Story and plot are two different things. And anyway, if the plot of TFA is just the same as ANH (which it isn’t) then it’s not a bad plot at all.
Bottom line though, if you haven’t seen the film, criticizing the options of those who have is simply ridiculous. I have no time for your bullshit. Move along.
Nice piece about what Rey means to young girls (always cool when a film can empower kids): http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/22/star-wars-force-awakens-rey
Also, I’m really itching to figure out what the deleted scenes are all about. Here’s a taste: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/22/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-deleted-scenes
While that’s all well and good JJ, I think that scene needs a little more explaining. Why is Maz giving Leia Anakin’s lightsaber when presumably Finn should have it at this time? We’re still missing quite a few pieces. Hopefully we get to see some of this stuff on the BD.
^Cool idea. I suppose it brings up the question as to how she resists, but of course let’s not forget she is force sensitive.
The scene where Kylo first hears about Rey had me asking questions. The officer mentions a girl and he quickly spins around and forces the officer over. Why the big reaction? Simple histrionics (he is in quite a mood in that scene)? Or does hearing about a hero girl light a spark in his mind (if Luke had a daughter, did he know)? The only thing that makes me doubt this is when he talks to Snoke about her (“she is strong in the force”) he doesn’t say anything about her possible parentage (maybe he knows something he doesn’t want Snoke to know?).
This is the only place I’ve seen Poe hate and honestly I can’t fathom why. Isaac killed with his brief screen time. My biggest criticism of the film might honestly be there wasn’t enough of him.
I actually think he’s going to inherit Han’s place as the charming and witty hotshot pilot (with rugged good looks). Obviously there’s a crucial difference in his character though - his optimism and fervent heroism - which actually provides a nice counterpoint to Finn and Rey’s more reluctant heroism (sort of a reverse of the OT). I saw an interview with Isaac where he says that he imagines his character might have been at the medal ceremony on Yavin or something like that as a kid, and basically thought “I want to be them someday.” It’s a pretty cool thing to keep in mind and it certainly shines through when you watch his scenes.
Mostly though, I just LOVE his chemistry with Boyega. Can’t wait for their buddy adventure next film (assuming Rey’s still off training).
RE: Lando. Don’t know if he needs to come back (what would he add?) but it could be fun. One of my friends was worried he might have been on the planet that got blowed up, but I said I don’t think he’d be a senator, but then I thought about it and honestly Lando could easily be a politician in his later years. Might be interesting to see him in that sort of role.
Some people today are really jaded and can’t easily accept older films. For some, seeing TFA first might be the best way to get invested in the saga enough to watch the rest.
Second time I went with my parents. My mom (born in 61) said TFA was the best movie-going experience she’s had since seeing the original in 77.
Well, here’s some food for thought. It occurred to BuzzFeed to send someone with no prior SW experience to see TFA.
Well, I’d like to hear it from somewhere other than Buzzfeed.
This is more what I was looking for: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/im/2015/12/what_the_force_awakens_is_like_if_it_s_your_first_star_wars.html
JEDIT: Beware, there be spoilers in that article.
Warbler said:
ok let us take Luke from time he boarded cloud city. At that time he was partially train. Shoot him with bowcaster and then hand totally untrained Leia a lightsaber. Who are you going to bet on winning that fight?She’s not Leia though. She’s Rey, who’s been fighting with a staff and jumping around derelict Star Destroyers and taking care of herself with no help in a brutally harsh environment since she was a small child. Melee combat is already part of her skill set regardless of the Force.
Yep. She’d had more use with a melee weapon than Luke when he arrived at Cloud City (which is to say none at all).
As far as her being a Mary Sue … what flaws or limitations did she have? And even if you give her flaws and limitations, but you come up with the excuse that she has some innate ability to overcome those limitations at the whim of the writer, then what is she exactly? This all gets back to how poorly thought out the plot was. Instead of creating a genuine, original story, we had JJ and Kathleen sitting in a room listening to some Disney execs tell them that THIS, and THIS, and THAT, and THAT, and these other 50 things all have to be in the movie to make the most money. That was a recipe for disaster. The plot wound up as an incoherent mess, and that’s really the only criticism I have of Rey’s character. She was basically given “liquid luck” (Harry Potter reference) for any scene in the movie the plot could use it.
From a post I made earlier: “She’s not unflawed. She’s got interesting trust and family issues that are obviously due to what happened to her as a kid and cause her to reject Solo’s offer. It’s a nice arc that’s resolved when Finn and co. come back to save her and she realizes they actually care about her. Of course she also fears her past and the unknown truths about herself which manifest when she touches the lightsaber. She doesn’t just become a full-blown, lightsaber-toting hero right away.”
