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Commander Courage

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16-Aug-2004
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1-Oct-2015
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Post
#161467
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161467/action/topic#161467
Time
And where might I see this Quigon ghost scene? It sounds fr*gging awesome.
Here you go:
As for Qui-Gon in RotJ: He discovered the path to immortality, he deserves to be there. But those are the only four Jedi who should be, as none of the others learned how. This puts to rest the common "Field of Dreams" criticizm when it comes to adding Jinn to the end of Jedi. An example of how to accomplish this can be found here (created by sepharih at TF.N): http://rapidshare.de/files/3067435/Quirotj20.mov.html

"James Earl Jones Reads the Bible" is exactly what I was thinking about. I've always wanted to get it, but feared I'd get distracted from the Bible and be thinking about Star Wars the whole time. Whether it's "Padme" or "Your mother," I still think she is the approriate person to mention. She even says to Anakin in RotS, "Come away with me...etc," which is what Luke was trying to do in RotJ. This would resonate in the film much more as Padme's character (via her love) still having some influence on the saga.

Now this doesn't mean I'm not for an "Anakin..." from Obi-Wan (though it would be nice to make it verbal, not telepathic). We'll have to see how it works but there's potential there. MTH's suggestion of reordered dialogue also make the conversation more natural, not to mention accurate. I think we really should rethink the entire dialogue in the duel. Using InfoDroid's strurcture for the visual flow of things of course. This is where JEJ dialogue would really come in handy.

Yes, my thoughts exactly, however, there is no German language track for Episode I. Only Spanish. Doesn't that suck? Spanish might work. And yes, I'm confident there's enough material to spread thorughout the film.

MagnoliaFan anf Trooperman both have German copies of Episode I, which I believe they intend to use for the Nemoidians in their edits (MF is updating his prequels). Anyway, it's out there and I'm sure one of them wouldn't mind helping you out.

Furthermore, instead of Maul/Grievous being just a mindless pawn for the Trade Federation, maybe he should have his own Sith agenda. For instance, instead of him being sent in pursuit of the Queen to make her "sign the treaty", suppose he arrives on Tattooine on his own accord during his search to locate and capture this "vergence in the Force" his master has been sensing. This could be accomplished by having Maul/Grievous arrive on Tattooine even before the Jedi. Luckily, by chance and perhaps through the will of the Force, the Jedi happen to run into the boy first.

Of course, the Jedi mistakenly think he's a hired assassin (or something) after the Queen. But later, when he appears on Naboo, he's there having traced the boy to that location. He has no affiliation with the Trade Federation. His goal is to eliminate the Jedi so he can deliver the boy to his master. This keeps Anakin at the forefront of the story. Suddenly the Jedi are now protecting Anakin from the "mysterious Dark Warrior". And with the Sidious scenes removed it makes this scenario very possible.

This is a good idea, it really is. However, MTH's view of the heirarchy here was Sidious/Gunray/Maul, as it was Emperor/Tarkin/Vader in ANH. That said, Maul needs a presence with the Trade Federation. I think? Sidious is still orchestrating all of this, so Maul would no doubt be involved in his plans. That raises another question; since we're killing Gunray (if we can; we really need to work out the logistics of that), what of Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in II? "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago by the Dark Lord."
Post
#161339
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161339/action/topic#161339
Time
I'm sure Luke knew the name of his mother just like he knew the name of his father. It would be silly to not tell him/lie to him about those simple facts. It's also very probable Luke was told his father died in the Clone Wars ("he died about the same time as your father") and that his mother died in chidbirth. Anakin's fate would be as true as Obi-Wan's version of events, and there would be absolutely no reason for Owen and Beru to fabricate a story about the fate of his mother. Therefore I am confident Luke knew both his parents names and had a general idea of their fates. This would all be beside the point however if someone is able to take normal James Earl Jones audio and transform it into the Vader voice. Like I said before that would open up all kinds of possibilities for the saga, not just this change. I'm sure JEJ has said "your" and "mother" somewhere in his career. I would prefer "your mother," but I think Padme will do.

Oh and MTH, Star Wars Part II sounds like an interesting project; I'm up for any creative reimagings of Star Wars. That said, let's put that on hold until we get the "Bleu Cheese Saga" completed.
Post
#161316
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161316/action/topic#161316
Time
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
-Anyway, worse comes to worse, the line can go because Slave Trading Nemoidians are a must.

-I don't think Qui Gon should refer to these Federation types as cowards. The more respect he shows them, the more we'll feel for them.

-I'll have to paste together all the Episode I ideas that came up in the SOTD thread and sift through to create a document to add to the Bible here. I can't decide which new edit I'm most excited about. First it was ANH, then ROTJ and now TPM. What's next?

-Sounds good to me.

-Good idea, but cutting their conversation after "...keep your concentration here and now where it belongs" "Yes master" would be a rather ubrupt cut. Their stroll over the window is good for the scene, and it can be assumed that Nute is an exceptional Nemoidian. His assistants and later his brother are cowards, so I see no problem with Qui-Gon's line being a general fact about the Trade Federation.

