DominicCobb

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Valheru_84 said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZg

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/index.html

I really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.

It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.

Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.

I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, theu argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately used Lucas’ recipe and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.

Brilliant.

+1

-1, net result no impact.

Show me a star wars movie that hasn’t recycled star wars tropes. I don’t know why that is such a turn off.

Every Star Wars movie before the ST has provided plenty of new story threads, and new visuals. The ST is unique in the sense that it (IMO delibirately) recycles complete plot sequences, story structure and visuals. All sequels and prequels made by Lucas contained new stories. They were not loose remakes of the previous films. While for TLJ it’s less obvious than for TFA, there’s no denying TLJ’s story structure echos TESB’s, while it also incorporates entire story sequences from the OT, such as the battle of Hoth, albeit with a twist, and the ROTJ throne room sequence, again with a twist.

the ST has provided plenty of new story threads a new visuals too, or are claiming it didn’t?

Some new story threads yes, but compared to previous entries far too little IMO.

You try to cover way too much with your ‘but with a twist’ argument. Only those who want to agree with you accept that argument.

Not at all. Much of TLJ is based on the premise to rethread OT story threads, but to then “surprise” people with a twist. There are very few original story lines not in some way based on the OT. The most obvious original story line is the Canto Bight sequence, which is widely considered the movie’s weakest part, since it is pointless to the overall plot.

You can’t just dismiss the canto bight sequence as pointless… not sure i need to rethread that discussion though. Back out of this thread again for me…

Samesies.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Valheru_84 said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZg

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/index.html

I really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.

It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.

Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.

I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, theu argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately used Lucas’ recipe and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.

Brilliant.

+1

-1, net result no impact.

Show me a star wars movie that hasn’t recycled star wars tropes. I don’t know why that is such a turn off.

Every Star Wars movie before the ST has provided plenty of new story threads, and new visuals. The ST is unique in the sense that it (IMO delibirately) recycles complete plot sequences, story structure and visuals. All sequels and prequels made by Lucas contained new stories. They were not loose remakes of the previous films. While for TLJ it’s less obvious than for TFA, there’s no denying TLJ’s story structure echos TESB’s, while it also incorporates entire story sequences from the OT, such as the battle of Hoth, albeit with a twist, and the ROTJ throne room sequence, again with a twist.

the ST has provided plenty of new story threads a new visuals too

Nah but there are X-wings and some of the plot points are vaguely similar.

oojason said:

Valheru_84 said:

View at own risk of wanting to eye gouge yourself…

https://youtu.be/lg_FoEy8T_A

Requires a NSFW (not safe for watching) tag that mate - and you may need one of these for after…

How many times do we think that video has been shared here? Double digits? Triple digits? Never gets any better.

TV’s Frink said:

I watched 15 minutes of Tropic Thunder this morning and gave up.

The divorce papers are on their way.

TV’s Frink said:

All of it?

I know it’s a parody but at some point I’m just watching jokes about fat suits and farts, hands blown off completely, etc. Maybe it gets better but I got tired of waiting. Switched to the start of Spotlight and it was a relief.

Those are things from movies within the movie. They’re supposed to be stupid and ridiculous.

Also,

Story =/= Plot

(I feel like I should make this my signature so I don’t have to keep saying it)

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZg

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/index.html

I really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.

It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.

Neither am I 😉.

Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.

I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, they argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent most of the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately stuck to Lucas’ old recipe, and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe in many respects, while altering a few key aspects of Lucas’ recipe for the worse, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.

I think Lucas was more than simply “influenced.” I don’t have a problem with not calling the original Star Wars original because I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s still my favorite film after all.

I’d just argue that no SW film since the first has had the same “new and original recipe,” including ESB and ROTJ. Their “recipes” are firmly rooted in what was done in the previous film(s). Same with the ST, only there’ve been more previous films. Are the tropes that the ST is pulling from SW tropes? Absolutely, you’ve nailed that that’s how I see it. And again, to me that just makes sense, it seems a natural extension of the franchise at this point in time (it only seems fitting for these films to be influenced by what came before, just like Lucas, only now what’s come before are SW movies - films which have had an enormous impact on cinema in general and this genre of storytelling specifically).

Mrebo said:

No need to quibble over the precise level of distraction. Maybe less than Leia being blonde and more than her brunette hair being slightly darker. I still don’t see the validity of the reason for the aesthetic choice that is noticeable.

They probably figured most people wouldn’t care, which is almost certainly true.

He is ghostly though, just not as much. A better analogy would be if Leia had the same hair color, but it was just slightly darker. As in, barely distracting at all.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Cool dude.

I wasn’t talking about you, Dom.

I wasn’t talking to you either… unless… Collispo is darthrush sock confirmed?

Cool dude.

Ok man

DrDre said:

Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.

I disagree, that the PT designs were a problem. My issues with the PT is how these designs were used. The then state of the art CGI made these designs seem less tangible, and the PT world thus often seemed cartoony. However, aside from the fact that Lucas crammed too much stuff in a frame, I think the designs were one of the best parts of the PT.

The PT, which is set between 32 and 19 years before SW (not that much time), look basically like a different film series altogether. That’s not a good thing, in my opinion.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.

Borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original is not the same as borrowing heavily from previous Star Wars films both visually and narratively to create another Star Wars film.

Except the ST is literally “borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original.” Just that some of the other works of fiction are Star Wars movies, which just makes sense considering there are other Star Wars movies that exist.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

More Tie fighters, X-wings, and Star Destroyers, not really original in my view. I guess we’ve never seen a black X-wing before. The ST represents a slightly more modern take on the OT, but very little in these films is not some variation of OT story threads, aesthetics, and designs. So, in my view the visual and auditory experience is anything but original.

You listed three designs out of thousands. That’s incredibly reductive. Not to mention SW was creating a new universe, whereas the ST is creating within an existing universe. Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

Nope.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

Unique =/= original.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

Star Wars is at least 40% Hidden Fortress. Star Wars was literally built as a combination of a bunch of different preexisting stories. Hate to break it to you, but it’s true. Some of us appreciate it for doing that, rather than pretending it was the most original story ever.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

I will speak for myself. I’ve seen a lot of movies, I know what I like. Originality levels are essentially arbitrary. Nothing is original. There are far more important things to judge the quality of a movie by. TFA and TLJ are good stories told well. Just because some plot beats are vaguely similar to other movies doesn’t make them worse. Neither does the fact that they have the same aesthetic as other movies in the same series (I don’t know how this is even a criticism).

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.

Darth Lucas said:

DominicCobb said:

Telion said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Editing / jumps between the three sequences of ROTJ’s climax.

I recently listened to a Rian Johnson podcast where he spoke about editing TLJ

Why would you use TLJ as a source for editing tips? I don’t want this to turn into a slag off session of TLJ but apart of some question plot decisions (Leia flying), the editing department was what really let the movie down.
Now I liked the climactic battle between Ray, Kylo and the guards but I hated that every time I got invested in it, it cut away. If you are going to cut from a tense moment, it’s best to cut to another tense moment and keep going back and forth regularly to give a sense of urgency. Other wise you should leave it to play out in full, but that is less effective if the situation is meant to be a climax, as it makes it makes it appear to happen sequentially rather than concurrently.

Oh my god, thanks so much for your valuable insight. What would adywan have done without you? Thought that TLJ was good? Try to change ROTJ to be better? You’re a real hero!

The rude sarcasm seems a bit uncalled for.

Agree to disagree!

This just doesn’t seem the thread for someone’s hot takes on a movie that isn’t the movie being discussed here.

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

Originality is overrated. In reality it actually has little to do with quality. Just because a movie has similarities to another movie doesn’t mean it has “real flaws.” It’s as cheap a kind of film criticism as pointing out plot holes and continuity errors - very basic and surface level. If movies were actually judged by originality then a lot of classic movies would be widely considered flawed too (for example, the works of Tarantino, also a little movie called Star Wars).

Telion said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Editing / jumps between the three sequences of ROTJ’s climax.

I recently listened to a Rian Johnson podcast where he spoke about editing TLJ

Why would you use TLJ as a source for editing tips? I don’t want this to turn into a slag off session of TLJ but apart of some question plot decisions (Leia flying), the editing department was what really let the movie down.
Now I liked the climactic battle between Ray, Kylo and the guards but I hated that every time I got invested in it, it cut away. If you are going to cut from a tense moment, it’s best to cut to another tense moment and keep going back and forth regularly to give a sense of urgency. Other wise you should leave it to play out in full, but that is less effective if the situation is meant to be a climax, as it makes it makes it appear to happen sequentially rather than concurrently.

Oh my god, thanks so much for your valuable insight. What would adywan have done without you? Thought that TLJ was good? Try to change ROTJ to be better? You’re a real hero!

SteveE said:

Good interview with JJ above, but I cannot help but think all these theories of alt right groups lowering the score on Rotten Tomatoes is a bunch of tosh.
The film wasnt hated by a large section of fans because it had too many women in prominent roles - what a silly thing to get upset about.

I agree it wasn’t that large (definitely a minority) but there still was a significant amount who hated it for those reasons.

Instead I believe that fans got upset with the same things that bewildered me…lack of consistent tone, pissing over all the good work from The Force Awakens, making Luke wanna murder his nephew and over the top comedy - the same comedy that was originally in ANH but the editors saw fit to remove.

Funny you say it pissed over the good work of TFA in response to the director of TFA defending it. I’ll just say that mindset makes no sense.

As for your comments on ANH, I must say you are mistaken, that’s simply not at all true.

LexX said:

If images of just Luke’s face from TLJ are removed days AFTER TLJ is released in other threads, I’m assuming the mods will use the same policies in their own postings.

Edit: and I had not seen the Falcon or whatever it is that close before that image.

Hmm…

oojason said:

a really good TLJ poster…

^ by shin_o at https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/6r41uw/i_made_a_poster_for_the_last_jedi/

Well there is a story in the ST, and it is one that hasn’t been told.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Okay so now you actually are saying that. Jesus

Both are absolutely pointless to the OT, much like TESB is pointless to SW.

Okay, I was going to say, what’s to say ESB isn’t pointless.

The difference between the PT and the ST is that there was a story to tell in the PT, and there’s no story left to be told after RotJ. If they don’t really expand every aspect of the universe and make it interesting that is, like TESB, which they did to an extent, even if rehashing the OT to a large degree.

So the ST is more pointless than the PT but of course better.

I still don’t follow (and I strongly disagree that there’s no story to tell after ROTJ, which is an absurd statement). How is the PT adding anything by telling a story we already know?

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of the first one, though it isn’t bad for a found footage style movie.

Yep

Lane would, in fact, have been better with a very different last 5-10 minutes, but that doesn’t completely invalidate the superb psychological thriller the rest of the movie is.

Yep

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/

Good interview with Abrams.