Collipso

Regarding characters, I really like Poe, he has been my favorite character in the ST ever since TFA, and I’m glad he got developed even further in this movie.
Kylo Ren also gets a good share of character development, so he’s for sure second favorite.
Finn is not that interesting to me, and poor Rey in my eyes is nothing but a unrealistically overpowered character, which makes her boring.

I’m still not sure what to think about Luke’s arc in this movie though.

Too bad we lost DrDre, he was articulating a lot of what I think of the movie in more coherent ways.

KILLOFFPOE said:

• Luke senses dark side in Kylo. Rashômon Saber scene from TLJ.
• Kylo blows up the temple.
• Kylo already pretty strong in the force. Thinks he can be his own teacher. Anakin vibes, wanting to be a Master.
• Starts teaching his own disciples, the Knights of Ren
• Can’t learn from Luke, so goes towards Vader instead.
• Joins up with small band of imperial remnant called the First Order, lead by Hux.
• Hux distrusting of Kylo for his “ancient religion” + family.
• Kylo more interested in Force related power/research than Empire building.
• Kylo kills Hux in the Throne room to seize command of the First Order. Unclear what he’ll do with it.
• Invites Rey to join him in researching the Force from a lightside/darkside perspective, not just being evil. Links up with what Luke has been telling Rey about ending the Jedi.

There. We’re back to beginning of TFA/TLJ with no Snoke at all.

Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

You might’ve written Hux instead of Snoke in a few places mate.

adywan said:

One thing i thought of recently (not sure if anyone else has posted about this before, so i apologise if they have) is why would the First Order make themselves look so much like the Empire, their ships etc? Well it started me thinking, it’s all about Snoke and Kylo. Snoke plays on Kylo’s wish to be a powerful as his Grandfather. Snoke feeds off this desire as a way to control Kylo and get him to do his bidding. What better way to do it than to have Kylo constantly reminded of the Empire that is grandfather was the Emperors right hand man. He plays himself off like an Emperor figure. Having Kylo as his apprentivce directly mirrors Palpatine and Vader and feeds into this desire.

And we see in TJL that he constantly derides him about not being anywhere near as good as Vader. This makes Kylo want to prove himself. He even has an updated version of his Grandfathers TIE fighter. All to feed into the wanting of Kylo.

That’s just my theory anyway 😉

It’d make sense, but something inside me wishes that we had entirely new ship designs and cruiser designs and such. Still though, the way they constructed Kylo Ren’s character made sense for the visuals to still be the same. Well put Adywan.

Ryan said:

Collipso said:

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.

No, just saying that Star Wars takes place in another galaxy with 100% aliens.

And so what?

Also, watching the OT, don’t really see in those movies where all these “women” humanoids should have all shown up in? Death Star, Dagoba, Endor?

Maybe because the movies were made in the late 70’s or early 80’s?

Are you seriously trying to argue that a male-dominated galaxy was supposed to be part of the story?

I’ve watched the OT over 10 times and I’ve never once asked myself where are the crowds of women at. Most of the movies are a battle scene, and it seems like most of the “aliens” that we can see in the flesh are creatures and robots.

Do you really want to have scenes of families in the Death Star and say on Hoth and Endor? Like a scene with a Storm Trooper on the Death Star goes to his quarters and complains to his wife about something Vader said?

I’m guessing you’re a white male so you never felt misrepresented. I bet the rest of the world did.
The point they’re trying to make is that nobody cared about women being represented, so they (creative minds behind the original trilogy) created worlds where it would be inconvenient for women to show up in, because it didn’t even cross their minds while they were making the OT that women should be represented too.

Edit: I don’t blame them though, specifically Lucas. He was just a rich white guy making movies about white guys with their cars and white cowboys, farmers and samurai in space.

If Star Wars was originally made in Mexico or South America, then they’d all be Hispanic. If in China or Japan, then Asian. If in South Korea, then Vietnamese. If Africa, then all or mostly black.

Really don’t understand what you mean the rest of the world probably felt underrepresented in an American made movie based in another galaxy with 100% aliens?