-This thread is again a testament to the superiority of ESB.
Post
#161279
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161279/action/topic#161279
Time
Really? That's quite an unexpected source, but a genius find! Hopefully there's enough dialogue in there to spread around, because it sounds great! The only other problem I see with that is using proper names; Amidala, Jedi, Sith, etc. Perhaps the German foreign language track could serve as a companion source, as I assume it would match TPofC the best. Looking at "Balance of the Force" for inspiration, more topics of discussion for our Episode I came up:
-Are we making the TF slave traders? That was a great character change done by MagnoliaFan, but the problem I see with it is Padme later saying on Tatooine, "I can't believe there's still slavery in the galaxy." What does everyone think?
-If we wanted to include one scene with Sidious, the balcony scene with Maul/Grievous would be it. However, as it occured to me in an earlier post on the subject, it was idiotic to reveal the Sith were on Coruscant. What I suggest is that for an establishing shot of the scene we utilize the Sith Wearhouse of Episode II. Manipulate the shot using night filters, fullscreen, whatever would work so it's not the exact same shot we see in II. Then darken the Sith's suroundings on the balcony. Just a thought, as I think we should see Sidious at least once in I.
-Speaking of the Sith, are we going to go through with Darth Maul=General Grievous/Darth Grievous? I've laid out detailed plans on how to accomplish this in other threads. MTH is in agreement with me, what about the rest of the team?
Post
#161268
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161268/action/topic#161268
Time
I'm all for adding dialogue to the duel, I just don't think that's the dialogue to add. At first I thought it would be cool for Vader to say, "Again you underestimate my power!" but that's silly for 2 reasons. 1) The last time he said that, Obi-Wan chopped off his arms and legs. 2) He didn't win, Obi-Wan just gave up. I'm not sure what would be appropriate to add the th duel other than maybe a Vader grimace as he swings the killing blow.

I love the Neimoidians' voices! What is the source, because they don't sound like they came from a foreign language track. If they did all the better, because I couldn't tell and it sounded great! I'll try to come up with some dialogue for that scene.

As for Qui-Gon in RotJ: He discovered the path to immortality, he deserves to be there. But those are the only four Jedi who should be, as none of the others learned how. This puts to rest the common "Field of Dreams" criticizm when it comes to adding Jinn to the end of Jedi. An example of how to accomplish this can be found here (created by sepharih at TF.N): http://rapidshare.de/files/3067435/Quirotj20.mov.html

So something along those lines. The ideal scenario, IMO, would be have Luke see the original 3 ghosts and then join the celebration. The 3 then morph into their PT selves, with Qui-Gon joining them. Then the original final shot with the OT gang, then a NEW final show with the SAGA gang: the force spirits. I've argued many a time it would be appropriate for Padme to be there with Anakin as their love is what drove them to do what they did, and it would make Star Wars a true fairy tale ending. But I know almost no one agrees with me and even I must admit it wouldn't make much sense. At least Qui-Gon has an explainable reason to be there.
Post
#161180
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161180/action/topic#161180
Time
Here's my short list of general alterations to be made to RotJ:

RETURN OF THE JEDI
-The Imperial Fanfare from ANH is once again used as the theme for the Death Star.
-The Musical Number either heavily edited or just the original one restored.
-Maybe remove the SE Boba Fett stuff.
-Change some of Boush's lines so "Yoto" doesn't mean everything.
-Take out the burp of the big frog outside. It can still eat the lizard though.
-Dialogue change: A Jabba subtitle is added when talking to Luke. “I was killing your kind back when being a Jedi still meant something.”
-Change Boba Fett’s scream; it’s pathetic.
-Music change: When Luke and Leia talk about Padme, a light version of Across the Stars plays.
-Dialogue change: Luke and Leia’s talk about their mother. Not sure exactly how to tackle this either.
-Dialogue change: “Your mother once thought as you do.”
-Remove the plexiglass Han form the Endor Bunker explosion.
-The Duel: Re-rotoscoping lightsabers when necessary. Vader’s is often pink.
-Dialogue change: (From the radio drama, if it’ll blend in): “Thank you for becoming the man I wanted to be.” Anakin dies.
-Anakin should disappear.
-When Luke and Leia rejoin the party, Qui-Gon appears.
-Music change: End of ESB credits now ends the saga.
-Final shot of saga: The Force Spirits.

