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Creox

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29-Dec-2017
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19-Apr-2023
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Post
#1220616
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

TV’s Frink said:

a_o said:

so, this is like the prequels, but for Han Solo and not Anakin Skywalker.

Also it’s a good movie.

I’d say it’s the other way around. The Prequels are very memorable, whereas Solo is the most bland forgettable SW film I’ve ever seen.

It’s amazing how we humans quickly forget. The prequels were ravaged much more severely than TLJ has been to date. The cries of ruined childhoods resounded. IMO the prequels were awful movie making with a serviceable plot and interesting revelations. Looking at what Lucas wanted to do with ep 7-9 would have been horrible x 10.

Post
#1215322
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t buy the “protest” argument at all (seems a little tin foil hat to me). If hardcore fans didn’t like TLJ, they probably know that Solo has nothing to do with it. IX’s performance will be a better indicator of the true response to VIII. I think the “boycott Soylo” group is a pretty minor demo, especially considering most of those people probably saw it anyway.

It’s all speculation, and I agree that IX’s numbers will be a better indicator. I think they’ll be worse than TLJ’s unless there are some clear indicators from Disney that they’re changing direction.

As always with SW, the fact of the matter is most of the audience is made up of casual fans at best. For them I think the main reason is that they still see Star Wars as one single franchise, whereas something like Marvel is a combination of different franchises (which is to say nothing of the fact that Solo’s performance is roughly on par with most Marvel origin movies). I do think the five month gap probably hurt it, as people aren’t used to so much SW at once, and checked out when they felt this one was skippable.

Unless TLJ is what told them it was skippable, because Star Wars itself has become skippable.

It was already skippable the minute TPM was released. Disney made it relevant again.

Box office says different.

Clearly I wasn’t referring to the box office, but regardless, one poor showing and the franchise is dead. Ok.

Poor showing with regards to a SW film. I think it will do OK but certainly not hurt the brand imo.

Post
#1215273
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

Well, I’ve seen it and really liked it. Nothing new in my thoughts that many others have posted. Great summer flick with enough call backs to make it feel special to me.

The first act felt awkward at times but it soon got moving in the right direction. I’m trying to understand the bad press the film has gotten and relatively poor box office for a SW movie. It’s more fun for me than RO which I also enjoyed quite a bit but for different reasons.

Will watch again.

Post
#1210219
Topic
Han - Solo Movie ** Spoilers **
Time

Master Sifo-Dyas said:

I saw the movie in a preview screening and… I actually liked it! ^_^

First thing out of the way: Harrison Ford is irreplacable as Han Solo, no matter wether you agree with the casting choice or not. Given the impossibility of the task, the actor did a formidable job and there were a few scenes where he managed to get close.

Oddly enough, more distracting to me were the famous actors I knew from other appearances. They are all great, but just having them in there threw me out of immersion quite a few times. Especially Woody Harrelson stuck out to me like a sore thumb.

The most prominent character who really works is Chewbacca. Second to that you have an excellent Lando, who really is spot on in his portrayal.

The whole “Lando is a robo-sexual” thing is just blown out of proportions SWJ clickbait. What is shown in the movie could be seen that way, but is by far open to interpretation - even if you have read that dumb article and are forced to look at it through that lens. Lando just cares about his droid, much like Luke treated 3PO and R2 as equals instead of underlings.

The writing is fun and doesn’t do any over the top universe rewriting.

Other than that it has great alien creatures and what stood out for me: Droids! Lots of very cool banged up customized droids. Stuff like this really helped to root it in the StarWars universe.

Over all things have more of a used look, except for the Falcon which really is just so squeaky clean not because it’s brandnew but because it’s Lando’s ship who is all about style. You can almost imagine him looking for a different parking spot not to get a ding in the pristine paint job.

All in all it’s a fun little space heist adventure with Han, Chewie and Lando. And that is all it had to be.

Right now, I have to say this is (unexpectedly) my favourite post Lucas era StarWars film.

VERY relieved to read your post. These days you never really know how to take reviews online. Will be seeing ASAP.

Thanks

Post
#1199452
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

darthrush said:

Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Handman said:

darthrush said:

Ryan-SWI said:

DrDre said:

Mavimao said:

DrDre said:

I have to say, I enjoyed TLJ a lot on bluray. I’m gonna miss Snoke though. I love a true evil mofu…

Huh!.. very interesting turn of opinion. What changed your mind when rewarching it on home video if you don’t mind me asking?

I enjoy Mark Hamill’s performance a lot.

Not a fan of how the film plays out but I’ll vehemently defend Mark’s performance, I think he did an outstanding job.

The amount of effort Hamill put into his role despite him disagreeing entirely with the writing of his character, I think really shows how much of a stand up guy he is. You can tell he cares a lot about the characters and the lore, and even if he disagreed with the direction that Rian took, he was dedicated to bringing out his vision. Very commendable.

Indeed. On the other side of the coin, it’s painfully obvious when Harrison Ford doesn’t like a role he’s playing.

Yeah, he seemed to be much more into playing TFA Han than ROTJ Han. First time in years I’ve seen Ford deliver a performance he wasn’t sleepwalking through.

Pretty much every interview I’ve seen of his the last few years has him saying his purpose for playing a role is the paycheque.

I don’t know how to believe that when I watch him in Blade Runner 2049.

I have the same thoughts but those are his words…now, he jokes about it while he’s saying it but he also never qualifies his words to reflect he’s just joking either. IMO I can see where he would grow tired of the a character like Han or Indy like a band gets tired of playing that big hit years later all the time.

Post
#1198479
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Handman said:

darthrush said:

Ryan-SWI said:

DrDre said:

Mavimao said:

DrDre said:

I have to say, I enjoyed TLJ a lot on bluray. I’m gonna miss Snoke though. I love a true evil mofu…

Huh!.. very interesting turn of opinion. What changed your mind when rewarching it on home video if you don’t mind me asking?

I enjoy Mark Hamill’s performance a lot.

Not a fan of how the film plays out but I’ll vehemently defend Mark’s performance, I think he did an outstanding job.

The amount of effort Hamill put into his role despite him disagreeing entirely with the writing of his character, I think really shows how much of a stand up guy he is. You can tell he cares a lot about the characters and the lore, and even if he disagreed with the direction that Rian took, he was dedicated to bringing out his vision. Very commendable.

Indeed. On the other side of the coin, it’s painfully obvious when Harrison Ford doesn’t like a role he’s playing.

Yeah, he seemed to be much more into playing TFA Han than ROTJ Han. First time in years I’ve seen Ford deliver a performance he wasn’t sleepwalking through.

Pretty much every interview I’ve seen of his the last few years has him saying his purpose for playing a role is the paycheque.

Post
#1190656
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Saying that you liked a movie, and why you liked a movie, is defending it?

No, but if you point out why you liked it multiple times over the course of a discussion in an attempt to refute negative criticism, then I’d say you’re defending it, yes.

Most of the analysis I read from those that like the film acknowledge it’s flaws. It’s those contentious areas that get all the airplay (ie" Luke was destroyed by Rian etc)

Post
#1190451
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Gothamknight said:

DominicCobb said:
I think a big part of it must be the expectations thing. As evidenced by GothamKnight’s post, if you were expecting something after TFA and didn’t get exactly that, there might be a disconnect for you personally, even if in reality the two films actually fit very well together.

😒

Why is this the operating assumption of TLJ apologists? It’s not that I or other critics were expecting particular answers or resolutions. It’s that we were expecting . . . answers or resolves, or even just new information, of any kind, as long it was a plausible, natural progression from TFA.

So for example, let’s say I was speculating, like many, that Rey was a Skywalker. It’s not that I was disappointed, much less upset, that she wasn’t a Skywalker; that didn’t have to be the explanation for Rey’s Force-prowess. The problem is that TLJ provided no explanation for it; therefore it provided no natural or logical progression from TFA.

I get tired of the apologists arguing that critics are whining about “not getting what they wanted” in terms of specific plot developments. We just wanted . . . plot developments.

Why does Rian owe you an explanation? Part of the reason I liked the movie was that there was no explanation for her powers or where she came from…as of YET. Even if there isn’t one forthcoming I am fine with just understanding she came from nowhere.

Post
#1190253
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

suspiciouscoffee said:

It amuses me that you can shoot a whole movie on an iPhone now and it will look better and have a higher resolution than the prequels ever will.