Yep, that’s what I said. Lucas was just a white American guy making white American guys’ movies, and I’m ok with that. In a way it has more depth to it than with the crazy inclusion thing that’s going on these days. It feels mass produced, but eh what can we do about it.

I honestly didn’t like any of the lightsaber effects or screen wipes in this movie. The lightsabers’ glow felt weak or “off” and the wipe transitions too fast.

NeverarGreat said:

Collipso said:

ChainsawAsh said:

HerekittykittyX said:

Just one change to the Luke projection sequence make Luke’s lightsaber green instead of blue throw the audience off

You’d need to change the hilt to the ROTJ one too, then. I’m actually not against the idea if it can be done, but the hilt definitely needs to change if the blade color is changed.

The legend of Luke Skywalker, as he wanted to appear, used the blue lightsaber. The green one was only known by his Jedi apprentices, Kylo, Vader, Ben, Yoda and the Emperor.
At least that’s how I interpreted it. To that specific moment, the blue lightsaber had more weight.

That doesn’t make much sense, since the green one is presumably the one he used throughout the years after ROTJ, when his legend grew.

I could see him using the blue one because it is a reminder to Ren that he’s unworthy of his grandfather’s blade, but that’s about it.

I suppose it’s because the general public knows that lightsaber more as Luke’s lightsaber than the other one. That’s how I think it goes IRL and possibly in universe too for some reason. Actually lots of times when I go buy “Luke’s lightsaber” it’s the TESB and SW one with a green blade. Go figure.

But yeah, legend Luke’s saber would be green.

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.

No, just saying that Star Wars takes place in another galaxy with 100% aliens.

And so what?

Also, watching the OT, don’t really see in those movies where all these “women” humanoids should have all shown up in? Death Star, Dagoba, Endor?

Maybe because the movies were made in the late 70’s or early 80’s?

Are you seriously trying to argue that a male-dominated galaxy was supposed to be part of the story?

I’ve watched the OT over 10 times and I’ve never once asked myself where are the crowds of women at. Most of the movies are a battle scene, and it seems like most of the “aliens” that we can see in the flesh are creatures and robots.

Do you really want to have scenes of families in the Death Star and say on Hoth and Endor? Like a scene with a Storm Trooper on the Death Star goes to his quarters and complains to his wife about something Vader said?

I’m guessing you’re a white male so you never felt misrepresented. I bet the rest of the world did.
The point they’re trying to make is that nobody cared about women being represented, so they (creative minds behind the original trilogy) created worlds where it would be inconvenient for women to show up in, because it didn’t even cross their minds while they were making the OT that women should be represented too.

Edit: I don’t blame them though, specifically Lucas. He was just a rich white guy making movies about white guys with their cars and white cowboys, farmers and samurai in space.

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

Wasn’t he talking about Snoke??

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

I don’t think i am gonna respond to this

Why? Apparently I misunderstood what you were trying to say with your previous post, so could you please enlighten me?

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

Strawman argument. This was not remotely argued. No one said TLJ was extremely original, and no one is worshipfully singing Rian Johnson’s praises.

Actually the originality of the scene was questioned and one of the defending arguments (from what I understood) was that Rey was interrogated by Snoke, while this never happened in the original version of the scene, therefore making the TLJ scene original.
The second part I was simply trolling and being sarcastic, I am sorry if I came off as a dick.
But it wasn’t an example of the strawman fallacy.

NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

Not with Rey though. Her only flaw is being a nobody and that’s not a flaw at all. Maybe you could make a case for her being an idealist but she’s never even punished or suffers for any of her choices, and that’s not necessarily a flaw either. Her character is still almost the same character she was at the beginning of TFA, except that now she’s a lot more powerful, without any real explanation as to how. One of the few differences between TLJ Rey and TFA Rey is that she cares about the cause and about 2 or 3 people, but that’s it. I just can’t see Rey as a compelling character.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

ChainsawAsh said:

HerekittykittyX said:

Just one change to the Luke projection sequence make Luke’s lightsaber green instead of blue throw the audience off

You’d need to change the hilt to the ROTJ one too, then. I’m actually not against the idea if it can be done, but the hilt definitely needs to change if the blade color is changed.

