DominicCobb

Handman said:

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

Who’s the “Gal” that didn’t make the cover?
And, yeah, Thanos? Even if they were talkin’ all media, not just films, I still can’t see him making the list.
And Robert Patrick over Arnold?
I’m callin’ shenanigans.
It is a cool looking cover though.

If they’re taking all of film history into account (rather than just the last few decades as the cover implies), my guess would be the Wicked Witch of the West.

Ooh, good call!

It’s Nurse Ratched.

That’d’ve been my second guess.

ray_afraid said:

TM2YC said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

Does the average person trust a machine to do the driving? How hacker proof are these driverless cars? Ordinary cars with wireless connections have already been hacked into.

Warbler said:

I guess it depends when the technology will be reliable enough.

Were both exchanging posts on devices that are wide open to hacking and yet we still bought them.

Someone hacking my cell phone isn’t nearly as scary as someone hacking my car.
I don’t keep anything important in my phone. I’m in the car.

Same, I don’t keep anything important in the car either.

ray_afraid said:

Who’s the “Gal” that didn’t make the cover?
And, yeah, Thanos? Even if they were talkin’ all media, not just films, I still can’t see him making the list.
And Robert Patrick over Arnold?
I’m callin’ shenanigans.
It is a cool looking cover though.

If they’re taking all of film history into account (rather than just the last few decades as the cover implies), my guess would be the Wicked Witch of the West.

Mocata said:

I guess that’s one last item they have for EpIX - the whole helmet thing. Was it speaking literally or was it more like a dark side vision when he touched it?

I’m not sure what you mean by “the one last thing.” It’d be interesting if they go back to it but I don’t think Kylo was literally talking to it. More like a totem that helped him center himself in the dark side (like speaking to god by praying to a cross).

Ronster said:

SilverWook said:

Everybody lay off the insults then.

To be honest that what i would hope…, I found out about this edit through internet news and various cast members commenting on it with tear drops again and again.

It is a sad state of affairs… I don’t know that is why i say the 70’s 80’s and 90’s did it right now i do think there has been a loss of direction relating to “real” people which is gone further than before because it is so “fake” in a way and even though older films were still “fake” they just were not as fake as it is now. It’s pretty much completely unrelatable for a normal person to connect in a normal way…

The motivation of this edit is the big question.

You’re right, the motivation of this edit isn’t actually to make it seem more “real” (scare quotes yours). It’s to make it more like the sausage fests of yesteryear.

ChainsawAsh said:

SilverWook said:

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

In Bloodline, a recording Bail made to explain Leia’s parentage to her in case of his death is found, and one of her political opponents plays it for the entire Senate, destroying her political career.

This is also how Ben learns about his grandfather, as Leia and Han hadn’t told him yet. (He’s off training with Luke in the book, so we don’t see his reaction to the news.)

Slight correction, that’s how Leia thinks (and we presume) Ben learns the truth. We don’t have any reason to think otherwise but there’s no confirmation for sure yet that that’s how Ben learned, as we don’t get his perspective at all in the book.

ray_afraid said:

I can’t support a system that makes it impossible to score a perfect 10, even though I dunno if I’d give any film a perfect score.

I personally don’t consider 10/10 to mean “perfect,” otherwise it’s completely useless.

paja said:

This Maybe the coolist thing i have ever seen.

Thanos? Really?

What’s a metaphor again?

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?

Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.

Then you must not have seen much of them. They’ve made some silly Star Wars videos in the past few years (not the PT reviews), but most of their content is great.
They certainly know what they’re talking about while also being fans with opinions.

Well in what little I have seen they certainly acted like they knew what they were talking about at least…

Ronster said:

DominicCobb said:

Ronster said:

snooker said:

“Hope is like the sun. If you only believe it when you see it you’ll never make it through the night.”

Who wrote this trash?

Hope is something you wish will happen for the greater good and benefit others more than yourself. I.e something that will have a greater impact than just hope you passed an exam that is not really “hope” that is personal ambition.

I am glad i never went to see this. Not interested in the edit either…

Only believe the sun when you see it? Hmmmmm…

This is totally stupid at least my opinion. I will only believe a star when i see it snarf snarf (thundercats) yes this is complete stupidity.

And this bloke got given a whole trilogy as in 3 more films with this sort of dialogue… HA HA HA HA.

Amazing the stupidness is.

Who wrote this trash?

Oh right, ronster.

No mate what i wrote was not the sort of sycofantic trash that you gobble up like some sort of heroin addict.

I treat films for what they are. It does not matter if it is a franchise ora stand alone film. Actually i despise all the Marvel franchise and the best films from last year I would say was “The Witch” and “High Rise” both totally new ground covered not your run of the mill shallow churned out machine blockbuster. It’s over for me all of this crappy superficial nonsence I am most certainly done. I prefer films with some sort of substance that i can relate to as a human and even if they give a different slant on realty i can still relate to it and understand.

But i am not the person who eats popcorn and feels a desire to stuff my face relentlessly because i am watching a film. This is the truth. Read and weap if you care too…

Haha alright man. Glad we had this talk about a movie you haven’t seen.

Personally, I can handle both blockbusters and non-blockbusters just fine. I don’t feel like I have to choose only the “better” movies to make me feel smart, but that’s just me. Believe it or not you can make a quality film that’s a blockbuster, it’s actually why we’re on this site in the first place.

Ronster said:

snooker said:

“Hope is like the sun. If you only believe it when you see it you’ll never make it through the night.”

Who wrote this trash?

Hope is something you wish will happen for the greater good and benefit others more than yourself. I.e something that will have a greater impact than just hope you passed an exam that is not really “hope” that is personal ambition.

I am glad i never went to see this. Not interested in the edit either…

Only believe the sun when you see it? Hmmmmm…

This is totally stupid at least my opinion. I will only believe a star when i see it snarf snarf (thundercats) yes this is complete stupidity.

And this bloke got given a whole trilogy as in 3 more films with this sort of dialogue… HA HA HA HA.

Amazing the stupidness is.

Who wrote this trash?

Oh right, ronster.

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?

Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.

Welcome back bud.

Vladius said:

adywan said:

Vladius said:

I realize this might be an unpopular opinion here, but aside from the portrayal of Luke (which some people feel is just a matter of interpretation,) the non-Rey female characters were easily the worst parts of the film.
They have the most cringe-inducing dialogue:…“if you need to see the sun shining to know it’s there, you’ll never last through the night,” …

A line not even spoken in the film. If you are going to use quotes to prove a point about bad dialogue, at least get the quote right. That’s not even close.

You’re being needlessly pedantic and it absolutely is close.

You’re saying it’s a bad line, in which case the phrasing does matter.

SilverWook said:

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

Bloodline is that story.

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Yes, but not necessarily the specifics of Vader’s redemption. Imagine Luke arriving at the Ewok party and telling the rebels - many of whom would have lost wives and kids and friends and entire worlds to Vader and his Empire - that Vader was his Dad and that he’d turned out to be a swell guy! I mean Luke would’ve been lynched, and rightly so. It just seems to me that the only thing worthy of ‘legend’ is the notion that a Jedi named Luke Skywalker defeated Emperor Palpatine. Beyond that vague ‘fact’, Luke’s story is merely a kind of self-absorbed religious family drama rather than the stuff of legends.

Funnily enough before I wrote this post, my wife pointed out that Leia may have told Rey the specifics of Vader’s redemption just before sending Rey to meet Luke. That makes more sense to me than a legend springing from Luke’s having his butt saved by Dad who’d had a sudden change of heart (while the actual war raged outside).

I believe, canonically speaking, that Vader’s redemption is not widely known. Most likely it was assumed that Luke defeated him and the Emperor.