(I guess I'll get around to ESB when that film becomes a major topic in here.)
Post
#161151
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161151/action/topic#161151
Time
-- "Obi Wan once thought as you do" definitely needs to be addressed -- in ANH. THAT is an important and missing beat for the "saga." It's unnatural for Obi Wan to fight Vader and not reach out to Anakin. There are definitely ways to get that dialogue in -- Obi Wan reaches out with his feelings -- "Anakin" (stolen from ROTJ echoed dialogue -- no lip synch problems) and some version of "That name means nothing to me" from Vader. The problem with using "Padme" to address this issue is that it dodges the real issue -- Obi Wan is facing Anakin in ANH, yet he never really addresses Anakin. Further, saying "Padme" to Luke has no meaning. Luke never ever heard Padme's name. It wouldn't work.
I agree that there should be some kind of personal connection between Obi-Wan and Anakin in the duel. Since we're not trying to preserve any secrets, their dialogue could be much more open. However, if Obi-Wan truly believes Anakin has been destroyed by Vader and is irredeemable, this wouldn't matter. As for Padme, InfoDroid lays it out perfectly. Luke presents Vader with Vader the exactly the same thing Padme did to Anakin all those years ago; he would think about Padme, not Obi-Wan. This would also work nicely with Luke just asking Leia about their mother (btw, that's another point that needs to be addressed which I have no clear idea how to approach). I agree "Your mother" would sound more natural than "Padme," which is why I inquired if we have the technology to Vader-ize other JEJ dialogue from other sources. However, Padme would still work; are you suggesting Luke never learned the name of his mother? By that logic Luke never learned the name of his father until Obi-Wan said "Anakin was a good friend" in RotJ. No, surely he knew their names, and was probably told that his mother died in childbirth; no need to twist the truth about her.

Also if you'll notice in my roadmap Yoda doesn't tell Luke that "he must confront Vader," or that "only then, a Jedi will you be." After Luke says to himself, "then I am a Jedi?" Yoda continues with the "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be," etc. So yes, he is a Jedi and calls himself as such when speaking to Jabba.

-- I wish we could kill Lando/The Falcon. Definitely we must address this issue.
As Kasdan said in "Empire of Dreams," he thought someone need to die. I agree, but Lando would be too obvious. Han was who they were looking at, and Harrison Ford was all for the idea as well. But ultimately Lucas decided he wanted a happily ever after fairy tale ending. Anyway, there is really no way to accomplish this successfully as noted above: no reaction to Lando's death or the loss of the Falcon.


The "now I see a light blur" line is fine, but "I grew up here/You're gonna die here" is unnatural and unfunny. Han knows Tatooine, Luke knows Han knows. It's just bad exposition -- "Don't forget, I came from Tatooine in Episode IV."

Maybe so, I never thought about it that way.

I like some of the DH re-shuffle of my outline. I strenuously disagree with CC that the original order of the Jabba sequence flows best. It doesn't flow at all for me. It is so illogical that I can only shake my head at it. But if Chewie and Leia are captured and Han is thrown in with Chewie -- and we drop the reference that Luke is coming to save them -- then it becomes a real down beat, a real place of dramatic tension and a true continuation of ESB. Having all this before the droids walk up to the palace makes their walk much much better because now we know they're walking into real trouble. Of course we'll have to edit their dialogue, but the tension can be real now instead of being generated by the "stories I could tell you about this place."

You know, you're right. This is a much more logical sequence of events. However, this presents us with two problems: 1) Where is C-3P0 during all this? R2 is with Luke, and he's certainly not with them. Everyone else at this point is in Jabba's Palace. Are we to assume he was just waiting it out at Ben's house for Luke and R2 to return? That could work; I mean, there was no reason to bring him along, he'd be a liability in fact. 2) What about Leia being Jabba's captive? Are we to assume she was just waiting in a cell until Oola's death and Jabba needed another slave girl? That could work too I suppose. We'll have to hammer out the specifics, but breaking it down like this shows me this could indeed work.
Post
#161136
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161136/action/topic#161136
Time
I know that we're going for a totally new feel for the prequels, but I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Across the Stars in an incredible piece and one of the only themes in Episode II worth remembering/and thus keeping. Not to say your alternate suggestion is a bad idea, I'm sure with the appropriate sound quality it would fit nicely, but I see absolutely no reason to change the love theme.

Your clip also brought the subject of subtitles to my attention. You mentioned in the Ranch thread that you and InfoDroid needed to coordinate them, absolutely. May I suggest you use the same methods MagnoliaFan used in "Balance of the Force," where the new subtitles were indistinguishable from the originals. ADigitalMan's subtitles were much to large for my taste; they should never overlap on the picture when in widescreen format. That's on of the advantages to having those "annoying black bars" at the top and bottom.
Post
#161111
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161111/action/topic#161111
Time
Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.
It was in Luke's best interest. He needs to focus on becoming a Jedi, not on his father not really being dead but instead the Emperor's right hand man and exterminator of the Jedi Knights. As Yoda said in RotJ, "Not ready for the burden were you." This is why I think a Yoda/Obi-Wan exchange establishing them keeping their lineage a secret from the children is essential. Of course Obi-Wan seems to not be sure what side to take: Does he ACTUALLY believe in his "truth" that Vader destroyed Anakin? Yoda says as much in RotS: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader." Or were he and Yoda just witholding the truth and devised that as a comfortable alternate to tell Luke until the time was right. I can't answer that, but I wish things had been a bit more clear in RotJ (which is why Lucas should release the deleted scenes!).

