DominicCobb

CatBus said:

We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm

We never see what’s under the cape. It could also be a second mouth, or a third ear. I’m starting to wonder about wings.

We do see him sans cape in ESB.

the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet.

I think working with the completely reasonable assumptions is okay, though.

Well sure but in this case you’re assuming your assumption is the only reasonable assumption, which I don’t think is true.

Also, keep in mind through this discussion–Switching around Luke’s father advanced a plot point. Switching around Luke’s sister advanced a plot point. Something was gained in trade for the something that was lost. These things? Throwaway lines, as you said. Nothing was gained in exchange for the dissonance–which I’m freely admitting you did not feel.

For you nothing was gained but I don’t think for everyone. Lots of people saw the prequels. Remember the black stormtrooper outrage? That was because a lot of people though stormtroopers were clones because of the prequels. The line about a clone army was mainly to make clear that these stormtroopers were not clones, which unfortunately a not insignificant amount of the population believed.

As for the Sith line, again, if you’ve seen the prequels it would be very strange and quite “WTF” for Maz to not mention the Sith. And even if you haven’t seen the PT, for her list of dark side threats to start and end with the Empire and First Order would kind of negate the point of seeing evil “through the ages.” Two things does not a list make.

It helps if you don’t get worked up about small things like “a special GMA announcement.”

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.

Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.

Again, it’s a big galaxy. Your “nowhere” is just a handful of planets. And we don’t know if we could really say they were “common enough to fight a war over.” Again, if we’re going just by the original film, all we have is the phrase “Clone Wars.” That’s a completely reasonable assumption to make but it is not the only possibility.

Going back, your Alderaan analogy doesn’t really make sense at all. We know with a 100% certainty that Alderaan was destroyed. A closer analogy would be if they mentioned Dantooine. Even though “it has been deserted for some time,” that doesn’t mean there isn’t the possibility that it can become undeserved. And even that’s pushing it, because we are explicitly told that Dantooine has been deserted, whereas with the clones, any idea that they’ve been out of commission is a complete assumption on your part and neither explicitly confirmed nor definitively denied by anything in the any of the films.

Star Wars has always played with our assumptions. We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm, but then again we were told that Vader murdered Luke’s father and that turned out to be not the case at all. If they wanted to they could easily retcon the Tonnika sisters or the multitudes of Greeds or whatever into clones and it’d make just about as much sense as Vader being Luke’s father. My point being, again that it’s a big galaxy and the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet. If it doesn’t explicitly contradict, who cares?

But where
did you find
those clips?

later
-DC

You could (and probably should, if possible) also fit in at least one instance of the Resistance realizing that the weapon is about to fire again, which would at least imply that the good guys know what’s up (which would help with the chipper attitude). Either way, as Neverar said, if we think that the base can fire any number of times then we know that it needs to be stopped ASAP (and the simple fact that the X-Wings continue their attack could be enough to acknowledge that they know this).

I guess the issue is just how do you get this idea across but I’m sure there’s a way (perhaps what Neverar suggested^) and otherwise I don’t think restructuring the sequence would be that intensive.

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?

I was operating under the assumption that people don’t stop doing things without reason. They clearly stopped making lightsabers because blasters were simply more effective, albeit less elegant (from the available evidence, I have to agree with Han on that score). They stopped cloning for less clear reasons, but there was a war over it, and it’s safe to assume that the clones were on the losing side because none are around by Star Wars, so maybe the clones just didn’t live up to their military potential. In my mind, clones and lightsabers both represent the technological dead ends of the distant past, long since surpassed, with nothing but their nostalgic glow keeping them worth talking about–and that’s at the beginning of Star Wars, let alone three films later.

And yes, Luke can take out a whole sail barge full of blaster-wielding opponents with his lightsaber. But I doubt a lightsaber in the hands of a non-Jedi would be very effective (your three foot range will eventually bite you), and I suspect a Jedi who gave up lightsabers and set his mind to mastering the blaster would be formidable, if considerably less cool-looking. And how many spaceships were outfitted with lightsabers vs blasters? Blasters won the day, long ago. Lightsabers only get points for style.

