DominicCobb

This is a great example of why it was so stupid for JJ and co. to try to appease the fans. The fans have already made up their minds. You can try to fight something like the “Mary Sue” label, but people will just reinterpret anything to make it fit their narrative. Might as well continue forward with the character as written rather than try to make those happy who will always find some way to complain.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.

And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.

I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”

I’m not making anything up, I’ve posted evidence to back up my arguments. I don’t think I’m warping the content of the films, but since no one is going to change their mind about this, I’m going to leave this thread before things get nasty.

I mean, just for example you said the training scene shows us Rey is a Mary Sue, which is a statement that doesn’t hold up to any sort of scrutiny whatsoever. I explained why, and you had no refutation except to say “well what about the other movies!” It’s one thing to hold up the movies as they are and say, “well I get that this is what they were trying to do, this worked for me but this didn’t, and I think that hurts the character” or whatever. That’s an intelligent conversation. But when you’re being willfully ignorant, like with the training scene, it hurts your argument. I don’t know how to respond other than being snarky, if you’re not going to argue on the level I don’t know how I can.

RogueLeader said:

It does seem like there was an issue where they felt they needed a primary, ultimate evil, antagonist, because they wanted to redeem Kylo and they felt that wouldn’t be possible if Kylo was that ultimate baddie.

In the OT you had the ultimate evil with the Emperor to contrast to Vader, and another example with Avatar: The Last Airbender, Ozai was the ultimate evil to contrast with Zuko. Both Vader and Zuko found redemption while the ultimate evil was defeated. It almost seems like a narrative rule. But I think it would’ve been compelling to keep Kylo as the ultimate evil, and ask the question, “Can the ultimate evil be saved?”

It’s a lack of imagination. Especially if you’re going to have Kylo be the one to redeem himself, of his own volition (which is what basically happened in this film anyway), you don’t need a bigger bad to face off against. He should be able to look in the mirror and realize for himself what he’s doing is wrong, not just what someone else is doing is wrong.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.

And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.

I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

I feel the same way. The prequels were my introduction to the franchise, and I feel like a lot of the good parts of those movies are being overlooked, but I also agree that they have a lot of bad parts.

I think the tide has officially turned. About ten years ago, you couldn’t find nearly anyone who’d admit to anything good at all about the prequels. Now it’s the opposite, where it seems like many people refuse to accept their poor qualities.

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

RUKUSBUILD3 said:

I disagree totally. TPM is definitely not as bad compared to Disney’s installment.

Every single Disney film is better (even the TROS shit storm).

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.

I disagree. I feel like Luke’s first appearance at Jabba’s palace shows very explicitly that Luke is being tempted by the dark side, and it helps set up his struggle in the throne room. The sail barge scene was a heroic moment, but Luke’s earlier actions are explicitly dark.

I mean I’m happy for you that it plays that way, but to me it never did. The fact that none of this is mentioned at all, especially in Luke’s discussions with Yoda and Ben really drive home how poorly it was handled for me. It’s essentially ambiguous, which doesn’t accomplish anything.

TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.

When do they show those moments? Whenever Rey in TROS does something dark, it’s because she lost control. She didn’t mean to blow up that transport, and she didn’t mean to stab Kylo in the chest. When Luke in ROTJ does something dark, he does it on purpose. He force choked those guards on purpose, and he almost killed his father on purpose. You need to show that the protagonist is consciously turning to the darkness before you show them rejecting the darkness, and I feel like that’s something ROTJ does very well.

I mean, first of all that’s just your interpretation that Luke is consciously turning to the darkness. For me, I see a movie where throughout the runtime Luke says he won’t kill Vader because he sees the good in him, and that he will not turn to the dark side. It’s only while facing Vader that he loses his cool and control. He’s not consciously turning to the dark, in fact he’s doing the exact opposite. The whole point of the scene is that he’s not trying to kill his father on purpose.

Rey fares better because we see multiple moments where she loses her cool and slips towards that dark power, which is a more believable path - like Luke, we already saw Rey reject the offer to join the dark side. We know that they both know consciously that the dark side is the bad side. But TROS and ROTJ are supposed to be about both protagonists slipping towards the dark despite their best intentions. In that regard, ROTJ does not fare as nearly as well.

I will give you this, Rey would have been better served if they had given her a black or near black outfit. But that hardly makes or breaks this.

I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.

TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.

StarkillerAG said:

She has family issues he always seemed okay with.

That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.

That’s funny. “Just a plot point.” It’s literally the primary motivator of just about everything she does. “Not a weakness”? Kylo Ren literally calls it her “greatest weakness.” They spelled it out and people still don’t get it.

OutboundFlight said:

It’s important to remember that Rey is part of the prophecy.

