DrDre

Ronster said:

Gout Hue Shifting Correction Reveals the true look of the Gout. It’s actually a doddle to fix this film using the GOUT. This was Loaded in VLC Media PLayer > Tools > Effects and Filters > Image Adjust.

This Yielded Better results than Loading it in to an non linear editor for MPEG decoding issues. Possibly womble DVD editor is probably the best thing to use to fix this and export for reference (free 30 day trial)

Perhaps still a bit pink on Tarkin.

The amount of Shift Changed

I think this is a fairly conclusive experiment and I now feel like I can see what the film is supposed to look like. I think it looks really really nice like this and it’s so simple and easy to get it where it needs to be.

To me it’s perfect like this… So to create a reference from a hue shifted GOUT would be the way to go, this could then be easily color matched to say the Blu-Ray and fix that pile of crap.

This is the best solution I feel to what is happening and the confusion over what the film should look like. Some sequences have shots that require different amounts of Shift but eventually after going through it piece by piece you will get to a conclusive answer on the Normal film footage.

The Special Effects as I said requires different Handling.

The reason I suggest using Womble is because it will handle the MPEG without having to decipher it as when I put this in NLE the results were slightly different and not as good. You xould also just use VLC for snapshots Like I have done and Color match.

This won’t give good reference for absolutely everything but I reckon about 80% some parts require no shift at all like R2 and 3P0 on the sandcrawler for instance. It only needs to shift when you see red face and so on.

I would probably trust the brightness and levels of the JSC to get a slightly brighter and less dark but overall I think I have found a good soloution.

Go and see what it is meant to look like 😃 It looks lovely…

The Gout has unfaded Highlights and the Door flash should look like this, Although I think there is a bit of a question over the light on the right hand side of the door is either Blue or Purple? I think it is Blue and we have an issue there. Not sure about the deep Blue that suddenly appear either before the explosion. Also note Soldier with purple shirt. It is all obvious evidence of Hue Shifting and the whole lot is swinging about like a windsock in a hurricane here.

The color is right but just shifting Hues so it needs to be conformed so that it maintains the correct Hue or the same Hue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4sV3lqzKqQ

While most of these look good, I think you should avoid phrases like “the true look” of the GOUT or “the color is right” unless you use some sort of reliable reference to define what such a statement is worth. Any other method involves a great level of subjectivity and personal preference.

https://www.cnet.com/news/actually-half-of-the-last-jedi-haters-were-not-russian-trolls/

“Commentary: Numerous reports say The Last Jedi negativity was influenced by Russian bots and trolls, but the reality is far different.”

"Bay is “moderately disappointed in some of the major media brands” that ran articles without taking the time to get a little deeper. He understands that some of his findings were buried because they produce a less enticing lede than “Russian Troll Army invading the Star Wars galaxy.”

That’s just not what his research suggests.

“The suspected Russian trolls are so few that it is basically the normal amount of Russian trolls you would expect to be present in a high-profile online debate.”"

“Ultimately, it is ironic that in an era when fake news and misinformation are so rife, Bay’s study found widespread appeal via a media-driven narrative that was far, far away from the truth.”

DominicCobb said:

I don’t really see the issue with the study. It’s says ten percent of the negative tweets are troll/bots/bigots, which is only half of critical audience. So if anything the critics should be happy that’s it’s validating them… but no, of course this study is just saying “everybody” is racist/sexist. Sure. I don’t see the problem with Rian Johnson retweeting it either, I think he literally stated that it supports what he’s been saying that it’s only a small percentage that sends him stuff like that (this study is after all focused entirely on tweets directed at him).

Also, Collipso, potentially buying bots and actually buying off professional real life movie critics are such incredibly different things in so many ways that I can’t imagine why anyone would think one proves the other.

I also don’t have a problem with the study. I take issue with the conclusions that are drawn based on the select few who sent tweets to RJ, and the use this group as some accurate representation of the fandom in general. I take issue with his “political” category, which equates political affiliations (oddly restricted to right wing politics) with active political messaging and subversion, which is presented as some sort of proof, that the backlash isn’t real, mostly Trump supporters, bigots, and Russian bots.

oojason said:

MalàStrana said:

Ryan-SWI said:

DrDre said:

Hi guys - fancy seeing you in here? Hope you’re all well.

