With regards to the DS being able to use a hyperdrive. I am stunned that people think it wouldn’t. Space is really, really big…I mean, really big. For the DS to not be able to fly at lightspeed would render it completely useless for striking fear into the galaxy.
https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c
An essay written by JGL on Luke Skywalker - worth reading. Even though we ultimately disagree, he clarifies some great points already presented in this thread several times, and he does acknowledge that those who didn’t like the movie aren’t entirely wrong on Luke’s characterization or the movie itself.
If already posted, forgive me.
Another way to take this is that Luke is no longer our main character. In a movie, audience avatars such as Luke or Neo or Ethan Hunt cannot abandon their missions, cannot have self doubt so severe that they give up on the story, since that sends the clear message that the audience should give up on the story. I think this is where many fans are stuck right now. They still see Luke as the main character, someone who needs to have faith in this story. But the main character is Rey, and it is through her eyes that we are seeing this version of Luke. She is disappointed with this guy, the legend who was supposed to show Rey her place in all this. And that’s exactly why Luke cannot be the legend anymore. He must be a disappointment because otherwise people would continue to see him as the main character, and Rey would never even have the opportunity to carry the weight of the story on her shoulders.
People forget also that this is a mythological convention as old as the hills, and even Star Wars has used it in the past. The father figure becomes the ogre that our hero must slay, for the good of the people. Their time has passed, their rule is corrupted, the young blood must overthrow them. The Last Jedi accomplishes this in spades.
My problem with that is that I didn’t connect with Rey in TFA, which leads me to believe that most, if not all of my problems with TLJ, are TFA’s fault.
Well, TFA was so generic with respects to the OT I think anything outside of that realm would feel alien.
https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c
An essay written by JGL on Luke Skywalker - worth reading. Even though we ultimately disagree, he clarifies some great points already presented in this thread several times, and he does acknowledge that those who didn’t like the movie aren’t entirely wrong on Luke’s characterization or the movie itself.
If already posted, forgive me.
Great article and one I agree with. This is the general feeling from most pro critics I’ve read as well as far as that goes.
Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.
Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?
Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.
Then you must not have seen much of them. They’ve made some silly Star Wars videos in the past few years (not the PT reviews), but most of their content is great.
They certainly know what they’re talking about while also being fans with opinions.Well in what little I have seen they certainly acted like they knew what they were talking about at least…
I’ve watched the three movie length reviews of PT from them and while I agree that much of it is slapstick they do make some cogent remarks on plot, character building etc. and why the PT failed in those areas.
It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.
I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.
How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.
I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.
When did we see Luke actually learn from his mistakes? We see him make similar mistakes over and over again and we never see him really grow past it.
I gave you a very clear example in my previous post.
And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core?
It should shake him to the core, but he’s been trained to deal with this stuff both by studying and experience. A fireman is not supposed to freak out at the idea of having to put out a big fire, especially when we saw him put out bigger fires in the past, and he should certainly not give up while the fire is still small, and allow it to burn the house down.
You are building Luke up as a legend and not seeing the flaws he carried right to the end of ROTJ.
And you refuse to acknowledge the growth of Luke’s character over the course of three films.
When Luke threw down his saber and faced the Emperor he knew that he was likely to die. The Emperor didn’t goad him any further, he just tried to kill him. But there is no big huge change in Luke’s personality.
I think you are wrong. For Luke to throw away his weapon in the face of danger, and to resign himself is a major progression of his character. Just look at how he refused to leave his weapon when Yoda suggested he didn’t need it in the Dagobah dark side cave. The Luke who proclaims himself a Jedi is a very different person from the one who enters the cave. That is character progression. It’s poor story telling in my view to then just wipe that all off the table with a sixty second flashback, and more or less say Luke’s different now, move along.
so him making a similar mistake due to the horror of seeing how far his nephew had fallen already could be shock enough for him to act on instinct over intelligence for a moment. I don’t know why that is so hard to believe of his character. His arc was to redeem his father, not to be the perfect Jedi.
