DrDre

UnitéD2 said:

Is R2’s blue that strong in these shots ?

I might reduce the blue saturation in these shots somewhat, since it is pretty strong, but standing directly in the sun light, R2 is pretty blue. These are also the balanced shots. Adding the warmth and greenish hue of technicolor will reduce the blue in favour of reds, yellows, and greens.

Here’s an update with less blue:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

I’ve finished references for 20 shots of the “Meeting Ben” sequence that will be used for both the shot by shot regrade of 4k77 and the bluray:

I’ve finished references for 20 shots of the “Meeting Ben” sequence that will be used for both the shot by shot regrade of 4k77 and the bluray:

Nate D said:

Hi Dre, glad to see a new post here! So, these are shots you’re using to create your own color graded shots, or…? Just curious.

These will be the references for 4k77.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”

You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.

I’m absolutely fine with that. We all weigh different elements in a different way, which is why there’s no right and wrong in judging art.

Mrebo said:

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff. So whether ability comes from deliberate practice or just cuz, it doesn’t matter.

(I think that’s a weak excuse for undermining the rules of the Star Wars universe but fits the ‘you’re focusing on the wrong stuff’ argument.)

I would agree, if the development/mastery of these powers, and personal growth/decline weren’t so obviously linked in Lucas’ space saga, but they are. The ST has thrown out the baby with the bath water. It should come as no surprise that Rey is considered by many to be the most bland protagonist in the saga.

yotsuya said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

I totally agree with you. Jedi training isn’t about using the force. It is about training the mind. It is about taking a doubter and making them believe. It is about disipline. It is about following the Jedi code. Sure, they teach force skills along the way, probably a prescribed times. They teach a skill and then teach them how to use it responsibly before teaching the next. There is nothing in the PT or OT to indicate that any of these skills are hard. The dialog between Yoda and Luke during the X-wing scene explains it all. Luke can lift an X-wing if he believes he can. The dialog in the PT indicates that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda, even though Yoda is a master and 870 years older. Strength in the force is not dependent on the length of your training, but on your natural ability and your belief that you can do it.

No it isn’t. The creator of this universe and his films say otherwise:

You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years.

It’s one thing to accept a retcon of sorts, it’s another to just deny these concepts exist, and have consistently been applied in the films. Anakin had greater potential than Yoda, but in ROTS it becomes abundently clear potential isn’t everything. As Darth Sidious puts it “Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us”, as in become through training, except that he didn’t, because most of his body was destroyed, and replaced by machines, and he thus never got to live up to that potential. Then there’s Anakin’s own admission to Dooku, when he states, that his powers have doubled since the last time they met. How did they double you ask? Through Jedi training, study, and experience would be my answer. Then there’s the power of the dark side, that Anakin desires, and he states to Palpatine: “Is it possible to learn this power?”. Not from a Jedi is Palpatine’s answer. So, no people don’t figure out these things for themselves in the movies, and are mostly just thought how to use these powers responsibly, or irresponsibly.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

I like your interpretation, except for the fact, that if her desperation of being accepted, of finding a home is her driving force, and she has zero training and experience, she should be extremely vulnerable to manipulation, and temptation. Hence, for her character arc in the ST to work she had to accept Ben Solo’s proposal in my view, and take his hand. In stead RJ seems to waver, and after an extremely interesting dynamic, the best in the film in my view, where black and white become gray for a while, the two characters fall back to their traditional hero and villain roles, and the movie becomes far less interesting, as the Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith battle continues.

dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

• what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references, and dialogue in the films, that in my view heavily suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

So, in my view you are right when you say training has little to do with talent, but just like Muhammad Ali had many years of training before he could stand a chance of becoming a world champion, despite his obvious talent, so too must a talented Force user learn and train for many years before he or she can control the Force. To be talented, and to be good at it instantly without any training are two very different things imo.

Things maybe a bit quiet over here, but I’m honing my skills in the mean time. Here are some color reference shots that are in progress:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey’s progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force. TLJ in essence tells us, she has no history, or family, no reason to exist other than where the ST takes her. Hence my thesis, that her main driving force for being the hero is a lack of a history, and character. She’s literally waiting on Jakku for the universe to give her a reason to exist. The universe gives her Force powers, and she almost instantly becomes the perfect hero.