Her weakness is not external but internal, which in my mind is a pretty good way of showing her vulnerability and humanity.
SW and ESB actually have fairly different styles and tones. I won’t deny they feel more similar to each other than to TFA, but Frink is right, this is a film 35 years later. It’s a new, modern chapter in the saga and should have a different sort of feel, but, honestly to me it still mostly feels like a Star Wars movie. It’s just hard to reconcile it with the OT considering how long they’ve been around and how familiar we are with them.
Sorry Wook. In defense of myself, my main point is that the discussion really shouldn’t have anything to do with her gender.
but how big and strong someone is, inevitably has an impact on that someone’s ability in a fight.
But it’s not the only thing that has an impact. “Size matters not.”
Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things
I’m a huge fan of Rey/Daisy, but Star Wars is not a super hero movie. This isn’t Batman or Superman. I thought she was by far the most compelling character in TFA, loved most of the scenes with her, but it’s a valid criticism that she was too much of a Mary Sue. Her force powers were not paced and developed properly. Being able to talk to BB-8 and Chewie was stupid.
Well she’s a wizard then. Harry Potter could talk to snakes without being trained. Same shit, different name. I agree the mind trick ability was acquired too easily, but I don’t see how that makes her a “Mary Sue.” To be a Mary Sue you need a character who has no flaws whatsoever. She is not that. Want a tip? Judging her because of her gender makes it seem like there’s some underlying sexism involved (and I’m not saying there is). Anakin was overpowered in TPM and people criticized him for that, but of course no one mentioned his gender when doing so. This is not an issue of gender (Dameron can talk to BB-8 too).
I feel they should have limited her general badass skills to combat, technical skills, and piloting. The combat ability, even for a woman, needs no explanation. Her technical prowess was sufficiently conveyed, in my opinion, for her to eventually do the technical things she did in the film. However, I do think her ability to pilot the Falcon needed more explanation.
Why? She says she’s a pilot. So does Luke in ANH, if you’ll remember.
DominicCobb said:
. . . more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.well I so apologize on behalf of all men. It is all men’s faults that men are on the average bigger and stronger than women, thus making them on the average better in a fight. All men should feel guilty and apologize for this.
We really shouldn’t be getting into this type of discussion, but I’m not saying it’s all men’s fault or something like that. I am a man after all. And sure, men are typically stronger than women. But this is a fantasy film after all, and when the force is involved, your gender shouldn’t matter. Not to mention you can beat someone with things other than brute force.
And no, I’m not asking you to be guilty or apologize, but I think it’s ridiculous that we continue to see such disparity when it comes to the gender of heroes in Hollywood. About fucking time we got a female Jedi in a Star Wars movie.
Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things, regardless of learning.
The only thing Rey does that strains believability is the mind trick, but that’s only because we’re familiar with how the force works and we know that you typically need a good deal of training before you can accomplish that. But the film presents Rey touching the lightsaber as awakening the force within her. It’s different than what we’ve seen previously in the series, but it’s not so different from the origins of many modern superheroes. Whether the lightsaber should have these abilities is another debate. This is a fantastical franchise so I’m inclined to not mind. The force works in mysterious ways and we could find out next film her fast skills in it are strange in universe. But it seems like a different debate than whether she is a believable character, and it’s really a debate that should have nothing to do with her gender.
Well, I feel Rey is believable but even if she weren’t I think it’s ridiculous that it has to be because of a PC agenda. Most blockbusters feature unbelievable male protagonists. Don’t see people complaining about gender politics there.
Well, here’s some food for thought. It occurred to BuzzFeed to send someone with no prior SW experience to see TFA.
Well, I’d like to hear it from somewhere other than Buzzfeed.
Unfortunately the overly competent nature of Rey in the film and her behaviour towards Finn early on does come across like JJ is pushing a PC feminist agenda, I find it disappointing because the last thing anybody want to be reminded of when watching an escapist sci-fi fantasy is the modern world with political correctness and gender politics, it takes you right out of the film IMHO. I’m all for feminism, equality and girl power, but I don’t think this sort of gender politics has any place in Star Wars films that are meant to be universal timeless stories, adding this sort of thing just ties the film down to a certain period in modern history and takes away from that timeless quality that the Original Trilogy had. I don’t want to start a feminism/political correctness debate here, this thread is not the place, it was something that I felt coming across quite strongly in TFA so I felt I should mention it.