I'd like to beef up Han's story as well, CC. The main issue is that he is played as a second banana. He doesn't get to be a rogue, really. So he comes off as immasculated somewhat. I'd like to work in more skeptical and recognizable Han material and lose some of the beats that feel "off."
Well there's certainly enough Harrison Ford material out there to throw in some alternate dialogue here and there. I wouldn't want to cut too much of what's there already though; since going through the Carbonite ordeal Han is a changed man and would naturally behave to some extenet different than before.

De-aging OT: I think using Darth Editous' version of the OT will be a perfect compromise, as I had no problems with many of the SE additions and those I did take issue with DE has removed from his version. If there's anything inparticular someone has a problem with which is still in there we should definitely discuss it though. On a related note, I think we can all agree that the lightsabers in ANH require some serious re-rotoscoping for them to match the rest of the saga. ESB and RotJ to a lesser extent, but still some improvement is needed, most notably in colors and cores which were messed up in the DVDs.

MTH, good suggestions in regards to the Tatooine sequence. Obviously this section needs a lot of reworking. I especially like:
-Jabba takes delivery of Chewbacca (cut the obvious reveal of Lando -- use his later reveal with Leia)
-Leia takes Han out of the carbonite -- caught (cut down the over-the-top humor -- keep a more ESB tone)
-The droids get reassigned (cut the "torture" of other droids -- a truly stupid idea)
-Luke USES THE FORCE to bring door down on monster.
-Tell that fat bastard he'll get no such satisfaction from us!" -- that just doesn't sound like Han Solo. Han taking the threat silently sounds more correct to my ears. Cut that in favor of going directly to Luke's threat "This is your last chance!"
Eveything else (Han/Leia reuniting, Luke/Han banter, and SE line "It's okay I can see a lot better now!" (better than "Trust me!" IMO and humorous too) I have no problems with. Also I'm not too sure about moving the droids arrival to after Chewbacca and Leia arrive. There is potential there, but I don't know if it would flow correctly.

BUT, in ROTJ Vader's line could be changed to "Padme once thought as you do." Using the "Padme" from ROTS. She was the one who felt there was still good in him. She was the one who confronted him and told him he could come back with her. Ideally, he'd say "Your Mother", but since Vader never said that, I think Padme would work just as well.

Yes, excellent! This is on my short list of general changes to make to RotJ. "Padme" would be fine, but is there no way to replicate the Vader-Voice from other JEJ dialogue? This would open up a lot more oppoertunites, for the entire trilogy.

When Luke say's to Lando and Chewie may the force be with you over the comlink as they fly off to find Han, you could dub in Luke's line from ROTJ when he says to R2 'We're going to the Dagobah system. I have apromise to keep... to an old friend'. only this time he will be speaking the line to Lando over the comlink (might even be able to find some dialogue of Lando saying 'what about you?' or something like that

This is a good idea to use Luke's RotJ line and establish that he is indeed returning to Dagobah. So I like part 1 of your suggestion, but part 2 makes his visit feel just as contrived as the original: Showing up just as Yoda dies and not receving any further training. I really think my scenario of him training on Dagobah in between films is the best way to go as it addresses several plot points and makes sense of previously confusing situations (as a lay out in my earlier post).

We could eliminate the bit where he talks Lando into taking the Falcon. Just cut in like it's the end of a conversation, and he's giving reluctant permission to use the reliable freighter, on the condition "not a scratch." I always thought it was pretty poorly written that Han changes tune so drastically in that scene.

Yes, that was such a forced friendship scene. Cuttting the beginning would no doubt improve it. No Lando dying though, for various reasons I don't have time to go into right now.

Your order of events TheDemonHunter is another interesting take (SERIOUSLY mixing things up), but again I think my initial timeline serves the story flow best. I had consdiered starting out on Dagobah originally, with maybe even cutting Vader's arrival on the Death Star entirely, but this is Star Wars: you have to start in space. And teh Vader scene is great to begin with, so that's got to start off the film.

Post
#160962
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160962/action/topic#160962
Time
Great start, InfroDroid. Your mixmatching and flipflopping of various clips was very creative and put the duel much more in line with the others we see in the OT. The music choices work perfectly in some parts, but not so much in others. The first piece of music is one of my favorite cues in RotS, when Yoda blocks Sidious and they ignite their lightsabers. Being so, I wouldn't want to repeat it again in a very similar scenario in the following film. I'm all for music alterations, but let's not be tracking ourselves note for note or we fall into the trap of AotC (and to a lesser extent RotS). One very out of place cue was the big crescendo when the droids make their way to the ship. What I liked so much about the original clip I posted was although the music jumped around, everything was appropriate for its accompanying visuals. What you've done is definitely a great groundwork, but I think we can make it even better with the right musical cues in the right places. The key thing for me really is Obi-Wan's death and the Falcon's escape. That bit was perfect on the one I posted; also TM has said he doesn't want to use that music in its place in RotS, so it wouldn't be a repeated track. I also think it should start out with low, ominous and mysterious music; obviously not the same track as used in the first clip (coming from Padme's Ruminations) but something along those lines. So take it or leave it but those or my thoughts.

And I can't tell you how pleased I am with your support of my RotJ ideas! I thought for sure someone would accuse me of heresy, but based on some of you guys' suggestions I shouldn't be surprised to be welcomed with open arms.

