Apparently the bonus features here clock in the same as the ones included in the digital collection versions. So the only thing new here are the films in 4K (though really even that isn’t new considering they’ve been on Disney+ for months).
Gonna be a no for me.
Well, I’m glad I didn’t get my hopes up (it just sort of seems fitting that this film would continue to disappoint).
I did have this sort of feeling from the start. I think the issue is every deleted scene falls under one of two categories - either they are scenes that don’t work with the final edit (like the Mustafar stuff considering changes to the crawl/structure), or they’re just little moments here and there in preexisting scenes (they’ve never really included any “extended” scenes before).
Thankfully my ideas for editing the film weren’t dependent on deleted scenes (though I certainly would have appreciated them).
Small thing, but Rey’s line
I will earn your brother’s saber.
Weird one. First I should say every time I saw the film, I thought she was saying “I will learn your brother’s saber,” partially because of how she says it but also because this is directly tied with her training.
Anyway, it does feel like an important marker for the symbolism of the saber in the film. But wouldn’t it have made more sense though if she said “I will earn you family’s saber”? That kind of gets to the heart of what’s really going on in regards to Rey’s struggle with her legacy, and her ultimate identification with the Skywalker line much better, doesn’t it? And really in the final scene, she should have used the saber to build her new one, rather than just burying it.
I mean, really that beat should have happened at the beginning of the film rather than at the end, but what can you do.
I’m not suggesting any sort of scandal, and obviously JJ cut whatever is bullshit. But obviously quite a bit was indeed changed in post production, and quite a bit of reshoots we’re done. That’s just a fact.
Okay, my mistake. I thought you were one of those people. Although I’m still pretty certain that the deleted scenes will be released. It doesn’t matter if they contradict the movie: the prequels and TLJ had many deleted scenes that were replaced in reshoots, and they still got released. If the TFA Blu-ray is anything to go by, the deleted scenes probably won’t be substantial, but there will be some stuff (like the Eye of Webbish Bog scene) for fan editors to work with. I just hope there aren’t any time codes.
That’s not really true though. TLJ’s reshoots were pretty minimal and none of the deleted scenes were “replaced” as such (besides the alternate opening). There are still quite a few deleted scenes from the PT that haven’t been released, a few of them are scenes that were reshot. And TFA’s scenes are minimal, partially because a lot of what wasn’t included were moments that didn’t fit the story as restructured/reshot in the edit.
I’m not suggesting any sort of scandal, and obviously JJ cut whatever is bullshit. But obviously quite a bit was indeed changed in post production, and quite a bit of reshoots we’re done. That’s just a fact.
I’m kinda worried that they might not include the sequence at all if what they filmed contradicts the final edit, and they’re changing how it’s described in the novel to fit the film.
Note also this line from the Oracle:
“You’ve been seeking it for a while, yes? I must warn you, our fiery planet burns away deception. If you proceed down this path, you will encounter your true self.”
Which seemingly sets up Kylo Ren having visions upon reaching the Wayfinder (as in the original cut), but he doesn’t receive those visions here.
I’ve been prepared for awhile for there to be no deleted scenes to speak of. At the moment, it unfortunately seems more likely.
The more I think about it (and your explanation really helps) the more I sort of wish that had been an option ANYONE had pitched or considered. The idea of the subversion in TROS being “how about we just turn Kylo IMMEDIATELY. Let’s just do it”
But to get back to the big Reylo discush - I just don’t feel like she wants to be with him AT ALL. She kind of wanted to in TLJ maybe, but mostly because they can use him, not because she LIKES him. I get the sense HE wants to legit seduce her (he moves on her at her weakest/most vulnerable, definitely, in that hut), and I believe he’s into that idea, but I don’t really get the sense it’s a thing she’s into. She’s maybe willing to USE that to bring him to her side, but like Luke says “This isn’t going to go the way you think,” and it doesn’t.
