Regarding this example, it made me think for a while. It's hard to say how justifiable it would be, as they were clearly fighting to save their own lifes. I belive that, on this case, the whole action was beyond the violence/non-violence issue. Imagine that the pilots were unconscious, wouldn't the passengers do something as well? Regardless of what is imposing the threat, they did the one action they had in mind, stopping the plane from crashing.
Wait a minute. They may have originally been fighting to save their own lives, but eventually there is the point where all they can do is prevent the plane from killing anyone else, which is what they did. Transcripts of some of the phone calls showed they had no illusions they were going to survive.
Think for a while. Imagine an hypothetic country that never, ever atacks any country, unless it is being atacked (and NO this country does NOT exist in real world). It is not too hard to imagine why would a country have such a policy, right? I mean, most of us here would actually have that policy. We would rule our own countries this way, right? And yet, why dosen't every country do that? Mind their own business, being friendly with other nations, getting busy with their own things instead of trying to overcome the world and do harmful things to its own people or any other people? Why would anyone be a tyrant, a blood-shedding ruler?
There are evil people in the world Ric. And I believe that it is more noble to fight for others than for oneself. America was not being attacked by Germany, so would you by this standard condemn their involvement in WW2 in Europe? After all, only Japan directly attacked us.
Peace is teorically possible, there is nothing forcing us to be violent. What is it then? Money? Quest for power? And for what? Don't you guys agree that it is possible to make sure we have countries that only do good? How do we acomplish that? One way could be by killing all the evil doers who are currently in power. Hitler, Saddam, Stalin, Idi Amin Dada (which was ignored by the world but oh well) all those bad guys. Kill em all. Get an army, move into the country, depose the tyrant and install a democratic regime.
Realisticially this isn't possible. Military resources spread too thin are doomed to failure too.
Oh but wait. You guys said that there will always be a Hitler being born in a sea of Gandhis. The human kind will never be pure. So, by killing those, you are only bringing violence into the world, but making these "nails" shorter, not ever completely cut. It's a strategy, and a valid one if you think about it. But not 100% effective, and guaranteed to bring death and pain to the whole world.
What's your point. All this hypothetical nonsense has nothing to do with the real world we live in where most of the UN nations on the human rights commisssion are nations with horrible track records in human rights. THAT is the kind of world we live in Ric. We need solutions that work HERE, not in a hypothetical world.
My idea is to focus on peace. That's why I always speak against companies that profit from war, countries and leaders who do the same, and fundamentalist leaders who use religion in order to get their personal agenda done
Hence, the Islamofacisists united against America.
My idea is to BELIVE we can achieve the hypothetical country, and prevent the evil doers from getting into power in first place, by making sure its people is educated and independent enough to diplomatic fight those.
But how do we prevent this? No one man controls the political system of the world, Ric, and God help us if one ever did! Your system would essentially require a set of Dragon Balls or a nifty genie.
Take the rise of the nazi germany. Most Germans back then were iliterate and starving, with their own pride hurt by a previous violence act, which, to THEM, would justify their war. We can avoid this kind of situations we we FOCUS our minds on peace.
Excactly. World War I and it's aftermath is the object lesson in how NOT to treat a country after defeating it in a War. I agree with this part of your argument.
Taking the analogy of countries and leaders, the same can be done to people. We can prevent violence on tough neighborhoods on our cities, can't we? And some had some progress, take New York City as an example. Isn't it possible to build a better world, no matter how big or small this "world" is? FOCUS on peace.
Again, the only control we have over OTHER nations is either through the worthless and innefectual UN, or through diplomatic or military action. And "Peace" is a non word in places like North Korea and Iran.
So, back to the example you gave, of that 9-11 flight. Could it be justifiable, under those circustances? Maybe. Hard to think of what Gandhi or Jesus would do in such situation. Probably try to negociate or reason.
Gandhi would tell everyone that they should just allow themselves to die. I can't speak for what Jesus would do, but his options are pretty much infinite. If he wanted them all to live, he could just teleport them off the plain.
Could they be successful? Maybe, maybe not.
Definitely not. Negotiation with people who want to kill you and as many others as possible isn't possible.
Was violence successful on that case? Partially, but they were not able to save their own lifes.
Hey, they did the best they could with what they had, and they are remembered as heroes. Everyone else on all the other plains are victims. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to be remembered a hero.
But what I want to focus is not on that particular moment in history, but on ALL the moments that culminated on that morning of september 11, 2001. On why the situation escalated into that, and how can we focus on PEACE from now on, so things like that don't happen in the future. And I'm sorry to say that by making wars we will NEVER achieve success.
Yes, Ric. Let's give the terrorists what they want. Let's let them drive America out of the Middle East when our intentions there are purely commercial and not in any way malevolent. Let us stand by as they bomb, shell, and shoot Israeli's until they flee their ancestral homeland or die. Let's let them treat their women like slaves and their children like weapons.
On second thought, no. Let's not. You think I'm being extreme? Well think about it. Negotiation is giving them some of what they want. But what they want is the DESTRUCTION of people, property, and a way of life. Those things are NOT on my bargaining table, and I think most sane people would agree!
We might as well be doomned, and frankly, the whole situation bring me to consider that a worldwide suicide is the solution
Well, great, Ric. Let's all go cry about it and pop some cyanide pills. Ugh. Give me a break and either get over it, or stop thinking about it.
But since I have hope on what I belive is right, I'll keep fighting for it. Not with my fists, but with my words and acts.