I still think you’re inferring a lot that isn’t necessarily there.

Lightsabers are a bit different because they are explicitly called Jedi weapons and the of course the Jedi are said to be extinct (and also we know that in our history swords were supplanted by firearms). Literally the only thing we know about clones were that there was a war to do with them and it was some time ago. Anything beyond that is purely a personal extrapolatation you came up with. And personal extrapolations are okay but to take them as a point of fact of the galaxy is where the silliness comes in I think. There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.

It definitely seems like the Clone Wars are long gone but I never got the impression that cloning was. It’s a big galaxy, after all (wasn’t Lando supposed to be a clone or something originally?). And “several” planets is only six. Hardly a good sample size.

Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I’m struggling to think of what kind of unique role he could play in the rest of the trilogy.

Good thing you weren’t hired to write Eps VIII and IX then.

I’d totally accept a Battle of Wigglypants because it’s fairly easy to assume that there were many more battles than few we saw (which is of course not to mention the obvious fact here which is that Sith are in SW movies which most people have seen, though I know that’s not the point). Maz is supposedly many hundreds of years old and if she only mentioned the Empire and The First Order as the threats “through the ages” that would seem kind of “WTF,” to me, at least. Like there were no evil threats before the Empire?

As for clones vs. Alderaan, this is where I really don’t get it. In my mind there’s no indication whatsoever that cloning is a completely ancient and defunct practice. I don’t know where you’re getting that idea from.

I’ll agree to disagree.

I’ll just never understand.

I wonder how many more times someone will post an article about the GMA “announcement” before it happens.

It’s kinda far fetched to think that it’s going to be anything of substance (especially with Celebration in a few days), but I suppose it isn’t impossible that it’s a theatrical rerelease announcement (however unlikely).

Highly doubt it’d be a home video thing.

If your screen is 125", you’re much more likely to notice a difference with 4K than most will with screens half that size. You could probably live with out, but I don’t think the quality increase would be insignificant.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I am rewatching TFA right now.

SNOKE: “The Droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance, leading them to the last Jedi.”

Has anyone pointed this out before? Perhaps it clears up the stupid “singular or plural” argument once and for all.

Yes, it’s used in the crawl too. It’s definitely singular in TFA but that doesn’t mean it will be in TLJ.

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

I don’t know man, that’s really pretty silly. Honestly doubt many others had the same reaction you did.

Maybe not. Nevertheless, both essentially booted me out of any sort of immersion in the film, and neither was in any way necessary, so I think it would’ve been better without either. In that respect, they’re really not any better than that shaggy Alf impersonator singing in ROTJ:SE, had that been the original cut of ROTJ.

Just when I thought you couldn’t get any sillier…

The Alf guy had a fair amount of screetime and literally yelled into the camera. That’s basically as bad as it gets.

“Perhaps leader Snoke should consider using a clone army.” Are you honestly saying that’s comparable to a '97 quality CGI effect taking up the whole screen and singing the worst song ever recorded? Not to mention, Kylo Ren is a character with a shrine erected to a 30 year old dead man, and Snoke is most likely ancient himself, so whether or not clones haven’t been used in 2 years or 50 or 100 wouldn’t really matter to them I think?

As for Maz’s line, it’s literally two words - “the Sith.” Were you pulled out of the film when Han mentioned King Prana? Or when Rey mentioned the Irving Boys or Ducain? Because I still have no idea what those things are but they never jerk me out of the film when I watch it.

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

I don’t know man, that’s really pretty silly. Honestly doubt many others had the same reaction you did.

Mocata said:

This guy’s a hack

I didn’t think it was that bad. What has he done?

He starts off the video with a random complaint that has nothing to do with the quality of the Rogue One music. Then he gets into his analysis that’s basically just the same stuff people have been talking about for months (but that he passes off as if they were his own seismic revelations).