It is amazing but I just watched the trailer. It looks like it was recorded on a camera phone (not great). Perhaps that’s what they were aiming for considering the subject of the movie.

Post
#1189590
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Shopping Maul said:

Matt.F said:

Someone writes a long ‘negative’ dissertation.

Didn’t your grandmother tell you “If you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything at all”.

There’s some truth to the notion that positivity is more inspiring and engaging than negativity. The context of this being a kids film further adds to the ‘whiny entitled fanboy’ feeling one gets when reading such post.

The guy also flagged so many points of grievance that it becomes impossible to reply to with anything other than ‘get a life’ style comment (just one or two and we could have debated).

Following such grandmotherly advice means we may as well not have a forum. By that logic we’d merely have a series of very boring posts praising each and every aspect of the films. Like I said, the entire premise of this site was to call out the creator of the franchise on a creative decision that ‘normal’ people generally don’t give a toss about. We’re all ‘whiny fanboys’ here - whether it be disliking aspects of the saga or moaning about the crushed blacks in the official blu rays. I see no problem with this. The poster clearly loves SW enough to write a detailed and well-thought out essay on why he/she disliked an aspect of the saga. That in itself IS positive.

If any of us really felt that SW was ‘just a kids film’ then none of us would be here. Of course there are subjective limits to what might constitute a healthy fannish obsession with the movies, but merely writing a long negative review about one of the movies hardly qualifies IMO. I take your point about ‘positivity’ in general, and there is some real bile out there on the net. I just don’t think this is an example of such, and I’d hate to think that anyone who was tempted to really nerd out and write something substantial would now find themselves self-censoring on a site that is, by definition, a place for SW nerds to share and enjoy their nerdiness unfettered.

There are extremes on the pendulum and that post fell into it.

Post
#1189589
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Creox said:

Mjolnir Mark IV said:

Not too long ago, in a theater full of people far, far from fortunate…

This Is Not the Luke We’re Looking For

The Force Awakens ruined a substantial part of Luke’s character by diminishing his accomplishments as a Jedi learner. And now The Last Jedi has completed the destruction of his character by having him do things that completely contradict his character. The film reverses his personal growth as a human being, and undermines what makes him a unique, compelling, and strong character in the original trilogy.

In Return of the Jedi, it’s repeatedly and explicitly demonstrated that Luke is a pacifist:

  • Luke’s first attempt to rescue Han from Jabba is a peaceful negotiation.
  • Luke dissuades his friends from using violence against their Ewok captors.
  • When Luke and his friends are about to be cooked by Ewoks, he resolves the situation peacefully.
  • Luke refuses to fight Vader until finally being manipulated by the Emperor.
  • Luke even refuses to fight the Emperor himself.

We’re talking about a guy who tossed aside his lightsaber and refused to fight evil incarnate. And now we’re expected to believe that same guy is gonna draw his lighstaber on his sleeping nephew? You gotta be kidding me.

And let’s not forget Luke’s compassion and persistence in the OT. He refuses to give up on turning Vader back from the dark side, so why would he give up on Ben Solo? Especially when Kylo Ren repeatedly shows such obvious signs of inner conflict throughout TFA and TLJ, and especially when Luke has much more accountability for Ben as his elder, uncle, mentor, and presumably temporary guardian.

I don’t have a problem with Luke having flaws. He has them in the OT and they actually make sense. Luke is a lot of things, but one thing he most certainly is not is ruthless. He needs a damn good reason to do something so against the fundamentals of his character—a much better reason than sensing evil in someone who shows ample signs of being conflicted.

Even if he backs out partway through the deed, Luke murdering his sleeping nephew is out of the question. It’s right up there with Gandhi rolling up a newspaper and going apeshit on a fly. It’s clear that the writers of TFA did not anticipate the direction the writer of TLJ would take it in. But more importantly, it’s a sign of a writer who doesn’t understand Luke Skywalker as a character. There’s a baffling level of disregard for the hard work that was put into crafting the narrative and characters of the OT.

Plot Holes

  • Leia loses consciousness in outer space, then regains consciousness. Sorry, but that’s just not how it works. When you lose consciousness in outer space without a space suit, it’s game over unless someone else rescues you quick. This even applies to people who can fly in outer space (unless of course they’re Kryptonian). I don’t expect Star Wars to adhere to every law of science, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and they crossed it with this one.
  • The logic behind Luke’s decision to train Rey makes no sense. He’s going to teach her how to be a Jedi so that she doesn’t become…a Jedi. Right, makes perfect sense. If you want to teach your kids why car theft is wrong, teach them how to break into a car. The fact that Rey attacks Luke after he decides to train her only validates the absurdness of his logic, as does the fact that against Luke’s wishes, Rey then abandons her training to confront Kylo.
  • If the First Order is tracking the Resistance and chasing them, and the Resistance is running out of fuel, why not skip ahead of them at light speed and then cut them off with a barricade of ships? Or hell, now that we know light-speed kamikaze attacks are the Kamehamehas of the Star Wars universe, why not sacrifice a ship or two to bring down the last of the Resistance?
  • If DJ has the skills to let himself out of his cell, then why is he still in his cell when Finn and Rose arrive? All we can assume is that he was biding his time for an opportunity like Finn and Rose to use either as extra firepower or to create a distraction. But if this is the case, there should be a hint of it somewhere in the narrative. There’s also too much narrative convenience with this explanation: Finn and Rose come for the one codebreaker who can help them, and instead they get another codebreaker who can help them, who just happens to be waiting for them to help him.
  • If Snoke senses the possibility of the good side overtaking Kylo despite Kylo having killed his father, then why doesn’t Luke sense the good in Kylo before Han is killed?
  • Snoke is powerful enough to telepathically connect Kylo and Rey, yet in the scene where Kylo betrays him, he doesn’t sense Kylo’s intention to betray him, nor the swiveling lightsaber on the arm of his chair. If Vader can perceive what Luke is trying to hide about his sister in ROTJ, Snoke should be able to perceive Kylo’s intentions. It isn’t simply a matter of Kylo himself not knowing what he is about to do, because he had already made the decision to put the lightsaber on Snoke’s armchair into motion.
  • Holdo sacrifices herself by piloting an empty transport ship and going kamikaze at light speed, tearing through the First Order fleet. But if BB-8 can pilot an AT-ST, then the Resistance could have just had a droid pilot the ship in place of Holdo. Holdo’s sacrifice is completely unnecessary.
  • If the purpose of Luke’s Force projection stunt is to create a distraction that will allow the Resistance to escape, that makes no sense, because when Luke makes this decision, the Resistance believes there’s no way out of the base. What good is a distraction going to do if the Resistance doesn’t know how to escape? And if Luke knows there is a way out, he should have told Leia when he arrived, rather than commenting on her hair and giving her holographic dice.