Darkness rises, and light to meet it.

This implies a nobody had to rise to counter Kylo, which is frankly ridiculous but if we are working the lenses of TLJ, Rey is both a “nobody” and a “chosen one”.

Through this lens, she is only the “chosen one” by nature of being the one to step up and be the light the galaxy needed. Anakin is the chosen one inherently, due to his conception and the prophecy. This aspect of Rey’s character is relatively minor, I mean, this is just one line. What’s more important the larger idea of darkness facing the light, rather than the Force picking a chosen one (the supposed implication here).

Anakin being a “nobody” from “nowhere” is secondary to his characterization. I mean, Luke was from nowhere too. But with Rey it’s different, because they made her nobody-ness the central part of her characterization, in the same way being the chosen one was for Anakin, and being Anakin/Vader’s son was for Luke. It was a decidedly different story.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.

Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!

I don’t think you should blame it on the fans. None of the fans who hated Rey Nobody like Rey Palpatine. They see it for what it is: a misguided attempt to please everyone that resulted in the sequel trilogy having no clear direction.

They’re the cause, whether they like how it ended up or not. JJ and Terrio bought into the argument that Rey’s character progression should treat her like a video game character, not a human being.

No one has ever said that Rey should be a video game character, that’s a complete straw-man. We just want Rey to have some sort of struggle before she begins using the Force like a Jedi master. Is that too much to ask?

I think it’s an accurate descriptor. The films already gave us a character struggling in a different way, but it wasn’t enough for some people because she reached too high a power level without spending enough time grinding for XP. It’s the same reason we have the pointless training sequence at the start of TROS.

They ruined her arc for the sake of fans, and so every fan who complained Rey was “OP” deserved the shitty explanation they got.

They may have thought it was for the sake of fans, but no one who hated Rey Nobody liked Rey Palpatine. It’s like asking someone to make a sandwich, them making a sandwich that looks like a sloppy, slimy mess, and them blaming you for wanting a sandwich.

It’s more like they made a sandwich that worked perfectly well without mayo, then the fans had it sent back because there wasn’t any mayo, then they ruined it by putting a shit ton of mayo on it.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.

Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!

I don’t think you should blame it on the fans. None of the fans who hated Rey Nobody like Rey Palpatine. They see it for what it is: a misguided attempt to please everyone that resulted in the sequel trilogy having no clear direction.

They’re the cause, whether they like how it ended up or not. JJ and Terrio bought into the argument that Rey’s character progression should treat her like a video game character, not a human being. They ruined her arc for the sake of fans, and so every fan who complained Rey was “OP” deserved the shitty explanation they got.

In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.

Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!

It kinda sucks, doesn’t it?

thedewback2 said:

Why was BB8 on the Star Destroyer at the end? Shouldn’t he have been on Poe’s X wing?

I think they wanted both BB-8 and R2 to be doing something, and BB-8 is more suited to the ground battle.

NeverarGreat said:

Rey would have been the first lead with no baggage with regard to lineage or prophecy, and that was so refreshing.

Not just that surface level characteristic either, they made the fact intergral to the thematic messaging of the trilogy and her character arc. Well, until TROS undid it.

Also, the trilogy already had a potential hero from Sith heritage.

Yes.

I really want to insert in the “I’ve been killed before” line from the beginning of the movie, but you need Rey to have a comeback line like “and you be killed again,” which is less easily accomplishable.

Well, Disney would prefer a show because 1) The Mandalorian was a huge success, 2) Disney+ needs more content to retain subscribers, and 3) Solo proved that not every SW film is going to be a theatrical success. I imagine the move from 6 episodes to 4 is so that, even with a delay, they’ll be able to finish sooner rather than later.

In an early ROTJ draft, images of the ghosts of Ben and Yoda flashed while blocking lightning from Luke. It’s an idea I’ve considered for this, and you could expand it to include quite a few different Jedi. But I don’t know if that might feel like beating a dead horse after the voices. And I think it’s important for Rey to have the final word.

snooker said:

I really like this, RogueLeader! And I really like implication that Obi-Wan is who Padme trusted!

It’s interesting because that was actually the intention of the scene (we’re just missing the scene that would overtly imply this, where Padme meets with Obi-wan). I like the rearrangement, it definitely seems to establish that rift with Padme early on.

And I also really like the reordered Mustafar talk, though the video game lines nag at me, as does the continuity of where Padme’s standing in her last line.

Well technically based off the further information we’ve gotten about Trevorrow’s version, Ben did get redeemed (though at the very end), so I kinda doubt that was the sticking point we might have suspected, unless they just generally didn’t like what they did with the character (which, fair).

I kind of doubt Carrie’s passing was the only reason he was booted. Still a lot to the story we don’t know I think.