She says “I would have taken BEN’S hand” but that’s the biggest problem with the “romance” in TROS - before the kiss, that’s really the only sign she even likes him, much less wants to be with him. She says it out loud but she doesn’t show it, and she only says it after having actually killed him and then healed him - and the way she heals him is kind of a dig, too, haha.
Well, I think they played it as subtext in TLJ in a way that could be validly interpreted in a few different ways. You could make the argument that it was one-sided from Kylo’s side, but I think you also could make a pretty decent argument it was one-sided from Rey’s (or of course an argument that they were both into it). Regardless I think it was an interesting idea - whichever interpretation you go with - to play with in IX. I wish they had made their feelings clearer in the film. I think the idea we’re supposed to gather is that Kylo is in love with her and this is part of why he wants to turn her rather than kill her, and while Rey caught some feelings in TLJ she got over it when he refused to stop firing on the fleet (or is trying to get over it).
Huh, that is another good point I hadn’t really considered. Then Poe could better fit into the role of Leader as he was meant to be, more wise and mature. I think Leia could have died earlier in the film, possibly whenever Kylo is almost killed/left for dead by Hux and the Knights of Ren.
One of the biggest “this would have been so easy to do” missed opportunities in the film is not putting Poe in an X-wing. Especially considering he does nothing of note in the final battle, wouldn’t it have been a great resolution for his arc to see him calling the shots from a general’s chair of a capitol ship in the final battle instead?
I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.
I don’t think the idea is that he’d be chummy with them, at least not at the start. There’d be a lot of friction, which would be both fun and a cause of some good drama.
You know what I really like about that post? The idea that Kylo renounces the dark side early. WAY early. In fact, I think all my tentative feelings with his redemption get drastically minimized if it’s not presented as a big movie (and saga) ending reward, but if it’s an end-of-first-act thing in response to something really horrible and awful that Hux & the Knights of Ren do. At which point the big fight between Kylo and Rey is almost 100% one-sided where he’s just trying not to die while explaining that he wants to atone. And then… we start the 2nd act.
The character dynamics of THAT movie are drastically different (and kind of exciting) more-so than the sort of “we know he’s going to turn good by the end here” vibe that TROS and DOTF both had. The idea that the rest of the trio HAVE to interact with him now would be really, really interesting to see play out.
I agree. Obviously Kylo turning is no great twist, so it would have helped to get it over and done with. Especially because, if you don’t, you’re sort of left with the question of what does he do before the turn?
In my mind, at the end of TLJ, we already know that becoming Supreme Leader won’t leave him fulfilled. So either you have him regress a bit, lashing out and reaching dark side rock bottom (with some sort of epiphany moment), or you have him wanting out from the very start - which is more what I would have done, him trying to take the First Order in a new, less evil sort of direction and getting push back. TROS chose neither. Instead, we got wheel spinning. Kylo just asking Rey to join him on the dark side for an hour like he already did in the last movie, while removing anything featuring him doing something overtly dark side (like killing Hux for being the spy).
There is that epiphany moment, but it’s cushioned by how abrupt it is, and with little context, like how if we had known for sure that Kylo was in love with Rey, as they had originally planned to set up in the Oracle scene, it would have been a much more powerful “what am I doing?” moment when he’s about to kill her.
I don’t even think you’d have needed to drastically divorced yourself from the preexisting structure of TROS. Combine Pasaana and Kijimi, so they get to the Death Star a lot sooner. Than, before the heroes zip off planet, they ‘arrest’ Kylo Ren. But instead of just being able to toss him in jail or whatever, they are forced to work with him because he knows the way to Exegol. Something like that.
I also think Finn/Rey made more sense than Rey/Kylo (I don’t see a lot of romance on Rey’s part towards Kylo. I see some going the other direction, but she never really seems too into the idea on her part in either TFA or TLJ) but again, I think the best possible romantic pairing in the sequel trilogy was Finn/Poe. The only thing really going for Rey/Finn however is the stray hints at it in TFA that didn’t really get picked up on in TLJ - although the hug when Finn and Rey reunite definitely has more going for it on an emotional level than Rose kissing Finn. But then again - Poe introducing himself to Rey basically signals that Finn/Rey is out of the question going forward if they stick with Trevorrow, and it’s only possible in TROS if JJ remembers what he was kind of trying to do in TFA with those two… and he apparently didn’t.
The biggest problem with any Rey pairing is that there’s not really enough work put into any of the movies to suggest she even needs the romantic aspect to be addressed, much less addressed the way it was in TROS. And even in that movie - it only happens very, very late in the movie (she spends most of TROS exceedingly angry with Kylo, tries to kill him twice before ACTUALLY KILLING HIM but healing him before he can die), and that romance is taken off the board by his death almost immediately afterwards anyway.
Finn/Rey, like most things in TFA, was set up so that it could go either way. The introduction of Rose in TLJ seemed to imply that the direction for the pair would be “just friends,” but I think it still was way open enough that you could do a romance in IX and it’d feel natural (even though the pair are separated in TLJ, they’re constantly talking about the other, with their reunion being a big beat).
I agree Rey didn’t need a romance. But credit where it’s due, Trevorrow at least gives a reason for it (tying back into the “Jedi code” and rejecting it as part of her path forward).
When it comes to Kylo, personally I think they were intentionally playing for romance in TLJ. There was no pressing need to go through with it in IX, but I did find it a very interesting added ripple to their relationship that complicated the typical arch nemesis set up going into the finale. To that extent I’m glad they made it explicit, although Abrams clearly wanted to leave the kiss as a twist at the end, so all we’re left with in the lead up is subtext, which isn’t quite as interesting as what could have been done with it. But I think Rey stabbing him is a great beat. She lets her anger get the better of her and immediately regrets it. She wants to be with Ben, but not on the dark side. The issue with the scene is really there’s no great explanation for why Rey is fighting him in the first place.
Speaking of Poe and Rey, it is definitely something I don’t prefer, but I feel like I understand why Colin included it.
I think Colin wanted one of the things Rey had to deal with be the dilemma between romantic love and the Jedi path, and her not denying love was meant to be an acknowledgement of, “Love doesn’t make us weak, but strong.” The old ways of non-attachment and fearing love was counterproductive for the Jedi. Colin interpreted the conclusion Kylo’s arc in TLJ as definitively choosing the dark side, and the potential for that relationship ended. Since Finn and Rose were set up as a thing, it really only leaves Poe to have that necessary romance for Rey. I have a friend who ships them, so when I told her that it actually happened in Colin’s script it blew her mind.
I get why Colin felt a romance was necessary for Rey, considering her conclusion (I’m glad there was at least a reason for it), though I don’t think Poe was the best choice at all. I mentioned it before, but while Colin obviously had other plans for Kylo that complicated this, the Reylo thing actually seems to make the most sense here (like you explained) - especially when you just look at it on paper, bringing together the light and the dark. I would argue Finn makes more sense as well, considering Trevorrow treated the Finn/Rose relationship with only minimally more investment than JJ.
Do we know whether or not the Rey/Poe romance was still in the second Trevorrow draft that MSW talked about?
Unfortunately, yes. According to MSW:
“Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this.”
Other than that, I think the second draft is a big improvement over the first. Kylo is humanized, the plot is streamlined, some moments that came out of nowhere originally have more setup, Carrie Fisher’s death is dealt with in a satisfying way, and we get more of redeemed Kylo before he dies. The only problem I have with the second draft is the renaming of Coruscant to “Remnicore,” but that’s not a dealbreaker for me. I’m confident that if Trevorrow had time to refine his script before filming, his version of Episode IX would have been amazing.
Starkiller, do you think you could post the summary, or parts of it, that he shared? I do not recall most of those details at all! Must have missed it.
The Rey/Poe romance was definitely staying, IIRC he specifically asked Rian to write the “I’m Poe/I’m Rey” scene at the end of The Last Jedi to accomodate it.
You remember correctly, but, in fairness, it was probably a good idea to stick in a scene of them meeting, regardless of potential romance.
