In your break-down of the offical scenario, there is no doubt Lucas left himself some plotholes. What else is new? I've read that in early screening of TPM, Qui-Gon's body did indeed dissapear in the fire. This would be something to consider, but then what about everyone watching? Surely now that it's been established Jedi DON'T dissapear, there would be some sort of reaction if Jinn did. Anakin SHOULD have dissapeared, it even says he did in the Star Wars Databank, but Lucas' offical explanation (at least in The Annotated Screenplays) is that Obi-Wan and Yoda caught him on the other side. Of course he also said the "real" reason was that we wanted all the heroes of the PT to be together again, which is why I'm all for adding Qui-Gon (and maybe even Padme) to RotJ. But that discussion is for another time. But Anakin dissapearing is definitely something I would change; he's the Chosen One, that's explanation enough.
And while I do indeed support expanding Qui-Gon's role, it would be in a different way that Obi-Wan's life after death, as MTHaslett already pointed out. The problem with what I think you were getting at, TM, was that there can be no conversaions between Qui-Gon and the characters. This puts him in a very similar position as Obi-Wan in ANH after his death. He communicates with Luke in extreme moments, but they aren't chatting it up and we don't have Luke questioning how he's talking to him. In fact, Luke seems to not believe it himself at first. Here are some places I think dialogue from Qui-Gon would be approriate and meaningful:
-At some point during the space battle, when Anakin fires the torpedoes into the reactor for example, have Qui-Gon in his head: "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." Qui-Gon is straddling life and death here, so this could be interpreted as either a rememberance (he told Anakin this before the pod race), Force user-to-Force user communication (Luke and Vader at the end of ESB), or advice from the netherworld (Obi-Wan in ANH).
-When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit, have Qui-Gon is his head: "Always be mindful of your surroundings." Then he remembers Jinn's lightsaber is still there and leaps up to kill Maul. That could be interpreted as the latter two options from above.
-I thought about having Qui-Gon die after "Promise me you will train the boy," (assumming you would keep that line), then have "He will bring balance. Train him," echo in the long shot, in Obi-Wan's head I assume. But that might be a little weird.
-I mentioned this before, but perhaps have some of Qui-Gon's tone poem in Anakin's head at the funeral. "It will be a hard life. One without reward, without remorse, without regret." This would tie-in with the dream in your Episode 2, but again it might be a bit out of place.
-Qui-Gon dissapearing in the fire? Again, logically there would be some kind of reaction/response, so I'd say leave this as-is.
-Qui-Gon starts off the dream in SotDS.
-You know thinking about it, maybe we could weave a sub-plot here of Qui-Gon being responsible for Anakin's nightmares, trying to warn him about the future. He always starts off Anakin's dreams, and in RotS they could be continual visions with not only Padme, but maybe a glimpse of Vader and his future evil? Just a thought; not sure if/how that would work.
-Some kind of dialogue alteration after the Tusken massacare. Replacing the "NO!" first and foremost. Getting two different "Anakin"s would be nice too, making it seem less like a cut and paste job. Any additional stuff you can think of.
-So Qui-Gon in Anakin's Episode 3 visions is a possibility.
-A prefect line that could go several places (from Batman Begins): "Your anger gives you great power but [if you let it] it will destroy you." The place I have in mind of it is when Anakin looks into the suns on Mustafar, before he sheds a tear.
-Reconstructing the Yoda scene in some way. What I think everyone is forgetting is that they still need the Yoda part, which will never be released. And since it all has to be pieced together from different sources anyway, alter and expand it to not only explain the secret of immortality, but Qui-Gon expresses some responsibility for what happened in regards to Anakin.
-After Obi-Wan says "Qui-Gon!", maybe a line or two from Jinn would be appropriate. No "Teach you how to commune with him, I will," rather something from Qui-Gon along the lines of, "Yes Obi-Wan. I will guide you..."
-Considering this last scene, Obi-Wan should not hear from Qui-Gon after he has officially died. This leaves my first two suggestions possible, and reserves surprise for Obi-Wan in RotS. That works very well considering there's not many quiet moments for him to hear Qui-Gon in the first place.
“Qui-Gon dissapearing in the fire? Again, logically there would be some kind of reaction/response, so I'd say leave this as-is.”
