ChainsawAsh

I thought everything about his ROTS appearance - makeup, eyes, clothing, voice, acting in general - was FAR inferior to his ROTJ appearance.  I almost walked out of the theater on "No!  No!  YOU will DIE!" and the subsequent Emperor/Anakin scene.

Octorox said:

I don't know about showing Luke on Dagobah before we see his entrance on Tatooine. The way the new and improved Jedi Luke is presented is pretty effective.

The idea for that edit is to make it seem like Luke spent more than a week becoming a Jedi.  This way, he has spent an indeterminate amount of time on Dagobah - we assume after ESB he returned there to finish training, then he finishes, Yoda dies, and he leaves.

(The Fan-O-Matic thread is even more radical, changing Ben's scene to take place on Tatooine, though I think that's technically infeasible given the footage available)

And honestly, even if I didn't do all that, I would rewrite the crawl anyway.  The only reason is that it's boring.  Look at ANH:  "It is a period of civil war."  ESB:  "It is a dark time for the Rebellion."  ROTJ:  "Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt."  Wow.  Talk about boring, and a mouthful to boot.

Johnny Ringo said:

Does anybody not love Romo Lampkin?

What a guy.

That's funny, because I know people who absolutely hate him, to the point where they say he's worse than Jar Jar.

I love him, myself.  The cat episode was a little weird, though.

Yeah, you're right ... I guess it just seemed to me that everyone else is thinking in such a radically different direction than us, and I think your outlines are so good, Blackhawk, that the idea of compromising to make it "less sci-fi" seemed utterly ridiculous when (I feel) that Star Wars is a sci-fi fantasy to begin with.

That and I'm rereading the Zahn books (I haven't since the SE came out) and realizing that TheBoost is right about them, so I was already disillusioned about that, then to come here and see everyone arguing over whether it's "too sci-fi" or whatever just seemed ridiculous to me.

I think any prequel story we'll come up with is going to be more sci-fi-ish than the original trilogy anyway by necessity - we HAVE to deal with politics, we HAVE to deal with cloning, etc.  I just want these things to be interesting and make us think, regardless of how "sci-fi" it is.

I'd rewritten the crawl based on some of the ideas presented in the "Fan-O-Matic" thread.  Note that this crawl assumes the movie plays out in this order:

1. Vader arrives on DSII
2. Leia delivers Chewie to Jabba
3. Luke is on Dagobah, Yoda dies, Obi-Wan tells Luke of Leia (which works well because the next scene is...)
4. Leia frees Han, is captured
5. Luke arrives on Tatooine.
6. Droids attempt to deliver message, but are taken captive

The rest of the movie pretty much plays out as before.  Anyway, here's my new crawl:

STAR WARS
Episode VI
THE RETURN OF THE JEDI

The Rebellion stands on the
brink of destruction.  While
Han Solo is imprisoned in
Jabba the Hutt's Tatooine
palace, Luke Skywalker remains
on Dagobah to complete
his Jedi training.

As Leia and Lando put into
action a plan to free their
friend, the GALACTIC EMPIRE
has begun construction on a
new, far more powerful DEATH
STAR.

When completed, this ultimate
weapon will spell certain doom
for the small band of Rebels
struggling to restore freedom
to the galaxy. . . .

And there's something that definitely NEEDS to be fixed: "Jedi" is the ONLY film where the opening crawl has three dots at the end.  Every other one has four!  It's bothered me since I was about 8.

My enthusiasm for this is beginning to wane.  Not because people disagree with me - rather, because all this argument over what's "too sci-fi" has made me realize how truly unnecessary the prequels are to begin with.  Any prequels are, well, just not needed.  All the information necessary for the story presented in Star Wars/Empire/Jedi is given in those movies.

Let me demonstrate what I mean:

The Clone Wars were a war or wars in the past that the Jedi (a group of people who are sensitive to the Force, an energy field created by all living things that the Jedi can tap into in order to perform amazing feats and have a life of inner peace) were involved in.  Obi-Wan fought as a general in them for Leia's [adoptive] father, as did Anakin.

It is implied that from these wars sprang the Empire, a governmental system headed by Emperor Palpatine, a user of the Dark Side of the Force (the path of fear, anger, and hatred, the "bad" or "evil" side).  The Empire replaced the Old Republic, which had been governed by a Senate.

Obi-Wan had trained Anakin, thinking he could teach him as well as Yoda, but failed, and Anakin turned to the Dark Side.  Anakin had twins that were separated at birth to hide them from the Empire.  Anakin became Darth Vader, becoming "more machine than man" at some point apparently due to injuries, and served the Emperor, hunting down and killing all the Jedi, save for Obi-Wan and Yoda.

There is a rebellion against the Empire full of people trying to restore the good of the Republic.

Obi-Wan tried to turn Anakin back to the good side, unable to let his friend turn without trying to help him.

Hmm ... I think that's about it.

Anyway, my point:

Why do you need to see all of this?  You know it happened.  Does it really matter that much "how" or "why?"  And why would you care enough to sit through three movies whose entire point is just to explain things you already basically know?

Maybe I'll get my zest for this project back after thinking about it more, but after really thinking about it, I just don't really care how all that happened, because clearly the more interesting story has already been told.  If that's not true, then why did Lucas make "IV-VI" first instead of "I-III"?  And don't tell me the whole "technology" bullshit, if that were truly the case then the prequels we got are proof that they didn't need to be made anyway.

I'll sleep on it and see if I still care in the morning, or if I'd be content with pretending there's only 3 "Star Wars" movies for the rest of my life (I think the latter will win out).

Is there a link to any promos?  I had to DL last week's episode since my roommate ejected my tape from the VCR while I was at class, and it didn't include credits or "Next week on ... " previews at all.

I've been fiddling around in After Effects with this, but I based my crawl text on a "flattened" version of the ESB crawl that included "Episode V THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK."  As such, it seems that the text isn't long enough to work without the episode tag/title.

Also, I'm doing this using Adywan's ANH as a guide, as my GOUT copy isn't on me at the moment.  This might also be part of the problem.

Here's my request/question:  Does anyone have a perspective-corrected version of the pre-ANH opening crawl?  It would look something like this one, but, obviously, pre-ANH:

http://www.theforce.net/fanfilms/postproduction/crawl/crawl-04-anh.gif

My other question:  How do I make the crawl "disappear" the way it does in the films in After Effects (I'm using CS4)?  I figured out how to get the main logo to dissolve, but it appears that the crawl itself doesn't dissolve uniformly (that is, the upper portions fade earlier than the lower portions).  How would I do that in After Effects, for anyone knowledgeable in that subject area?

Boba's name has been said on-screen in the OT twice, by Han in ROTJ: "Boba Fett?  Boba Fett?  Where?!"  Immediately after, Boba is accidentally killed.

I think if you remove him from ROTJ then his OT story is perfect - hired by Vader, captures Han, gets his cash, and he's out to catch more fugitives for more cash.  That's it.  I don't understand why people are so attached to his consistently-awful depiction in ROTJ.

Since the Jabba's palace scenes aren't nearly as offensive to his character as the sail barge scenes, my second choice is to simply remove him from the sail barge scenes and show Slave I taking off in the exterior shot of the palace.  I could live with the whole thing about him selling the Rebels the Death Star II's location, but I'd honestly rather not see that.  It's not needed.

Since I'm probably beginning to sound like a broken record (*cough*Kurgan*cough*), I'll shut up about that now - my feelings have been made known on this subject, and it's Ady's decision from here on in.

Can't say it was surprising that they died, but damn if that wasn't an intense two hours of television.

I'm not sure that angle works best.  It makes it look like a strange alien ship, like one of the Rebels', instead of the Executor.

Octorox said:

TMBTM said:

If its the enemy I guess I can understand it, like a mystical powers arm race.

Maybe, we can find a plot AROUND cloning without ANY stormtroopers clones at all.

You know, the bad guy finds a way to clone people and he begin to clone some high members of the Republic to take control, step by step. The Jedi begin to suspect something. Everyone's getting paranoid. And that is the Clone War, a kind of cold war...

 

You guys need to remember that Star Wars is NOT SCI-FI. It's a fantasy/western/adventure story set in space. Cloning should NOT play a large part in the plot or your heading into sci-fi territory. Using cloning to amass an army steers clear of sci-fi because it doesn't really affect the plot that their clones. However, replacing important characters with clones seems like a no no to me because it's a very sci-fi concept. Futuristic space tech is just an element of setting in Star Wars, not of plot.

I really don't understand this mentality at all.  Star Wars is CLEARLY sci-fi.  Not necessarily "Star Trek" sci-fi where every minute detail has to be explained in a scientific way - THAT'S the difference.

Carbon freezing?  That's not sci-fi?  That's not an element of plot?  Hyperspace?  Huge space stations that can destroy planets?

I agree that Star Wars is a fantasy/adventure story in space, but to say that it's not sci-fi is kind of narrow-minded.  I'd describe it as a sci-fi fantasy, where certain things are explained away by the "fantasy" aspect and others the "sci-fi" aspect, as opposed to other sci-fi stories were everything is explained by it being "sci-fi" (Blade Runner, Alien, Dune, Star Trek ... )

I always figured it was a medical droid converted to torture people.

I stick by using the OT and the Thrawn trilogy as canon for our "NPT" as some have taken to calling it.

If I remember right, "Heir to the Empire" mentioned that attempted Jedi clones were highly mentally unstable (although I think it was really all "first generation" clones, I think it makes more sense for overall continuity if it's Jedi clones in general).  I think that's perfect - why wouldn't the Emperor, or even the Mandalorians, try to clone Jedi that they could use to their benefit?

But if we stick by that, that means that Obi-Wan of the OT certainly can't be a clone.

That and I'm not fond of the idea in general.

While we certainly want to make a PT that is more in line with the OT, we also don't want to fall in the trap many sequels do of simply rehashing the originals.  Just because the cloaking devices and clone replacments aren't in the OT doesn't mean that they're out of place, just that they weren't in the OT.  Then, of course, we run the risk of crossing that line that the PT seemed to ignore the existence of.

My point is, we can't make it TOO much like the OT, but we can't stray too far either.

TheBoost said:

ChainsawAsh said:

TheBoot, you have some good ideas, but it feels simultaneously too similar to ideas already presented to the point where it's really not much new, and too similar to the prequels as they exist today.  I know that seems contradictory, but that's the feeling I got when I read them.  Also, it's far too clear that Anakin is Vader at the end.  But there are some good ideas in there, as well.

 

 Like I said, I'm really trying to make an amalgam of what I think are some of the stronger concepts presented so far, I'm not trying to present it as 'mine.'

Oh, I totally understand that, I wasn't knocking you at all.

I guess what I was trying to say is if you have ideas that haven't been presented thus far, don't be afraid to put them out there.  Others may like them, they may not, but the more ideas we have from everyone, the more options we have.

Octorox said:

I still really hate the OT of preserving the OT secrets in the prequels. I thought the whole point of the prequels were to show everything the characters talked about in the OT. Anakin's fall, the Empire's rise, The destruction of the Jedi, The Clone Wars, Palpatine's rise to power, Luke and Leia's birth and separation ect. I don't like the idea of never seeing Anakin's gradual fall to the dark side. Sorry guys, I'm just not seeing it. The prequels failing was all in writing, acting, direction in characterization, not in story or concepts.

The purpose of these prequels isn't to show what the characters talked about in the OT - it's to enrich our understanding of the events in the OT.  The difference is subtle, but important.  If you just show what people talked about, there's nothing engaging about it - you know all the key parts, it's just filling in details.  That's one (of many) failing of the current PT - it just filled in details that didn't really need filling in.

What we're trying to accomplish (at least, what I'm trying to accomplish) is to tell a story worthy of 'Star Wars' set during this time that can be enjoyed in conjunction with - or separate from - the original trilogy.  That's the major problem of the PT - if you haven't seen the OT, it won't make much sense.  If you have, it doesn't make sense based on what the OT was.

We don't want to ruin the experience of the OT with this series.  I don't agree with the idea that just because 'Star Wars' is such a huge worldwide phenomenon, we should just assume that the audience watching knows everything already.

Plus, from Blackhawk's outlines, the preservation of these secrets isn't remotely hurting the story.  The way I look at it, if you can preserve the secrets, fantastic!  If doing so harms the story or the emotional "punch," then forget about it and tell it how it should be told.  So far, it's not hurting anything.

Honestly, the real reason we're keeping the secrets is because George thought it'd be a good idea to number the originals 4, 5, and 6.  If he hadn't done that, I firmly believe we wouldn't be having this discussion today at all - it would be absolutely clear that the prequels were to be watched after the OT, and we wouldn't need to argue over keeping the secrets or not.

The prequels failing was all in writing, acting, direction in characterization, not in story or concepts.

That's a contention I have to disagree with.  The story and concepts of the prequels were most certainly failings, perhaps their greatest.

Changes I'd make to Ady's "Revisited" (not counting the "Purist" edition, which I know contains some of the changes I'd like to make, but removes some of the changes I liked about ANH:R):

1. Remove the torture droid's mini-lightsaber-needle-thingie.  If there's one change to be made to ANH:R, that's it.

2. Return Obi-Wan's death to normal speed, with the original music (I'm indifferent on the duel music - it's a little out of place, but not too bad).

3. Remove the music in the Death Star "briefing" room.  The only bit of truly unnecessary added music.

That's it.  Otherwise, it's THE perfect version of ANH.

Oh, almost forgot, one more change:

Re-do the whole thing at 4K (or even 6K) resolution and print it back to 35mm film for theatrical distribution.

Blackhawk, we are DEFINITELY on the same page.  That just sounds amazing - God, if only the real prequels had been like this ...

And that outline makes me warm up quite a bit more to the whole "Sith" thing.

I'd comment more, but I'm still a bit overwhelmed by that outline, and I need to get some real-life stuff taken care of at the moment.  But wow, fantastic job there.

TheBoot, you have some good ideas, but it feels simultaneously too similar to ideas already presented to the point where it's really not much new, and too similar to the prequels as they exist today.  I know that seems contradictory, but that's the feeling I got when I read them.  Also, it's far too clear that Anakin is Vader at the end.  But there are some good ideas in there, as well.

Nice.  I understand that some people are iffy on the idea that two of Obi-Wan's apprentices go to the Dark Side, but I think it's necessary.  Besides, maybe he's just not a great teacher - he can't be perfect, right?  And we all pretty much agree that this "NPT" needs to make us look at the OT in a different light.  Well, maybe Obi-Wan wasn't quite as great as Luke thought he was (already hinted at in ESB/ROTJ).

On the flipside, it does help that Obi-Wan's new student was kind of forced upon him, is far too reckless (to the point where he's just not a very redeemable character in the first place), and really would have gone over to the Dark Side even if Obi-Wan hadn't trained him.  He's already taught himself too much of the "wrong way" to use the Force long before he was discovered by the Jedi.

The only problem with that is that the Jango costume is radically different from Boba's ESB or ROTJ costumes (which, themselves, have more than a few differences).

I don't blame Rikter - I just assumed the LD was of shitty quality to begin with.

Double post.  Sorry.

I just sat through a very interesting, if sort of depressing, class on the history of the 1960s.  Today our subject was McCarthyism.

All I could think about was applying this to our prequels.

Here's my thought process on this:

Palpatine is basically McCarthy.  The difference is that people got wise to McCarthy's act before he could bid for the Presidential office.

This also expands on Blackhawk's ideas about Clone War II.  Note that most of this is background stuff that wouldn't be more than hinted at in our Episode II/III, but we do need to have the whole story mapped out so we don't have accidental inconsistencies.  Here we go:

Clone War I ends with the Mandalorians defeated, retreating to the far reaches of the Outer Rim.  A young Senator, relatively unknown, but incredibly power-hungry and self-taught in the ways of the [Dark Side of the] Force, sees an opportunity.  The Mandalorians use clones as slave labor.  So he secretly meets with the Mandalorians with a proposition.

He tells them he can help them rise to power through his role in the Senate, if they will grant him a place of power in the new regime.  At this point, they're not looking for inclusion, they're looking to control everything.  He convinces them to create clone "sleeper agents" of people - it doesn't really matter who, just anybody they can get their hands on.  They find out everything they can about them, kidnap them and replace them with clones.  This occurs between Episodes I and II.

Palpatine announces to the Senate that he has become aware of a Mandalorian plot to overthrow the Republic using sleeper agents.  He starts accusing people of being clones left and right.  Jedi are brought in since, because of Anakin, they can sense the absence of the Force in clones, and can tell who really are and who aren't.  Over time, with real clones outed and executed, Palpatine becomes a champion for the Republic against the Mandalorian menace.

Unfortunately, this creates the side effect of giving the Jedi more power.  In order to combat this, Palpatine decides to start naming people who AREN'T clones.  The Jedi give them a pass, saying they aren't.  Palpatine now turns on the Jedi, saying that they are siding with the Mandalorians, or even that they have been replaced by clones themselves.

Throughout this, he slowly turns Anakin to his side, since he's really the only one who knows how to tell the difference between clones and "originals."  By the time he starts accusing Jedi of treason, Anakin is on his side, believing that the Jedi are corrupt, and he leaves the Order.  Obi-Wan does the same because Yoda, adhering to the basic Jedi principles of non-intervention, refuses to take action.  He meets with Bail Organa and forms an alliance with him, fighting as his General.

Eventually the Jedi are forced into action, but it's far too late.  Palpatine uses this to his advantage, painting the Jedi as a powerful ally for the Mandalorians, and that a Senate without a leader is too weak to fight the both of them.  In a near-unanimous vote, he becomes the Emperor.  He uses Anakin, now operating under the moniker of Darth Vader to conceal his identity, to exterminate the Jedi.  Simultaneously, with the Mandalorians ready to sweep in, he double-crosses them, raising a massive army to fight them.

In the ensuing war, morale across the Republic is broken, and many, many lives are lost.  The Republic eventually defeats the Mandalorians, wiping them out almost entirely.  But there is rebuilding to be done.  Under this guise, Palpatine does not give up his position as Emperor as was agreed to under the terms of his ascension to the position.  Very few oppose him, and those that do quietly disappear.  Thus, the Galactic Empire is born.

There are holes, yes - it's certainly not a complete outline.  It's just my idea for how the Empire itself forms.  This, however, can NOT become the primary focus of the films.  The Galactic Civil War isn't the focus of the OT, the characters are.  Here, the characters need to come first as well.  That's going to be the trickiest part in getting this to work without getting bogged down explaining the politics.

TheBoost said:

This thread is AWESOME and I would like nothing more than to play a part in this braintrust.

 

Here are some questions that might lead down interesting paths.  

-What if the Jedi deserved to be destroyed? What if they, as a religion, were too powerful, too comfortable, and many of them were turning their back on the true path? I'm inspired by the medieval Catholic church, where the clergy weilded more power than kings and more than half of all priests and most popes had illigetimate kids. Perhaps a handful of Jedi, like Quigon, might still be faithful, but as a whole it's a decaying institution. This would put Luke as the start of a fresh, pure Jedi order.

-What if the Republic was hopelessly corrupt as well? What if Anakin and Obiwan were part of a valid revolution, but where Obiwan was on the side to redeem and reform the Republic, whereas Anakin finds himself more in the 'burn it all, behead your enemies, reform a dictatorship' camp. (A little Oliver Cromwell. a little Napoleon)

-What if Anakin, publicly as Anakin, was leader of the Storm Troopers, President Palpatine's personal security force? He eventually renounces the Jedi and becomes head of this 'Secret Police' (very Nazi Brownshirts). He could even wear a white, helmetless version of the Vader armor. If the Jedi are outlawed, he could lead the hunt for them as Anakin, not becoming Vader until Obiwan makes him all crippleified.

-I think Anakin doesn't need to get married. Maybe he doesn't even KNOW his lady is pregnant, since their affair is secret anyways. Maybe she's married. Maybe Bail Organa can't have kids, and his wife is schtupping a Jedi on the side, and he's fine with it.

-What if Anakin never even becomes a Jedi? Obiwan meets him, they become buddies, and then Obiwan tries to instruct him in the Force, and Anakin just goes bad from the start? I don't love this idea, but I think there's nothing in the OT that says Anakin had to be a Jedi.

 

No offense, but a movie like you described would be so full of completely unredeeming characters that I don't think anybody would find any kind of enjoyment in it.

Plus I'm still in the camp that OT secrets need to be kept, and that the Jedi should be only well-known enough for some people to think that it's a crazy cult (precedent: "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion ... " "... I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful 'force' that controls everything"), some people to not even know they exist, and some, obviously, to believe in them.

However, I like your Anakin not having a wife/knocking up Bail's wife idea.

3D animation is incredibly difficult.  Why would 2D be harder?  Look at animated TV.  How much of it is animated in 2D?  Family Guy, The Simpsons, Futurama, King of the Hill, almost any Adult Swim show (Robot Chicken doesn't count, it's stop-motion), et cetera.  And how many 3D-animated TV shows do you know?  Clone Wars ... um ... yeah.  Not to say that Futurama and occasionally Simpsons don't use 3D animation, but it's mostly 2D.

I use TV as an example because of the volume of work they have to do each year - think of that, and think of us doing 3 two-hour movies.  We do want to finish this in our lifetimes.

I also room with an animation student.  Trust me, it would be a lot easier to do 2D animation than 3D.