DominicCobb

No one is perfect, and therefore it’s not necessarily reasonable to expect a character to make all around perfect decisions (as FilmCritHulk points out, there’d be no conflict if so). There’s obviously supposed to be an air of suspicion around Holdo at first, which is why we question her decisions and don’t see her perspective and decision-making (only Poe’s). In the end, we learn her heart and mind were in the right place, and her plan would’ve worked just fine if not for Poe.

As for why she didn’t lock up Poe, I don’t think it’s illogical at all to think “I don’t want this guy in on decisions or on the bridge, but I don’t think going as far as literally jailing him is necessary, especially when his biggest crime was disobeying one order and yelling at me.” Not sure why it’s a binary “either tell him the plan or lock him up,” that’s doesn’t sound like the only acceptable logic to me at all. Holdo didn’t trust Poe with the plan. That doesn’t seem crazy to me. Her biggest mistake was actually underestimating how little she should trust him. Again, not perfect, but there’d be no conflict if she was.

As for the logic of her plan, I don’t think we need to have that endless debate either. I don’t know if if it’s Cinemasins or just years of nerd porn EU books misleading a certain generation of fans to think this is a hard sci-fi franchise, but for some reason people love to nitpick the “logic” of these things to death as if the main determiner of a film’s quality is the “realism” of its wiki plot summary. I’ll just say what I always say: cinema (and fantasy and Star Wars in particular) is about the possible. It’s just as easy to come up with a reason to explain away these perceived “plot holes” as it is to claim they’re “impossible” to explain and therefore movie-breaking. I don’t think it’s worth it to worry or waste time with the latter.

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

i disagree with pretty much everything you have said about everything since your first post in the thread you first posted in.

Oh really? Are you sure you don’t want to find working download links for Hal9000’s first ROTS edit from 10 years ago where he only changed like three things about it?

Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

I fail to see why her actions are illogical (or “throw the universe into chaos” haha okay), in or out of the world of the film, but whatever, you do you. You seem to be doing exactly what Hulk is suggesting, only accepting ‘what you would do’ as correct, and everything else as plot hole, whether it makes sense for the characters or not.

Is Star Wars catering with grills now?

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

Yet logic used in stories is like grammar used in poetry. We can forgive poetic license, since it serves a purpose, but in general the words should adhere to some grammatical structure (logic) to make sense. The existence of poetic license should not be used as a free pass for a poor grasp of grammar.

There is in story “logic,” and there is out of story real world logic, which may or may not even apply to the story depending on the complaint.

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

paja said:

God that scene is great.

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Handman said:

I missed out on TMNT. I never understood the appeal, but I knew a few kids who loved them. I’m surprised it’s still a thing. That and Power Rangers.

Pretty much same.

snooker said:

Random thoughts:

Would the ‘Asteroid Field’ from the ESB soundtrack work during Obi-Wan vs Jango in the asteroid field? Or does that song only work with the falcon?

I think that scene works pretty well without music.

Would Tie Fighter Attack work anywhere, either?

I have a spot for it in my AOTC edit.

JEDIT:

I remember an older version of the “New Canon Cut” of Ep 3 having ‘Luke and Leia’ playing over the birth of the twins and it sounded pretty rad.

Interesting.

Handman said:

It’s the only Michael Bay film to get a Criterion release.

Armageddon too.

But yes, The Rock is good (and I have that DVD).

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

I also finally finished the season, but with a different reaction. While I had some issues with the finale, on the whole I thought the second season was better than the first (which I loved). I’m now fully willing to call this my favorite show on TV.

Very excited to see where it goes next.

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

pittrek said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

m_s0 said:

Meanwhile, in Discovery news:

https://deadline.com/2018/06/star-trek-discovery-james-duff-joins-executive-producer-overall-deal-jenny-lumet-olatunde-osunsanmi-promoted-1202419818/

EXCLUSIVE: The Closer creator James Duff has joined CBS All Access’ Star Trek: Discovery as executive producer. It is part of an overall development deal he has signed with series producer CBS TV Studios.

Additionally, writer Jenny Lumet (Rachel Getting Married), who joined the series as a consulting producer at the start of Season 2, has been promoted to co-executive producer. Co-executive producer Olatunde Osunsanmi has been upped to executive producer and will serve as the series’ producer/director based on set in Toronto.

Yes, let’s bring more people in who are in no way veterans of the franchise or know what makes Trek feel like Trek.

That’s ridiculous. Only people who are Trek veterans are allowed to work on Trek? Come on.

Well having SOME people who understand Star Trek on board would be nice

You don’t have to be a veteran to “get” Star Trek.

Also, I don’t think the show’s main issue is “not getting Star Trek.”

What would you say the main issue is?

Subpar writing in general.

pittrek said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

m_s0 said:

Meanwhile, in Discovery news:

https://deadline.com/2018/06/star-trek-discovery-james-duff-joins-executive-producer-overall-deal-jenny-lumet-olatunde-osunsanmi-promoted-1202419818/

EXCLUSIVE: The Closer creator James Duff has joined CBS All Access’ Star Trek: Discovery as executive producer. It is part of an overall development deal he has signed with series producer CBS TV Studios.

Additionally, writer Jenny Lumet (Rachel Getting Married), who joined the series as a consulting producer at the start of Season 2, has been promoted to co-executive producer. Co-executive producer Olatunde Osunsanmi has been upped to executive producer and will serve as the series’ producer/director based on set in Toronto.