“in early screening of TPM, Qui-Gon's body did indeed dissapear in the fire. This would be something to consider, but then what about everyone watching? Surely now that it's been established Jedi DON'T dissapear, there would be some sort of reaction if Jinn did.”
This is a good idea, though- Qui-Gon could disappear in the fire like Anakin was supposed to in ROTJ. This didn’t occur to me. About the reaction? I could probably find a way around this, like…camera pans over to Palpatine, who is staring ahead at something (longer than he was in the original). The scene ends with a shot of the fire, only…Qui-Gon has completely disappeared. CUT to celebration.
This does many things. We don’t have to deal with the reaction of the crowd, because the scene ends with the disappearance. We know that Palpatine saw what had happened and is disturbed by it (as well as the loss of his apprentice). And best of all, we know Qui-Gon actually disappears in the fire and becomes one with the force. I just don’t like the idea that Qui-Gon died, and somehow after he was dead he managed to find out how to come back as a ghost in his original form. I like the idea that during his life, he worked towards discovering this secret so that when he died, he was able to fade away. It was a result of his brilliance and hard work in life.
“Anakin SHOULD have dissapeared”
Yes, but if I’m not mistaken, I believe his physical face was visible during the burning scene. I would have to check on that.
“The problem with what I think you were getting at, TM, was that there can be no conversaions between Qui-Gon and the characters.”
Right. It can’t be like Empire; it has to be like SW when Obi-Wan spoke up at emotional high points.
“At some point during the space battle, when Anakin fires the torpedoes into the reactor for example, have Qui-Gon in his head: "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." Qui-Gon is straddling life and death here, so this could be interpreted as either a rememberance (he told Anakin this before the pod race), Force user-to-Force user communication (Luke and Vader at the end of ESB), or advice from the netherworld (Obi-Wan in ANH).”
Yes- I LOVE this idea. Anakin goes from not having a clue what he’s doing the whole time to not having a clue until he hears Qui-Gon. Then, he has control. Great parallel to SW, also.
“When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit, have Qui-Gon is his head: "Always be mindful of your surroundings." Then he remembers Jinn's lightsaber is still there and leaps up to kill Maul. That could be interpreted as the latter two options from above.”
Good idea to have some Qui-Gon dialogue there- however, when I get to Ep. I, I’ll probably think about using some other dialogue there that works better dramatically. You never know…
“I thought about having Qui-Gon die after "Promise me you will train the boy," (assumming you would keep that line), then have "He will bring balance. Train him," echo in the long shot, in Obi-Wan's head I assume. But that might be a little weird.”
That would probably come off as weird style-wise. However, I like the idea of him dying after saying “Promise me you will train the boy.” I could possibly manipulate dialogue to make him say, “The boy will bring balance. Promise me you will train him.” Anyway, plenty of time to think about that.
“I mentioned this before, but perhaps have some of Qui-Gon's tone poem in Anakin's head at the funeral. "It will be a hard life. One without reward, without remorse, without regret." This would tie-in with the dream in your Episode 2, but again it might be a bit out of place.”
Maybe, but less so than the previous example. This could work, but I’d have to test it multiple ways.
“You know thinking about it, maybe we could weave a sub-plot here of Qui-Gon being responsible for Anakin's nightmares, trying to warn him about the future. He always starts off Anakin's dreams, and in RotS they could be continual visions with not only Padme, but maybe a glimpse of Vader and his future evil? Just a thought; not sure if/how that would work.”
Ha ha- I know how it would work. After I read that, I realized how this would work. And it’s going to be so spectacularly creepy that I don’t even want to give it away yet. I will say that this will work VERY well and will make the story that much richer. Also, think “Vertigo” again (although that probably won’t help.) Anyway, thank you for some MAJOR inspiration.
“Some kind of dialogue alteration after the Tusken massacare. Replacing the "NO!" first and foremost. Getting two different "Anakin"s would be nice too, making it seem less like a cut and paste job. Any additional stuff you can think of.’
Yeah, I’m not sure about that yet, but something is guaranteed to be different about this.
“A prefect line that could go several places (from Batman Begins): "Your anger gives you great power but [if you let it] it will destroy you." The place I have in mind of it is when Anakin looks into the suns on Mustafar, before he sheds a tear.”