Do we know whether or not the Rey/Poe romance was still in the second Trevorrow draft that MSW talked about?
Unless I missed something, MSW didn’t mention it at all in their summary. So who’s to say, Rey and Poe still go off on a mission together, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was something that got excised (hard to imagine no one having an issue with it).
JEDIT: Nevermind, though the context of the kiss has changed, so who knows.
Do we know whether or not the Rey/Poe romance was still in the second Trevorrow draft that MSW talked about?
Unfortunately, yes. According to MSW:
“Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this.”
Other than that, I think the second draft is a big improvement over the first. Kylo is humanized, the plot is streamlined, some moments that came out of nowhere originally have more setup, Carrie Fisher’s death is dealt with in a satisfying way, and we get more of redeemed Kylo before he dies. The only problem I have with the second draft is the renaming of Coruscant to “Remnicore,” but that’s not a dealbreaker for me. I’m confident that if Trevorrow had time to refine his script before filming, his version of Episode IX would have been amazing.
On paper the changes sound good, though I’m curious how they’d look in the actual script. In particular I’m very interested in the Leia stuff.
I sincerely doubt the final product of TFA was about 70% the same as the first draft.
I think it was pretty close. I also think there weren’t that many drafts, either. I think it might have been something like 2 1/2, haha.
That’s about 1 1/2 more than Attack of the Clones got
I mean, just offhand - originally the film started with Luke’s hand holding the saber in space and went into a whole flashback montage, the saber was the McGuffin instead of the map, Poe died, Maz went back to the Resistance base with the gang, the Resistance had the Sledgehammer ship/weapon - and these are all things that were in the Abrams/Kasdan draft. Who knows what other things were different in Arndt’s version (at the very least we know originally Luke showed up for the climax), but there were other notable evolutions along the way (including the introduction of Starkiller base, making Finn a stormtrooper, and Kylo Ren in general), though it’s unclear if these were fully developed before the first draft or not.
Certainly the original film is a unique case for a lot of reasons (the biggest simply being that there was a completely blank canvas). But I’d say stacking DOTF up against the drafts for really any of the other SW films isn’t unreasonable. They’re all individual cases with unique factors, but they all paint similar pictures, more or less: things changed a lot.
In fact, Lucas’s work on the PT is very similar to the process JJ went through on his SW films: write a script, rewrite on set, rewrite again after principal photography has wrapped. I sincerely doubt the final product of TFA was about 70% the same as the first draft. I get the impression it was more like 50%, maybe even less. That movie went through considerable changes. We know TROS had some heft reshoots as well, though at this point it’s hard to say how significant they were in terms of story, and also how much the script changed from its inception. Of the trilogy, TLJ seems to be the outlier where really not that much was changed at all.
I’d guess within a week or two.
One of the bigger disappointments about The Rise Of Skywalker is precisely how badly they botched making that point, when it was absolutely key that they did so. The exact question, the very notion that bloodline is THAT important, when legacy can (and should) be and mean more than simply blood and familial connections - the first two movies laid a lot of road to arrive at a destination where that entire question is answered definitively. The legacy of the Skywalker family SHOULD BE, by the end of Rise of Skywalker, that the family name doesn’t need to be tied to blood in order to have meaning and power. That by the end of their saga, the ultimate lesson they’ve passed on is one that is inclusive, hopeful, and meaningful. You can be what they were, and that name can apply to you, because it’s no longer just the name of a family, but the name of a philosophy, or an outlook on life, and living.
Rise of Skywalker didn’t get anywhere NEAR that, and while I don’t believe that sequels can retroactively ruin the movies they follow, that the quality and status of that preceding film is what it is, and that work stands on its own FOR what it is, no matter what - I do think that Rise of Skywalker dropping that ball as hard as it did makes the road the preceding two movies laid down a lot less stable. It puts a lot of potholes in the sequel trilogy, basically.
I mean, it wasn’t executed well, but at least they made an effort in this regard. The message is still there. It’s a lot better than can be said for most of the thematic ideas of the trilogy that were dropped.
