DominicCobb

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

moviefreakedmind said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-arrest-man-suspected-swatting-preceded-deadly-police-shooting-n833576

Police murder an innocent man based on a fraudulent phone call. The police brutality angle is what people are ignoring here.

Looks like at least half of the feedback on Yahoo News to this article is about the inappropriate police response. Even some police responding saying that the lack of verification before sending in a SWAT team, let alone drawing weapons, was very strange. Nobody seems to be ignoring it.

And it appears the instigator has now been apprehended.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/after-swatting-death-in-kansas-25-year-old-arrested-in-los-angeles/

Surprised that they didn’t just kill him.

No one tell them that Vader didn’t just make Needa take a little nap.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel
2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him
3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

Mocata said:

joefavs said:

Solo will have an original theme by John Williams.

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/john-williams-star-wars-composer-han-solo-movie-theme-1202650282/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Well… good for John.

Both of them.

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?

The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.

How do they show such a journey?

I am not going to explain these movies for you.

Thanks.

Nothing personal, but it’s all right there. I’ve had to explain the simplest things enough here, for my own sanity I’m done with it. Enough talking in circles.

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?

The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.

How do they show such a journey?

I am not going to explain these movies for you.

It’s just artistic license. Same reason everyone looks like Thunderbirds puppets in TCW.

I think there was an old thread about this.

It’s an interesting question. You can kinda stretch out these films a lot if you want. But if you follow what happens in the films strictly, all of them happen over the course of only a few days, ROTS included.

Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?

The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.

Tobar said:

Collipso said:

Rey kicking Kylo’s butt makes him seem very weak period. Plus there is no plausible explanation. But this thread isn’t the place for this kind of discussion.

You mean besides the fact that he was severely wounded and bleeding out from a shot to the torso that was previously established to carry enough force to toss multiple troops into the air? And a mental wreck after just murdering his own father?

But you’re right, wrong thread for this discussion.

Not to mention in TLJ Snoke literally explains why this happened (Kylo’s mental state) for everyone who missed it in TFA.

But again, this discussion shouldn’t happen here, or anywhere really, because it’s stupid and pointless.

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

California isn’t a monolithic hive mind. No states are. That’s the problem. You can’t just arbitrarily remove one to make a point.

Nice try, Massachusetts liberal. You just wNt to protect your own interests!!!1!!!

Ha! Joke’s on you, I don’t live in Massachusetts anymore, I moved to California this summer!

…oh

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

California isn’t a monolithic hive mind. No states are. That’s the problem. You can’t just arbitrarily remove one to make a point.

Of course it’s not. Didn’t say it was. Explained data-based reasons for choosing California. I removed Texas too. I wrote about Iowa. Now discussing 4 other states. All while some dwell on perceived secret motivations.

No perceived secret motivations. Doesn’t matter which state you choose, I think it’s a silly premise for an argument.

NFBisms said:

I do think the fact that everyone is so engaged in the conversation about who Luke actually is, means TLJ was at least successful in some of its goals. That’s a question the film itself poses, and that people fall so adamantly on either side means that it did its job. I appreciate how challenging this movie is for fans, and it’s something that I think is good for the franchise to prevent it from becoming just another unspecial billion dollar property. It’s polarizing and controversial in all the right ways I think.

I agree. The film challenges our long lasting perceptions about many aspects of the series while remaining true to the spirit and canon and without shitting on anything that came before (my opinion, obviously, clearly people think the exact opposite).

The PT did the first part without managing to do the second part. Rogue One and TFA definitely did the second part, but not quite so much the first part (though I do think there is still something to say for TFA in this regard). TLJ does both.

Hal 9000 said:

Release it under the ‘Legends’ banner. Sell tickets at half price. Don’t push garbage on us that even you don’t have any confidence in.

If they thought it was garbage and ‘Legends’ material, they wouldn’t have reshot the whole thing in the first place.

California isn’t a monolithic hive mind. No states are. That’s the problem. You can’t just arbitrarily remove one to make a point.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Obi-Wan telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced Anakin, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison at all, as we never see Ben Solo before we see Kylo Ren. And if you mean to compare Anakin to Luke, the differences are so great there as to not even be worth describing.

I’ve said before that I see (and appreciate) that the approach to the ST was to treat it like the OT, where it feels like we’ve missed a couple of episodes of the story. In the OT, we start with episode IV which allows for some history to happen off screen with these characters before the events of the film, some of which will become relevant in surprising ways as the series progresses. The PT obviously torpedoes this by actually showing those episodes. The ST tries to invite back in that kind of mystery and ambiguity, even though technically we’ve seen all the previous episodes, once again there are things we don’t know. And I really like that about it, even though I get why this approach has turned people off - because TFA doesn’t really function as a proper sequel to ROTJ because of this, and I think people were expecting it to and got disappointed.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

Exactly.

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Visions were enough to turn Anakin to the dark side. Like father like son, I suppose.

I just don’t see it as a problem. The temptations are always there for a Jedi. That makes sense to me, and I don’t see much difference between that and what happened in the Emperor’s throne room.

My theater laughed at 100% of the jokes opening night (even when I didn’t).

Obviously humor is subjective. I thought TLJ and TFA were easily the funniest SW films there’ve been. I liked some of the jokes in Rogue One too. Even the prequels have some good jokes. I’m mainly talking about joke integration. Most of the jokes in the PT are completely random, such as Jar Jar smelling a bad fart before the pod race. Just total distractions. That’s where the problem lies.

Is it even fun? I’ve only ever done driving ranges and mini-golf. Somehow I doubt I’d enjoy spending every weekend golfing.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Except that even though Luke refused to fight his father, he still did, and almost killed him. And that Luke immediately regretted igniting his lightsaber, and would have likely tried to save Ben instead had he had the chance.

TV’s Frink said:

I never knew so many people thought Luke was perfect by the final scene of ROTJ and he’d be the exact same person 30-some years later.

Obviously when you decide not to turn to the dark side, that makes you a perfect person. And once you’re a perfect person, you’re pretty much set there for life.

Seriously though, people are expecting things from Luke based on who he was in ROTJ that shouldn’t necessarily hold true for the character some 30 years later. And honestly, I have a lot of problems with how Luke is portrayed in ROTJ anyway.