Very good idea. I can definitely use that line at some point. Also, thinking ahead to that scene, as much as everyone praises the music for that scene as being the highest emotional point for them, etc. etc- I really don’t like it, believe it or not. It was interesting the first time because it was a novel and completely different approach, but I would like to rescore this with something more sad/beautiful in romantic style. This will likely be an unpopular change- oh, well.
“Reconstructing the Yoda scene in some way. What I think everyone is forgetting is that they still need the Yoda part, which will never be released. And since it all has to be pieced together from different sources anyway, alter and expand it to not only explain the secret of immortality, but Qui-Gon expresses some responsibility for what happened in regards to Anakin.”
I’m probably not going to be able to do this myself. If MagnoliaFan or AdigitalMan want to take a stab at it, then perhaps I can use the scene if it works out in their versions. But I don’t know how to go about replacing both Yoda and Qui-gon dialogue.
“After Obi-Wan says "Qui-Gon!", maybe a line or two from Jinn would be appropriate. No "Teach you how to commune with him, I will," rather something from Qui-Gon along the lines of, "Yes Obi-Wan. I will guide you..."
This is more likely what I’ll do with this. Maybe I could even put some kind of non-talking on-screen Qui-Gon ghost image by Yoda. I do agree that actually seeing Qui-Gon after he dies in Ep. I would really drive the point home, and things would make much more sense.
Hi there! If I were to put an image of Qui-Gon in the Mustafar scene, he would not talk. He would shimmer in the background maybe, but he would not talk to Anakin. More likely than actually putting his ghost there would be to have Anakin cry out for Qui-Gon’s help as he burns. Qui-Gon doesn’t answer as Anakin screams in pain and calls for Qui-Gon. I can do this due to the dubbing. This would bring up a bunch of interesting Biblical parallels that I don’t want to discuss now Good idea, though. Oh, and by the way- I HATE midichlorians with a passion and they will not be included in my saga.
MtHaslett- I Understand where you’re coming from, too. It’s not that the simple interpration is incorrect, it’s just that it’s a stretch and it doesn’t seem to be enough. What has actually gone on with the force ghosts is not explained well at all through the six movies, and elaborating on it serves many purposes. It makes for an overall richer story and also works very well dramatically (Qui-Gon communicating with Anakin and Obi-Wan in Ep. I, Qui-Gon somehow trying to interfere with Palpatine’s dreams and adding his own messages to them.
“What advice from Qui Gon would make Ep II better?”
“If you add Qui-Gon throughout Ep I, II, and III as a voice offering advice and such, you'll be creating more questions than you answer for me.”
Right- but the only time Qui-Gon shows up in Episode II is 1. At the beginning of the dream, and 2. After the Tusken slaughter. In Episode I, he is not dead until the end. Therefore, anything that he says could be interpreted as memories or as direct communication using the force. And in III, his words echo through Anakin’s head, much like Palpatine’s did at the beginning. And then of course we have the ending. So this isn’t creating any questions for me- throughout the PT, Qui-Gon voice keeps coming back. He isn’t watching everything and commenting on everything, saying “Don’t kiss that girl!” “Palpatine is a Sith lord!” etc. You remember that in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan was allowed to do some things and not others (like giving Luke advice when he fought Vader and the Emperor). Even Yoda was restricted in this way.
MTH:
While I can't say I follow the reasoning that because the Force ghosts aren't spelled out that the movies are less rich or that explaining where they come from (or, in the case of having Qui Gon disappear in the fire) making them common place does anything to enrich things -- I can't say the changes you suggest really bother me. I don't see leaving things as they are as any sort of stretch. These movies have a religion -- THE FORCE. Many movies have regligion in them, and the good ones don't spend a lot of time explaining away the mysteries that make their particular religion work. It would be one thing if we didn't understand how Luke could possibly fire a torpedo into the ventilation shaft, but if we need to explain how Obi Wan disappeared, we might as well have an explanation for how Luke had a sword fight with Darth Vader on Degobah. Just my opinion.
