DominicCobb

yotsuya said:

I want to read every draft of every one of the films. Not possible with what is currently out there.

Same. In fact I’d probably love more than anything to read the drafts of JJ’s IX.

I think the key to why some of us think TROS is a good final film is how epic the battle is. The series is titled Star Wars. The hallmark of the series has been the space battles. In TROS we get one actually in the atmosphere of Exogol. I really haven’t head anything about this that has any descent space battle. I think the Stromtrooper rebellion is a cool idea, but one that needs more time to play out. That would have been a cool thing to have Finn and Rose address in TLJ instead of Fathiers and gamblers. But to bring it out just in the final film seems a little rushed to me. For me, the epic nature of Palaptine, a fleet of planet killers, and so many other things about TROS just were so much better than what I see here. I just don’t see the epic nature and how that adds to the saga lore.

Personally I thought the final space battle in TROS was weak sauce. Nothing much happens besides the fleet of “people” showing up. Honestly DOTF is kind of similar, there’s a space battle without much of a purpose and that exact moment is in it (right down to Lando leading the charge). It’s actually better than the moment in TROS because it’s properly set up in the rest of the script.

The only thing it’s missing I guess is the “epic” fleet of Star Destroyers. But DOTF has what basically no SW film has, which is an epic LOTR-style ground battle. Maybe the stormtrooper rebellion isn’t terribly well set up in TFA and TLJ (shame about that deleted Phasma scene), but it’s still a fitting end for Finn’s arc and feels fitting in a larger sense for the saga.

I remembered that Making Star Wars had leaked a summary of a later Trevorrow draft awhile back. The summary was poorly written and hard to follow, but now that I’ve read the first draft I decided to take another look:
https://makingstarwars.net/2020/01/i-read-colin-trevorrow-and-derek-connollys-final-star-wars-episode-ix-script/

Unsurprisingly it seems to have fixed many of my issues. The second act is bulked up, Rey’s climactic mission becomes the main mission to transmit the message, the Knights of Ren are far more prominent with one of them being the final villain that Rey and Ben face together. Things are simplified, like Kylo’s quest in the first act and meeting Lando. Kylo in general seems to have a bit more humanity - apparently it was Snoke, not him, who killed Rey’s parents - and he has at least one Force bond with Rey. Also interesting that this is now post-Carrie’s death, but they still include her, but in a similar capacity to TROS where she has a few scenes in the beginning and then dies. In that case I’d suspect they were already working with the idea of using deleted footage of Carrie.

I’d be very curious to read this draft, as it seems much better based on the summary. On the downside, it seems like they’ve lost Coruscant and Mortis in this draft, which is too bad.

idir_hh said:

One my favourite aspects of this script is precisely Kylo Rens character, they didn’t shy away from going all out evil, surpassing even Vader. Seeing him struggle to succeed where his grandfather “failed”- killing his sentiment - his grandfathers greatest weakness, Kylo subsequently becoming emptier and emptier until at by the end he becomes an empty shell of himself.

Already happened in TFA.

I really liked how Kylo destroying Vaders helmet symbolically portrayed his finally becoming his own entity which I think would have been great character development.

The same idea was already accomplished in TLJ.

But nah KK and co decided to go with a half arsed attempt at a safe and cliche ‘redemption’.

Sometimes the “safe” and “cliche” choice is actually just the right choice for the story that’s being told.

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption? At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict. The great thing about the TROS version is that Kylo’s redemption was a by-product of what was going on. Rey was on mission (both in the DS wreckage and on Exegol) and Kylo’s turn around came about as a consequence of their interactions (and Leia’s death) - not just a matter of Rey throwing everything aside to win his heart. Luke’s entire focus on DS II was saving Vader when he should have been fighting the Sith with every last breath. The idea that Luke became some kind of legend for this is absurd to me. So I absolutely prefer Kylo’s redemption over the cockamamie “Vader was really just a nice dad and you should always support your dad” thing of ROTJ.