These bots, eh? Attempting to persistently post negative comments and manipulate & distort views on a film… who knew?

See you guys around - and take care 😃
 

LOL

MalàStrana said:

“An academic paper finds that half of criticism aimed at director Rian Johnson was politically motivated”

so I assume that people who like it aren’t political about the movie ? (this must be a joke, this paper is totally ridiculous)

(I’m highly disappointed that Rian Johnson retweets this kind of paper)

"Supporters of The Last Jedi have called these detractors out as being predominantly white males
with misogynistic views that did not care for the film’s attempts at improving representation of
women and ethnic/sexual minorities in the Star Wars franchise. "

God, what a horrible paper! You’re political (which to the writer in this paper seems to restrict itself to the definition: not a progressive), or a real fan. The entire paper screams bias, as it focusses solely on the negative response, and perceived political beliefs that may be correlated with the response of a subsection of the fan base, but completely ignores the idea, that such correlations may also exist among supporters of the film. This is important here, since the writer promotes the idea, that a fan who has a strong political affiliation essentially disqualifies him- or herself as a fan of the franchise with genuine opinions of the film. It also makes the unsupported ridiculous claim, that any tweet by a supporter of Trump, or a fan with a right wing political affiliation in general should be considered deliberate, organized political influence measures disguised as fan arguments. In other words this subsection of the fan base cannot make fan arguments, but are only able to make active political statements pushing a right wing agenda. It’s only through the filter of their political beliefs that these people are apparently able to function, and frame arguments. Therefore their opinions of the film should be seen solely through the lens of their political beliefs, which I suppose the author feels are abhorrent. Then there’s the elephant in the room that is completely ignored by the author, namely his rather bald unsupported assertion, that the tweets send to RJ are somehow representative of the opinions of the fandom as a whole. This is thinly veiled propaganda, not science.

screams in the void said:

^ yes , Well said .

Indeed!

poita said:

Goodbye Gary Kurtz, Without you this film would not have been the classic it has become.

Indeed!

benduwan said:

DrDre said:

Here’s another quick correction:

to pink

Yeah, it could use a little more work:

Turisu said:

The cantina is supposed to be a dark and dingy dive so the darker look definitely makes sense. Dre, I love your colours but your correction perhaps makes it look a little too bright and cheerful. 😃

I agree:

Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

I’m not at all speaking for Dominic, so he should correct me if I’m off. I think he’s noting that technology doesn’t drive the story in-universe. Luke has a speeder because that’s how you get around, vaporators are how you get water, droids are the labor pool, space ships are how you travel from planet to planet, etc.

I had that in my original response as well, before I trimmed it. Technology, far superior to ours, is the world in which they live. The story at its roots is; old man enlists the help of a farm boy to go rescue the princess and fight the bad guys.

That story can be told in just about any timeline or setting.

I don’t agree. The entire concept of the Old Republic with its spiritual guardians tapping into a long forgotten energy field created by all living things vs an Empire with its technology wiping out the life of an entire planet in an instant is at the heart of the movie. It is one of its main themes. The destruction of the Death Star is the victory of spirituality over technology. The climax of the movie sees Luke reject a piece of technology in favour of trusting his instincts, and using the Force.

Here’s another quick correction:

You_Too said:
Here’s those two shots from 4K77 compared to my corrections, to give an idea of what it could all look like if someone ever did a proper shot by shot correction. (Which would of course take a horrible amount of work. I still think the 4K77 looks amazing as it is!) I used the 1080p version for my corrections since it’s the only version I have, so if you see any compression artifacts it’s just because the source isn’t lossless. Whites and blacks were balanced while keeping the mid balance and altering the gamma curve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120762
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120764

I’m actually working on a shot by shot correction, where the aim is to approach the theatrical color grading but without the color casts and inconcistencies introduced by the technicolor printing process. Here’s another example of where I would put a preliminary color grading for the two cantina shots based on the references I have:

Skymaster:

Your corrections:

My corrections:

For comparison are those shots for the bluray:

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

Yeah, that looks nice! 😃

You_Too said:

DrDre said:
Actually, I think a lot of detail is missing in that shot, and it’s overall too bright, and too yellow in my view. If I had to wager a guess, I would go with something like this:

No detail missing in my version since I didn’t crush the whites or blacks. Your version is closer to what it looked like when it was shot, my correction examples are aimed on keeping the theatrical color timing. What I meant was that the SkyMaster edition isn’t keeping the mid balance of the Tech print thus creating a different color. I’ve often found that by leaving the midpoint alone and only adjusting white and black points and gamma curve, you can often get the “correct” theatrical look of each shot if you’d want to.

Anyway, I found lots of errors with the SkyMaster preview. It had crushed whites, it wasn’t a screenshot error. The DNR overall looks superior to the official DNR version, but it handles dark scenes badly. (The official DNR version looks great too of course, except for the automatic color balance in each shot but that’s my opinion since I love the theatrical look and I’m so much into colors) There are lots of artifacts in the dark scenes in the SkyMaster preview. Note that these are errors with the DNR filter, not criticizm from me! 😃 Pointing them out might help?
Some examples, SkyMaster with 4K77 on mouseover: (Couldn’t upload all in a single post for some reason)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120755 (the right guard’s glove)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120756 (the stuff flying off the table and highlights on the wall pipes)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120757 (Obi-wan’s saber hilt on the right side of the picture)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120758 (Details in Obi-wan’s face, reflections in his eyes, some weird thing on the right side of him)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120759 (The opening between the two people in the back on the right side)

I also think it looks kinda strange to basically use a blanket tint in the scene where they talk to Han. It removes almost all the color from the picture.
Here are a couple comparisons with SkyMaster vs my own color corrections. (Once again leaving the midpoint to keep the theatrical color and just balancing the rest)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120760
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120761
Notice how the blanket tint in SkyMaster removes most of the difference between the lip and skin color, the eye color and so on. Of course, this is my opinion and not trying to bash this version. If this is the look they want, it’s their choice. 😃

Here’s those two shots from 4K77 compared to my corrections, to give an idea of what it could all look like if someone ever did a proper shot by shot correction. (Which would of course take a horrible amount of work. I still think the 4K77 looks amazing as it is!) I used the 1080p version for my corrections since it’s the only version I have, so if you see any compression artifacts it’s just because the source isn’t lossless. Whites and blacks were balanced while keeping the mid balance and altering the gamma curve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120762
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120764

I’ve checked the technicolor print frames I have for this shot, and it’s really not this yellow. There’s a bit more than in mine, but not much:

The scan itself is not a very reliable color reference, and the colors of the raw scan are actually less yellow than my first attempt, which was based on my color corrections for reel 2, and are slightly more balanced than the technicolor print reference frames I have, that have somewhat of a green cast. So, I would say my first attempt at correcting the shot is pretty close to the theatrical color timing minus the technicolor green cast.

Ps. What I meant with missing detail, is that the gamma settings in your version seems to obscure a lot of detail in the sand giving the image an overexposed look in my view. I also feel there’s a tendency to overcompensate for the deficiencies of the bluray, resulting in an overly bright image:

yotsuya said:

This is where I have the color correction for the Blu-ray…

Looking good! Mine would look something like this:

I personally feel some of your corrections look a little washed out, as if colors are missing. I also think you might elaborate a bit on the concept of “the wrong hue”. You have used this phrase more often in the past, and it makes it seem like there’s some clear definition of what is the “right hue”. In principle there can be any number of hues, and not one of them is wrong or right. However, I would say in the type of correction I’m going for the most important considerations are the colors of the original photography, and whatever effects may have been added to get to the original color timing was as seen in cinemas.

You_Too said:

Williarob said:
In the meantime, there is a spin off project called “The Skywalker Edition” that uses 4K77 as a jumping off point and may be closer to what you had in mind:

I’m gonna watch the preview and see what it looks like. The screenshot has nice details but is slightly too green and the whites are crushed. But I suspect this is a case of conversion between 16-235 and 0-255 that has caused it. It’s also more cropped, but that’s understandable if it’s based on more sources.

