“for over a thousand generations the jedi knights were the guardians of piece and justice in the old Republic.”
It does seem to imply that the Republic lived that long but according to Canon and EU that is not the case.
According to EU, the republic had been around for more than 1000 years. KOTOR is 4000 years BBY.
The republic was established a 1000 years before TPM.
“There hasn’t been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic”-AOTC
This new series of movies starts 400 years before TPMWhere is the “war” in this Star War?
PS: pardon my pessimism.
Wasn’t the republic established 1000 generations (roughly 20,000 years) before A New Hope? I guess that would mean KOTOR technically creates a continuity error, as it depicts full scale wars 4000 years before Episode 1.
They are junk speeders and falling apart. The weapon is about to blast a whole in the very thick door and Finn is trying to fly down the barrel. His ship starts disintegrating around him and his weapons are destroyed. It took no brain power for me to understand Finn was going to kill himself and do no damage the first time I saw it. Nothing needs to be added or explained. None of it is fan theory. The movie properly shows us what we need instead of giving us a boring speech to lay it out. Show don’t tell is basic writing 101.
I disagree. It’s not made clear at all that his sacrifice would have had no effect. But I don’t think it matters. Either way, Rose’s point remains the same.
The first time I saw it, it seemed clear that he had a pretty good chance to destroy it. The front of the cannon is probably the weakest point.
I agree that it’s goofy and dumb, but on my second viewing it became clear that the dude who killed Rey’s parents is the one who forged the knife, Sith runes and weird wreckage skyline and all, and that it was not some ancient artifact that completely coincidentally pointed to a certain spot in a wreck that didn’t exist 35 years ago, which was the impression I got the first time.
I still don’t get why Ochi left the wayfinder in the wreckage. He put all the navigation information into D-O, so we know he had the wayfinder at some point. Maybe he got it from a different wayfinder? I dunno.
Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.
The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.
It’s goofy and dumb because the dagger has no reason to exist. The tides are a very minor point. It seems like the wreckage would shift over time, due to a large part of it being flooded, but I suppose the dagger could have been made just a couple decades ago. But I’m still wondering who made it, and why they shaped it to match the skyline of the wreckage. It’s goofy and dumb because if Rey had been standing a bit closer to shore, or a few yards to the right, the dagger would have been useless.
I like the Sith troopers. Kinda wish there was a scene where they demonstrated some Force abilities.
McDiarmid’s performance is great.
I liked seeing Mustafar again. It was neat to see another part of the planet.
Again, the big problem with devoting so much time and energy to a lot of these little fiddly details in the plotting is that even if those questions were answered satisfactorily within the narrative - it still wouldn’t be a good movie, would it?
If I put together a 1000 piece puzzle perfectly, but the picture I assemble with no missing pieces is of a broken mirror reflecting a junk-strewn yard… does it matter that all these fiddly details are there and accounted for?
the only notion I want to push back a little on in this ongoing discussion is that there are somehow ironclad “Star Wars Specific” rules that got broken here, and there aren’t, really. There are plenty of storytelling and filmmaking mistakes, and the normal sorts of things that happen to make ANY movie mediocre and uninteresting to sit through, but I don’t think most of The Rise of Skywalkers’ sins are specifically Star Wars related, and I don’t think if many of these grievances had been fixed prior to release, the reception would have been markedly different.
Star Wars tends to break its own “rules” with every movie anyway, and that’s good, honestly. They’re completely made up in the first place. So long as you can cleverly break them, with satisfactorily emotional results (even if the result is as surface level as “whoa, cool!”) then breaking “Star Wars” rules isn’t a big problem at all. Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.
I’m the first to agree that plot holes are usually the least important things to consider when evaluating a film. I generally focus more on the themes and the characters in the movie. The topic at hand was the things in the plot that don’t make sense, so that’s what my post was focused on. I have a number of other issues with this film regarding the tone, pacing, character arcs, dialogue, humor, and themes. So yes, even if the plot was more logical, it still wouldn’t make this a good movie.
But I still think it’s problem when you have so many vague and unexplained things in the story that the film becomes confusing.
You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉
You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.
That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.
The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.
Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.
Need I answer every question? Ok…
Palpatine has a Sith Cult caring for him. I would imagine this same cult brought him from the Death Star (which we can see survived in part).
Palpatine has the Empire’s resources while he as building the fleet. Probably with the intention of using them for the Empire before it died. The First Order was the remnants of Imperial Officers in the unknown regions, they didn’t have the same resources.
The fleet might be big but it has a skeleton crew. Hence the need to leave by transmitter. This wasn’t a problem when there weren’t x-wings attacking.
Physics has never mattered before: the Death Star can explode in any which way it wants.
The dagger seems to have been a route for Ochi to reach Exogel. This makes sense because how else would be reach the hidden planet. Stuff like this shouldn’t be explained in flashbacks. It diminishes the story’s focus.
Hux dislikes Ren. He wants him to lose power so he can take over. This is clearly established throughout the trilogy.
The point of this isn’t to answer random plot holes but to show the story is logical, it just requires a great deal of thinking and filling in blanks afterwards. The pacing is rushed to tell the full narrative. This fine by me if it means telling a more engaging story. No one wants to suddenly dive into a wookiepedia article as Palpatine explains all his friends on Kuat Drive Yards, which then have no relevance to the plot. What matters is he’s back and the galaxy needs to stop him.
2 & 3. Again, it’s vague and sloppy, and everybody seems to have different interpretations because none of it is clear. You’re saying they had the resources of the entire empire to build the fleet. Other people seem to think they only have the resources of one planet. My thinking is that they can’t have all the resources of the empire, since the empire was defeated in ROTJ. The visual dictionary offers a somewhat logical explanation about ships secretly delivering parts, but if that’s true, I don’t see why the fleet would be reliant on a navigational beacon to leave the planet. They can build hundreds of Death Star lasers, but they can’t put navigation computers on the ships? Clearly all the transports bringing supplies had the capability to navigate all the cosmic hazards surrounding Exegol, so it seems like it would be easy to transfer that capability to the Star destroyers. Rey sends the data from the holochron to the rebels and they send it to all the ships that show up at the end. They all leave the planet with no issues. Since the Sith eternal already have this navigation data, by the movie’s own rules, it should be super easy to just enter it into the computers on the ships.
I also don’t get the point of all the secrecy. The First Order rose from empire loyalists who were already loyal to Palpatine. Ben Solo was a Vader fanboy, you think he’d be overjoyed to find out he was serving Palpatine.
The explosion was so huge, it looked like the largest pieces would be the size of city blocks. The piece we see in the ocean is so huge, the equatorial trench and part of the dish are still intact. We literally saw the dish while it exploded, and none of the pieces flying off were big enough to match the piece we see in the ocean.
So you think Palpatine made the dagger? I thought Ochi went to Exegol to speak to Palpatine before killing Rey’s parents? Why wouldn’t he have the holochron with him? Wouldn’t he need it on his ship to get to Exegol? Still doesn’t explain why the dagger is shaped to match the skyline of the wreckage. Wreckage which is probably shifting over time. Why doesn’t Palpatine just say “find my throne room in the wreckage. The holochron’s in there.” Why even bother with the dagger?
Hux doesn’t need to save Poe and Finn. He can let them be killed and he can continue to send info to the resistance. It’s just there to be a cheap twist and a way for the heroes to escape, but it doesn’t really make sense when you think about it.
I remembered a few more: Rey flies the X-wing despite it being submerged underwater for years. Palpatine’s force lightning is now powerful enough to take out an entire fleet. Why does he even need Star Destroyers? Why does he tell Kylo to kill Rey if he was planning on taking her body? How does Rey hear the voices of all those Jedi if, canonically, the only Jedis who could become Force ghosts are Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, and Leia? Why does Rey remember seeing Ochi’s ship leave Jakku? I thought the ship in the flashback was leaving her behind. Did Ochi put her on Jakku? I thought Ochi was supposed to kill her.
I’m hoping this doesn’t end with them finding Yoda’s homeworld.
You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉
You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.
That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.
The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.
Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.
There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.
It just doesn’t make any sense.
Nope. Neither does the dagger.
I haven’t heard this come up, but if the Sith could muster “the largest fleet the galaxy has ever known” with full compliment seemingly from the resources of their own little planet, then why didn’t they do that pre-TPM? Why did the Sith need to carefully infiltrate the existing government and pull strings to secure an army? Couldn’t they have just taken over the galaxy by military force as TLJ implies the First Order was in the process of doing before Palpatine appeared and declared the First Order basically pointless?
I was confused about this as well. According to the visual dictionary for TROS, the Sith fleet was manufactured by Kuat shipyards. Apparently some of the Sith cultists worked at Kuat engineering and smuggled parts to Exegol. This kinda makes sense, though I don’t get why the fleet can’t navigate from Exegol despite all these ships going back and forth for 35 years, delivering parts.