MTH, I'll respond more indepth to your post another time. For now though, Long Live the Ranch!
Post
#160906
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160906/action/topic#160906
Time
Warning: LONG POST

Infodroid, I accept your challenge and will present a detailed alternative to your suggested version of events:

And CC, I have some issues with your dialogue regarding Uncle Owen. The dialogue suggests that Anakin and Owen had some type of relationship, which was never touched upon in the Prequels and therefore becomes confusing to the viewer. Same with talk of a "damn-fool idealistic crusade". When did that take place? During the Clone Wars? And if it did, how did Owen know about it? See what I'm saying?

I understand where you're coming from as this is a major nitpick of fans. I see it going this way though: Obi-Wan is explaining to Luke that Owen didn't hold with Anakin's Jedi ideals, and also "Obi-Wan's damn fool idealistic crusade." In my version Ben couples those together, but we can assume he's talking about wanting to train Luke as a Jedi (thus saving the galaxy) and that's what Owen called it, hence Obi-Wan's sarcastic tone. I cut "thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved," the biggest continuity error, IMO. "I wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it." One, I changed "your father" to "I" which is actually the case. I see no problem with the line now. Two, there's a twenty year gap between RotS and ANH, surely Ben and Owen have discussed Luke in the timeframe.

I would also like to sugest trying to work in some of Luke and C-3P0's conversation about Ben while searching for Artoo in the landspeeder, from the Radio Drama; it sets up some history between Luke and Ben so we know this isn't the fist time they've encountered one another. This could be told in the longshots as they race through the desert. What about the other changes in my version? "My father didn't die in the wars..." and "What happened to the Jedi?(or something like it)?

That is what you would do. Here is what I would do. I think there is no real problem in regards to this storypoint in ANH and ESB; RotJ is what messes things up. When I edited that RotJ script with Radio Drama lines, I also changed up the order of things, as well as writing a new opening crawl. This, for me, would solve the issues created by Obi-Wan and Yoda deceiving Luke and Vader telling him the truth. What that would mean for this project is that the major story flow would stay as-is in the OT; what we are now discussing in particular, would become obsolete. Here's my proposed opening crawl and a roadmap of signifigant changes that would be made:

EPISODE VI
RETURN OF THE JEDI

A final, climactic confrontation in GALACTIC CIVIL WAR looms near. The Empire, desperate to extinguish the ever-spreading flame of rebellion, has hastened construction on its second, even more powerful Death Star.

Recognizing if completed this ultimate weapon would spell certain doom for the Alliance, the Rebellion has organized a preemptive strike against the armored battle station, preparing to go into battle with or without several of their key leaders, who on Tatooine have masterminded the rescue of Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster, Jabba the Hutt.

Having returned to the Dagobah System, Luke Skywalker is facing his final trials to become a Jedi Knight. Luke is eager to complete his training and join his friends in the effort, but has unanswered questions for his dying Jedi Master that could shatter his reality and alter the course of galactic history…

-First scene of Vader arriving on Death Star II as is.
-Wipe to Dagobah. Edit Luke and Yoda's dialogue. Scene as is until:
Luke: But...the training?
Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you that what you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi?
Yoda: Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be. The force runs strong in your family, pass on what you have learned. Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate you will.
Luke: Master Yoda... is Darth Vader my father?
Yoda: Rest I need, yes, rest.
Luke: Yoda, I must know.
Yoda: Your father he is. Told you did he?
Luke: Yes.
Yoda: Unexpected this is. And unfortunate.
Luke: Unfortunate that I know the truth?
Yoda: No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him, that incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden were you.
Luke: I'm sorry.
Yoda: Luke...there is another...Sky...walk...er.
-Luke/Obi-Wan scene as is (for now anyway). Btw, I am aware Luke has his black glove on during these scenes, but the way I see it hardly noticable clothing continuity is a small price to pay for the greater good of the story. It could also be assumed it was for his hand, like Anakin in RotS, and he removed it on Tatooine, only to have it damaged and require a covering yet again.
-Wipe to Emperor arriving on Death Star II. (This transition works really well with Obi-Wan's last line, "...but they could be made to serve the Emperor."
-Wipe to Tatooine with droids approaching Jabba's palace. Story flow as is (there will of course be many asthetic changes to this sequence). Luke's late arrival and the confused plan can be interpreted as him having to finish his training the the Rebels not being able to wait any longer, so they spring a plan to rescue Han and get back to the fleet and plan the attack on the Death Star II.
-It would be really nice to have the deleted sandstorm scene, as it presents at least SOME kind of resolution to the Han/Lando situation that was desperately needed in the film. The radio drama addresses this in a great scene with the two on the Falcon, which of course is impossible to duplicate. And that's another point; not once in RotJ do we see Han flying the Falcon. Shame. Maybe we can do something about that, a rear cockpit view of jumping into hyperspace perhaps?
-Luke would of course just meet the crew "Back at the fleet," already having dealt with his business on Dagobah in between movies and in the opening of this one.
-Wipe to first Throne Room scene on Death Star II. (This transition works really well with Vader's mention of "...a Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?", we then get to see that fleet.)
-Wipe to Rebel Alliance meeting, film continues as is (with appropriate asthetic alterations throughout).