Criticism

  • At the beginning of the film, the situation between the Resistance and the First Order suggests there’s a gap in time between TFA and TLJ, yet there appears to be absolutely no time gap for Luke and Rey: their first scene in TLJ is a re-shot version of their final scene in TFA. I mainly blame TFA for shoehorning the scene with Luke into the end of that film, but this film is also accountable for continuing the story without adding a gap in time for Rey and Luke.
  • The humor is abysmal. Instead of there being incidental humor that exists as natural extensions of realistic characters (like in the OT), there are tangential gags, and characters who spout contrived and cliche satirical nonsense (you can thank Jar Jar Abrams for that). When the “comical” tangents strike, the storytelling screeches to a halt for the sole purpose of putting the spotlight on a gag or a satirical exchange between characters. In the OT, humor unfolds naturally along with the story and contributes to character development. The choice to switch the humor to a different genre in the ST was a bad one.
  • Leia gracefully flies through outer space. Quite frankly, this scene would have made a lot more sense if she had first ripped open her shirt to reveal a Superman “S” insignia under her regular clothes. Try typing “leia flying through space” into YouTube with a straight face. Go ahead. I dare you. It’s not the memes that will kill you, it’s the simple act of typing those words and the ludicrous imagery your brain conjures when you remember that scene.
  • Maz Kanata has a lengthy conversation while fighting. Typically when you’re being shot at, you let the call go to voicemail. Picking up a call that has no bearing on the firefight implies either an idiotic level of disregard for danger (which comes packaged with an absurd level of luck if she survives), or complete omnipotence in the face of danger. Either way you look at it, the scene is a disaster.
  • In Canto Bight, spontaneously witnessing a crime is as easy as pulling out your binoculars and having a look. Because we all know that to instantly witness a crime in real life, all you have to do is point your binoculars at the ghetto.
  • There’s an implication that the herd of fathiers Rose and Finn set free becomes free indefinitely. Right, because we all know that once a herd of animals escapes, they can’t be rounded up again. Especially when there aren’t any spaceships, tracking devices, or tractor beams that would make rounding them up a simple task.
  • The consequences of Poe Dameron’s mutiny aren’t nearly as severe as they should be. Mutiny is a crime that should be treated seriously, even if the Resistance benefits from the mutiny.
  • Ben Solo’s ability to best Luke as an apprentice doesn’t add up. While a satisfactory explanation may be in the works for the next film, it also might not be. So until that time, it stands as a fault in the narrative.
  • The practical special effects for Yoda aren’t nearly as good as they were in The Empire Strikes Back. In fact, they’re downright bad. Considering it’s been nearly 40 years since TESB, that’s pretty pathetic. The fact that Yoda’s facial features have the wrong proportions is inexcusable considering the 3D scanning and printing technology that’s been available for years.
  • It doesn’t make any sense that Yoda looks and sounds younger. Obi-Wan didn’t turn into a younger version of himself when he became a Force ghost, so why should Yoda?
  • As a Force ghost, Yoda summons a lightning bolt that sets the Jedi temple ablaze. This type of physical interaction between the immaterial world and the physical world diminishes the consequences of a Jedi’s “death.” It’s already enough that the spirit of a Jedi who has become one with the Force can converse with a living Force user. Suspension of disbelief is also an issue (see below, under “Overpowered Force”).
  • Yoda’s advice doesn’t warrant his return to a role as Luke’s guide. He doesn’t have anything to say that Luke shouldn’t already know. Learning from one’s mistakes might be a profound lesson for a young man, but Luke is well past that stage, and based on his arc in the OT, it’s hard to believe he hasn’t already learned this lesson. Yoda’s guidance only succeeds in making Luke look incompetent.
  • Similar to what was done in TFA with Han, an aspect of Luke’s character is rolled back to a proven formula and he resumes his role as someone who requires guidance from the wise. Like Han, Luke is a character I would have preferred to see evolve, rather than regress—or at the very least maintain the capacity to make wise decisions that he had in ROTJ. Again, there’s an uncharacteristic level of incompetence applied to Luke’s character in TLJ.
    • In the OT, Yoda converses with Obi-Wan as a colleague rather than a mentor, even though he trained Obi-Wan.
    • In TESB, Luke is in the same student role Obi-Wan once was in. Obi-Wan even compares his younger self to Luke—twice!
    • And in TLJ, Luke is now in the same instructor role Obi-Wan was in. Luke may even have more experience as a Jedi trainer than Obi-Wan, if you count the number of students (Kylo, Rey, and the students that are MIA/AWOL).
      I think at this point, based on his age and experience, Luke should qualify for the role of the wise old man who needs no further guidance, and that he and Yoda should converse as colleagues. Not only would it be in character based on the trajectory of Luke’s arc, it would broaden his arc and deepen the story.
  • In TFA, Rey already has telekinesis superior to Kylo, despite that she is a novice with no mentor. Yet in TLJ, after being trained by Luke, she and Kylo are now evenly matched, neither one being able to win the Force-pull battle to retrieve the lightsaber.
  • The introduction of a light-speed kamikaze attack resulting in such massive destruction breaks the continuity of logic in previous films. If that’s the result of such an attack, then why was it not done in any of the previous movies? The answer is that none of the writers were stupid enough to add something that would make the ending of a movie less exciting (the Death Star in A New Hope and ROTJ), confine the plot of every subsequent movie, or contradict the logic of previous movies.
  • BB-8 operates an AT-ST, using it to attack. Allowing any droid to step into the role of an action hero is a bad idea, unless of course you like the prequel trilogy. Once a droid starts undertaking tasks of this magnitude, it not only makes the film less believable, it also diminishes the unique appeal of the character. In the OT, R2-D2 is able to save the day despite his limitations, which makes him the little underdog everyone roots for.
  • When BB-8 pilots an AT-ST, it breaks the continuity of logic in the ST: if it has come to the point where droids can operate vehicles autonomously, why are more droids not used in place of pilots?
  • After landing on Crait, a member of the Resistance wipes his finger through salt and tastes it, then says, “Salt.” When Luke lands on Dagobah for the first time, he doesn’t dip his finger into the swamp to taste it and say, “Swamp water.” This dude is on an alien planet he’s never been on before. He isn’t going to put some unknown alien substance in his mouth to find out what it is, unless of course he’s an idiot. Furthermore, what makes him so sure it’s just salt, as opposed to something that is just really salty? Just because something tastes like salt doesn’t mean it is salt. I’m sure there are a wide range of substances it could be. It could be dried up crystal-fox piss for all he knows. If the purpose of this idiotic salt-tasting tangent is to inform the viewer that it isn’t snow, this info could have easily been packaged into earlier dialog. Something like, “There’s an old Rebel base down on the salt flats of Crait.” The shot also lasts for an unnecessarily long period of time…as if the moment wasn’t already awkward enough.
  • The Resistance knows the First Order is coming to attack them on Crait, yet they wait until the First Order is actually coming before they close the front gate. That just makes the Resistance look stupid.
  • Luke (later revealed to be a projection) dodges an incoming attack from Kylo’s lightsaber in slow motion. Using slow motion in an action scene to sensationalize a moment has become cliche. Slow motion in action is a distinct style (some would say gimmick) that’s never been part of Star Wars, unless you want to include Luke’s vision in TESB—but there it was used to instill a dreamlike effect on the vision as a whole, not to sensationalize a shot to make it “cool.” This shot in TLJ is just one step away from bullet time with an orbiting camera angle—and that is one step too close.
  • The kid in the final scene uses the Force to grab his broom. Even Rey, who is the fastest-learning Force user revealed thus far, doesn’t discover her powers until she’s an adult. So that makes him the most prodigious Jedi learner to date. There’s a lot of explaining to do with this kid. He better be really important in the next movie.
  • The final scene of the film is a narrative non sequitur. Even if this random kid ends up being really important in the next film, he isn’t nearly important enough in this film to get the final scene.

Derivative Material

Much like TFA, way too many narrative elements are repeated from previous films. One of the most glaring repeats is that once again, it’s the “Rebels” against the “Empire.” I realize this is a dynamic established in TFA that can’t be ignored, but TLJ isn’t obligated to continue duplicating the dynamic from the OT as closely as they have.

Repeated from TESB:

  • The “Rebels” are chased out of their hideout by the “Empire” at the beginning of the movie.
  • The Jedi master at first refuses to train the Jedi apprentice.
  • There is a cave of illusions that tests the Jedi apprentice.
  • Against admonitions from the Jedi master, the Jedi apprentice quits training early, which results in a confrontation between the Jedi apprentice and the Sith apprentice.
  • Yoda acts as Luke’s guide.
  • The Sith apprentice tries to persuade the Jedi apprentice into joining him as a ruling partner.
  • In a daytime scene, the “Rebels” are barricaded in a Rebel base located on a planet with a white landscape and a trench cutting across the battlefield in front of the base. They defend against the “Empire,” which deploys AT-AT Walkers that cross the battlefield to attack the Rebel base. Wow. If any more were repeated from the battle of Hoth, the “Rebels” would have been routed off the planet by the “Empire”…oh right, that happened too.
  • The Millennium Falcon flies through a cavernous area with narrow passages while being chased by TIE fighters.

Repeated from ROTJ:

  • The Sith apprentice captures the Jedi apprentice.
  • The Sith lord taunts the Jedi apprentice by showing him/her the space battle happening through a window (and while the Sith apprentice is there too).
  • The Sith lord has the Sith apprentice bring the shackled Jedi apprentice before him.
  • The Sith lord uses the Force to remove the Jedi apprentice’s shackles.
  • The identity of family members are revealed (also in TESB). (Kylo tells us who Rey’s parents are. Whether or not he’s lying, I don’t see why family member reveals needs to be repeated. Does not knowing who your parents are make you a stronger Jedi or something?)

Nitpicks

  • It doesn’t make any sense that the Resistance is counting on Luke to give them hope. Yes, Luke blew up the Death Star. And he turned Vader who then destroyed the Emperor. But it was Han who took out Vader in ANH, and Lando and Wedge who destroyed the Death Star in ROTJ. While Luke was a key player, it was a team effort. Luke’s part in the original trilogy was much more about personal growth than winning the war for the Rebels anyway (following in his father’s footsteps by becoming a Jedi, and the man he had to grow into to turn his father back from the dark side). The Rebellion didn’t rely on Luke back when he was an active participant, so I don’t see why the Resistance would be counting on him to give them hope when he’s been completely out of the picture for years. If anything, the Resistance should be looking to Leia for hope. She’s been in a proactive leadership role punching courage into the guts of Rebels since day one. But even with her, waiting for someone to give them hope just isn’t a logical plot element, at least not with the existing context.
  • Rey tries to return Luke’s lighsaber to him, as she was seen doing at the end of TFA—only the scene is different. In both the OT and the PT, there are gaps in time in between episodes, so redoing a scene from the previous movie is incredibly out of place for a Star Wars film. It’s like beginning TESB by redoing the ceremony at the end of ANH. Furthermore, it blurs the line between the episodic format and the uber film split into two or three parts, which I think is a bad idea for any Star Wars film with an episode number attached to it. It’s not as bad as a “Previously, in Star Wars” segment with clips from the previous film, but it’s a little too close for comfort.
  • While I’m indifferent about Luke drinking alien milk, splashing it all over his beard like a savage is out of character. The gag is also completely tangential: there isn’t anything in it that moves the story forward. Compare it to when Luke eats Yoda’s soup in TESB, for example. The humor there is incidental: it’s humorous that Luke thinks the soup tastes bad, but it doesn’t stop the narrative—it’s simply one element of a scene that actually moves the story forward.
  • I disapprove of Luke using the term “laser sword.”
  • Some of the members of the Resistance have some pretty glamorous hair, which doesn’t do a good job at portraying people with dwindling numbers who are on the run, out of fuel, and fighting for survival.
  • Luke is a lousy mentor. Aside from being a grouch, he doesn’t do much to instruct Rey, other than tell her to sit with her legs crossed, breath, and reach out. In one scene, Rey waves her lighsaber around with no instruction on the edge of a cliff, like a kid playing with a toy weapon (not so different from that little kid playing in the bathroom in that stupid commercial with the irritating a cappella). Then Luke comes down and silently watches, looking on as she proceeds to vandalize ancient Jedi temple property by cleaving an outcrop in two. Nice training, Luke.
  • Kylo gets physically wet from being in a wet location despite only being there telepathically. While this doesn’t necessarily contradict previous movies, I don’t see the purpose of introducing it. It seems to only exist to unnecessarily change our perception of the Force. It doesn’t add anything substantial.
  • The fathiers Finn and Rose ride through the casino are able to burst straight through walls—and I’m not talking sheet rock. Even if it were cars going through these walls instead of these creatures, they would be wrecked. Yet these herd creatures are unscathed, seeming both impervious and oblivious to the walls they run through.
  • Multiple perspectives of the same event can be really interesting. But here, the repetition gets tiresome (the flashback of Luke’s confrontation with Ben Solo).
  • Like TFA, there are questions that are never answered, and the persistence of these unanswered questions is getting to be a problem. What probably could have been explained in 15 seconds of exposition is dragged out across three films with cryptic flashbacks (assuming we actually get answers in the third film). I have nothing against mystery, but spreading such little substance out across so much screen time grows tiresome. TLJ probably should have been the film that explains what happens to Luke’s other students.
  • Aside from Snoke’s role as leader and mentor, it’s never revealed how he fits into the story. Why wasn’t he an active participant in the OT when he looks old enough to have been an adult then? Who is the Sith who trained him? Where was this Sith in the OT? What happened to him? Not all of this needs to be explained. I don’t need much—but I do need something. This is a gap in between the OT and the ST that needs to be explained. You can’t just have the Sith lord be some guy with no context that came out of nowhere, not when it’s a sequel to a story in which the Sith were, by all appearances, wiped out. I’m not a fan of the PT, but take for example one of the things I do like about it, which is how much the short story about Darth Plagueis adds to Palapatine’s character—and that’s all optional. All the ST needs is a little something like that to at least hint at Snoke’s context.
  • The CG work on Snoke doesn’t look too great—and he doesn’t need to be completely CG in the first place.
  • Kylo catching the lightsaber and turning it on behind him to attack is a cheesy gimmick like something you would see in a '90s action flick. While there’s a certain utility to using a lightsaber like that in certain situations, my complaint is more about the nuance of how the moment is executed, as opposed to what the character is doing.
  • When Kylo and Rey each use the Force to try and take the lightsaber at the same time, they slide away from each other, which doesn’t make any sense. First of all, it’s the lightsaber they’re targeting, not each other. Furthermore, each person is doing a Force pull, so if anything, the other person would be pulled, not pushed.
  • In TESB, Luke goes into training with Yoda as a novice and comes out at an intermediate level. In TLJ, Rey goes into training with Luke advanced, and comes out…advanced. I blame TFA for putting Rey in a position that doesn’t require that she learn any new skills or get better at the ones she already has.
  • It’s odd that absolutely nothing is said about Captain Phasma’s blaster-proof armor, or why not all stormtroopers have it. I’m not asking for much—just a bread crumb—but something at least would have been nice.
  • Rose rams Finn’s speeder to save him. But this is a stupid move because she could have killed them both. Furthermore, how come the First Order doesn’t attack them after this happens?
  • Suicide attacks are overused as a plot device:
    • Paige sacrifices herself with the bomber.
    • Holdo sacrifices herself by crashing the transport ship into the First Order fleet.
    • Finn tries to sacrifice himself by crashing his speeder into the laser cannon on Crait.
    • Rose saves Finn by crashing her speeder into his (I realize she doesn’t die, but it’s a sacrificial act that could have killed her).
  • In TESB, Luke levitates rocks, cargo, and R2-D2, and Yoda levitates Luke’s X-wing; and in ROTJ, Luke levitates C-3PO in the Ewok village. If it takes so much effort for Luke to project himself across the galaxy in TLJ, it doesn’t make sense that he would levitate too. It’s demonstrated in the OT that that levitating objects is an act which requires effort in and of itself, so logically, doing it in addition to another act would make it something extra that would require even more effort, and would thus detract from the focus being directed at the task at hand, especially when that task is something as demanding as long-distance projection across the galaxy.
  • There are too many moments when a character wells up with tears in their eyes. The more times that kind of thing is done, the less impact each instance is going to have—especially when it isn’t always clear what’s provoking emotion of that degree.

And scattered throughout the film are smaller lapses in logic and poorly written dialog. I haven’t mentioned these mainly because they are so numerous I simply couldn’t keep track of them all, but also because my attention was compromised when I saw the film: it got to the point where I simply stopped caring about the characters and thus checked out of the movie as a whole. So on that note, if there’s something I missed that you think could give me new insight, do tell!

Continuity Breaks with the Force

There are continuity breaks with how the Force is portrayed in the original trilogy, although this is more a problem with the sequel trilogy in general as opposed to this film in particular (which is the only reason I’m putting them after Nitpicks).

  • If Snoke can create and amplify a telepathic link between two Force users to find someone, why doesn’t the Emperor do this in TESB to find Luke?
  • Levitating one’s self: Luke breaks his fall when Rey attacks him, Leia pulls herself through outer space, and Luke levitates while astrally projecting himself. If such things are possible, Vader would have broken his fall when Luke kicks him down the stairs in ROTJ, and the Emperor would have pushed off of something or pulled himself towards something when getting tossed down the big shaft (there are some bridges he passes on his way down).
  • Curving the course of a moving object with telekinesis: Rey is smacked in the back of the head with a lightsaber that loops around the room. This just goes against everything we’ve seen on a fundamental level. It seems like something we would have seen if it were possible, considering the number of times we see the act of telekinesis.
  • Leia is able to hold the “holographic” dice that Luke’s Force projection gives her. This implies contradictions in logic in previous films, such as how Yoda could have helped Luke from Dagobah when Luke goes to Bespin. Furthermore, I’m willing to accept Force projection, particularly if it’s exclusive to the good side of the Force, but materializing solid objects out of thin air goes too far, even if they’re only temporary—especially when the person creating them is across the galaxy.
  • Self-teaching the Force. While TFA already broke this rule, TLJ breaks it on another level, with someone even younger than Rey learning how to use the Force with no training (the kid at the end of the movie with the broom).

Overpowered Force

Continuity breaks aren’t the only problem with how the Force is used in the sequel trilogy. Take the above continuity breaks into consideration along with my other complaints, such as Force-ghost Yoda’s lightning bolt, or Luke being able to materialize solid matter from across the galaxy, or the problems with how the Force is used in TFA (see link at the bottom of this post). What’s possible with the Force has spiraled far enough out of control for me to conclude that anything is possible—that the writers of any Star Wars movie can do literally anything they want with the Force to solve any problem in the story for any character—and that’s just not very exciting. And it makes the Force less believable. Key word: “less.” Suspension of disbelief relies on at least some semblance of believability, and I think the OT found the perfect balance in that regard. And because the Force isn’t overpowered in the OT, that also raises the stakes for the characters, which helps make the story more interesting. So it’s a win-win, or in the case of the ST, a lose-lose.

What I Like

The only element I enjoyed unconditionally is the performance of the main cast. I’m sure the music is great (I love John Williams), but I don’t remember most of it (probably to no fault of the composer).

There are things I like conditionally, but unfortunately they’re inseparable from the faults I’ve mentioned. And people say the movie is visually spectacular, yet I couldn’t tell you if that’s true or not because I was too overwhelmed by the complete disaster of a story to appreciate the visuals. I even went into the theater thinking, “Okay, just focus on the visuals. At least those should be good.” Didn’t work.

Conclusion

Like TFA, TLJ smacks of amateur fanfic and reeks of artifice. I sense writers doing with these characters what they would do with their action figures as children, rather than fleshing out believable characters and having a compelling story unfold based on their decisions. I sense, “Let’s make something interesting happen in the plot,” rather than, “Let’s make interesting characters.” And as for maintaining continuity with the OT, there’s just so much lack of forethought it’s bewildering. It would appear the mantra of the sequel trilogy is “Do, or do not. There is no think.”

And now we have Jar Jar Abrams returning to the helm…I think that’s pretty much ensured my vacancy at the theater for the third installment. After all, he’s the one who laid the shoddy foundation the sequel trilogy is built on and kicked it off into the downward spiral it’s currently on. If you want to know more about why I don’t like TFA, you can read about it here, and a few posts later here.

Don’t watch it anymore and move on…sounds simple enough.

The next person who quotes that “thing” is getting a skyscraper bunny up their [REDACTED].

All apologies. 😃

Post
#1189560
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Shopping Maul said:

Seriously, we’re on a site that was created by adults (like me) who can’t handle the fact that their favourite childhood film had some cartoon dinosaurs inserted into it. We collect action figures and read comic books and discuss at great length just how white the snow on Hoth might have been on the original 1980 film stock. Yet someone writes a long dissertation about one of these movies and suddenly everyone’s like “gee, get a life dude”.

Isn’t this exactly the place for such a post?

Actually your two thoughts on the matter are not the same issue imo.

One is about finding anything and everything about a movie you dislike and with surgical accuracy complete a thesis on why it sucks so bad.

This is much different than falling in love with a movie despite it’s flaws and enjoying discussions around that…

One thing is not like the other.

Post
#1189559
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mjolnir Mark IV said:

Not too long ago, in a theater full of people far, far from fortunate…

This Is Not the Luke We’re Looking For

The Force Awakens ruined a substantial part of Luke’s character by diminishing his accomplishments as a Jedi learner. And now The Last Jedi has completed the destruction of his character by having him do things that completely contradict his character. The film reverses his personal growth as a human being, and undermines what makes him a unique, compelling, and strong character in the original trilogy.

In Return of the Jedi, it’s repeatedly and explicitly demonstrated that Luke is a pacifist:

  • Luke’s first attempt to rescue Han from Jabba is a peaceful negotiation.
  • Luke dissuades his friends from using violence against their Ewok captors.
  • When Luke and his friends are about to be cooked by Ewoks, he resolves the situation peacefully.
  • Luke refuses to fight Vader until finally being manipulated by the Emperor.
  • Luke even refuses to fight the Emperor himself.

We’re talking about a guy who tossed aside his lightsaber and refused to fight evil incarnate. And now we’re expected to believe that same guy is gonna draw his lighstaber on his sleeping nephew? You gotta be kidding me.

And let’s not forget Luke’s compassion and persistence in the OT. He refuses to give up on turning Vader back from the dark side, so why would he give up on Ben Solo? Especially when Kylo Ren repeatedly shows such obvious signs of inner conflict throughout TFA and TLJ, and especially when Luke has much more accountability for Ben as his elder, uncle, mentor, and presumably temporary guardian.

I don’t have a problem with Luke having flaws. He has them in the OT and they actually make sense. Luke is a lot of things, but one thing he most certainly is not is ruthless. He needs a damn good reason to do something so against the fundamentals of his character—a much better reason than sensing evil in someone who shows ample signs of being conflicted.

Even if he backs out partway through the deed, Luke murdering his sleeping nephew is out of the question. It’s right up there with Gandhi rolling up a newspaper and going apeshit on a fly. It’s clear that the writers of TFA did not anticipate the direction the writer of TLJ would take it in. But more importantly, it’s a sign of a writer who doesn’t understand Luke Skywalker as a character. There’s a baffling level of disregard for the hard work that was put into crafting the narrative and characters of the OT.

Plot Holes

  • Leia loses consciousness in outer space, then regains consciousness. Sorry, but that’s just not how it works. When you lose consciousness in outer space without a space suit, it’s game over unless someone else rescues you quick. This even applies to people who can fly in outer space (unless of course they’re Kryptonian). I don’t expect Star Wars to adhere to every law of science, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and they crossed it with this one.
  • The logic behind Luke’s decision to train Rey makes no sense. He’s going to teach her how to be a Jedi so that she doesn’t become…a Jedi. Right, makes perfect sense. If you want to teach your kids why car theft is wrong, teach them how to break into a car. The fact that Rey attacks Luke after he decides to train her only validates the absurdness of his logic, as does the fact that against Luke’s wishes, Rey then abandons her training to confront Kylo.
  • If the First Order is tracking the Resistance and chasing them, and the Resistance is running out of fuel, why not skip ahead of them at light speed and then cut them off with a barricade of ships? Or hell, now that we know light-speed kamikaze attacks are the Kamehamehas of the Star Wars universe, why not sacrifice a ship or two to bring down the last of the Resistance?
  • If DJ has the skills to let himself out of his cell, then why is he still in his cell when Finn and Rose arrive? All we can assume is that he was biding his time for an opportunity like Finn and Rose to use either as extra firepower or to create a distraction. But if this is the case, there should be a hint of it somewhere in the narrative. There’s also too much narrative convenience with this explanation: Finn and Rose come for the one codebreaker who can help them, and instead they get another codebreaker who can help them, who just happens to be waiting for them to help him.
  • If Snoke senses the possibility of the good side overtaking Kylo despite Kylo having killed his father, then why doesn’t Luke sense the good in Kylo before Han is killed?
  • Snoke is powerful enough to telepathically connect Kylo and Rey, yet in the scene where Kylo betrays him, he doesn’t sense Kylo’s intention to betray him, nor the swiveling lightsaber on the arm of his chair. If Vader can perceive what Luke is trying to hide about his sister in ROTJ, Snoke should be able to perceive Kylo’s intentions. It isn’t simply a matter of Kylo himself not knowing what he is about to do, because he had already made the decision to put the lightsaber on Snoke’s armchair into motion.
  • Holdo sacrifices herself by piloting an empty transport ship and going kamikaze at light speed, tearing through the First Order fleet. But if BB-8 can pilot an AT-ST, then the Resistance could have just had a droid pilot the ship in place of Holdo. Holdo’s sacrifice is completely unnecessary.
  • If the purpose of Luke’s Force projection stunt is to create a distraction that will allow the Resistance to escape, that makes no sense, because when Luke makes this decision, the Resistance believes there’s no way out of the base. What good is a distraction going to do if the Resistance doesn’t know how to escape? And if Luke knows there is a way out, he should have told Leia when he arrived, rather than commenting on her hair and giving her holographic dice.

Criticism

  • At the beginning of the film, the situation between the Resistance and the First Order suggests there’s a gap in time between TFA and TLJ, yet there appears to be absolutely no time gap for Luke and Rey: their first scene in TLJ is a re-shot version of their final scene in TFA. I mainly blame TFA for shoehorning the scene with Luke into the end of that film, but this film is also accountable for continuing the story without adding a gap in time for Rey and Luke.
  • The humor is abysmal. Instead of there being incidental humor that exists as natural extensions of realistic characters (like in the OT), there are tangential gags, and characters who spout contrived and cliche satirical nonsense (you can thank Jar Jar Abrams for that). When the “comical” tangents strike, the storytelling screeches to a halt for the sole purpose of putting the spotlight on a gag or a satirical exchange between characters. In the OT, humor unfolds naturally along with the story and contributes to character development. The choice to switch the humor to a different genre in the ST was a bad one.
  • Leia gracefully flies through outer space. Quite frankly, this scene would have made a lot more sense if she had first ripped open her shirt to reveal a Superman “S” insignia under her regular clothes. Try typing “leia flying through space” into YouTube with a straight face. Go ahead. I dare you. It’s not the memes that will kill you, it’s the simple act of typing those words and the ludicrous imagery your brain conjures when you remember that scene.
  • Maz Kanata has a lengthy conversation while fighting. Typically when you’re being shot at, you let the call go to voicemail. Picking up a call that has no bearing on the firefight implies either an idiotic level of disregard for danger (which comes packaged with an absurd level of luck if she survives), or complete omnipotence in the face of danger. Either way you look at it, the scene is a disaster.
  • In Canto Bight, spontaneously witnessing a crime is as easy as pulling out your binoculars and having a look. Because we all know that to instantly witness a crime in real life, all you have to do is point your binoculars at the ghetto.
  • There’s an implication that the herd of fathiers Rose and Finn set free becomes free indefinitely. Right, because we all know that once a herd of animals escapes, they can’t be rounded up again. Especially when there aren’t any spaceships, tracking devices, or tractor beams that would make rounding them up a simple task.
  • The consequences of Poe Dameron’s mutiny aren’t nearly as severe as they should be. Mutiny is a crime that should be treated seriously, even if the Resistance benefits from the mutiny.
  • Ben Solo’s ability to best Luke as an apprentice doesn’t add up. While a satisfactory explanation may be in the works for the next film, it also might not be. So until that time, it stands as a fault in the narrative.
  • The practical special effects for Yoda aren’t nearly as good as they were in The Empire Strikes Back. In fact, they’re downright bad. Considering it’s been nearly 40 years since TESB, that’s pretty pathetic. The fact that Yoda’s facial features have the wrong proportions is inexcusable considering the 3D scanning and printing technology that’s been available for years.
  • It doesn’t make any sense that Yoda looks and sounds younger. Obi-Wan didn’t turn into a younger version of himself when he became a Force ghost, so why should Yoda?
  • As a Force ghost, Yoda summons a lightning bolt that sets the Jedi temple ablaze. This type of physical interaction between the immaterial world and the physical world diminishes the consequences of a Jedi’s “death.” It’s already enough that the spirit of a Jedi who has become one with the Force can converse with a living Force user. Suspension of disbelief is also an issue (see below, under “Overpowered Force”).
  • Yoda’s advice doesn’t warrant his return to a role as Luke’s guide. He doesn’t have anything to say that Luke shouldn’t already know. Learning from one’s mistakes might be a profound lesson for a young man, but Luke is well past that stage, and based on his arc in the OT, it’s hard to believe he hasn’t already learned this lesson. Yoda’s guidance only succeeds in making Luke look incompetent.
  • Similar to what was done in TFA with Han, an aspect of Luke’s character is rolled back to a proven formula and he resumes his role as someone who requires guidance from the wise. Like Han, Luke is a character I would have preferred to see evolve, rather than regress—or at the very least maintain the capacity to make wise decisions that he had in ROTJ. Again, there’s an uncharacteristic level of incompetence applied to Luke’s character in TLJ.
    • In the OT, Yoda converses with Obi-Wan as a colleague rather than a mentor, even though he trained Obi-Wan.
    • In TESB, Luke is in the same student role Obi-Wan once was in. Obi-Wan even compares his younger self to Luke—twice!
    • And in TLJ, Luke is now in the same instructor role Obi-Wan was in. Luke may even have more experience as a Jedi trainer than Obi-Wan, if you count the number of students (Kylo, Rey, and the students that are MIA/AWOL).
      I think at this point, based on his age and experience, Luke should qualify for the role of the wise old man who needs no further guidance, and that he and Yoda should converse as colleagues. Not only would it be in character based on the trajectory of Luke’s arc, it would broaden his arc and deepen the story.
  • In TFA, Rey already has telekinesis superior to Kylo, despite that she is a novice with no mentor. Yet in TLJ, after being trained by Luke, she and Kylo are now evenly matched, neither one being able to win the Force-pull battle to retrieve the lightsaber.
  • The introduction of a light-speed kamikaze attack resulting in such massive destruction breaks the continuity of logic in previous films. If that’s the result of such an attack, then why was it not done in any of the previous movies? The answer is that none of the writers were stupid enough to add something that would make the ending of a movie less exciting (the Death Star in A New Hope and ROTJ), confine the plot of every subsequent movie, or contradict the logic of previous movies.
  • BB-8 operates an AT-ST, using it to attack. Allowing any droid to step into the role of an action hero is a bad idea, unless of course you like the prequel trilogy. Once a droid starts undertaking tasks of this magnitude, it not only makes the film less believable, it also diminishes the unique appeal of the character. In the OT, R2-D2 is able to save the day despite his limitations, which makes him the little underdog everyone roots for.
  • When BB-8 pilots an AT-ST, it breaks the continuity of logic in the ST: if it has come to the point where droids can operate vehicles autonomously, why are more droids not used in place of pilots?
  • After landing on Crait, a member of the Resistance wipes his finger through salt and tastes it, then says, “Salt.” When Luke lands on Dagobah for the first time, he doesn’t dip his finger into the swamp to taste it and say, “Swamp water.” This dude is on an alien planet he’s never been on before. He isn’t going to put some unknown alien substance in his mouth to find out what it is, unless of course he’s an idiot. Furthermore, what makes him so sure it’s just salt, as opposed to something that is just really salty? Just because something tastes like salt doesn’t mean it is salt. I’m sure there are a wide range of substances it could be. It could be dried up crystal-fox piss for all he knows. If the purpose of this idiotic salt-tasting tangent is to inform the viewer that it isn’t snow, this info could have easily been packaged into earlier dialog. Something like, “There’s an old Rebel base down on the salt flats of Crait.” The shot also lasts for an unnecessarily long period of time…as if the moment wasn’t already awkward enough.
  • The Resistance knows the First Order is coming to attack them on Crait, yet they wait until the First Order is actually coming before they close the front gate. That just makes the Resistance look stupid.
  • Luke (later revealed to be a projection) dodges an incoming attack from Kylo’s lightsaber in slow motion. Using slow motion in an action scene to sensationalize a moment has become cliche. Slow motion in action is a distinct style (some would say gimmick) that’s never been part of Star Wars, unless you want to include Luke’s vision in TESB—but there it was used to instill a dreamlike effect on the vision as a whole, not to sensationalize a shot to make it “cool.” This shot in TLJ is just one step away from bullet time with an orbiting camera angle—and that is one step too close.
  • The kid in the final scene uses the Force to grab his broom. Even Rey, who is the fastest-learning Force user revealed thus far, doesn’t discover her powers until she’s an adult. So that makes him the most prodigious Jedi learner to date. There’s a lot of explaining to do with this kid. He better be really important in the next movie.
  • The final scene of the film is a narrative non sequitur. Even if this random kid ends up being really important in the next film, he isn’t nearly important enough in this film to get the final scene.

Derivative Material

Much like TFA, way too many narrative elements are repeated from previous films. One of the most glaring repeats is that once again, it’s the “Rebels” against the “Empire.” I realize this is a dynamic established in TFA that can’t be ignored, but TLJ isn’t obligated to continue duplicating the dynamic from the OT as closely as they have.

Repeated from TESB:

  • The “Rebels” are chased out of their hideout by the “Empire” at the beginning of the movie.
  • The Jedi master at first refuses to train the Jedi apprentice.
  • There is a cave of illusions that tests the Jedi apprentice.
  • Against admonitions from the Jedi master, the Jedi apprentice quits training early, which results in a confrontation between the Jedi apprentice and the Sith apprentice.
  • Yoda acts as Luke’s guide.
  • The Sith apprentice tries to persuade the Jedi apprentice into joining him as a ruling partner.
  • In a daytime scene, the “Rebels” are barricaded in a Rebel base located on a planet with a white landscape and a trench cutting across the battlefield in front of the base. They defend against the “Empire,” which deploys AT-AT Walkers that cross the battlefield to attack the Rebel base. Wow. If any more were repeated from the battle of Hoth, the “Rebels” would have been routed off the planet by the “Empire”…oh right, that happened too.
  • The Millennium Falcon flies through a cavernous area with narrow passages while being chased by TIE fighters.

Repeated from ROTJ:

  • The Sith apprentice captures the Jedi apprentice.
  • The Sith lord taunts the Jedi apprentice by showing him/her the space battle happening through a window (and while the Sith apprentice is there too).
  • The Sith lord has the Sith apprentice bring the shackled Jedi apprentice before him.
  • The Sith lord uses the Force to remove the Jedi apprentice’s shackles.
  • The identity of family members are revealed (also in TESB). (Kylo tells us who Rey’s parents are. Whether or not he’s lying, I don’t see why family member reveals needs to be repeated. Does not knowing who your parents are make you a stronger Jedi or something?)

Nitpicks

  • It doesn’t make any sense that the Resistance is counting on Luke to give them hope. Yes, Luke blew up the Death Star. And he turned Vader who then destroyed the Emperor. But it was Han who took out Vader in ANH, and Lando and Wedge who destroyed the Death Star in ROTJ. While Luke was a key player, it was a team effort. Luke’s part in the original trilogy was much more about personal growth than winning the war for the Rebels anyway (following in his father’s footsteps by becoming a Jedi, and the man he had to grow into to turn his father back from the dark side). The Rebellion didn’t rely on Luke back when he was an active participant, so I don’t see why the Resistance would be counting on him to give them hope when he’s been completely out of the picture for years. If anything, the Resistance should be looking to Leia for hope. She’s been in a proactive leadership role punching courage into the guts of Rebels since day one. But even with her, waiting for someone to give them hope just isn’t a logical plot element, at least not with the existing context.
  • Rey tries to return Luke’s lighsaber to him, as she was seen doing at the end of TFA—only the scene is different. In both the OT and the PT, there are gaps in time in between episodes, so redoing a scene from the previous movie is incredibly out of place for a Star Wars film. It’s like beginning TESB by redoing the ceremony at the end of ANH. Furthermore, it blurs the line between the episodic format and the uber film split into two or three parts, which I think is a bad idea for any Star Wars film with an episode number attached to it. It’s not as bad as a “Previously, in Star Wars” segment with clips from the previous film, but it’s a little too close for comfort.
  • While I’m indifferent about Luke drinking alien milk, splashing it all over his beard like a savage is out of character. The gag is also completely tangential: there isn’t anything in it that moves the story forward. Compare it to when Luke eats Yoda’s soup in TESB, for example. The humor there is incidental: it’s humorous that Luke thinks the soup tastes bad, but it doesn’t stop the narrative—it’s simply one element of a scene that actually moves the story forward.
  • I disapprove of Luke using the term “laser sword.”
  • Some of the members of the Resistance have some pretty glamorous hair, which doesn’t do a good job at portraying people with dwindling numbers who are on the run, out of fuel, and fighting for survival.
  • Luke is a lousy mentor. Aside from being a grouch, he doesn’t do much to instruct Rey, other than tell her to sit with her legs crossed, breath, and reach out. In one scene, Rey waves her lighsaber around with no instruction on the edge of a cliff, like a kid playing with a toy weapon (not so different from that little kid playing in the bathroom in that stupid commercial with the irritating a cappella). Then Luke comes down and silently watches, looking on as she proceeds to vandalize ancient Jedi temple property by cleaving an outcrop in two. Nice training, Luke.
  • Kylo gets physically wet from being in a wet location despite only being there telepathically. While this doesn’t necessarily contradict previous movies, I don’t see the purpose of introducing it. It seems to only exist to unnecessarily change our perception of the Force. It doesn’t add anything substantial.
  • The fathiers Finn and Rose ride through the casino are able to burst straight through walls—and I’m not talking sheet rock. Even if it were cars going through these walls instead of these creatures, they would be wrecked. Yet these herd creatures are unscathed, seeming both impervious and oblivious to the walls they run through.
  • Multiple perspectives of the same event can be really interesting. But here, the repetition gets tiresome (the flashback of Luke’s confrontation with Ben Solo).
  • Like TFA, there are questions that are never answered, and the persistence of these unanswered questions is getting to be a problem. What probably could have been explained in 15 seconds of exposition is dragged out across three films with cryptic flashbacks (assuming we actually get answers in the third film). I have nothing against mystery, but spreading such little substance out across so much screen time grows tiresome. TLJ probably should have been the film that explains what happens to Luke’s other students.
  • Aside from Snoke’s role as leader and mentor, it’s never revealed how he fits into the story. Why wasn’t he an active participant in the OT when he looks old enough to have been an adult then? Who is the Sith who trained him? Where was this Sith in the OT? What happened to him? Not all of this needs to be explained. I don’t need much—but I do need something. This is a gap in between the OT and the ST that needs to be explained. You can’t just have the Sith lord be some guy with no context that came out of nowhere, not when it’s a sequel to a story in which the Sith were, by all appearances, wiped out. I’m not a fan of the PT, but take for example one of the things I do like about it, which is how much the short story about Darth Plagueis adds to Palapatine’s character—and that’s all optional. All the ST needs is a little something like that to at least hint at Snoke’s context.
  • The CG work on Snoke doesn’t look too great—and he doesn’t need to be completely CG in the first place.
  • Kylo catching the lightsaber and turning it on behind him to attack is a cheesy gimmick like something you would see in a '90s action flick. While there’s a certain utility to using a lightsaber like that in certain situations, my complaint is more about the nuance of how the moment is executed, as opposed to what the character is doing.
  • When Kylo and Rey each use the Force to try and take the lightsaber at the same time, they slide away from each other, which doesn’t make any sense. First of all, it’s the lightsaber they’re targeting, not each other. Furthermore, each person is doing a Force pull, so if anything, the other person would be pulled, not pushed.
  • In TESB, Luke goes into training with Yoda as a novice and comes out at an intermediate level. In TLJ, Rey goes into training with Luke advanced, and comes out…advanced. I blame TFA for putting Rey in a position that doesn’t require that she learn any new skills or get better at the ones she already has.
  • It’s odd that absolutely nothing is said about Captain Phasma’s blaster-proof armor, or why not all stormtroopers have it. I’m not asking for much—just a bread crumb—but something at least would have been nice.
  • Rose rams Finn’s speeder to save him. But this is a stupid move because she could have killed them both. Furthermore, how come the First Order doesn’t attack them after this happens?
  • Suicide attacks are overused as a plot device:
    • Paige sacrifices herself with the bomber.
    • Holdo sacrifices herself by crashing the transport ship into the First Order fleet.
    • Finn tries to sacrifice himself by crashing his speeder into the laser cannon on Crait.
    • Rose saves Finn by crashing her speeder into his (I realize she doesn’t die, but it’s a sacrificial act that could have killed her).
  • In TESB, Luke levitates rocks, cargo, and R2-D2, and Yoda levitates Luke’s X-wing; and in ROTJ, Luke levitates C-3PO in the Ewok village. If it takes so much effort for Luke to project himself across the galaxy in TLJ, it doesn’t make sense that he would levitate too. It’s demonstrated in the OT that that levitating objects is an act which requires effort in and of itself, so logically, doing it in addition to another act would make it something extra that would require even more effort, and would thus detract from the focus being directed at the task at hand, especially when that task is something as demanding as long-distance projection across the galaxy.
  • There are too many moments when a character wells up with tears in their eyes. The more times that kind of thing is done, the less impact each instance is going to have—especially when it isn’t always clear what’s provoking emotion of that degree.

And scattered throughout the film are smaller lapses in logic and poorly written dialog. I haven’t mentioned these mainly because they are so numerous I simply couldn’t keep track of them all, but also because my attention was compromised when I saw the film: it got to the point where I simply stopped caring about the characters and thus checked out of the movie as a whole. So on that note, if there’s something I missed that you think could give me new insight, do tell!

Continuity Breaks with the Force

There are continuity breaks with how the Force is portrayed in the original trilogy, although this is more a problem with the sequel trilogy in general as opposed to this film in particular (which is the only reason I’m putting them after Nitpicks).