Yes, let’s bring more people in who are in no way veterans of the franchise or know what makes Trek feel like Trek.

That’s ridiculous. Only people who are Trek veterans are allowed to work on Trek? Come on.

Well having SOME people who understand Star Trek on board would be nice

You don’t have to be a veteran to “get” Star Trek.

Also, I don’t think the show’s main issue is “not getting Star Trek.”

Collipso said:

well, if characters were to survive after an explosion and getting sucked to space, space battles would have no tension at all. not when force users are the pilots at least.

Of course there’s still tension, the same way there’s tension in an Earthly aerial dogfight. If your fighter explodes, you’re likely not making it. If you are lucky enough to make it out alive, even if you’re a force user, there’s still the danger of a battle still on going, and where exactly you’re going to go to save yourself.

i do recall a clone wars episode where plo koon and three clones survive outisde for a very short period of time - and they explicitly say that plo koon survives because of the mask he uses and that the clones survive because of their armor.

They’re out there for quite awhile with no issue. Interesting that they don’t implode or whatever people think happen.

and the kanan example shared above lasts for basically 5-10 seconds, and you can clearly see that he was almost, well, freezing to death already. i was under the impression leia was floating in space for a couple of minutes at least.

Don’t think it was that long for Leia. Also notice that Kanan is back on his feet immediately, while Leia is in a coma for most of the rest of the film.

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t think Disney is worrying even a microscopic bit about their investment. If they haven’t already recouped the $4bil, they will soon, or at the very least at some point in the next hundred years (hint, it won’t take more than a couple more years at most if it hasn’t happened already).

yeah, i doubt they are having buyers remorse. I mean, there is so much more to owning a property like star wars than just movies (Which are doing just fine). The theme park tie-in’s haven’t even opened (have they?), and our family just bought us some awesome personalized star wars merch for our son, so yeah, overpriced merch is still around 😃

And it’s not just Star Wars, they have a new Indiana Jones coming out in a couple years too.

Solo failure or not, Disney probably still feels lucky it was only $4bil.

Collipso said:

yeah but when people get sucked into space after an explosion in Star Wars, they die.

There’s literally only one example of this in the films (ROTS) an that is not what happens. You’re making up a rule that doesn’t exist.

I don’t think Disney is worrying even a microscopic bit about their investment. If they haven’t already recouped the $4bil, they will soon, or at the very least at some point in the next hundred years (hint, it won’t take more than a couple more years at most if it hasn’t happened already).

chyron8472 said:

m_s0 said:

Meanwhile, in Discovery news:

https://deadline.com/2018/06/star-trek-discovery-james-duff-joins-executive-producer-overall-deal-jenny-lumet-olatunde-osunsanmi-promoted-1202419818/

EXCLUSIVE: The Closer creator James Duff has joined CBS All Access’ Star Trek: Discovery as executive producer. It is part of an overall development deal he has signed with series producer CBS TV Studios.

Additionally, writer Jenny Lumet (Rachel Getting Married), who joined the series as a consulting producer at the start of Season 2, has been promoted to co-executive producer. Co-executive producer Olatunde Osunsanmi has been upped to executive producer and will serve as the series’ producer/director based on set in Toronto.

Yes, let’s bring more people in who are in no way veterans of the franchise or know what makes Trek feel like Trek.

That’s ridiculous. Only people who are Trek veterans are allowed to work on Trek? Come on.

ChainsawAsh said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

TV’s Frink said:

NBC had a couple of great “Must See TV” Thursday lineups.

The Cosby Show / Family Ties / Cheers / Night Court
Mad About You / Wings / Seinfeld / Frasier

Friends / Seinfeld was hard to beat but there were never good shows in the other two slots.

You’re forgetting The Office / Parks and Recreation / 30 Rock / Community. Best comedy lineup of the last decade.

They still have the best comedy line up on network TV right now (though that’s a very low bar) because of The Good Place and Superstore.

They’ll be adding Brooklyn Nine Nine to that lineup soon! Haven’t seen Superstore though, how is it?

Yeah I’ve finally started watching B99 and it is good. Superstore is pretty consistently funny and would definitely recommend.

I’m sorry to say though that I’ve seen the pilots for the new NBC comedies this Fall and they are not great.

DuracellEnergizer said:

TV’s Frink said:

Sure.

Shucks, Frink — you’re right. After all, a movie featuring

1. Undead women with damaged, decaying bodies
2. Charred, smoking corpses
3. Creepy, crying nuns who glide rather than walk

isn’t the least bit macabre. That’s just typical family fare.

Just because a movie features those elements doesn’t make it horror. It’s never played for scares, always for laughs.

I also don’t remember any charred and/or smoking corpses.

ChainsawAsh said:

TV’s Frink said:

NBC had a couple of great “Must See TV” Thursday lineups.

The Cosby Show / Family Ties / Cheers / Night Court
Mad About You / Wings / Seinfeld / Frasier

Friends / Seinfeld was hard to beat but there were never good shows in the other two slots.

You’re forgetting The Office / Parks and Recreation / 30 Rock / Community. Best comedy lineup of the last decade.

They still have the best comedy line up on network TV right now (though that’s a very low bar) because of The Good Place and Superstore.

TV’s Frink said:

Death Becomes Her? Really?

Just saw it recently. Not sure how it qualifies.

Off the top of my head, besides what’s been mentioned, I’d say the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre.