DrDre

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, I think the wording of the TLJ crawl (and the TFA crawl) could have been done a little differently to clarify the situation better.

I like to think that even though the FO is only a fraction of the size of the old empire (and looks like putting a lot of their money into projects, like SKB and the Supremacy, and upgrading old Empire tech rather than just being at the same unit size of the Galactic Empire), they’re extremely organized and have planned for this moment for years.

With the New Republic, I picture it as if the attack on Pearl Harbor was more successful.

The whole issue with the New Republic was that they didn’t want to create a large standing army like the Galactic Republic had at the outbreak of the Clone Wars, because they felt it gave the centralized government so much authority that it allowed the Republic to become a totalitarian regime in the first place. They understandably feared that happening again, and thought their biggest threat was long gone.

The New Republic did have their own defense force, but nowhere near the scale of the Clone Wars era Republic or the Empire. The New Republic was set up to rely more on the defense forces of the different planetary systems within their government, rather than have its own huge military.

And although they did take out a significant portion of the New Republic fleet, the most important thing was that they also destroyed their leadership.
So while all of combined defense forces of the different Republic worlds might be larger than the FO, they are disorganized and now more worried about defending their own worlds against this military junta that’s united and prepared. It’s a divide and conquer strategy.

That’s why Leia and Luke are such a threat to them. The idea of the Jedi could reunite the galaxy, and Leia knows that.

So I kind of wish that was more of the wording of the opening crawl, not that all of the ships in the entire Republic were destroyed, but the destruction of the Senate basically divided whatever forces were left into disarray.

So to me, I think the elements are there, but them being afraid of delving into politics really hurt the clarification of the situation. And I think proper opening crawls, a deletion of a line or two, and maybe the addition of one or two deleted scenes of Leia could’ve helped address some questions people had.

And from what I understand, actually making Luke the McGuffin of TFA wasn’t JJ’s idea.

I get what you’re saying Collipso, but in that moment Leia has lost all hope, which make Luke coming back to reignite that hope makes it so powerful.

Good post! I think providing a bit more context would have really helped to connect past and present events, whilst also highlighting some of the differences between this conflict and the previous one.

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

I disagree. Both the New Republic and the FO suffered a major setback, but it only seems to have affected the good guys, and the FO reigns the galaxy from the moment TLJ begins, as stated in the crawl. The fight in TFA was uneven, because the New Republic wouldn’t openly oppose the FO. In TLJ the fight is uneven, because the rebels are the only ones left standing, and the galaxy is about to be overrun.

If you’re saying TLJ had the ability to move in a different direction, I don’t disagree. But the direction it went it was completely valid and in keeping with what TFA established.

First of all, you’re taking “the First Order reigns” too literally to mean that they literally control the whole galaxy, when the meaning here is that they’ve simply become the most preeminent force in the galaxy. The New Republic’s leadership has been shattered, which has left the rest of it in complete disarray (which is why the FO has been so easily taking over, as stated in the film). The Resistance/rebels aren’t the only ones left standing, in fact it is stated that Leia has allies that have the strength and power to stand up and oppose the FO’s conquest alongside her, if only they could believe that it is a fight they can win. So we went from uneven fight because the New Republic won’t publicly oppose, to uneven fight because the New Republic’s head’s been cut off, with FO swooping in to pick up the pieces and the rest being to afraid to help fight back.

I’m taking the statement in the crawl literally, because there’s very little in the movie to suggest otherwise. Throughout TLJ the FO seems firmly in control. You might argue TLJ’s direction is valid, and I would agree to an extend, but I would also argue it further diminishes the outcome of ROTJ by making it seem the New Republic is so inept, that it is wiped out in an instant, conveniently parking its entire fleet near Hosian Prime, such that the galaxy can return to an Empire vs rebels type conflict for real.

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Considering that SKB apparently was also their home world I don’t necessarily agree. I would have argued after TFA, that they put most of their resources into turning their homeworld into a super weapon. The FO seemed more like the rebels in TESB to me, forced to hide on an ice cube in the unknown regions.

There’s nothing in the film to suggest that the SKB is their home world, nor that all of their resources were contained on that planet.

As for hiding on an ice cube, this

looks quite a bit different than this

It looks different for sure, but the entire base to me looks like something from a James Bond movie, the secret base of a terrorist organisation like Spectre. The fact that the FO resides on an inhabitable ice cube strongly suggests they were forced to build up their military strength in secret.

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

I disagree. Both the New Republic and the FO suffered a major setback, but it only seems to have affected the good guys, and the FO reigns the galaxy from the moment TLJ begins, as stated in the crawl. The fight in TFA was uneven, because the New Republic wouldn’t openly oppose the FO. In TLJ the fight is uneven, because the rebels are the only ones left standing, and the galaxy is about to be overrun.