Shuffling the basic story structure of the beginning of RotJ would not only greatly strenghten the film, but also account for the numerous nitpicks presented by its original form. Most importantly in my mind, is Luke actually completing his training on Dagobah with Yoda, and finding out about Anakin. Yes, it is a stretch to believe Luke went for almost a year without mentioning it to Yoda, but it is much more believable than him not even going back in a year, not just to complete his training but to get some answers. I think my new opening crawl does a lot for the story as well. It has been pointed out that the other 5 episodes' crawls all open with important galactic happenings. RotJ? "Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine to..." yeah, not so much. If you look at things with an open mind, this version of events deals with most of the issues that were botched or confusing in the original:
-A second Death Star? So fast?
-The rushed plan to get Han, Luke's late arrival. (sort of)
-Desperate to rescue Han before having to get back to the Rebel fleet.
-Luke completing his training and discovering the truth about his father.
-Making the film flow together much better instead of feeling like Episode 6A and Episode 6B.
These alterations already go a long way in making RotJ a much more satisfying conclusion to the Star Wars saga. I've had these ideas for a while, and am very happy to finally have a place to share them. Hopefully you'll agree with the general concepts I've presented here. For clarification, this is not taking into account any change to ANH or ESB in regards to the revelation of Luke's parantage, and is going off of the original, official events of Episodes IV and V.

One last thing, it was suggested THIS thread become the ""Bible Thread." Based on how the discussion is turning, I would agree.
Post
#160593
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160593/action/topic#160593
Time
Thanks for going to the trouble of putting that together, MTH. That gives us a better idea of how the scene would play out in your scenario. In fact you've inspired me to cook up an alternative (key line changes are in bold):

INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.

LUKE: No, my father didn't die in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals or old Obi-Wan's "damned-fool idealistic
crusade."

LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...

Ben gets up and goes to a chest where he rummages around.
Ben shuffles up and presents Luke with a short handle
with several electronic gadgets attached to it.

BEN: I have something here for you. I wanted you to have
this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it.

THREEPIO: Sir, if you'll not be needing me, I'll close down for
awhile.

LUKE: Sure, go ahead.

Ben hands Luke the saber.

LUKE: What is it?

BEN: Your fathers lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not
as clumsy or as random as a blaster.

Luke pushes a button on the handle. A long beam shoots out
about four feet and flickers there. The light plays across the
ceiling.

BEN: An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand
generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Luke hasn't really been listening.

LUKE: (alternate Luke line asking about what happened to the Jedi or Republic)

BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he
turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi
Knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

LUKE: The Force?

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.

Artoo makes beeping sounds.

BEN: Now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little
friend. And where you come from.

LUKE: I saw part of the message he was...

Luke is cut short as the recorded image of the beautiful
young Rebel princess is projected from Artoo's face.

BEN: I seem to have found it.

Luke stops his work as the lovely girl's image flickers
before his eyes.

LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone
Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in
person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission
to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital
to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2
unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid
safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour.
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

There is a little static and the transmission is cut short.
Luke has stars in his eyes.

BEN: You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to
Alderaan.

LUKE: (laughing) Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan. I've got to go
home. It's late, I'm in for it as it is.

BEN: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
for this sort of thing.

LUKE: I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like
the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right
now. It's such a long way from here.

BEN: That's your uncle talking.

LUKE: (sighing) My uncle! How am I ever going to explain
this?

BEN: Learn about the Force, Luke.

LUKE: Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a
transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going.

BEN: You must do what you feel is right, of course.

I had originally intented to keep the original flow of the scene starting with the message, but found it much easier to begin the scene with Luke's altered line which has us assume Ben tells him his father died in the Clone Wars. Also I'm sure with all the Mark Hamill dialogue out there we can find something to plug into the "How did my father die" spot, particularly from the Radio Dramas. I'm going to go through those again pretty soon to see how else they can be utilized for our saga editions.
Post
#160586
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160586/action/topic#160586
Time
Yeah, I don't know what it is about my posts in here; they just keep getting overlooked. No big deal though, after a couple of reiterations my points get mentioned anyway.

I'm glad you liked my suggestion about revealing the truth to Luke on Dagobah before the leaves for Bespin. That, IMO, would be the most logical place for Ben and Yoda to tell him. He's nearly completed his training and is off to face Vader and save his friends. He deserves to know what he's up against. Did the Jedi think Vader wouldn't tell Luke he was his father, as they must have assumed Vader was aware of Luke's identity by then. Yoda does say in RotJ, "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate," so I guess they did. This takes care of the numerous issues of Luke knowing in ANH and early ESB. Luke's behavior towards Vader on Bespin could go either way, then at the end of the duel he would find out anyway, so the flow of Luke's character wouldn't be disrupted as it would be if we have dozens of scenes with Luke knowing Darth Vader is his father but not reacting to or doing anything about it. To be honest I think the saga would be alright the the revelation going down the way it already does, but if not, this would be the preferable alternative. The biggest challenge here would be Luke's reactions. If only he had worn his orange jumpsuit in RotJ...