Building more and more Death Stars is logical within the Star Wars universe, but it doesn’t make for good storytelling. It just makes the movies feel repetitive and uninspired.
Strange that something like Captain America seemed to have underperformed by modern standards.
As for TROS I guess some word of mouth has kept it going?
Captain America was a lot more popular after the Avengers movie
Yeah but you can’t reverse engineer box office takings.
Not sure what you mean.
Strange that something like Captain America seemed to have underperformed by modern standards.
As for TROS I guess some word of mouth has kept it going?
Captain America was a lot more popular after the Avengers movie
Oh boy, young Yoda! Just what I’ve always wanted.
My 28 year old coworker mentioned that she hasn’t seen Star Wars very many times, and wants to do a marathon, but has never seen the theatrical versions. Needless to say, I made her a copy of the despecialized editions on blu ray. Thanks again, Harmy!
“Sheev” is Palpatine’s first name. That detail was one of Lucas’ last contributions to the lore, IIRC.
I just find weird that we call him palpatine at all. He is darth sidious.
It’s not wise to call him Darth Sidious on this forum.
Why? This site is called originaltrilogy.com, not prequelhaters.com, or sequelhaters.com. As for any forum, there will be those, that like the PT, and/or ST, and those that don’t, but let’s not even begin to push the idea, that some opinions on the films are more valid than others, or that we should censor ourselves to pacify some vocal hard line segment of the membership on this forum.
I was only joking.
“Sheev” is Palpatine’s first name. That detail was one of Lucas’ last contributions to the lore, IIRC.
I just find weird that we call him palpatine at all. He is darth sidious.
It’s not wise to call him Darth Sidious on this forum.
My head canon is the Force teleportation ability is something only Rey and Kylo can do, as they are a super rare Force diad. I also like to think only they and members of Yoda’s species can use Force healing.
I hope to see everyone shut up about an Abrams cut (not you guys, I mean everyone on social media).
I hope someday Lucas’s treatments do come out, I’d be curious. But knowing his past writing processes (on the OT and PT), it’s more likely than not that his treatments were pretty short and vague. More importantly, even if Lucas himself had made the films he would have certainly changed the story of his treatments significantly over the course of time. So the idea that they should have chained themselves to those treatments just because they had Lucas’s name on them is monumentally silly.
More importantly, the idea that evil will always return is “nihilistic” is ridiculous. It’s just factually true. The idea that evil can be defeated once and for all is pretty naive. It works for a fairy tale yes, but Star Wars has been becoming less and less a fairy tale with each new entry. The idea that evil will always return is sophisticated and nuanced (perhaps too much so for some viewers, which is why they ditched it in TROS), and the message that there will always be good to face that evil is anything but nihilistic. It’s the very heart of what Star Wars is - never ending hope in the face of potential despair.
Exactly. We do know that they kept some of what Lucas had come up with. They also revisited a lot of his abandoned ideas for earlier films. I would love to see his treatments, but if you read some of his other treatments, the final films came out much different. And in history and myth, evil is something always lurking and endangering the good we create. The idea that Star Wars should somehow deviate from that and must keep what the heroes of the OT worked so hard to win is indeed silly. Each generation has their own fight and some generations lose that fight (the PT).
I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?
This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.
Going forward, should they just keep making movies about rebels vs empire, with more Death Stars? Just seems like that’s going to get old real fast. It already feels stale and recycled, to me.
I wonder if they’re going to have characters from Rebels make cameo appearances.
I just want to say I used to absolutely hate The Lad Jedi, but now it’s one of my favorite Star Wars films. It definitely my favorite in the Sequel Trilogy.
I have some gripes about the comedy and the tone, but at least Johnson was doing something different and fun!
Yeah, I’d say my biggest issue with the film is the humor.
I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.
To me, I feel like I have the same opinion. The Force Awakens destroyed every single accomplishment in Return of the Jedi, copied the original 1977 movie, and undid Han Solo’s character growth. The Rise of Skywalker not only destroys the meaning of Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice, but also undermines this entire franchise.
The Last Jedi is awful, yes, but at least it tried to continue the story that was told in The Force Awakens, albeit badly. Thus, I consider The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker to be worse movies than The Last Jedi.
TLJ destroys Luke. So i guess they all work together against the OT characters. And for the record I never felt TFA destroyed Hans Solo, he was pretty much the Hans we knew and loved from the originals. He was a scoundrel, not really boyfriend material… And neither was Leia.
I’ve never understood this perspective that TLJ destroys Luke. He makes a mistake, overcomes it, and has a heroic death. He’s humanized, and still gets to be badass at the end.