  • If Snoke can create and amplify a telepathic link between two Force users to find someone, why doesn’t the Emperor do this in TESB to find Luke?
  • Levitating one’s self: Luke breaks his fall when Rey attacks him, Leia pulls herself through outer space, and Luke levitates while astrally projecting himself. If such things are possible, Vader would have broken his fall when Luke kicks him down the stairs in ROTJ, and the Emperor would have pushed off of something or pulled himself towards something when getting tossed down the big shaft (there are some bridges he passes on his way down).
  • Curving the course of a moving object with telekinesis: Rey is smacked in the back of the head with a lightsaber that loops around the room. This just goes against everything we’ve seen on a fundamental level. It seems like something we would have seen if it were possible, considering the number of times we see the act of telekinesis.
  • Leia is able to hold the “holographic” dice that Luke’s Force projection gives her. This implies contradictions in logic in previous films, such as how Yoda could have helped Luke from Dagobah when Luke goes to Bespin. Furthermore, I’m willing to accept Force projection, particularly if it’s exclusive to the good side of the Force, but materializing solid objects out of thin air goes too far, even if they’re only temporary—especially when the person creating them is across the galaxy.
  • Self-teaching the Force. While TFA already broke this rule, TLJ breaks it on another level, with someone even younger than Rey learning how to use the Force with no training (the kid at the end of the movie with the broom).

Overpowered Force

Continuity breaks aren’t the only problem with how the Force is used in the sequel trilogy. Take the above continuity breaks into consideration along with my other complaints, such as Force-ghost Yoda’s lightning bolt, or Luke being able to materialize solid matter from across the galaxy, or the problems with how the Force is used in TFA (see link at the bottom of this post). What’s possible with the Force has spiraled far enough out of control for me to conclude that anything is possible—that the writers of any Star Wars movie can do literally anything they want with the Force to solve any problem in the story for any character—and that’s just not very exciting. And it makes the Force less believable. Key word: “less.” Suspension of disbelief relies on at least some semblance of believability, and I think the OT found the perfect balance in that regard. And because the Force isn’t overpowered in the OT, that also raises the stakes for the characters, which helps make the story more interesting. So it’s a win-win, or in the case of the ST, a lose-lose.

What I Like

The only element I enjoyed unconditionally is the performance of the main cast. I’m sure the music is great (I love John Williams), but I don’t remember most of it (probably to no fault of the composer).

There are things I like conditionally, but unfortunately they’re inseparable from the faults I’ve mentioned. And people say the movie is visually spectacular, yet I couldn’t tell you if that’s true or not because I was too overwhelmed by the complete disaster of a story to appreciate the visuals. I even went into the theater thinking, “Okay, just focus on the visuals. At least those should be good.” Didn’t work.

Conclusion

Like TFA, TLJ smacks of amateur fanfic and reeks of artifice. I sense writers doing with these characters what they would do with their action figures as children, rather than fleshing out believable characters and having a compelling story unfold based on their decisions. I sense, “Let’s make something interesting happen in the plot,” rather than, “Let’s make interesting characters.” And as for maintaining continuity with the OT, there’s just so much lack of forethought it’s bewildering. It would appear the mantra of the sequel trilogy is “Do, or do not. There is no think.”

And now we have Jar Jar Abrams returning to the helm…I think that’s pretty much ensured my vacancy at the theater for the third installment. After all, he’s the one who laid the shoddy foundation the sequel trilogy is built on and kicked it off into the downward spiral it’s currently on. If you want to know more about why I don’t like TFA, you can read about it here, and a few posts later here.

Don’t watch it anymore and move on…sounds simple enough.

Post
#1187357
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

As do I. I saw SW in a theater in '77 as a 12 year old boy and haven’t looked back since. I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

When you are talking about debate among an singular group of people (mostly) as with this forum when does it become obvious that you’re just spinning your wheels and getting nowhere?

Maybe it’s just for the entertainment of debating??

I guess it’s really down to one’s personal motivation. I just love talking about Star Wars. Like you I saw SW as a kid in ‘77 and have watched the saga morph and grow, even as my own head-canon and biases were pushed and pulled by comics and prequels and now the new movies. I’m fascinated by what peoples’ particular ‘canon limits’ are and I just think that nerding out over all this stuff is fun.

My own head-canon has proven flexible too. I was 100% on board with the prequels as they emerged, but over time found myself rejecting them and settling into a more conservative ‘unaltered OT only’ position. But that doesn’t mean that I now hate the prequels or don’t like discussing them.

TLJ is fascinating because it has been so polarising. For some it is a poorly written mess and for others a work of total genius. So I just enjoy picking it apart and discussing it through the lens of my own own (and others’) certain points of view. Yes, there is an element of wheel spinning, but I think it’s less about simply hating on TLJ and more about using the polarisation a means to address the saga as a whole.

I certainly agree with your thoughts on this.

Post
#1187213
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Ms. Thrawn said:

Even if we count the prequels for fun . . . the impression I got from the original six films is that the Jedi viewed “bring balance to the Force” as “make sure the light side wins”. Whether or not that qualifies as balance is up in the air, but it at least makes sense inside the story. Luke helps turn Vader back into Anakin, who then kills the Emperor.

Then TLJ throws a monkey wrench by implying that the Force tries to balance itself between light and dark. Snoke could’ve just been sharing his weird opinion, but it goes too far in explaining Rey’s aptitude.

As far as the Force having a will? That could very well be but a superstition among Jedi and to a lesser extent Sith (who like to preach about destiny). There are ghosts living in the spiritual realm who have minds of their own, I guess. Maybe “will of the Force” is the majority vote of a ghost committee. 😛

Your interpretation of the awakening is nice and sound. I agree. 😃

I’ve always thought that in the OT the balance was waaaay off in favour of the Jedi. Sith had only two for a long time but the Jedi were legion. Vader did bring balance in that there were no Sith or Jedi…if Vader was a creation of the force as mentioned then it would imply that it does balance itself.

Post
#1187210
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

As do I. I saw SW in a theater in '77 as a 12 year old boy and haven’t looked back since. I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

When you are talking about debate among an singular group of people (mostly) as with this forum when does it become obvious that you’re just spinning your wheels and getting nowhere?

Maybe it’s just for the entertainment of debating??

Post
#1187099
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I think at some level I’m hoping to be swayed. As a fan I want to be able to keep enjoying Star Wars. If someone can offer me a better way to view aspects of the film that bug me (Holdo’s withholding information, new canon regarding the Force, Luke’s personality etc) then I’m all for it.

Thing is, those are things that are all explained in the film and have been discussed ad nauseam here. Either you buy it, or you don’t. Sounds like you don’t, and I’m not sure there’s anything that could be added to the last 241 pages that’d sway you one way or the other.

Indeed… I just don’t get why continuing to complain about the same aspects of the film they don’t like is advantageous for them…

Post
#1187096
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

Post
#1186912
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

Post
#1186660
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Gothamknight said:

Creox said:
It is the middle of the trilogy as per your last points. I didn’t expect an “end” in that respect for TLJ.

True, but there’s no reason it couldn’t have been solid, internally consistent storytelling. TLJ is no TESB, that’s for dang sure.

I liked TLJ as much as TESB. There were many who disliked the latter when it first came out as well…but no social media.
For me at least I find TLJ necessary for the future of the franchise. Not necessarily better than but needed. I personally do not want the OT V2 through V10 for the next 20 years.

Post
#1186426
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Ms. Thrawn said:

It’s a little hard to bring anything new to the discussion that hasn’t been said by a lot of other critics, but . . .

Before TLJ released, I assumed the script was in really good hands. Rian Johnson wrote Ozymandias for Breaking Bad, one of the highest rated and most praised episodes of a series in television history. People were excited that Star Wars was finally in professional hands, and we wanted to see what he could do, especially in the darker middle chapter of a trilogy.

But yikes. The story defies act structure . . . not in a Tarantino way, but in an amateurish way. There are long minutes that are superfluous and should’ve been cut. There are multiple climaxes. The rising and falling tension are more like a weird roller coaster than a satisfying build up and send off.

Kylo, Rey, and Snoke’s confrontation interspersed with the space battle should’ve been the climax, in my opinion. If you wanted to pit Luke against Kylo in a duel, all they really needed was for Luke to lift his X-Wing out of the water and fly in to join the struggle. But instead the two armies touch down on a salt planet and engage in a final showdown that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about it.

Instead of feeling excited and anxious for the good guys to win, I was feeling impatient and rather confused in those last parts.

Anyway. That’s my big picture look at the movie.

It is the middle of the trilogy as per your last points. I didn’t expect an “end” in that respect for TLJ.