The essential idea of ROTJ is simple. Lucas wanted to send the message that even bad people can make a change for the better, so he did it in the most extreme way possible, taking a character who showed no sign of light or remorse in the previous two films, and giving him a path to redemption by way of love for his son.

Whether the turn works for you or you like the idea behind it is a different matter. But I think it’s purposefully extreme to make a point.

Broom Kid said:

“You still haven’t explained how Kylo being redeemed comes at the expense of Rey and Finn’s stories.”

Because time is finite and spending time, energy, and effort on focusing both Rey and Kylo’s arcs on “Saving Kylo” as the primary goal takes time away from better, more interesting, more worthwhile storytelling endeavors for both of those characters.
I’m also not misunderstanding your point. I’m not saying Kylo isn’t redeemable. He CAN be redeemed. He DOESN’T WANT TO BE, though. And that’s where the compelling aspect of his character really kicks in, and where the tragedy of him is most resonant. And that’s the story of the first two movies. That’s different.

I’m not sure I buy this argument. Kylo is a main character as much as Rey or Finn. Time should be devoted to his conclusion, as it should be to those two. Even if he wasn’t redeemed, his character would still be deserving of ample screen time to conclude his story. If this is the Skywalker saga, and he is a Skywalker, we should expect some care given to his role.

I also believe they were very much trying to set up a scenario where it wasn’t Rey’s job to save Kylo. Where he needed to come to that decision himself, to choose the right thing to do. That’s where his redemption is supposed to be different from Vader, who is only saved because Luke believed in him (technically TROS did do this, though not very elegantly). Kylo has burned all his bridges at the end of TLJ. He tells himself he doesn’t want his soul saved, but it’s left him empty to the core. For me, just from a general storytelling perspective (regardless of the larger saga implications) it’s uninteresting if he doesn’t progress in a meaningful way from that point on. That’s what I mean when I say it’s “boring.”

I would have liked to see an attempt at atonement for the character. What happens when you turn back to the light and you don’t die? Because sacrificing is sort of cheap, easy way out. Having Kylo face up to those he’s hurt - Rey, Finn, Poe - could have lead to interesting, powerful places. Not everyone would be so easily forgiving, which is another interesting thing to play with. Doing the right thing, not for the sake of being forgiven, but simply because it’s the right thing, which is another interesting and different idea that could have been done (that would have been in keeping with the saga, in my mind). And yes, screen time would have to have been spent on this, but I don’t believe it’d necessarily have to be at the expense of any other character. Really I think they shackled themselves by trying to maintain the traditional 2hr runtime. TLJ knew that it was working with a bigger story than usual, with more main characters than other movies, and it had a runtime befitting of that. TROS as is is a film feels like a 3hr story awkwardly crammed into a 2hr movie.

I understand that you and I have fundamental disagreements on this specific issue, and despite the fact that we’re probably not going to bridge that divide ever because of the way we look at the story, the story’s possibilities, and other key factors, I do want to say that while I disagree, I DO understand where you’re coming from, and I appreciate the level of thought and time you put into the conversation, and that you’ve never gotten angry, impatient, or mean-spirited about that disagreement. It’s very much appreciated.

Likewise, of course.

You still haven’t explained how Kylo being redeemed comes at the expense of Rey and Finn’s stories. You’re taking that as a given, when I’m here not understanding what that even means or how that’s the case at all.

You also sort of misunderstand my point about identification, and it being for kids. People identify with Kylo. He’s not just “the bully” for people. They see themselves in him. For a kid to be see themselves in him, and then for the conclusion to be that they’re really just an irredeemable monster is fucked. Obviously SW is not just for kids, and the myth should stand on its own. But even in that sense it’s a terribly boring conclusion for a character to die evil.

As for fascism, the character is explicitly separated from the FO ideology. On the one side we have the fanatic Hux who seems more in charge of the machinery of the FO. On the other, Kylo, who’s really just shown to be with the FO because they’re the bad guys/dark side. His story is separate from that. TLJ sets up an interesting conflict where Kylo is now Supreme Leader, but doesn’t work well with people like Hux who have their own goals. If you see him as alt-right, that’s a you problem, and is not one very well supported by the film.

