DominicCobb

I just meant they didn’t copy it from Endgame.

Anakin Starkiller said:

So comparing this to the scene let’s be real we all know TROS was inspired by, look how much time eclipses between the >“we’ve lost” moment to the “everybody’s here!”. There’s this tension that’s slowly building as the heroes gather >together. It’d be so jarring otherwise (as we see in TROS).
https://youtu.be/xp2YlHPAyVI?t=62

I was so sure you were gonna link to RotJ! Besides, Endgame wouldn’t have been out when the script for RoS was finalized. The cavalry arriving to the rescue is just a classic trope.

It’s even in Trevorrow’s script.

Ooh that’s really cool.

Just a technical note I don’t think it’s accurate to say it’s Kim’s music, he’s merely recreating the music from the trailer.

I would say, besides the music being disastrously out of place style wise, I agree with NFB, it’s too much. The main theme is just such a simple yet perfect piece of music to use for such an earnest moment without it veering into cheese.

Knight of Kalee said:

I mentioned it already in the general thread, but besides obvious suggestions like Duel of the Fates or Across the stars, I have a less-known prequel theme in mind, one that is prominent in the second half of ROTS. It’s a Sith motif named “Mystery of the Sith” also known as the second half of Padmé’s Ruminations. It has early hints to the “Anthem of Evil” theme if you listen it closely.

TROS really should serve as a culmination of the saga in all its aspects, including the score.

Is that really a motif though? I can only think of one time it’s used in the film.

I will say too the film as is already features a few quotes of prequel music.

kewlfish said:

StarkillerAG said:

idir_hh said:

I think Anthem of Evil was used too sparingly in the film. I only really noticed it after a few watches, definitely needs to be emphasised throughout.

Yeah, that’s one of the examples of “great music” I was talking about. I think re-scoring the entire movie using old music is the wrong approach. Instead we should emphasize the music that’s already there, and bring the score more in line with Williams’s intentions.

Yeah I watched Sideways video a couple weeks ago and he explains how TROS really kind of missed the mark on the usually very well-thought out placement of Star Wars.

I mean that video kinda missed the mark in a few ways itself.

I think the most egregious examples of this are:

• Yoda’s theme being used when Luke lifted the X-Wing

That makes perfect sense though, considering the scene it’s mirroring.

• Luke and Leia’s theme used for Lando and Jannah (very weird)

The whole scene is weird.

• Under-representation of Prequel music (my opinion not from Sideways’ video)

I’m not sure if that’s an issue exactly. It’s something that can be changed, but it doesn’t feel like a necessity.

canofhumdingers said:

I just finished the first season of Rebels myself and it was pretty great. Honestly, I prefer it to Clone Wars, even if the best Clone Wars has to offer is better from a critical standpoint than anything rebels has to offer (so far). It’s just Rebels NAILS what I would want from an OT Star Wars cartoon. Like, (most of) this show could’ve been made in the 80’s just as easily as when it actually was.

I will say I’m really glad I finished season 7 of Clone Wars on D+ before getting too far into Rebels. I won’t spoil anything but those of you who’ve seen both can guess what confrontation I’m anticipating after the season 1 finale of Rebels, and I feel it will be even more powerful given the (great!) ending of Clone Wars…

Personally I like Rebels more than TCW so if you’re enjoying it now just wait.

I don’t get the idea that he “became a joke in TLJ.” He was a pretty goofy character in TFA and actually dropped most of that and became a lot more serious in TLJ.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Which is? Stormtrooper uprising?

Sure, or really anything that follows the lesson “saving what you love.”

More than that, it’s setting up Finn’s arc for the next film (ignored by JJ and co., naturally).

thebluefrog said:

DominicCobb said:

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

If you read the Artbook for Force Awakens, many ideas from it were used in ROS. For example, Rey sabering an imperial ship, returning to Palpatine’s throne room, the Death Star wreckage underwater, DIO as a variant of BB8’s design, etc.

Samples:
https://i.imgur.com/ioTT9gl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0oPFoji.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D25CcHS.jpg

I am plenty aware of the TFA art book. But those aren’t “JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3.” They are concepts floated for TFA. Hence my comment, “he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.”

thebluefrog said:

OutboundFlight said:

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

Not even remotely true but okay.

ROS needed to be the second film–it clearly was a mishmash of his 2 and 3rd film ideas scribbled on one page, since ROS introduced so many extraneous characters…in the finale? If the 2nd film had at least followed naturally with the 1st, the new characters introduced in 2 would have natural storyarcs flow into 3, like Lando from Empire to Lando the hero in Jedi.

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

Arguably ROTS would have been a lot more interesting if they didn’t line things up to a T for ANH. The approach with TFA is clearly trying to replicate that sort of en medias res feeling you get from being dropped into the world with the original film. It’s a different approach than what some were expecting but I think it’s a valid one.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

I actually felt like there wasn’t enough world building. There was way too much exposition, but exposition and world building aren’t the same thing. World building fleshes out the movie’s universe, giving it the proper context. Exposition is an inconvenience, something the movie just needs to get out of the way.

In my opinion, a proper example of world building would be explaining the whole thing with Palpatine’s return. “Secrets only the Sith knew” isn’t a sufficient explanation. We need to know the broad strokes of how he returned, and why he can’t return again. Otherwise, it just feels like Palpatine can come back any time he wants.

That’s not quite right. Explanations aren’t necessarily world building. In fact having someone spell out how Palpatine survived is exactly what I’d call exposition, which is something that TROS tries to avoid as much as reasonably can (which is only so much).