In regards to a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread, I am in agreement that we are in need of one, but how would we make sure to make it different from the threads for the specific movies? Surely the two would overlap? Like I said I'm all for it; I just want to know how exactly we should seperate the discussions from then on.
Post
#160556
Topic
Empire '97 SE
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160556/action/topic#160556
Time
Ian was great as Palpatine, and continued to be so in the PT, so I'm very happy with Lucas' decision to have him play the part. However, I've always wondered this and have never gotten a real answer, why did Lucas change Emperors between ESB and RotJ? I understand the logistics behind recreating the Emperor as he was presented in Empire, but surely Clive Rivell could have returned with a make up job similar to Ian's. He would have been a very different Emperor, but it would have been interesting to see nonetheless. Lucas knew the Emperor was going to appear "in the flesh" at some point; he should have planned accordingly. I just don't understand what prompted him to change actors.
Post
#160325
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160325/action/topic#160325
Time
InfoDroid:
Your clip of Ben's Hut was fantastic and is in some ways reminscent of what I'd like to show when I get to ROTJ in my project. I agree with MTH that showing the mechanical hand was pure genius at that point. Too cool to be believed. I may not agree with all the content, but the way you put it all together was very well done.

I also like the concepts of what was shown in the duel clip you showed us. Very interesting indeed, and it does help to tie things together thematically. It may have been a bit rough, but the ideas show through very well and make things more interesting, I think.

Yes, as much as I disagree with flashbacks and the like, you did a great job and accomplished what you were going for. The mechanical arm was also my favorite bit. I'm very open to whatever works at this point, but I must insist on no flashbacks. You mentioned TM's II and III having them, but those would be dream sequences, not actual cuts to footage from the other films.

As for restructuring Ben's Hut scene, putting Leia's message first was exactly what I was going to suggest. This was the way the scene was originally shot, but Lucas thought something wasn't right about them receiving such an urgent message and then sitting around and discussing the past instead of getting a move on. While that decision has it's merit, I think the original flow of the scene will work best in our edit. There is one line in Leia's message that we might need to tweak: "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." Not exactly. And hey, while we're at it, what do you guys think about de-pluralizing Clone War in Luke and Leia's mentions of them? There was only one after all.

And I said where the duel clip came from: Darth Qui-Gon at the Jedi Council Boards at TF.N (yes I do lurk there from time to time). I'm looking forward to your version InfoDroid, but may I reiterate a couple of points from my original post?
1-The part with the really slow fencing and stabbing should be cut entirely.
2-The shot of Vader saying, "You should not have come back" should be reversed (his chestplate is backwards). This also means it needs to be moved to later in the duel to account for his position on the other side of the hallway. I think this is good because it will break up the dialouge more.

Finally, thanks for all the input, TheDemonHunter. Your project is equally ambitious, and I especially can't wait for the "migraine maker."
Post
#160125
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160125/action/topic#160125
Time
Right THX, that's just what I suggested:
The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."
Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

We were all posting at once and I think mine got lost in the shuffle so I'm glad you mentioned that again.

And yes MTH, you need to start that Episode I thread ASAP!
Post
#160110
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160110/action/topic#160110
Time
Getting this thread back on track:

Originally posted by: Trooperman
Would anyone like to have a stab at writing the second Lama-Su scene right now? It looks as though Nanner Split is ready to record soon. Here are my plans

-Boba Fett is Jango's natural son.
-The scene starts with Lama-Su saying, "Moral implications? I should have expected something like that from a Jedi." (laughs). "Oh...we don't concern ourselves with that here, Kenobi." Obi-Wan: I see.
-Lama-Su rambles on about the growth acceleration and all the other delightful details of the cloning operation (like the guy in "Brave New World") while Obi-Wan is mostly silent. “Lama-Su: Otherwise, a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow. Obi-Wan: Really.” (unimpressed and a little sarcastic. Lama-Su ignores him.) “Now we can do it in half the time.” Obi-Wan is silent.

These are pretty much the only restrictions. Remember, Obi-Wan is for the most part silent and not happy about the clones, and Lama-Su is rambling like the guy in Brave New World. He can say whatever we want, being redubbed.

I haven’t seen “The Island,” but it being about cloning perhaps Ewan has some dialogue that would be applicable in this scene?
Post
#160090
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160090/action/topic#160090
Time
TO COMMANDER COURAGE: I love you because you rarely agree with anything. That's why you're so valuable to this team, it pushes us to think of something better. By the way, that ROTJ radio drama stuff is GREAT! We have to use it. Is that available on CD?
Thank you, that's quite a compliment. And yes, all 3 Radio Dramas are available on CD. I have them on copied cassette tapes though, so I will be of no use to you in your search for sources.