The legend of Luke Skywalker, as he wanted to appear, used the blue lightsaber. The green one was only known by his Jedi apprentices, Kylo, Vader, Ben, Yoda and the Emperor.
At least that’s how I interpreted it. To that specific moment, the blue lightsaber had more weight.

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.

That’s not plot twist galore, that’s a variation.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/plot_twist

plot twist
noun

An unexpected development in a book, film, television program, etc.

 

You can’t possibly tell me with a straight face that you expected Snoke to die when he did. Now that he died in the second film, that makes him no longer akin to the Emperor, since now there is a whole third of the trilogy without him. Palpatine was an integral part of the third act of Return of the Jedi. But Snoke is dead. Snoke is now no longer a part of the story going forward. And that’s a twist because everyone expected him to play the part of the Emperor from start to finish.

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if we got the third act from The Empire Strikes Back in Episode IX with some sort of variation.

Still though, Vader did kill the Emperor, like Kylo killed Snoke. The circumstances were so different that it’s barley comparable, but similar in its own way nevertheless.

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.

I see this as the movie trolling us: it makes you go “oh man they’re literally remaking the OT beat by beat” and then BAM Kylo kills Snoke and we enter the what if reality where Vader, or in this case, Kylo kills the Emperor, or in this case Snoke.
To me it looks like they retold the OT in 1.5 movie and now we’re getting the new stuff. IX Will theoretically be super different but what’s JJ going to do? Kylo kills Rey and Kylo wins? What are the odds? And they’re not turning him into a good guy because Lucas did that in 1983 and it would be seen as a ripoff.
It looks like JJ has no way out - they’ll have to put a Battle of Endor lookalike to destroy the bad guys and make Rey go up vs. Kylo and kill him.

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

I think people have this notion of what Star Wars is supposed to be, and whatever that notion is, it’s fairly well boxed into a space that is unattainable for new content. Like it has been said: TFA played it safe and people hated it. R1 took a tangent with new characters and people hated it. TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.

Well, Star Wars is so big right now that no matter what they do someone will always hate it. The only ones that are “immune” to criticism are The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars because not only are well put together movies they also don’t contradict anything that came before or didn’t do anything that would insult fans as of 2017.

LEGO Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy

The problem with the scene was Hux going along with the joke, made him look stupid and started to look like a comedy skit.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Then there’s the fact that this entire arc aims to push Rey to the foreground as the next last Jedi, Luke 2.0, new and improved. However, does she deserve this mantle? Luke goes through hell and back before becoming a Jedi, making mistakes, suffering loss of life and limbs. Rey get’s her powers handed to her, and seemingly is never tempted. She’s almost a perfect heroine. The secret of her parents are supposed to be a representation of her personal demons, but it’s ultimately inconsequential. She cries about it, and the next scene she’s back being the hero. When Luke discovered the secret about his father, there was anguish and reflection, setting up the redemption arc of the next film.

Sorry to jump back a couple of pages, but if you remember Empire, Luke had this huge immediate reaction. The rest of his reaction had nothing to do with who his father is, but that Ben didn’t tell him. His litany is “Ben, why didn’t you tell me.” Before we ever see him really deal with it, he is back to his old self by the end of the movie and back to being a hero in the opening act of Jedi. Yes, he asks Yoda to confirm it, but Luke instantly accepted who his father was and carried on. So I’m failing to see how Rey crying about it and back to being a hero in the next scene is much different.

For one ROTJ takes place about a year after TESB, so it’s a difference between several minutes and a year. Secondly, the Luke we meet in ROTJ is not exactly the same character. He’s more mature, and serious, perhaps even a little darker (applying a Force choke early on). Either way, his discovery of his father’s identity leads directly into him questioning his masters and the Vader redemption arc. Rey’s discovery as depicted really can’t go anywhere, and she’s already forgotten about it minutes later in the same film, and thus totally inconsequential. So, it’s definitely not the same situation.

Yeah, she essentially overcame her greatest struggle (barely even a struggle because of the way it was portrayed) within minutes and that hardly even matters or affects her now.

