Tyrphanax said:
DominicCobb said:
Tyrphanax said:
DominicCobb said:
If a majority isn’t a majority then what is it?
What if, in your scenario, millions lived in that one city and the boonies, all put together, amounted to a dozen, total. What gives those people more of a voice than a dozen in the city? Just because people live in a city, doesn’t mean they all think alike or want the same things.
If the people want a cat, they’ll elect a cat. Whether there’s an electoral college system in place wouldn’t change that. There’s nothing about cats that’s going to make everybody in the cities vote for it and no one in the boonies.
Yes there are more liberals in the cities, but if liberal candidates started pandering to only those in the cities they would lose a lot of other votes fast. As is, we have conservative candidates who don’t consider those in cities at all because they don’t have to (well besides corporate fat cats). Our current system gears elections to a small amount of states, not the whole country. Why should people in the rust belt and Florida have control over the country?
Yeah, but how does a straight popular vote not just do the same thing? Why focus on some podunk state in the Midwest when you can just win the most populous states (which would be the ones with the largest liberal metros) and take the election? Again, the idea behind the electoral college was to make candidates focus on the whole country and not just the most populous states, and to make voter fraud more difficult.
I just worry about a majority dictating terms to a minority is all. It’s the old “two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner” adage. We have checks and balances all over government and going with a straight popular vote does away with that entirely.
I’m not saying the electoral college is a perfect system at all, and there are definitely ways to modernize it and bring it up to code, it’s just that I feel that it was put in place for a reason and that I believe it more or less serves that purpose. I also reject NPV as subversive of the constitution verging on fraud.
States aren’t a hive mind though. There’s no such thing as focusing on the most populace states alone. There are voters in New York State who vote a lot closer to those in North Dakota than NYC.
The EC was put in place because of the North/South dichotomy where there were clear divisions between the wants and needs of Northern and Southern states. We don’t live in a country anymore where different states have wildly different make ups and concerns. Two thirds of the country isn’t going to eat the other third, that’s just not going to happen. But when the EC was put in place, the North fucking the South over was a legitimate concern (and it still happened anyway, if you ask the South why they seceded). What happens with policy now affects every state, and every voter.
I just don’t see how this boogeyman hypothetical of a popularly elected president a thing.
There’s already state governments and Congress in place to ensure the individual states get what they need. But at the end of the day we’re supposed to be a democratic nation so everyone should get a say. As is my vote means diddly fucking squat.
Ryan McAvoy said:
Forgive this European if he misunderstands the US Presidential election setup but…
Isn’t the “less populated States and rural areas” argument only a thing if the popular vote had gone against them all the time without the EC system?
The reverse is true…
In the last 100 years the popular vote has given the same result as the college in all but two extremely controversial occasions (Bush in 2000 & Trump in 2016). The idea that there would never be a Republican President again with the Popular vote is nonsense and the opposite of the reality. So why not go with the popular vote?
All but two of our fifty states are winner-takes-all, which means that the candidate with the most votes in that state wins that state’s electoral votes, so the popular vote is almost always going to mirror the electoral college votes.
Obviously states aren’t a hive mind, but there are plenty of clear divisions between states and regions of the US; it’s why the interior of the country usually swings red while the coasts swing blue. You don’t really solve Texas being a red state or California being a blue state if you remove the electoral college.
Majorities are things to be wary of in my opinion, regardless if it’s today or 1850. It’s not a hive mind, sure, but people follow packs and that can lead to bad things and in my opinion, it’s better to plan for the possibility that two thirds of the country might indeed eat the other third; after all, people didn’t expect the revolution or the civil war or Trump’s presidency. We’re always simultaneously not as homogeneous as we think and more homogeneous than we think.
As it stands, you can win all the big 15+ electoral votes states (California, Texas, Florida, Ohio, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, and North Carolina) and still lose the election. But you probably won’t win all of those states because some are red and some are blue, not to mention swing states and flipping states (which played a big factor with Bush and Trump), so the small states where “your vote doesn’t matter” are still incredibly important. In a straight popular vote, why even think about states with a population less than 9 million? Under the current system it can come right down to a state like Montana or Alaska; with a straight popular vote, nothing matters but winning the biggest, most populous states in your constituency, not so much winning a broad variety of different voters.
As with any system, there are of course places that “matter” more than others, but in the current system, which states are important can change from election to election. A pure popular vote just means the biggest states and cities keep getting more important.
I used to be big on abolishing the colleges until a few years ago. Is it perfect? Far far from it, but the importance it places on the voice of the smaller states and minorities in the larger scheme of the governance of the nation as well as the steps it takes towards preventing and containing possible election fraud to the state where it occurs are all important to our elections and should be preserved rather than just outright abolishing the system. It’s checks and balances, which is one of the biggest ideals that the nation was founded upon.
The thing is, no matter what you can’t just pander to the states with the largest populations because ultimately what they want is not going to be the same all one thing, regardless of how many people live there. Even if you ignore a small state (which by the way already happens on the campaign trails, basically none of the small states get any attention - I doubt any candidate has ever campaigned in Alaska or Montana), you’re still going up against policies that they want that extend to other states. Just because California’s always going to be blue and Texas is always going to be red doesn’t mean everyone inside thinks the same way each election. Both states went far bluer for Clinton than they ever did for Obama, and look how much that mattered. I think the issue with the minority argument is in many ways these geographical boundaries are arbitrary, and what sepearates one state from another, ideologically, is becoming more muddled. Liberals are a minority in Texas but the EC only gives voice to the majority every time, no matter what the margin.
I truly believe the thinking in pack arguments is moot these days. If the fear is that we elect a populist disaster, well then it’s clear now that the EC will do nothing to stop that.