Star Wars is a lot of things. Political to some degree, sure, but that’s never been the whole point. SW characterization shouldn’t suffer at the altar of a political message. A SW story should be something more timeless than just trying to take a dig at a shit head like Ben Shapiro. It’s bigger than that, it’s more universal than that. You can say that SW can and should evolve beyond what it’s been, but at some point you’re asking for it to be something that it fundamentally is just not. When you’re talking about a conclusion to a trilogy, and a nine episode saga, you’re not talking about the right time to just wholeheartedly abandon some of the most prominent themes of the series. Forgiveness and redemption. Seeing the good in people. Learning from failure. Saving, not fighting. Freedom of choice. Hope, always.

To put it simply, what you’re asking for is something that is at its very core antithetical to all that Star Wars has built up. It’s not Star Wars, and thank god it doesn’t exist, trashy as TROS is, at least they understood what Kylo meant. Even if it was the only story they got vaguely right, it’s at least something. To make him an irredeemable villain would have been character assassination on par with Rey Palpatine. So I guess in that sense it’s surprising they didn’t do it, considering all the other awful decisions made.

No Broom Kid is 100% right.

JEDIT: Sorry, he’s mostly right, but Poe is a commander at the time, not a captain.

FreezingTNT2 said:

DominicCobb said:

Lightspeed tracking is “impossible.” There’s no reason to think they should account for it. And look how close Poe’s plan came to failing. If Paige wasn’t able to press that button in time, the whole Resistance would have been wiped out right then and there.

+1

Have you changed your mind? Or are you missing how my post is directly refuting yours?

I’m struggling to understand how redeeming Kylo makes the whole trilogy about him anymore so than it already was. That’s a jump being made and I don’t see the reasoning behind it, or the evidence of it in the final product.

I also reject the notion that Kylo shouldn’t have turned good just because Vader did too. A story should dictate its own direction, not just follow the path of another - whether that’s copying or purposefully doing the opposite. Not doing something just because its been done before is just as bad as doing something just because it’s been done before. What matters is what’s right for the story.

The idea that Kylo Ren represents the alt-right is not in anyway a given. That’s not the message that they’ve ever been trying to make, and it’s not the message that comes through in the film (Hux? maybe. Kylo? No). From the very start this is a character they humanized and gave depth to. He is someone who has struggled with the darkness within him, who has been manipulated and abused by evil men, who has been betrayed by a loved one, who has made choices that he has regretted, and who we know has the same capacity for light as he does for darkness. Star Wars is and has always been a mythic story, a metaphorical story about right and wrong and the freedom of choice to do good. Kylo is not supposed to be that evil other, you’re supposed to see yourself in him. He’s not the big bad to Rey’s goody hero, they’re a yin and yang. To cast this aside and just make him evil is to ignore everything that makes the character interesting.

I think Rian Johnson said it best:

And also this tweet that he liked:

At its heart, SW films are for kids. TFA did a new thing for a SW film, where it made the villain a POV character in a way that none of the other films did. TLJ took this further, inviting identification with the character, engendering sympathy and empathy with him. There was only one conclusion that made sense for him in Episode IX.

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I’ll have to read it and see if anything could be nodded to in a fan edit.

Oddly enough, there are a couple lines in this (like verbatim) that I had the idea to include in a fan edit right after I saw the movie two months ago, way before the leak. I will say at this point I think only one of them can be accomplished, but still.

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

idir_hh said:

Full Colin Trevarrow script:
https://mega.nz/#!MegFDK7Y!dK6dhZsRXTmIgZ39l9719Macz1TQCZQtlhSCz0EdmOI

Thanks. I’ve added it to my script collection and I’ll give it a read when I have a chance. Again, I think having Kylo so conflicted for three films and it not ending in his redemption is a mistake.