DrDre said:

I think it’s fair to ask the question, why the ST is following this trajectory? Is it really trying to tell it’s own story, or is it just trying to redo the OT in some form, but pretending that it isn’t by avoiding the same twists. A lot of the twists and turns, while different from the OT, seem to derive from taking an OT story thread, and doing the opposite. It follows the what if scenario:

What if Vader couldn’t be redeemed?

What if Vader overthrew the Emperor?

What if Yoda refused to train Luke?

Many of the beats of the story of TLJ are very similar to TESB with the ROTJ throne room sequence thrown into the mix. Bad guys attack good guy base. Bad guys chase good guys (albeit a lot slower). Young hero goes to backwater planet to be trained by Jedi Master. Young hero defies her teacher, by going after the bad guy. Rogue betrays good guys. Bad guy fails to turn the hero to the dark side. Heroes end up in a tight spot.

Of course by taking the what if scenario, the ST is abandoning several of the underlying themes of the OT that drive the OT’s twists. Which begs the question, is Star Wars more defined by it’s themes, or by it’s story beats? My view is, that it is the former, and a new Star Wars trilogy that is based on the same themes, but has different story beats is better than a Star Wars trilogy, that is based on different themes, but largely follows the same story beats.

I agree, but inevitably Disney would be aiming towards what’s going to sell more, and I don’t blame them. Original Star Wars Trilogy aesthetics and story beats with some new faces and stuff is going to sell like crazy! So they made a good and beautiful movie, that really looked and sounded a lot like Star Wars. If it was actually Star Wars is up to you.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I believe the quote is “Rpeublic credits will do fine.” “No, they won’t.”

Anyways, what particular changes are you talking about?

He actually says what our porg friend quoted when he and Qui-Gon are talking about the race for the first time.

TavorX said:

But perhaps one could think that…

I think it gets to the point where you’re defending bad writing once you start a sentence with “But perhaps one could think that…”

Wow that is just incredible! You guys never cease to amaze me.

My only problem with TLJ Luke is that I don’t like how they killed him off. I acknowledge your point darthrush, but I guess I just don’t really like the way this particular aspect was handled. It still felt like Luke accomplishing everything he could in TLJ, failed to accomplish the one task he had. He did fail, and he did overcome it and gave hope to the galaxy and to the Resistance, but something feels off. In a way he’s still a failure I think. It just feels like such a small victory to me compared to all the defeats etc.

But I must say that I loved his arc in the movie, and I loved the outcome except for his death.

I honestly think he had more of an arc than any of the protagonists.

TavorX said:

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

He did more than walk away from the old Jedi Order. He walked away completely from everything and everyone.

Because he is a flawed character who thought he was too dangerous to do any good. It’s kinda the necessary foundation for his character arc.

I’m almost willing to forgive the Luke tempted to kill Kylo flashback stuff, but what will still remain a head-scratcher to me is buying the idea that post Jedi Academy-Luke doing absolutely nothing, NOTHING, to use his time on the island to figure out a way to redeem Kylo or help in any capacity, especially when he hides little clues like a piece of the map of his location in R2D2. I feel like an ashamed Luke will guilt him into action; not “leave me to die” Luke.

He wanted to die because he felt like he failed in his ultimate purpose in life and what Yoda wanted of him. He lost faith in himself. And if the arc is about Luke learning to believe in himself again (which is a great arc) then he needs to lose faith in himself at one point and feel that he is better off staying away from everything. His speech about “Luke Skywalker, a legend” says this perfectly.

I’m struggling so much here because on paper, it sounds GREAT. But again, I can’t ignore little clues like leaving behind that map puzzle piece in R2D2 for someone to stumble upon it, like Rey, when the time was “right”. Leaving those clues sounds like TFA was setting up the Luke I was thinking of, the one that didn’t give up completely during isolation. If there was no clues left behind, then I would digest this easier, because on paper, I believe you’re right, if Luke felt he let down Yoda in rebuilding a new Jedi Order, then yeah, I guess he would give up everything. What’s your take on the map piece? How does it still work in the frame-work of TLJ?

From my understanding, the map was essentially to the first Jedi temple, where it was known by few that is the place where Luke was. Not a map left behind by Luke for others to follow.