that’s not explicit at all, so you could just as easily get away with “Bring Ren to me”.

• Trim down the “puzzle map” scene so it get faster (it’s so obvious I don’t get why Poe needs to wait on BB8 request to give him/her the usb key)

Yeah, fair enough.

The issue of the reveal of Ren’s parentage is the only other one on your list I’m not personally sure of. It’s mentioned a lot around here but I don’t particularly see the value in delaying the reveal to a more dramatic moment (such as with Han and Ren on the gantry in the most extreme case). Is the intention to make it a bit of a one-two punch?

For me (and maybe only me) it worked fine as is. Learning he was Solo’s son early gave me more time in the cinema to mull over the tragedy of it all, as the plot drove towards their confrontation. Knowing he was a ‘failed’ Skywalker made him more compelling and tragic throughout the movie.

(I suppose, as an aside, one thing that the sequel trilogy does well IMO is paint Kylo as one of the main characters on a par with Rey, in contrast to Vader who was, in the originals, much more of a foil to Luke rather than originally a tragic character in himself - Vader’s revelation was Luke’s tragedy, whereas Ren’s is Ren’s. Similarly Vader’s revelation is a vital beat in Luke’s story, but Ren’s isn’t in Han’s, as Han already knows.)

Perhaps my argument here is that aiming to hide the revelation only serves to suprise the audience, but it doesn’t suprise any of the main characters, so it doesn’t add to their emotional arcs. And as revealing it to the audience later doesn’t carry additional emotional heft for our main heroes (because it’s not a suprise), we’re not taken on a different emotional journey by hearing it either here or there. And as I said earlier, when you do leave it as is you get the persistent discomfort and anticipation about their eventual confrontation.