No, but his arc was to become a capable one, not one of the worst Jedi in history. Luke became one of the lost 20. The only thing that could have happened, that would be worse, is Luke joining the dark side. At least the PT took three movies to explain (poorly) how Anakin turned from a young hero into an evil monster. TLJ condensed a similar character arc into a sixty second flashback. That won’t do for me.
The one fact that is missed in many discussions surrounding your points is that 30 years have passed. That is a long time to consider ones life and choices, good and bad.
The other thing I was thinking about with regards to the horror Luke feels when he searches Kylo is that Kylo was likely being influenced by Snoke for quite a while by then. It is possible that Luke was sensing the Supreme Leader or at least his evil presence along with Kylo’s turning. This would cause Luke to respond as he does imo.
ok, I give up. think whatever you want. I can’t continue to argue against so many. I’m done.
I’ve read your entire exchange and I think you just painted yourself into a corner. My 2 cents is that trying to find the kind of consistency you’re expecting would only be slightly possible if all the SW movies were shot consecutively in a short period of time with the same actors, writers, director etc.
Look at the Alien franchise…prequel movies all have higher tech ships and weapons…same as SW to a degree. It has nothing to do with consistency but not wanting to do a period film for what are in large part effects flicks.
I understand to a degree with regards to your POV but what your asking for is just not going to happen in any series that I know of…perhaps others can prove me wrong?
Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.
And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.
It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.
Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.
I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.
Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.
The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.
I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.
Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.
Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.
The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.
So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.
If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.
Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.
I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).
I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.
The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.
I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.
Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.
And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.
Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.
My take on that scene was that Finn was going to die before destroying the weapon…his speeder was falling apart rapidly and the beam was already brightening…signifying it was already too late.
I think Rian was showing us that Finn was ready to die for the cause…he had become “rebel scum” instead of just “scum”.
As a fictional movie with a nonsense weapon like the Starkiller, Finn could have lived or died. I read the scene that Finn was more brave and selfless than stupid, so I lean toward the possibility of living. In the end, it’s an
academicobsessive fan debate anyway.
Fair enough…but obsessive (a wee bit) appears to be what this site is all about…amiright? 😉
Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.
And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.
It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.
Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.
I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.
Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.
The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.
I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.
Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.
Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.
The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.
So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.
If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.
Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.
I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).
I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.
The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.
I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.
Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.
And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.
Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.
My take on that scene was that Finn was going to die before destroying the weapon…his speeder was falling apart rapidly and the beam was already brightening…signifying it was already too late.
I think Rian was showing us that Finn was ready to die for the cause…he had become “rebel scum” instead of just “scum”.
After thinking about this for a while longer (this site has that effect doesn’t it? :😃
I think a lot of the angst with TLJ comes from the marked difference in presentation between the OT and this film…Luke in the OT and the story in general is one of mythology as we all know but it was also written and filmed like a mythological tale. The hero’s are right and the villains wrong…the contrast is deep and wide between the two…very black and white.
We see it as a parable and a story in that very light.
With TLJ we see that changed quite drastically imo. Luke is a Jedi master but he is also very human with human flaws and frailties. We see the rebellion/resistance repeatedly fail and that is a jolt for those of us who have been waiting to see the OT style of story telling. It was for me but in hindsight I was happier for it as it opens this franchise and story to open up into many more possibilities. Looking back at the EU the main plot is always similar to one another.
I felt a closer affiliation with Luke in TLJ because we’ve all failed and messed things up but he was able to find a reason to pick himself up and realize he was wrong…he made things right as he could.
Under the broad theme of good v evil, The OT dealt with complex themes and characters. It dealt with failure and duplicity by the good guys. Telling you to go kill a guy who is, unknown to you, your father is a really shabby thing. It’s very ends justifies the means. The idea that Vader, established as repentlessly evil, could be saved is profound. We do need to scratch just below the surface, but there is tons of complexity.
The problem in TLJ is not that Luke failed but how he handled that failure.
Sure, but the manner in which that film is presented makes us look at from afar. Myths are great for teaching universal lessons but they are utilize generic mythological characters to do it. TLJ brings the characters in line with real people with real problems in a close and raw sense. I get what you’re saying but for me to be able to see and feel Luke’s doubt and pain in TLJ was much more visceral.
After thinking about this for a while longer (this site has that effect doesn’t it? :😃
I think a lot of the angst with TLJ comes from the marked difference in presentation between the OT and this film…Luke in the OT and the story in general is one of mythology as we all know but it was also written and filmed like a mythological tale. The hero’s are right and the villains wrong…the contrast is deep and wide between the two…very black and white.
We see it as a parable and a story in that very light.
With TLJ we see that changed quite drastically imo. Luke is a Jedi master but he is also very human with human flaws and frailties. We see the rebellion/resistance repeatedly fail and that is a jolt for those of us who have been waiting to see the OT style of story telling. It was for me but in hindsight I was happier for it as it opens this franchise and story to open up into many more possibilities. Looking back at the EU the main plot is always similar to one another.
I felt a closer affiliation with Luke in TLJ because we’ve all failed and messed things up but he was able to find a reason to pick himself up and realize he was wrong…he made things right as he could.
[yotsuya said:]
Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.
Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.
He also sheathed his saber a second later and decided to not kill Kylo. Again, much the same as ROTJ with Vader…except he was really trying to kill him then after finding out old dad was going to try and turn Leia.
There’s a difference between being a “legendary hero” in the context of our real life view of the OT as a story told on film and being a legendary hero in universe and all that comes with that meaning (though of course the two are metatextually related).
The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?
The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.
The original Star Wars is my all time favorite movie. But it’s not my favorite movie as the first film of a saga or as the fourth. It’s my favorite movie as a standalone, modern mythic adventure fairy tale. I can still watch it and love it in this way, even though Empire necessarily complicates the characters and the universe (and the myth) beyond what we see in the original. Empire can’t take anything away from Star Wars, it can only add to it. That’s what the ST does to the OT.
Yes, but as a critic I ask myself, did it have to completely break the myth of the OT in order to further the story? The ST is willing to deconstruct classic heroes, but it is inwilling to forgoe the underlying conflict of Empire versus rebels, and the OT aesthetic. Why were the classic heroes sacrificed in order to to be replaced by a new generation of heroes placed in an almost identical situation? That doesn’t feel like a natural story extension. It feels like a reboot. I think it’s fair to criticize those story choices.
Fall and redemption was Luke’s story in TLJ for me…much like Anakin’s in the OT. I see this as a quintessential hero story.
Well I do think the Jedi in the PT have too rigid a definition of the Force. Whether George did that on purpose, doesn’t matter, as I’m glad to see the ST expand it into so much more than just midichlorian counts.
I think it was a little more than that to George, and to me too. The Force is just The Force. Jediism is a 1,000 generations worth of knowledge about and understanding of The Force.
Frankly, if George actually felt that way he wouldn’t have introduced midichlorians in the first place.
What was the jingling part again?
All the coins that were put into BB-8 at the casino by a drunk gambler.
Fantastic review by Adam Does Movies:
I thought it sucked but then I never was into that level of sarcasm. I also liked the movie. 😃
Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.
“The Rebellion is reborn today.”
The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.
Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.
Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.
Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.
If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.
First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.
And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.
According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.
But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?
Rebellions require organisation, a base of operations, personel, extensive training, equipment, and financial resources to support all of the previous. Boys with brooms ain’t gonna cut it. That’s an other thing TLJ threw out of the window, a sense of realism in conflicts, and a sense of scale and time. The FO almost instanteneously wiped out the New Republic at the start of FO, and now the Rebellion has to be rebuild from scratch, much like at the end of ROTS. It took the Alliance two decades to build their organisation between the PT and the OT, but I’m sure by episode IX there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance ready to resume control of the galaxy, where if the film adhered to previous Star Wars continuity, Rey should be looking for the next new hope.