It does end with his redemption though. At the end of the movie, Kylo learns how to drain the life force out of people, and uses it to drain Rey’s life force. Just when he’s about to kill Rey, Leia talks to him through the force, convincing him to give some of his life force back to Rey, sacrificing himself to save her. It’s a last minute redemption, but it’s still a redemption.

Here’s what’s dumb about this and why it is in no way a redemption: he is the one who is about to kill her, and his redemption is just deciding not to, and sacrificing himself so that she doesn’t die - except she still fucking dies.

Thanks for the detailed pro/con list. Sounds like the cons are pretty significant. I think what this story does with Kylo makes it worse than what we got in TROS. Make that Kylo and Poe. Sounds like he concentrated on Rey, Finn, and Rose.

They did to Kylo what TROS did to Rey - ruined the character almost completely. Really, the two swapped. DOTF Rey gets a good story in the broad strokes, though without the proper meat to make it perfect. Poe is definitely worse here, though TROS Poe isn’t amazing to begin with. DOTF Finn and Rose very clearly are much better than their TROS counterparts.

Lightspeed tracking is “impossible.” There’s no reason to think they should account for it. And look how close Poe’s plan came to failing. If Paige wasn’t able to press that button in time, the whole Resistance would have been wiped out right then and there.

Hal 9000 said:

I’ll have to read it and see if anything could be nodded to in a fan edit.

Oddly enough, there are a couple lines in this (like verbatim) that I had the idea to include in a fan edit right after I saw the movie two months ago, way before the leak. I will say at this point I think only one of them can be accomplished, but still.

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

idir_hh said:

Full Colin Trevarrow script:
https://mega.nz/#!MegFDK7Y!dK6dhZsRXTmIgZ39l9719Macz1TQCZQtlhSCz0EdmOI

Thanks. I’ve added it to my script collection and I’ll give it a read when I have a chance. Again, I think having Kylo so conflicted for three films and it not ending in his redemption is a mistake.

It does end with his redemption though. At the end of the movie, Kylo learns how to drain the life force out of people, and uses it to drain Rey’s life force. Just when he’s about to kill Rey, Leia talks to him through the force, convincing him to give some of his life force back to Rey, sacrificing himself to save her. It’s a last minute redemption, but it’s still a redemption.

Here’s what’s dumb about this and why it is in no way a redemption: he is the one who is about to kill her, and his redemption is just deciding not to, and sacrificing himself so that she doesn’t die - except she still fucking dies.

Alright, I’ve finally read it. Here’s a brief summary of my feelings, with the qualifier being that this was supposedly the first draft and they obviously would have changed things.

Pros:

• Rey’s story. It follows in a clear line what was set up from TLJ. She’s from nowhere, but that doesn’t make her no one. She’s going to rebuild the Jedi, but she’s going to do it her way, and will fix their mistakes.
• Finn’s story. Full circle for him, trying to give other stormtroopers the clarity of choice that he had. Saving them, not fighting them - the proper progression for his arc.
• Rose’s role. She doesn’t have an arc or anything, but at least she has a presence that is befitting a main character.
• A solid mission for the Resistance. Transmitting a message across the galaxy to rise up and then taking the capital both make sense as a trilogy-capping goal for the heroes.
• At least one interesting scene with the Knights of Ren. It’s not much, but it’s something.
• Some genuinely funny jokes.
• A fun opening mission for the main group to play off each other.
• Going to Mortis and really exploring the idea of balance and what that means is really smart and interesting.
• Luke’s presence, appearing to both Rey and Kylo.
• The moment where Rey reaches out into the Force, and connects with everyone and gains strength from their hope. A really beautiful moment that encapsulates what we’ve always known is true about from the Force and puts it in action in a way that should have been dramatized long ago.
• Rey’s final scenes, where she has the choice to live or join the Force, and then we see her show up at the end to train the kids. Just a really fitting and meaningful end to the saga.

Neutral:

• The conclusion, in a galactic sense. TFA and TLJ had a clear message about the ever presence of the dark side, and the need to always be prepared to fight. This ends with a simple ‘we beat them for real this time’ vibe. I say neutral only because the scope of the Resistance’s victory makes it feel much more final than what we saw in ROTJ.
• The grey Jedi of it all. I think all the ideas are in the right place - Rey not being afraid of her emotions, her love and her attachments and all that - but I’m not sure they’re all executed in a way that serves this theme. In particular, the idea that she’s using the darkness within her, we only see a couple hints of this and it’s not really remarked upon. She kills a Knight of Ren with Force lightning and Rey’s not sure if that was good or bad in the moment. Ultimately, when she says she’s balancing the light and the dark, the only real assumption, with nothing else said, is that using the lightning is okay. The implications aren’t thought through and they lead to a bad spot. It makes sense that Rey isn’t following all the teachings of the Jedi, but what about using the Force for knowledge and defense and not attack? There’s no clarity here.

Cons:

• Kylo Ren. His story in this is just painfully bad. I don’t necessarily have a problem with the idea that he hadn’t hit rock bottom yet in terms of badness in TFA and TLJ, but for that rock bottom here to be immediately before he changed his mind and then died is really just awful. It means his entire story here was just ‘become more powerful than Darth Vader,’ which is such a terrible abandonment of everything that made the character interesting.
• Poe Dameron. Pretty much does nothing of note except be in love with Rey.
• Rey and Poe. Silly and out of left field, considering the last two movies. The ideas they were trying to accomplish with it could have been better done elsewhere.
• Rey and Kylo. Listen, I’m not a Reylo, per se, but it’s kind of hard not to see how this would have worked. TLJ really built up their relationship (romantic or not), but it’s totally shafted here. If it wasn’t bad enough that they have no Force bonds and their only scene together is them fighting, they also had to reveal that Kylo killed Rey’s parents (no reason) which retroactively changes their dynamic in TLJ completely (for the worse), because he knew this all along. Anyway, back to Reylo, if Trevorrow and Connelly wanted Rey to be in love with someone, flying in the face of the Jedi code, and they wanted to balance the light and the dark, the simplest and cleanest solution, based on what had been established in the last two films, was bringing Rey and Ben together.
• Leia. Despite this being pre-Carrie’s death, Leia has essentially nothing to do, and also has completely given up on her son.
• The plotting, in general, is sloppy. The number of planets featured is laughable. The opening mission barely has a goal, and ultimately has very little to do with the rest of the film. The FO has planet destroying Star Destroyers, but it’s literally just a throwaway scene and doesn’t factor into the story at all. The middle section of the film is relatively short (the script is front and back heavy). Characters split up nearly every other scene, leading to sections where we’re jumping back and forth between like 6 or 7 different storylines. And perhaps worst of all, the final showdown between Rey and Kylo has basically nothing to do with everything else going on.

So, mixed bag, though a lot of my problems feel like things that would have been corrected upon further drafts. So, until those drafts are leaked, I’ll say this is a very ambitious script, with big swings that I really appreciate, even in it’s overall messiness. Ultimately it’s very similar in that sense to the final product that we got, though I have to say on paper I find the ideas being played with here more interesting than those we ended up with in the final cut of JJ’s Episode IX.

Wanderer_ said:

DominicCobb said:

Whether you think he deserves it or not, Kylo was pretty obviously being set up for redemption every step of the way. They’ve basically confirmed this saying it was the plan all along.

How though? Not in the first one, not in TLJ. What scenes pointed in that direction?

Do you want the short answer or the long one?

I’ll keep it simple. Look at his reaction to killing Han (and his scene with Snoke in TLJ that confirms it) and his final scene in TLJ. These two me, are the most indicative, but nearly every moment with him is in someway building up to this conclusion. I’m honestly baffled how anyone could miss it.

Glad we’re back to talking about Rose saving Finn again, it’s been awhile.

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

In a funny way, the fact that this is really the first time that film and digital have been seamlessly blended on a big movie is kind of full circle for the franchise after the digital innovation of the PT. We’re fully entering an era where you can shoot digital and have it look exactly like film.