Again, that’s the point.
Truthfully the best comparison would be to stack this draft up against the first draft of TROS. Who knows if/when that’d ever be possible, though.
Nope.
Could you pleas explain why you like it? I’m genuinely interested.
It sounds like it came straight from a Old Hollywood picture, like a 1940s noir film. Which is a spirit that is in keeping with the series.
Personally I don’t get the hate. Calling Canto Bight “lousy” doesn’t seem terribly heavy handed to me.
I also love how the film is “telling the audience what to think” and yet some people still don’t understand what the movie is saying.
Nope.
Oddly enough, considering at least one of those Endgame comparisons dates back to DOTF, it seems more likely than ever it was just coincidence.
I feel like many people look at Kylo and Vader through the lens of them being authoritarian dictators, when I think we should look at them through the lens of family. Fathers and sons. This isn’t a story about Adolf Hitler or a Neo-Nazi, it’s a story about your estranged father or your misguided son. Or even you, after you’ve realized you’ve made some mistakes in your life and you may have hurt people you care about. And I think the films try to send a message that it is never too late do try and do the right thing. To make amends with your loved ones.
Yes. I think it’s important to note that, while the Empire and First Order clearly invoke fascist iconography, Vader and Kylo don’t. Vader looks like a samurai, Kylo a black knight. They exist outside of the typical structure of the Empire and FO leadership. Their biggest crimes, in terms of how the story portrays it, is killing their fathers.
This is actually an issue I do take with TLJ. The moralizing, while not central to the story is way too on the nose. First of all, the issues in question are comically black and white. We see the animal abuse and child abuse first-hand. We see the mustache twirling, vulgar rich war profiteering people of Canto Bight. It’s obvious to a person even with a low propensity for critical analysis that these things are wrong. But then, the movie goes a step further and tells the audience flat-out that these things are bad, as if we didn’t already know. It’s lacking in subtlety and I think a little insulting to the viewer.
I’m not sure this is true. This is the offending speech by Rose where she explains why Canto Bight is bad:
Look closer. My sister and I grew up in a poor mining system. The First Order stripped our ore to finance its military… then shelled us to test their weapons. They took everything we had. And who do you think these people are? There is only one business in the galaxy that’ll get you this rich. War. Selling weapons to the First Order. I wish… I could put my fist through this whole lousy beautiful town.
While that doesn’t leave much to the imagination, I suppose she doesn’t outright say it in her balcony speech. But, what’s worse than that is what she says before we even get to Canto Bight. “It’s a horrible place filled with the worst people.”
Before we even get there, the movie is telling us what to expect. And then (surprise!) we get it.
Whether it works, I don’t think that’s actually the intention. I see the idea as playing with the “wretched hive of scum and villainy” expectation, where we’re supposed to be surprised once we actually see Canto Bight, because it’s this gorgeous place of luxury rather than a hovel filled with scoundrels. Again, whether or not it works, Finn is the POV character here and you’re supposed to be caught up in the excitement of the casino like he is, until Rose gives her speech (which for me works because she talking sideways at the issue, rather than hitting us over the head as some have suggested).
For me, looking at whether the good guys or the bad guys are the main characters is the wrong way of looking at it.
I don’t understand how else to look at it if you’re going to discuss structure, theme, and narrative intent. That’s the bones of the story. The scaffolding. It’s the way you build a story so that the meaning comes through loud and clear. If this is a conversation about those sorts of things (and I was under the impression it absolutely was) then you HAVE to look at it that way, don’t you? What’s the alternative? Even fairy tales have to be created by someone who wants to figure out how best to effectively communicate the idea they want to get across. The ideas don’t just happen accidentally.
Well, the question is if we’re talking simply about the mechanics of storytelling or if we’re talking about whether it’s acceptable to have a protagonist who might also be a “bad guy.” You seem to take exception with the fact that Anakin is the main character in the PT, so that’s where I’m coming from.
I’m going to disengage at this point, sorry. But again, thank you for spending the time and being fair and patient about it.
Fair enough.