This conversation is literally going in circles.
So here’s what I said a few posts ago:
Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.
For one the idea that Luke inspired a significant number of star systems to rise up against the FO is an assumption. Most star systems are probably too afraid to act, or even be associated with the Resistance. Inspiration isn’t going to protect them from the FO’s acts of retalliation, should they discover a star system is supporting the Reistance. Luke’s bold gesture may ahve inspired children, but in the grand scheme of things, it has achieved nothing of military value. The FO is as strong as ever, and will be consolidating their power, while the Resistance is decimated to the point, that they have no personal, funds, and equipment.
Secondly, even if several systems were inspired, they can’t openly support the new rebellion. Just like after the rise of the Empire a rebellion will have to be organized out of whole cloth. From the ROTS book and deleted scenes, we know that the first seeds of rebellion were sown the moment Palpatine introduced his new Empire. These were some powerful and influencial people, backed by some powerful and influential systems, but it took them twenty years to fully form the Alliance, and to become a significant threat to the Empire’s power structure. Like I said, if ep. IX adheres to Star Wars continuity (which it won’t), it would take up to two decades to reform a full fledged Alliance, in which case Rey would not be the next Luke, but the next Obi-Wan.
You obviously take a lot of time to think about these posts but tbh I feel that you are trying to inject too much detail into off camera action that we don’t know is happening. It’s a movie that many times showed rather than told. I appreciate your posts so please do not misunderstand me.
Cheers.
Double post
I didn’t see it as much as “a new hope,” more that Luke’s legend continues. The new hope that we have is Rey.
Fair enough…
Nice explanation of your thoughts on TLJ. I didn’t have too much trouble with the casino scenes as I actually liked the break in action at that point…The symbolism was a little too on the nose for me but it didn’t bother me for long. It also sets up the kid with the broom which is a great way to end the film…that is a new hope imo.
You know, when George Lucas used to whip out that tired old “People just want to see Darth Vader killing people with his lightsaber for two hours” excuse when people would rag on Episodes I and II, I always thought it was just a lame deflection of the prequels’ inability to tell an engaging story. But between all the negative comments about Luke in this movie and how many people I heard claim Vader’s 30 seconds on Tantive IV was the absolute best part of Rogue One, I’m beginning to think maybe he was right… 😕
Many just want infinite versions of the OT me thinks.
This editor
Not everyone needs a happy ending. You do. Don’t watch new Star Wars. Problem solved.
Yeah, but isn’t this why forums like this exist? To discuss why we jump on or off the band wagon, or why we like or dislike certain elements, or what makes a Star Wars film work for you, or not? It’s not, because we all agree. If we all agreed, we would have a first post on some random subject, followed by a few dozen: I agree! I agree! This! You’re a genius, give me more!
There’s no “why” contained in
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
All force powers are magical.
I meant how she magically acquired them.
The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.
I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.
I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.
The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.
You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.
TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.
I agree. This universe is also pointless to the previous one, since that one told a complete story.
Plus the new one makes the previous one completely pointless as well.
I give you credit, you put thought into your posts. Collipso does as well, but that one is just whining for whining’s sake. Both statements are also factually incorrect.
The thing is that I don’t feel like the ST is part of the Star Wars saga. The OT tied up all of its loose ends, and the PT is just backstory badly executed.
The ST is just meh. I’m really glad you enjoy it though. It’s nice to see other people happy.
With all due respect, there is one film left to go in the ST. It would be like me giving my thoughts on the OT after Empire without seeing ROTJ.
If you want to hear why TLJ is awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI
I think some of his premises are wrong and his analysis doesn’t speak to how the movie was executed, but he makes some observations worth considering.
Very cool. Thanks.
A lot. I can’t really out a number on it. I’ve seen every picture so far and found something I really like about each one, even the PT which I was not crazy about.
I’m a fan. Full stop.
I guess when the stories have no SW familiarity at all would be when is stop or at least think about it.