Interesting but I think that certain parts (the establishing shot of Rey on the meditation cliff for example) look worse and are probably the digital ones.

Perhaps, but that isn’t an issue with the capture format, since that’s a mostly CG shot you can probably put the blame on the lighting, compositing, or the CG itself.

It’s obvious Poe is fucking up in the moment. Leia tells him to disengage and he shuts her off. They destroy the dreadnaught but scene ends in a distinctly tragic tone with all the bombers dead. Leia slapping Poe shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

idir_hh said:

Broom Kid said:

Reading the script I do believe you could probably have accounted for Fisher’s absence by using the film’s time jump to have her die between movies, and then split her storytelling duties here between other characters. Have her military duties handled by Connix, and then have the familial/Force duties handled by… Anakin. Honestly, his effect on Kylo probably would be more meaningful as he’s written than Leia’s since Anakin is who he looks up to, Anakin’s the only person in the world who has ever been where he is, and Anakin’s the only person who can explain to him why it’s better to do good while you can before you go.

Plus, having the film stop for a second after the first act to recognize Leia’s absence through a resistance memorial somewhere on the compound that the characters meet at would have been a much better tribute to the character than the weird semi-resurrection they gave her in TROS. Plus having Fisher’s real-life daughter assume the duties of Fisher’s best known character, but with Lourde’s character instead, seems more in keeping with how this trilogy works.

Alternatively, you could have ROSE be the new Resistance leader in that case, but I feel that probably takes her out of the action too much and I like the way she’s used here.

To the idea that they should have pushed this back a year - they probably could have developed this in the time they gave it just fine, if they hadn’t been so insistent on specific beats being hit. If they were actually going to push it back a year, my feeling is they’d have done that, and then just gotten Rian Johnson back. But then again - who’s to say they wouldn’t have tried the same thing with him that they did with Trevorrow, now that they’re developing THE END instead of just a Part 2.

Totally agree, It makes me wonder if there is more to Trevorrow leaving the project than what we know, perhaps KK disliked the script outright but for them to go with JJ’s script instead seems odd.
Hopefully we get some light shed what happened soon.

Of course there were more issues than just Carrie’s passing that lead to Trevorrow’s leaving. You have to understand as well that when they fired him and went with JJ, JJ didn’t have a script. So who’s to say in the end that they actually preferred what JJ came up with.

Whether you think he deserves it or not, Kylo was pretty obviously being set up for redemption every step of the way. They’ve basically confirmed this saying it was the plan all along.

At last.

Ash hits the nail on the head.

Fan editing is always a daunting task, especially when the film is as messy as this and there’s so much pressure for you specifically to come up with something good. See it as a compliment. But you need passion to do a fan edit, and it doesn’t make sense to undertake such a task if you’re not feeling the passion. This is a hobby, not a chore.

There’s a lot of people already chomping at the bit to edit the film, so it won’t be lacking for fan edits. Perhaps in time these edits will be your way in - what are you PT edits if not an amalgamation of edits that came before? And look how successful those turned out. For me, nothing makes me want to make a fan edit more than seeing a fan edit that isn’t 100% what I wanted but is so good that it inspires me to make my own. Your PT edits certainly did that for me, hopefully some TROS edits will do that for you.

It’s been known for awhile that some of this film was shot digitally, but I think this article is the first time we’ve found out it was such a big percentage - apparently 50% -
https://www.polygon.com/2020/2/6/21125680/film-vs-digital-debate-movies-cinematography

In a funny way, the fact that this is really the first time that film and digital have been seamlessly blended on a big movie is kind of full circle for the franchise after the digital innovation of the PT. We’re fully entering an era where you can shoot digital and have it look exactly like film.

If you want to rely on head canon, arguably the fact that they’re all ISD could imply by itself that they’re from his time as Emperor.

Remove him from ROTJ too while you’re at it.

VFX reel for the film, including confirmation that flashback Leia is indeed (heavily manipulated) ROTJ footage (while Luke is from TESB):

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/02/rise-of-skywalker-star-wars-visual-effects-vfx