Commander Courage:
I really don't know about Qui-Gon disspearing in the fire. My reasoning is the same as yours, "I just don’t like the idea that Qui-Gon died, and somehow after he was dead he managed to find out how to come back as a ghost in his original form. I like the idea that during his life, he worked towards discovering this secret so that when he died, he was able to fade away." But something as significant as that would surely be worth a mention, which of course would be absent. All that aside, if you're going to go for it, showing Qui-Gon dissapear on-screen is the way to do it. If not, it's TOO ambiguous. So in the final shot of Qui-Gon burning, he would fade away, then Yoda and Mace discuss the Sith, omninous shot of Palpatine, cut to end celebration. Of course, we have plenty of time to work this out. Btw, all you can see in RotJ is Vader's burning armor, no physical Anakin.
Sluggo:
1. The body of Qui-Gon can not dissappear. As it has been mentioned, this would create more problems than it would fix. In addition, Yoda and Obi-wan pretty much evaporated soon as they were dead. If this is the norm, then he would have to dissappear in Obi-wan's arms in the reactor room. Otherwise, he'd still be alive when they put him on the pyre and would have died in the flames.
2. I've been trying to talk somebody into re-editing the Anakin destroying the Droid Control Ship for quite a while. Having Qui-gon speak to Anakin through the Force is the way the movie needed to end up. The allusion to Luke destroying the Death Star would be perfect. The only problem would be that in the final edit, Qui-Gon is still alive. He dies after Anakin destroys the ship. Having Qui-Gon 'communicate' with Anakin while he is still alive seems problematic. Moving the scenes around fix the problem. Incidentally, the revised 3rd draft has Qui-Gon dying before Anakin does his stuff.
3. As far as having Gui-gon communicate with Anakin or Obi-wan later in the movies....I think I'd leave the communication to a minimum. Qui-gon is a prequel character. If he is talking to everybody and appearing to everybody, then there's no reason for him not to be in the classic trilogy. If I had him appear, I'd have him only at the very end of the movie, As Obi-wan is walking back to the Eeopie. He'd appeas as Obi-wan walks towards him.
Trooperman:
1. I see what you're saying, but...could someone explain to me again what happened with Darth at the end of ROTJ? We're going on the original Sebastian Shaw scenario, by the way.
2. Absolutely- this has been brought up before and you don't need to convince me a bit. When I FINALLY get to Episode I in a couple years, then this is sure to happen.
3. I'm not sure about cutting the communication, because I do think Qui-Gon is an important character and needs to be somewhat more involved, if he has retained his identity. But that's a VERY interesting idea, showing the ghost of Qui-Gon at the end of the film, almost like the end of ROTJ. That would tie things up very, very nicely. So what we would have in my PT is: Qui-Gon dies. Then, he helps Anakin destroy the Control Ship (like Obi-Wan in original SW). Qui-Gon doesn't have any contact with Obi-Wan (until the very end, when Obi-Wan sees his master at the end of the film), but Qui-Gon continues to be in touch with Anakin, through dreams and whatnot. This would make sense because he did this immediately after dying in Ep. I. Then, Yoda does NOT make the casual comment about communing with Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon simply appears to Obi-Wan at the end, kind of de-emphasizing the "learning" part of becoming a ghost and still retaining some mystery. What do you guys think? I'm very happy with this particular solution.
TheDemonHunter:
I'd have to agree with all of you here, if we're all on the same page with this. I really believe the PT did too much to take away the mystery of the Force by giving too many explanations (ie. midichlorians... *shudders, trying not to wretch*) and leaving it as you've described here would fit the mythos far better, IMHO. Using Qui-Gon in this way is sort of like giving another parallel to the OT, as Qui-Gon dies before giving Anakin his complete training and then he is trained by another, just as Luke loses Obi-Wan before much training can be done, only to have his training passed off to another (Yoda in this case). The continued edits would really would drive home not only the similarities of the two generations of Skywalkers, but also the differences, as we see Luke resist the Emperor where Anakin couldn't. They seem so much on the same path in ANH/TPM and ESB/AOTC, only to find their ultimate failings or victories in ROTJ/ROTS. Giving Anakin the same guidance as Luke had will surely underline the fact that they can and should have been done as two sides of the same coin instead of the vastly different characters shown in the OT and PT. Shame on Lucas for not seeing this the way we do. lol
Personally I was talking about both! There are parallels with both scenarios, but in particular Luke and Anakin's position as they lay dying in extreme cold and heat respectively. If Qui-Gon's spirit were to appear it would then mirror Hoth much more than Cloud City.