If I do the same kind of fix to that shot from 4K77, (Balance the white point but keep the mid balance and alter the gamma a bit) it comes out like this:

Actually, I think a lot of detail is missing in that shot, and it’s overall too bright, and too yellow in my view. If I had to wager a guess, I would go with something like this:

MalàStrana said:

DrDre said:

Here goes:

The Empire Strikes Back (9.5/10)
Star Wars (9/10)
Return Of The Jedi (8/10)
Revenge of the Sith (7/10)
Rogue One (7/10)
The Phantom Menace (6.5/10)
Attack of the Clones (6/10)
The Force Awakens (6/10)
The Last Jedi (5/10)

Nice ranking ! It’s good to see that EpIII ranked as the best post-OT entry. It’s well deserved. It’s also very nice to see a OT.com member who actually likes (more or less) all of them.

Thanks! I have found enjoyment in all Star Wars movies. 😃 I actually forgot to put Solo in my ranking, which might seem like a sort of criticism of the movie itself. I enjoyed it overall, but it’s also the most forgettable movie for me thusfar.

NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

“Empire” and “Jedi” had nothing parodistic; their absurd earnestness and the bombastic banality of their direction (by Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, respectively) are a perfect match for the oppressive, hectoring John Williams scores that accompanied them. If there was nostalgic, faux-naïve whimsy in Lucas’s inaugural installment of “Star Wars,” it was gone from “Empire” and “Jedi,” replaced by a hegemonic bellow for devotion and belief.” - Brody

LOL

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

At this point I don’t think you should be surprised by anyone putting TLJ last (no pun intended).

Indeed, the latest poll for worst Star Wars movie on the TFN boards shows 30% of voters vote for TLJ. It is also the favourite Star Wars movie for 20% of the voters in the favourite Star Wars movie poll.

TFN. There’s an as-if random sampling scheme if I ever saw one, lol.

Well firstly, Jedi Council Forums is the largest Star Wars fan forum in existence. Secondly, the sample sizes in these polls is statistically large enough to support the thesis, that a significant proportion of fans will put TLJ either at the top or at the bottom of their rankings, confirming the by now well known and widely accepted view that TLJ is a divisive film, which was the point of my original post, made in response to Anakin Starkiller’s remark that people shouldn’t be surprised, that some of us put TLJ at the bottom of our rankings.

Anakin Starkiller said:

At this point I don’t think you should be surprised by anyone putting TLJ last (no pun intended).

Indeed, the latest poll for worst Star Wars movie on the TFN boards shows 30% of voters vote for TLJ. It is also the favourite Star Wars movie for 20% of the voters in the favourite Star Wars movie poll.

Collipso said:

i get what you’re saying but i don’t think it’s that much of a jump to go from a direct complement of the OT to an indirect one.

I’m not sure future canon should complement the OT at all. There are certain elements that make up the universe, but for once I would like to see a story completely divorced from the narrative trappings of the OT.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

it’s interesting because when i think of ‘Star Wars’ i think of the original, then of the star wars trilogy, and then of the complements of that story. what dom said above is something i think several of us think. the OT is Star Wars, as in that is Luke’s story, the main story. that’s what it was about. the PT is how the status quo of that story came to be and the ST is just a continuation. so in a way Star Wars actually ended in 1983 (or even 1977 to some) and the rest is complement. i don’t think it’s going to be hard to take the further step of focusing on different stories set in the same universe. i think it’s going to be something like what Fantastic Beasts was to Harry Potter.

In a way the entire franchise has been held hostage by the OT since 1983, and almost every piece of what is now considered canon is in the service of those films.

RogueLeader said:

DrDre said:

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

This is a really great question. I think content like Knights of the Old Republic was extremely popular, and it featured no Skywalker’s, so I definitely think the franchise can survive without them.

Just create an interesting world with relatable characters with just a hint of those familiar elements, like weird aliens, droids, the Force, etc. and I think the franchise could really evolve in interesting ways. Really Star Wars has to evolve beyond that to survive into the future.

Agreed!