I checked out another video to see what his deal is called “Why Your Nostalgic Reboot Musically Sucks.” Kinda provocative and an interesting idea but he starts the video talking about how writing sequel scores is inherently easier than writing wholly original scores and I’m kind of ready to go along. But then he brings up Star Wars, and I’m thinking he’s going to counterpoint his thesis by talking about how brilliant ESB’s score is, but instead he talks about TFA and says that it’s all old stuff except for Rey’s Theme, which just tells me he has no idea what he’s talking about, especially because he refers to a bit of trailer music that wasn’t even part of the score or written by Williams. Maybe if the film had just came out I’d give him a pass but this was about half a year later. The guy was just talking out of his ass.

So yeah, from the two samples it seems he doesn’t actually know anything, therefore, hack. Lots of Youtubers like that, unfortunately.

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

These rearranging ideas all sound kind of fun on paper but I don’t think I’ve seen anything that works in practice.

I’m still of the belief that the way to save the trench run is simply to make it seem like the weapon is going to fire again, this time at the Resistance base.

Mocata said:

A video about the music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGVqPP-52No

This guy’s a hack

I don’t think they’ve been leading us on at all. They’ve barely said anything beyond the typical hyping, it’s just people here are looking for whatever evidence they can.

Now, obviously it’s well known that people want the original versions, but it’s not like the publicity people are in charge of home video releases (and it’s not like they’re not going to hype their event just because it might rattle some feathers from fans who are expecting something they never said was coming).

I hope there’s an OOT announcement just like everyone. But let’s be realistic. We still hardly know what the situation regarding that is like.

I figure with the flag is was probably a placeholder for an unfinished shot.

I think all the other changes are bs but I think the credits extension is probably legit. I saw the film in theaters quite a few times and knew the end credit suite pretty well and I never noticed a difference (and at least one difference between those two is obvious - the inclusion of Scherzo for X-Wings). Not to mention the smoking gun (which no one seems to mention) is the FYC end credit suite. All the FYC tracks contain the music as heard in the film, edits and all. The FYC end credit suite is longer than the OST one as it’s been edited to include the concert version of March of the Resistance. So why else would the FYC have that edit and not the Rey’s Theme and Scherzo for X-Wings edits present on the Blu-ray?

Hal 9000 said:

I would prefer the prequels be referenced occasionally, though not in a way that would dredge up any of their continuity issues with the original trilogy. For example, no references to Qui-Gon as Obi-Wan’s master, since in the OT it was Yoda who trained him. Featuring Bail Organa as played by Jimmy Smitts is perfectly fine, being a character referenced in the OT and nothing about his prequel portrayal strains this. I’d rather not reference Threepio being built by Anakin.
Y’know, reference and include the prequels to whatever degree is appropriate, but I’d avoid anything that wouldn’t read well if one hadn’t seen them.

Yeah pretty much this.

I think a lot of people get a little irrational on this site about PT stuff, like if it was in the PT they hate it no matter what. It’d definitely be cool to see elements from the PT show up again because there actually were some cool design elements in those films. And in terms of the timeline they established, yeah, if it contradicts with the OT don’t bother, but otherwise why not consider that the actual timeline? Just because some Joe Blow came up with a different backstory when he was a kid? Let’s not be silly.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DominicCobb said:

Just met Rian Johnson . . . .

Awesome! Where the hell did you manage that?

Moderating a film screening I went to.

Lord Haseo said:

DominicCobb said:

Just met Rian Johnson . . . .

Damn…did you ask him anything about TLJ?

Obviously. He told me who Rey’s parents were and everything.

Seriously though, I told him I wouldn’t ask him anything about it (he said good because he has snipers trained on his head at all times), but I did have to ask him what it’s like working with John Williams, which he basically said was incredible.

Super cool guy, he really is a genuine fan and seems very excited about it. Called working on TLJ the best experience of his life.

Just met Rian Johnson . . . .

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/late-carrie-fisher-final-star-wars-movie-article-1.3030154