I understand what you're saying, but why don't we just give it a chance and see what we can come up with, see how far we can push it? If, in the end, we decide it was the wrong decision, then we can always pull it back to something more along the lines of what TheDemonHunter suggested above.
After all it's better to work out your ideas in full now than do all the work and then find they don't work.
But to go the route of more justification ("know their true lineage they cannot...") or to just avoid the issue until Vader reveals it to Luke has to be considered a back-up plan until it's proven that this cannot work -- at least in my opinion.

This pretty much summarizes my stance on this for the time being. I'm pleasantly surprised everyone seems to like my suggested Yoda dialogue. I wasn't really thinking of that in terms of an edit, rather "I wish they would have done this in the movie." Now the question is whether we can cobble something together along those lines for RotS. Our deleted scenes with Yoda will be an invaluble source, but if there's not enough Frank Oz material, we can always grab some Grover lines from Sesame Street.

The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

Forgive me, but I didn't really care for the execution of the clip you posted. The music was too loud, for one thing. It was too fractured and didn't seem to flow musically. BUT, what I DID like was when Vader telepathically called Luke to "Come with me". That was rather creepy. I might use it.

NO! That's the one thing I DIDN'T like. Hahaha, this is so true about my tendency to disagree. But no, Vader should not know who Luke is at this point, and Ben's "Run Luke, run!" is essential. As for the specifics of the clip, yes it is very rough, and obviously the editor did not have top of the line tech. However I thought many of the music cues were great. The Force theme when Obi-Wan speaks of immortality (though Hardcore Legend' suggestion may indeed be superior), the transition from there back into Battle of the Heroes as their sabers clash again, and the crescendo into the Duel of the Fates sounding clip of BotH during the longshot of their surprisingly rapid bit of fencing. Then of course the music accompanying Obi-Wan death and the escape from the Death Star is amazing, much more appropriate than the sped-up Princess Leia's theme used original.
Post
#159966
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159966/action/topic#159966
Time
My biggest problem with the idea of Obi-Wan telling Luke exactly what happened to Anakin in the very beginning is Luke's reaction. He just stares at Old Ben dumbfounded as he reveals that his father's not really dead, but an agent of evil responsible for the extermination of the Jedi order. And oh, by the way, here's his lightsaber: you should have it. I appreciate what we're trying to do here with Obi-Wan's character, but it's just not going go smoothly, and will create more problems than it solves. I had hoped at the end of RotS that Yoda would tell Obi-Wan, "Tell the children of their true parantage we must not, Obi-Wan. Better they believe a different truth than the terrible one that is. Confuse them it will, and lead them on a path to darkness. Until the time is right, unaware they must be." Or something along those lines to get the point across that Yoda and Obi-Wan had their reasons for keeping Anakin=Vader a secret, and planned to reveal it to them at the proper time. Seriously, if you were Obi-Wan, and you want Luke to join you, but he asks about his father. What do you tell him, that his old man was a good friend and student of his before turning evil, betraying the Jedi, and become the second evilist man in the galaxy? Yeah, that would go over well.
Post
#159946
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159946/action/topic#159946
Time
Good news! With a little more effort I found my altered RotJ script incorporating dialogue from the Radio Drama. Here are the scenes I suggested be altered, the new dialogue being in bold:

Too late. The Wookiee has already pulled the animal from the
stake. SPROOING! The group finds itself hanging upside down in an
Ewok net, suspended high above the clearing. Artoo lets out a
wild series of beeps and whistles, and Chewie howls his regret.
Their bodies are a jumble in the net. Han removes a Wookiee paw
from his mouth.

THREEPIO
One would suppose a 220 year old Wookie to have learned a measure of self-restraint.

HAN
What are you telling them?

THREEPIO
Hello, I think... I could be mistaken.
These creatures seem to call themselves Ewoks. And I do believe they think I am some sort of god.

Suddenly all activity stops as LOGRAY, the tribal Medicine Man,
comes out of the big hut. He examines the captives carefully,
goes to join Threepio, whose throne has been placed on an
elevated platform. A larger, gray-haired Ewok, CHIEF CHIRPA, is
examining Luke's lightsaber with great curiosity.

THREEPIO
As I understand it Master Luke, the forest has been invaded by Stormtroopers. The Ewoks presume you to be enemies.


HAN
What did he say?

THREEPIO
I'm rather embarrassed, General Solo, but it
appears you are to be the main course at a
banquet in my honor.

Shot of ARTOO.

THREEPIO
And you Artoo are to be reclaimed for useable scrap.

Another Shot of Artoo-he is displeased.


At the end of it, the Chief, Logray, and the elders confer, then
nod in agreement. The Chief stands and makes a pronouncement.

LUKE (OS)
What are they saying Threepio?

THREEPIO
The Ewoks want to know where they fit into the story Sir. Myth and life are strongly intertwined with Ewoks. If I make them part of the tale, it will in their minds make them part of the Rebellion”

LUKE (OS)
Do it Threepio.

Threepio says more Ewokese, including them in the story.

That strengthens the Ewoks characterwise I think, giving them reasons for their actions. Also I thought it would be nice to throw that reference to Chewbacca's age in there just for the fun of it.