DrDre

I think it all boils down to how we engage with fans and people in general. It’s allways tempting to cross the line from respectful to disrespectful behaviour in order to “win” the debate, or to vent frustration. I’ve crossed that line a number of times myself, first with Frink, where I inadvertently insulted him and his family, because I wanted to “win” the discussion. Then there was the spat with oojason, where I vented my frustration by attacking his moderation of the forum. It’s just choosing the wrong path to address issues, that might also have been resolved in a respectful manner.

Let’s also not forget that respect goes both ways. If a person promotes diversity, and wants to empower women, that doesn’t automatically imply they hate men. At the same time if a person is conservative, and wants to preserve a certain subculture, that doesn’t automatically imply they hate women. Using the example of the “Mary-Sue” debate, respect imo means saying to someone who’s offended by that word: “Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you, I’ll try to phrase my arguments differently”. However, it also means saying to the user of the phrase: “Sorry, I should have realized you didn’t mean to offend, and I will not judge you for using that phrase in the future”. Respect does not mean “my way or the highway”. Too often the reaction in such debates is: “Screw the other side. I will use the phrase as often as I like, and throw it in an extra time to troll”, or “Screw the other side. I will not engage with anyone using that phrase, because I feel the phrase is bad, and so anyone using it is an *******.”

When I stated I wear my TLJ shirt proudly, I meant it, not because I love TLJ, but because I love Star Wars, and TLJ is a part of that. Just like with people I accept the “bad” with the good. It’s just so petty to mock others for liking things you don’t like, or vice versa. If someone feels the PT is better than the OT, good for them. If someone prefers the SE over the OOT that’s great too. Rather than to just focus on why you dislike a certain movie, lets not forget there are millions of kids out there who got their minds blown by TLJ, and became Star Wars fans because of it, just like the PT and the OT before it, and that’s awesome. I can’t help but believe, that at least part of the reason the OOT wasn’t restored by Lucas, is because of fan toxicity. Lucas of course also had his own reasons, but I think toxic behaviour following the release of the SE, and the PT strengthened his resolve in this regard. That’s why I still hope that one day Lucas will be able to see a fan restoration like Legacy, and say to himself, I never knew the original film could look this good, let’s get this out there. That would bring things full circle for me.

Jeez, what’s with people these days. It’s sad, that Aretha Franklin appears to be on her death bed, because her greatest hit seems particulary relevant today: R.E.S.P.E.C.T…

Edit: I own a TLJ t-shirt. My mother in law bought it for me, because she knows I’m a Star Wars fan, and I wear it proudly.

I will send another donation your way.

Anything happening on this front? 😃

fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

That’s fine, and I would be interested to know why you love it so much. I consider TLJ to be a mixed bag of some great ingredients, and plenty of undercooked ones. Overall it’s a visually stunning, somewhat bloated, but entertaining movie in my view when seen on its own terms, but the worst Star Wars movie to date for me on a number of levels. However, I do think we’ve not seen enough positive critical analysis of TLJ in this thread.

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

https://medium.com/@timothymably/the-last-jedi-is-poor-storytelling-d22e45427278

In the second link the writer gives his thoughts on how TLJ could have been improved, largely hinging on the idea, that Rey’s parents were among those that betrayed Luke along with Ben Solo, and Luke was forced to kill her parents in the ensuing fight. The writer cleverly provides Rey with strong motivations for joining the dark side to avenge her parents, whilst also providing a backstory for Snoke, that ultimately sheds a light on Luke’s Jedi teachings, that in his version of events rejected much of the Jedi dogma in favour of building on Luke’s own experiences redeeming his father (going so far as to hide the ancient Jedi texts from his students), which was then used by Snoke to tempt the young Jedi students with false promises of learning the true Jedi faith. It is actually a pretty good read, and to me highlights several of the story issues, and the lack of proper character motivations, that imo plague TLJ:

https://medium.com/@timothymably/reimagining-the-last-jedi-luke-killed-reys-parents-2ec7f32aa729

The above frames approach what I would consider the look of the perfect print.

Yes, as far as I can tell 4k77 has more cropping than the bluray. I think this was also the case for theatrical projections.

The next batch of reference frames is finished. Here are all three sets:

The next batch of frames is finished. Here are all three sets:

towne32 said:

Darth Lucas said:

DrDre said:

Here’s a subset of finished reference shots from the Death Star Conference room sequence:

THANK YOU for not making this scene overly blue. I feel like I’ve been saying for years a naturalistic approach is the best way to go.