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Considering that SKB apparently was also their home world I don’t necessarily agree. I would have argued after TFA, that they put most of their resources into turning their homeworld into a super weapon. The FO seemed more like the rebels in TESB to me, forced to hide on an ice cube in the unknown regions.

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

As much as I disagree with your assessment, I do think there’s a kernel of truth somewhere in there. I would argue that the reason TLJ was so divisive is only partially because of TLJ itself, I think a significant amount of the hate comes from people who like TFA conditionally, who saw it and thought “well I don’t know, I guess it was fun but let’s see where this goes.” Since TFA was just the start it was easy to put aside the elements they didn’t care for and try to imagine things would be more to their liking next time. When TLJ doubled down on that track, and with 2/3 of the ST in existence, it makes sense that we’re now seeing some pent up frustrations with the overall direction of the trilogy coming to the fore only now.

The truth is I think the large majority of what’s divisive about TLJ can be found in TFA as well. The only thing, in my mind, besides what I mentioned above that makes TLJ more divisive is that it is less easy breezy and fan servicey/conservative than TFA.

Which is to say nothing of the fact that, if this forum is any indication, TFA was not universally loved by fans. I personally thought the TFA debates would never end. Thankfully I know now that the TLJ debates will subside once IX is released.

Sounds reasonable to me.

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

the mcu is really fan service focused, while star wars is not.

just compare the last two huge MCU and SW installments: Infinity War and The Last Jedi. one is a fan service fest, the other is an indie director’s vision of the continuation of a story not really caring about what the fans think. i actually admire the latter attitude a lot more, even if i dislike TLJ and really enjoy Infinity War. but that IW was much better received by fans and general audience alike is an undisputable fact, so SW does probably have something to learn from the MCU in regards to audience reaction.

I don’t think IW was a fan service fest. The heroes lost, and 50% of them died. It featured a complex villain with moral ambiguity.

After 18 movies with next to zero deaths and very few complex villains, I’d say those were the two things most fans were clamoring for. I don’t want to go too far off topic, but I thought both of those elements were executed poorly and felt very fan servicey to me.

Which is fine of course, but unlike TLJ IW did not divide its fan base. I agree the MCU is too heavy on the fan service, but so is Star Wars, and most franchises these days.

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis. Their last movie bombed. The Resistance trailer has recieved a mostly negative response.

Collipso said:

the mcu is really fan service focused, while star wars is not.

just compare the last two huge MCU and SW installments: Infinity War and The Last Jedi. one is a fan service fest, the other is an indie director’s vision of the continuation of a story not really caring about what the fans think. i actually admire the latter attitude a lot more, even if i dislike TLJ and really enjoy Infinity War. but that IW was much better received by fans and general audience alike is an undisputable fact, so SW does probably have something to learn from the MCU in regards to audience reaction.

I don’t think IW was a fan service fest. The heroes lost, and 50% of them died. It featured a complex villain with moral ambiguity. I think the MCU moved beyond being just fan service a while ago. The last few entries have been extremely well recieved by fans and critics alike. It’s not high brow stuff, but let’s face it, neither is Star Wars.

It’s not just about disliking a movie anymore, it’s about being accused of sexism, racism, and toxicity. It’s about being ostracized for not liking a movie.

That stuff goes entirely both ways and has nothing to do with the films themselves.

I disagree. People will be people. It’s the movies themselves that are the catalysts for this sort of behaviour, as it was in the days of the SE and the PT. Neither Lucas nor the current creators had/have a good handle on the fanbase and their expectations. That worries me.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the past and current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what Disney was going for.

There are millions of reasons.

• The MCU has a back-history of mythology that they’re pulling from. With each new Star Wars film they reveal something new about the universe, and for some fans those things can contradict their understanding of the universe (whether justified or not).
• The MCU is a by nature a collection of divergent styles. No one cares if Guardians feels different than Captain America, because they’re used to it.
• When divisive things happen in the MCU (like say Iron Man 3), fans know that it will have basically zero impact on the rest of the movies.
• Because the film series is so recent, and has been made at such a steady clip, there has been extremely little room for the hardcore nerds to build up and speculate what the universe means to them and where they think things and characters should go, or what the backstory should look like. I would wager a significant reason why the PT and ST are so divisive is both trilogies have had decades worth of pent up hype and speculation. If Marvel stopped making movies in 2017 and waited until 2030 to release Infinity War, even if it was the exact same movie, I’d put money on a significant portion of the audience absolutely hating it.
• Ultimately, people are much more invested in Star Wars than the MCU.