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

Chewielewis said:

I don’t see any conumdum here. I don’t accept the theory that Palpatine created Anakin, the idea that the force created Anakin in response to Palpatine makes a lot more sense. You could say the same thing about Rey, created by the force in response to Kylo/Snoke. the movie basically tells us this.

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

SilverWook said:

Maybe the Dark Side hasn’t figured out how to tempt Rey yet.

The dark side tried with a muscular torso in TLJ 😉.

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Yeah, that would be like revealing two already established seemingly unrelated characters are actually brother and sister! Who pulls that out in the third film and expects to get away with it? 😛

Hopefully JJ is smart enough to follow through on what he set up in TFA (and Rian expanded on) and doesn’t feel pressure from fans to shoehorn in some random bullshit “explanation” that won’t stack up against the rest of the story being told.

That’s the conundrum here though isn’t it. To a lot of fans Rey’s history with the Force already doesn’t stack up with the rest of the story being told, namely the first six films. The Force semi-randomly bestowing Force powers on anyone considered “worthy”, whatever that may mean, replaces the genetic lotery introduced by Lucas with a cosmic one, the net effect actually being worse overall imo, because aside from the fact, that you still have to be lucky enough to be born with the potential apparently, you now also just get the powers that go with that potential without earning them, or without going through what was once the inevitable temptation of the dark side. The latter is sadly reinforced by the way Ben Solo is presented in this trilogy thusfar, reducing him to little more than just a bad seed, a foil for Rey’s apparent innate goodness. Some may argue we didn’t know much about Vader’s motivations for falling to the dark side, but I would counter that with the observation, that in many ways Luke’s journey delibirately mirrors his father’s from TESB onwards, highlighting the similarity in their characters to reinforce the idea, that Luke runs the risk of following in his father’s footsteps. This thematic connection between the main protagonist, and antagonist enhances both their characters unlike the somewhat contrived idea of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”, which turns Rey into a slave of destiny, a sock puppet of the light side of the Force.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.

“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”

That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.

Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).

No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.

The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.

To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.

I know what the intention of the scene is, and I’m saying exactly what you say, I should say, namely that it is poorly executed. Because of this the scene may be confusing to some, as are the character’s motivations. Just because you and I understand RJ’s intentions doesn’t make it so for everyone else, nor does it imply it is reflected well in the film, or that other interpretations are not possible.

To be clear, I’m not saying you’re not saying that. I was speaking in broader terms.

The problem with the scene for me is, that it appears to be set up as another twist. The scene plays out like the heroic sacrifice trope only for Rose to suddenly appear to stop Finn, and give her save what we love speech. So, the entire preceeding scenes should apparently now be seen in this light, and Finn’s sacrifice thus was probably in vain, even though the movie didn’t show this very clearly early on in my view. I think the scene and Finn and Rose’s arc would have worked better, if Finn’s irrational hatred and behaviour had been set up early in the film. As it is now, a lot of people viewed Finn’s sacrifice for the rebel cause as meaningful, because he was continually running away from the FO in TFA, and didn’t want to get involved beyond helping his friend Rey in this one. Rose thus becomes an agent in taking the meaning out of this interpretation of events, and offers another resolution that subverts expectations, which was not to everyone’s liking.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.

“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”

That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.

Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).

No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie.

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really. Obviously you can turn the table and say I’m just doing the reverse. Difference is the intention of the scene is clearly the way I’m interpreting it. And you can’t just ignore that.

The problem being, and this kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier today, is that no one is criticizing this movie on its own terms, they’re making terms up. The more reasonable critique here would be “they didn’t make it clear enough in this scene that Finn wasn’t going to make it.” Instead people hyperbolize and act as if the alternate interpretation was the intented one, and criticize it on those terms. So the critique goes from the reasoned “clarity problems” to the downright outlandish “Rose is a terrible character because she doomed the Resistance and ruined Finn’s heroism,” which is a critique that (in my opinion) has little relevance to what’s actually going on with the mechanics of this story.