Yeah, it’s still plenty blue compared to the boring grey of many home releases. Doesn’t need to be o era the top to look great.

The funny thing is, that if you look carefully at the technicolor frames for this scene the walls blue color seem to stem mostly from the blue lighting, not that the walls themselves are a deep blue.

TV’s Frink said:

Press release.

https://pressreleasejet.com/news/remake-the-last-jedi.html

Beyond pathetic.

JEDIT: $410m “pledged” lol.
remakethelastjedi.com

They forgot to add the “I pledge a gazillion dollars” option. Had they done this, they could have remade TLJ in time for Christmas.

Here’s a subset of finished reference shots from the Death Star Conference room sequence:

Here’s a subset of finished reference shots from the Death Star Conference room sequence:

Here’s the final version:

That’s a running theme in the ST, mixed signals, and confusing messages. The FO get their home base blown up, yet it doesn’t stop them from walking all over the NR and the Resistance in a matter of days. They reign according to the opening crawl, yet they apparently do not yet control the all the major systems. The rebels are reduced to a few people on board a space cruiser, yet they have everything they need, and are the spark that will light the fire yada yada. Luke went looking for the first Jedi Temple, seemingly leaving a map to his location, yet he only went there to die, and doesn’t want to be found. Rey is a novice, and not a Jedi, yet she has most if not all of a Jedi’s powers, and is continually referred to as Kylo Ren’s equal in the light, Kylo who by Snoke’s own admission has completed his training, and is now the big bad after taking his master’s place. All the elements of the OT are deliberately repurposed, but they are mixed up, and executed in a shoddy manner imo by taking narrative short cuts, compressing time scales, and by putting the cart before the horse.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Luke would have been dead at the hands of the Emperor, if not for Vader. I guess someone should revoke his Jedi membership card. Rey is the catalyst for Ben’s actions, even if he makes the wrong decision in the end. The sequence plays out just like ROTJ, except for Rey rejecting Kylo rather than Palpatine, and they have a confrontation involving a lightsaber, where neither comes out on top, showing she is Kylo’s equal in the light, as Snoke claimed she was. Kylo Ren who according to Snoke was about to complete his training becoming the anti-Jedi (Sith cough). If she is his equal in the light according to RJ, then what would that logically make her? That’s right, a Jedi.

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy to many for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus has the right to call himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of being a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

To expand on this, while being a Jedi is obviously more than having Force powers, up till the ST the two were intimately linked. Mastering these skills was the hallmark of a Jedi. Why? Because these skills were only attainable through a level of seriousness, commitment, detachment, and control that comes with being a Jedi. As such, being able to go toe to toe with experienced Force users implied being anything but a novice. The ST now effectively tries to sell the idea, that Rey whilst having all these amazing skills, which were up to the ST typical of a fully trained Jedi, and not seeming inferior to Ben Solo (who she already defeated once in an unfair fight, but still) in their fight against Snoke’s elite guard, is still a novice. It’s trying to sell the idea, that someone who consistently hits the bulls eye is not a good darts player, because there’s more to being a darts player than hitting the bullseye. Yet, history tells us, that being able to hit the bullseye is the hallmark of a good darts player, and Rey has an impressive record when it comes to hitting bullseyes.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills, and clearly has an unprecedented level of control. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again? I’m sure she could learn a whole lot more, but then again so did Luke at the end of ROTJ.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.

Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.

Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this “my opinion is more objective than yours” attitude.

Regardless of the rest of it, Lucas most definitely either talks nonsense, or lies, or both, when discussing his creation.

I agree he is not the most consistent person in the world, and he too has been known to retroactively claim certain ideas where there from the beginning, however the idea that you have to study and train to be a Jedi has been in the movies since TESB. The PT introduced Jedi Temple’s where people study for over a decade before they could call themselves a Jedi Knight. So, if someone then claims there’s clear evidence in Lucas’ films, that you can just pick up these skills on the fly, I find that a very unlikely interpretation of events. I might have said it is objectively wrong, but then I don’t deal in fact, only opinion.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.

Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.

Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this attitude, which boils down to my opinion objectively better than yours.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon them. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow, when his life depended on it. It is that hard, even if the Force is stromg in your family. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for months if not years, whilst also being trained by the best, Master Yoda. Rey picked up all these advanced Jedi skills in days, in days, despite the fact that Luke refused to help her. There’s just no comparison.