Would you feel the same way if you were female? I think if I were female, the last thing I’d want in my escapism is more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.
Daisy Ridley’s performance I felt was a little bland, she’s charming but I didn’t feel much depth in her performance, didn’t like how she got so offended by Boyega grabbing her hand to get her away from the first order, overreaction much? Its bits like that that add fuel to the flames of those accusing JJ of pushing a femenist agenda in this film with the character of Rey. Many online have also been saying that her character is a bit of a Mary Sue and after having seen the film, its kinda difficult to disagree. She seemed to be so good at everything, piloting, engineering, fighting with pole, fighting with lightsaber she’d never used before, using the force for mind control etc etc especially when she was showing up Han Solo on his own ship, not at all believable. And of course her holding her own in the lightsaber battle with kylo ren with no training at all is another thing that has been mentioned here and elsewhere many times. They don’t seem to have left much space for her character to grow, she already seems incredibly competent at everything, it’ll be interesting to see where they go with her and what is left for Luke to teach her.
I’d be pretty miffed if JJ wasn’t pushing a feminist agenda. You do realize what feminism is, right?
Rey got mad at Finn holding her hand because she’s never met him and he’s suddenly grabbing her and running. Makes sense. She doesn’t need him holding her hand to run and escape, in fact, as she shows, it’s easier to run without holding hands. Don’t forget too that she sort of fancies herself a loner (remember when she meets BB-8). Mostly though, here’s this guy she never met who’s suddenly “marked” her as she says and pulled her into this conflict. In my mind, the whole hand thing is worth it when it’s the reverse and she holds out her hand for him to grab. Awesome moment.
I almost agree about her knowing the force too well, the mind trick thing seemed a little much too fast, though I think it’s a fun subverting of the damsel in distress trope. Don’t see what’s wrong with her being good with piloting, engineering and using her staff. She’s had all her life to practice. And her skills with the staff translates to the lightsaber (she’s got more use with a melee weapon than Luke in ESB). Not hard to believe that she could hold her own, especially considering Kylo’s bowcaster wound.
And she’s not unflawed. She’s got interesting trust and family issues that are obviously due to what happened to her as a kid and cause her to reject Solo’s offer. It’s a nice arc that’s resolved when Finn and co. come back to save her and she realizes they actually care about her. Of course she also fears her past and the unknown truths about herself which manifest when she touches the lightsaber. She doesn’t just become a full-blown, lightsaber-toting hero right away.
KK must have been fudging details not to spoil Ford or Sydow’s departure. But I must say I’m a little surprised Nyong’o’s Maz will be back. She felt like the sort of interesting character you only ever see once. But, then again, she seems to know quite a lot about a lot so I can imagine she has the potential to add to future stories.
It would be an interesting experiment for someone who has never seen the OT to watch TFA.
Yep. I feel like you can do it (and I know some people are). I’d love to hear thoughts on TFA from someone who’s never seen Star Wars.
Prequels are definitely not necessary. There’s like maybe one or two things that could be seen as a reference but they are hard to catch and will not affect viewing experience at all.
If you’re not familiar with the marketing or overblown hype for Phasma, her reduced role in the movie won’t mean anything to you. I was expecting/hoping for more from the character, but honestly when she showed up again towards the end I was like “oh yeah, forgot about her.” The truth is there are so many new and interesting characters here some were bound to get the short shrift.
I bet she had more screen time that was cut but honestly I think she was put there to establish a character who’ll get more screen time in later installments.
DominicCobb said:
half assed ROTS scoreWhat!?!? It’s not my favorite movie or anything but I thought the score to ROTS was amazing. The choir parts and strings are so epic.
That’s sort of my problem with it. It feels very generically epic to me in parts (though I do mostly enjoy it). Star Wars has never been epic on the scale of say LOTR, and all the choir parts really felt out of place and over the top considering there’s hardly any choir in the OT (a few low key instances in ROTJ).
That’s not to mention the fact that almost half the film’s score is reused tracks from TPM.
I love Daisy/Rey, I’m indifferent to Boyega/Finn, but I really, really hate the fake fucking persona of Poe Dameron and the cartoonish, travesty of an “acting” performance given by Oscar Isaacson. His character is arguably the fakest, most over the top in any Star Wars film, including the prequels.
Wow, you’re fucking crazy. This kind of hyperbole is just ridiculous and totally unjustified. Oscar Isaac is an incredible actor and manages to leave a lasting impression with Poe despite his small screen time.