For example, the First Order captain’s medallion is world building. Zorii saying “free passage through any blockade, landing privileges” that’s exposition.

Don’t listen to me, but the shuttle seems kinda goofy. Like he brought that whole big thing? If it were me using it I’d cut away after Ben leaves the shot and not linger on it.

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

There’s plenty of world building. Every scene adds a new element to the lore. It’s suffocating. Whether they explain how those elements make sense or not doesn’t matter.

I mean, if that’s the threshold, then every film has plenty of world building.

Well yes, they do. But TROS had too much of it.

Hal 9000 said:

I feel a little more context about what’s happening in this world when picking up the story after 30 years, and after a trilogy set in the past that gave us a great deal of context, would have gone a long way.

I don’t disagree but I feel like the impact on the story on the whole was pretty minimal, whereas some people think it broke the movies or some shit.

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

What world building was in Rise of Skywalker? Or do you mean in The Rise of Skywalker novelisation?

There’s plenty of world building. Every scene adds a new element to the lore. It’s suffocating. Whether they explain how those elements make sense or not doesn’t matter.

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

I do tend to think if they had more time to work on it they would have been able to simplify and cut it down in the scripting stage rather than the editing stage, but ultimately yes some of the choices are stupid regardless.

act on instinct said:

Yeah my feelings are it isn’t so simple as one botched opportunity, more the dam busting after a series of unchecked cracks that started to add up over time. One of the bigger complaints about TROS is the breakneck pacing, but consider all the elements unresolved from the previous two IX now had to juggle or otherwise ignore like the Knights of Ren. All while trying to balance an appropriate ending to the trilogy, the saga, and being its own movie. So for me while it’s not blameless and I do think TROS took the lazy way out, it’s a tricky situation and some of it lands on time wasted not establishing more prior when there was time to spare. “We’ll figure it out later”, then all of the sudden we’re at the finale and later became too late.

I don’t really buy that. I mean sure, there were plenty of unresolved elements, but considering TROS didn’t bother to resolve or really spend any time on most of them I don’t think that was the issue. Not to mention the film easily could have just been longer, TLJ had ten minutes on it and Endgame proved you could be 30 minutes longer than that and still make plenty of cash. No, the issue was for whatever reason JJ and Terrio felt the need to add in a million new elements out of nowhere that all needed to be set up and resolved within one movie, which is what really makes it feel so crammed (first act is full of new exposition, second act features all new revelations, third act has to wrap it all up). They shot themselves in the foot trying to outsmart themselves when they could have easily just stayed the course, so to speak.

I don’t recall Arnold saying that, at least not in his book. Regardless, whether he attended a protest or not didn’t matter, the issue with his eye meant that he was specifically advised against performing in front of stage lights.

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea that he decided to start phoning it in after he was “betrayed” or whatever. I don’t believe he was under any obligation to appear in any sequels at all.

ATMachine said:

Really? From what I’ve heard, Sir Alec didn’t really want to come back for ESB, and considered using an eye condition he had as an excuse not to resume his role. In the event, some of Obi-Wan’s lines were shifted to Yoda (as both Dale Pollock and JW Rinzler attest), and Guinness ended up filming on ESB for all of one day.

Not an excuse, it was a serious issue and they weren’t sure if he’d be able to film at all.

ATMachine said:

Peter Cushing is clearly having fun on SW in a way that Alec Guinness isn’t. Guinness a lot the time IMO is phoning it in, probably feeling like “why did I take this film, this is so cheesy, it’s so beneath me.” Whereas Hammer horror veteran Cushing is quite obviously having a blast and it shows in his performance.

Disagree completely. Obi-wan is supposed to be a serious character. Even still there are moments where you can clearly see Guinness has portrayed Ben with a good sense of humor. And he was downright furious at Lucas for killing him off and therefore cutting out some of his scenes, so I don’t buy that he thought it was beneath him. He was far too professional to “phone it in,” even in a genre film like this. Even by the time ROTJ was being worked on he was still pushing for more screen time and more stuff to do. Unfortunately he ended up just stuck on a log.

In my mind, there’s one that always comes to mind. It’s Anthony Daniels. He carries a lot of the first film and provides pitch perfect comic relief in the second, in a role that could have very easily been a disaster. And he really was a big part in establishing the 3PO personality we know, as Lucas had other plans in mind (used car salesman). Same goes for Frank Oz of course (lesser extent due to not appearing in the first film).

Cushing deserves a lot of credit for knowing exactly what film he was in and nailing it, but if you’re going the ‘veteran actor lends credibility’ route, the answer is obviously Guinness. The film doesn’t work without the gravitas he provides to Luke’s story. I think you could switch out Tarkin with a lesser actor but you can’t switch out Guiness with a lesser actor.

Ford’s skills are obvious, and of course Star Wars is nothing without the cool factor he brings. But credit due to Hamill and Fisher as well, they aren’t the best actors ever of course but they fit so well into those roles. Every time I see the audition tapes of actors they didn’t go with I’m reminded of that.

A note for the crawl, if Mustafar is to be included: saying Kylo Ren is journeying to Mustafar sets up a false expectation of what we are about to see. It kinda makes it seem like Mustafar is a real destination, rather than just a short stop on the mission. This is actually something the original crawl does well. “Rages in search…” pairs well with the montage battle, where we kinda get that we’re just like dropping in the middle of it, rather than expecting a full on scene of some sort. If that makes sense.