And yeah, I think Leia told Rey all about that. It doesn’t really make sense that she’d have learned that from anywhere else.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

I made those promises, and it didn’t work, sadly. Once you start reading through other people’s posts, it’s just too tempting to respond, and before you know it you’re walking in circles again. I guess not reading the thread at all would be a solution.

One thing that I’ve done in the past is type up a response… and then not post it.

I don’t mind reading this thread and occasionally posting in it, I just can’t keep getting into dead-end arguments.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a fundamentally different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want people to see why this is a good movie so they can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Are we counting rewatches? If so, I definitely don’t have that exact information (although most likely each year would be determined by how many times I watched Star Wars movies). If not, even though I haven’t been on Letterboxd until now, I can try to figure it out…

…at some point.

Although for 2017 it’s probably safe for me to say for director it was David Lynch. And director for 2015 was probably Hitchcock since that year I took a class on him.

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

No, honestly not that different from Luke at all. The entire mission of the Resistance up till the end of TLJ is to find Luke to bring back the Jedi and restore hope in the galaxy. Both of those are accomplished at the end of the film by Luke and his pupil, Rey. Obviously Rey is not a typical pupil, but that is part of a different point altogether.

It’s entirely different. When Luke abandoned the galaxy, the New Republic was still in full control, and the FO a rump state hiding in the unknown regions. Luke had a far more favourable position than Obi-Wan and Yoda, who were on the run of a tyrannical regime, who controlled the GFFA. Luke’s failure is in the fact, that he didn’t act to stop the FO’s rising power, and the terrible suffering that ensued. The fact that he at least helped to provide some hope of undoing his past mistakes, does not alter this fact.

If anything Obi-wan and Yoda look worse. There was an entire army of Jedi and they couldn’t stop two Sith (give or take) from taking control. When Ben burns down the temple, it’s just Luke against Snoke, Kylo, and the rest of the Knights of Ren. Not to mention you’re right, the New Republic was in full control when Luke abandoned them, which means he had already closed himself off from the Force when the First Order rose to prominence. When Rey tells Luke that the FO will control the major systems soon, it’s news to him. So in his mind he didn’t realize the need for him was as dire as it was (not to mention, of course, his belief that he wouldn’t be any help).

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

Both clone wars cartoons are amazing. Not only that, but if we’re making OT Luke a legend, then certainly PT Anakin should be a legend too. I guess he wasn’t because of the Empire, so that’s ok. Still, Luke’s legend doesn’t seem to be damaged by the FO being in power, so…

But ok, I misinterpreted your original reply. Yes, Luke was pretty brave during the OT, I’ll give you that.

I’m sorry, based on your post I thought we were only counting the films. If we count stuff outside the films then Luke’s achievements are surely more than just the Death Star, Hoth, and Jabba’s palace. And I do think Anakin was a legend (at least he was according to Red leader in that deleted scene).

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

I’ll also give you this one - that the idea of Luke Skywalker is now more powerful and inspiring than Luke himself, but that’s kind of sad to me, because I really liked his character and looked up to him.

Okay but

Not to the perfect hero, but to the hero that overcame his challenges and learned from his failures.

This describes Luke in TLJ.

Collipso said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda did everything they could to try to stop the Empire before it was too late. That on itself is already enough to distinguish them from Luke. They did everything they could, and Luke did nothing.

Did they? According to ROTS Obi-wan left Anakin alive to become Darth Vader. According to the OT… all they did was hide themselves and the babies.

Luke did do something, it’s just that his “something” was literally “nothing.” As in, he actively picked “nothing” as a solution.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

No, honestly not that different from Luke at all. The entire mission of the Resistance up till the end of TLJ is to find Luke to bring back the Jedi and restore hope in the galaxy. Both of those are accomplished at the end of the film by Luke and his pupil, Rey. Obviously Rey is not a typical pupil, but that is part of a different point altogether.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.