Basically, with Star Wars, I legitimately think you’re asking for something impossible. There is no scenario where Disney made Star Wars movies that weren’t divisive. Even if they played things conservatively and middle of the road, like Marvel, there’s going to be people mad about (I mean look at Solo). You’re just frustrated because you ended up in the mad group for the ST. But look on the bright side, you liked the PT a lot. So take what you like and be happy about it. Don’t fret over the rest.

I actually didn’t like the PT a lot, but I appreciate it on a conceptual level. The PT movies range from passable to pretty good in my view, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of any of them.

The point is not whether I personally like or dislike the ST. The point is how the current movies and its creators have approached the existing canon and its fanbase. There will allways be detractors, but when a movie like TLJ is so divisive, and causes such an emotional response, I think there’s reason for concern.

People like to point to the extremists, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. There are huge numbers of reasonable fans who have qualms about the current state of the franchise, who feel they are between a rock and a hard place.

I don’t know what to tell you. They made a movie that they thought was a good continuation and expansion of the series and the canon. For a lot of people it was. I’m absolutely certain they were genuinely shocked by the extent of the reaction (obviously they knew some would hate it). I know I was. When I saw the movie for the first time and saw the audience’s reaction, I thought it was going to be a massive hit with the fanbase and go over a lot better than either TFA or the prequels (to me, it felt like TLJ was made for Star Wars fans first, while TFA felt like it was made for general audiences first, and the prequels for Lucas first - FYI I don’t think any of those are bad things). Little did I know how some others would react, and how extremely.

Just goes to show in my mind that we’ve gotten to a point with this series where people’s emotions are so charged, and in some ways so disparate, that it’s impossible to completely reconcile them all. In my mind the only thing close to a solution for Disney/LFL is to move entirely beyond the existing characters, so at least there will be one less factor that comes with a lot of emotional baggage for fans.

I’ll agree with you on that.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the past and current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what Disney was going for.

There are millions of reasons.

• The MCU has a back-history of mythology that they’re pulling from. With each new Star Wars film they reveal something new about the universe, and for some fans those things can contradict their understanding of the universe (whether justified or not).
• The MCU is a by nature a collection of divergent styles. No one cares if Guardians feels different than Captain America, because they’re used to it.
• When divisive things happen in the MCU (like say Iron Man 3), fans know that it will have basically zero impact on the rest of the movies.
• Because the film series is so recent, and has been made at such a steady clip, there has been extremely little room for the hardcore nerds to build up and speculate what the universe means to them and where they think things and characters should go, or what the backstory should look like. I would wager a significant reason why the PT and ST are so divisive is both trilogies have had decades worth of pent up hype and speculation. If Marvel stopped making movies in 2017 and waited until 2030 to release Infinity War, even if it was the exact same movie, I’d put money on a significant portion of the audience absolutely hating it.
• Ultimately, people are much more invested in Star Wars than the MCU.

Basically, with Star Wars, I legitimately think you’re asking for something impossible. There is no scenario where Disney made Star Wars movies that weren’t divisive. Even if they played things conservatively and middle of the road, like Marvel, there’s going to be people mad about (I mean look at Solo). You’re just frustrated because you ended up in the mad group for the ST. But look on the bright side, you liked the PT a lot. So take what you like and be happy about it. Don’t fret over the rest.

I actually didn’t like the PT a lot, but I appreciate it on a conceptual level. The PT movies range from passable to pretty good in my view, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of any of them.

The point is not whether I personally like or dislike the ST. The point is how the current movies and its creators have approached the existing canon and its fanbase. There will allways be detractors, but when a movie like TLJ is so divisive, and causes such an emotional response, I think there’s reason for concern.

People like to point to the extremists, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. There are huge numbers of reasonable fans who have qualms about the current state of the franchise, who feel they are between a rock and a hard place. It’s not just about disliking a movie anymore, it’s about being accused of sexism, racism, and toxicity. It’s about being ostracized for not liking a movie.

dahmage said:

Do people really care about the MCU that much though? As far as I can tell it is just a fun ride for the vast majority. :shrug:

I am sure it’s least 50% (probably 80%) of anything called fan anger is something for those fans to work out. Not something any director did to them.

Yes, the MCU has a large and devoted fanbase, including comic book fans who are devoted to seeing their favourite comic book characters done justice.

Star Wars is unique in the way it has brought out the worst in its fanbase, and I’m not just talking about the haters, and extremists.