To clarify my own post here, I think NeverarGreat was making an argument on that more reasonable side.

I know what the intention of the scene is, and I’m saying exactly what you say, I should say, namely that it is poorly executed. Because of this the scene may be confusing to some, as are the character’s motivations. Just because you and I understand RJ’s intentions doesn’t make it so for everyone else, nor does it imply it is reflected well in the film, or that other interpretations are not possible.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.

“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”

That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon.

Dre, come on man. Do you like having the same argument over and over? Because I don’t, I really really don’t. I mean I guess I was asking for it here, but I was trying to demonstrate a separate and specific point (i.e. what NeverarGreat personally thought would clarify the scene for him is basically already there in slightly different wording).

No, because NeverarGreat used the words “nothing can stop it now”. This is not implied in the movie. In fact the movie sets up Finn as th expert knowing about the miniature Death Star tech. Finn obviously feels he has a chance of destroying the weapon. The movie depicts Finn as a man accepting his fate, not a guy just acting like a lunatic out of hatred for the FO, behaviour he never displayed before. It’s not me adding confusion to the intentions of the scene. It’s the movie. Some of the intended sentiments are there, but it has just been poorly executed in my view. The success of such a scene is all in how it is set up. You show Finn acting irrationally in the face of FO early in the film. You set up Poe as the person knowing about the technology, and you have him tell Finn his suicide mission is futile. Then you have Rose rescue Finn before he kills himself in vain.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order.

“The cannon is charged, it’s a suicide run! All craft, pull away!”
“Retreat, Finn! That’s an order.”
“Finn? It’s too late!”

That doesn’t imply a suicide run could not be successful. It might only imply Poe is not willing to sacrifice the few people they have left. Additionally unlike Poe Finn knows the technology, and obviously feels he has a chance of taking out the weapon. So, it’s just a case of the movie providing a poor setup imo.

Possessed said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

The problem of course is, that he didn’t really help Rey, and that she still succeeded despite this. She helped herself to some books, when she was fed up with him, after which Luke sort of rediscovered himself, and was able to create a diversion for the rebels. Ultimately though he wasn’t much of a mentor in this film, except to be an example of how not to be. Yoda told Luke how to be a better teacher, he got to stage an illusion, and then he died before he could pass on what he had learned.

This is Star Wars. Since when is dying a barrier to being a teacher and mentor?

Ehm, since ANH. Force Ghosts can provide guidance, but up until TLJ they couldn’t physically interact with their environment.

False. Obi Wan sat on a log in return of the jedi. 😛

Well, I for one feel that scene in ROTJ is one of the weakest in the OT. It includes a pretty contrived reveal, Leia being Luke’s sister, and has a Force ghost sitting on a log having a relaxed conversation with a living person. If things were that easy, why didn’t Obi-Wan train Luke between ANH, and TESB? Luke seemed genuinly surprised to see Obi-Wan on Hoth. It seems to me there are limitations to what extend Force ghost can interact with the real world. In TESB Obi-Wan states he cannot intervere should Luke decide to confront Vader. In TLJ Yoda can suddenly conjure up a storm cloud, and lightning, and he can hit Luke on the head with his cane. This makes Obi-Wan’s statement in TESB seem ridiculous. Why not summon lightning and blast Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, and Snoke into oblivion? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Force ghost for me are sort of like reflections of the original person. They fade in and out of reality, and in my view are only able to sustain this for short periods of time. They cannot intervere with reality, and are thus not able to summon lightning from the sky or touch a living person. If Luke trains Rey in episode IX, it will feel like a cheat to me. Not only is the mystery of Force ghosts ruined, but it essentially makes a Force ghost a living person with a fresh coat of reflective paint, and with the added bonus of being invincible.

Thanks everyone for your comments. While I think this version is closer to the theatrical colors than the original release of 4k77, there’s allways room for improvement. It’s quite difficult to find a nice balance of colors given the enormous variation in the color balance between shots, as is maintaining sufficient detail in bright and dark shots given the much wider color gamut of a theatrical print. I’m sure there are many shots, that look better in the original release and vice versa, but two versions of 4k77 to choose from is allways better than one, I would say. 😉