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what they signed up for.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

The problem of this divisive approach is that it has resulted in two trilogies that have left a bad taste in a large subsection of the fanbase. It seems with each trilogy the fanbase is shattered further rather than united under one unifying vision that is satisfying to OT, PT, and ST fans alike, whilst bringing new fans into the fold. While I’m not a fan of the ST, I’m actually more concerned with LFM’s inability to create such a vision, and not to greatly piss off some significant portion of the fanbase. The disdain expressed by the different subsections of the fanbase towards each other seen in articles, on youtube, and in this thread, whether it be OT fans, PT fans, or ST fans is a testament to that failure.

Sure some people don’t like what was done so far in the new trilogy. But to say that these films are the problem and not the prequels seems more than a little odd. Even if you don’t enjoy them they at least try and fit the “SW Feel”. Disney is all about brand integrity after all. The PT instead is like a weird boring slog where everyone is playing a creepy monotone zombie in front of a bad green screen. The only thing those fit with tonally is the Luke/Leia Luke/Ben scenes from act three of ROTJ where George was clearly pulling the strings. The exact things every hates about ROTJ but magnified into a whole new trilogy.

I did not say that, as I clearly referred to both the PT and the ST. However, since the PT itself is over a decade old it’s water under the bridge, and I’m more concerned with what the current creators have done and can do to unite the fanbase. So far they’ve not been doing a very good job, as there appears to be more animosity within the fanbase than there ever was before.

BiggsFan44 said:

dahmage said:
you are the first person that I’ve heard of describing this as a ‘tonal clash’.

It’s a scene right out of a parody.
The laser that’s going to kill “what we love” fires in center frame right as they lean in for the kiss after Rose’s “saving what we love” speech.

I have never EVER seen a more utterly insane development in the SW community than people who think that the ST isn’t a fucking joke compared even to the PT, let alone the OT.

It’s like the people who bashed the PT for years just shut down when movies worse than the PT come out.
Maybe because they know that they’re the reason why these new movies are cinematic abortions.

I think you should realize, that with these kinds of flaming posts, you probably won’t be here for long. It’s perfectly fine to discuss in what way the ST, PT or any of the films " disrespect" canon, but be prepared to accept that others may have a different point of view. What’s good to you may be bad to someone else or vice versa.

BiggsFan44 said:

dahmage said:

BiggsFan44 said:

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

Since you brought it up, I’d say that “debacle” is a much more accurate description of the ST (so far) than the PT.
It doesn’t get more cringeworthy than than the unfortunate juxtaposition of Rose’s “saving what we love” speech with the laser blasting “what they love” in center frame as they lean in for the kiss.

And people thought “I don’t like sand” was bad. Yeesh.

Stop, my sides are hurting.

Do you honestly disagree?

Yes, he honestly has a different opinion from you. You might try to respect him for that fact, rather than act like a ****.

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

The problem of this divisive approach is that it has resulted in two trilogies that have left a bad taste in a large subsection of the fanbase. It seems with each trilogy the fanbase is shattered further rather than united under one unifying vision that is satisfying to OT, PT, and ST fans alike, whilst bringing new fans into the fold. While I’m not a fan of the ST, I’m actually more concerned with LFM’s inability to create such a vision, and not to greatly piss off some significant portion of the fanbase. The disdain expressed by the different subsections of the fanbase towards each other seen in articles, on youtube, and in this thread, whether it be OT fans, PT fans, or ST fans is a testament to that failure.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Here goes:

The Empire Strikes Back (9.5/10)
Star Wars (9/10)
Return Of The Jedi (8/10)
Revenge of the Sith (7/10)
Rogue One (7/10)
The Phantom Menace (6.5/10)
Attack of the Clones (6/10)
The Force Awakens (6/10)
The Last Jedi (5/10)

Oh yeah, really…

The Holiday Special not good enough to make it in the list, eh? 😉
 

LOL! I would classify the Holiday Special as a tv show, not a Star Wars film. 😉

Here goes:

The Empire Strikes Back (9.5/10)
Star Wars (9/10)
Return Of The Jedi (8/10)
Revenge of the Sith (7/10)
Rogue One (7/10)
The Phantom Menace (6.5/10)
Attack of the Clones (6/10)
The Force Awakens (6/10)
The Last Jedi (5/10)

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

Well to me it comes across as trickery, a cheat that gives the audience some thrills at the expense of building a real story that stands own its own. The movie essentially keeps telling you not to trust the story trajectory, because the author might yank the steering wheel at any moment, which in my view prevents immersion.

To quote Plinkett:

“The question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in a completely new direction?”

Once you take away the surprises and the thrills, TLJ exposes the current generation’s Star Wars is self-referential to a fault, and extremely limited in its scope. RJ took the OT’s setups, and believed you can invent a new joke by just adding a new punchline.