CatBus

TV’s Frink said:

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/328751-trump-administration-moves-to-stabilize-obamacare-markets

Doesn’t actually address the immediate crisis at all, but the headline sure indicates otherwise.

Basically it’s a non-nuclear nuke, about 1/1000 of the Hiroshima bomb, which is to say still effing huge. The biggest conventional bomb ever developed, created during the Gulf War but never used (specifically because of the high risk of civilian casualities). Bigger than the Daisycutter by a lot.

It’s taking advantage of that fact that people in general are more accepting of weapons that simply cannot be used in a way that safeguards civilians, if they’re not nuclear/biological/chemical. People generally agree Hiroshima was bad, but nobody even knows what happened in Dresden, that sort of thing. It’s like getting people to notice cluster bombs and landmines really hurt civilians more than combatants and getting more than a shrug.

But it’s a very big boom. Like all WMDs, it compensates for other policy inadequacies. It terrifies the locals. And it sends a message: we don’t give a damn about any of you people, and we don’t care to find out if you’re against us or not. We’ll kill you first and call you a terrorist later. And the dead are harder to find/identify afterward than after, say, a sarin attack, so it’s better PR, as WMD attacks go.

All issues already discussed in far too much detail after the post you quoted.

Don’t worry. My friend’s down there.

CatBus said:

Wow, maybe Obamacare will blow up after all:

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8329215/Joint_CSR_Letter_to_President_Trump_04.12.2017.0.pdf

The question is, is there any way to maintain this level of negligence without looking like you were trying to sabotage the marketplace. I suspect the “plausible” half of “plausible deniability” is already off the table.

EDIT: The US Chamber of Commerce of all people is begging them to do their jobs, for goodness sakes!

Oh silly me, thinking that sabotaging access to healthcare for millions through negligence would be the sort of thing you’d want to hide, not gloat about. I was taking that “faithfully execute” part of the oath of office so literally:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/04/trump-i-may-sabotage-obamacare-until-democrats-repeal-it.html

Nice health care system you got there. It’d be a shame if something were to happen to it.

The thing is, for this particular grift to work, he will still need to propose a replacement plan that kicks fewer people off healthcare than he would kick off through market sabotage, and I haven’t seen any indications anything like that’s even being considered–so in that sense, it’s more of a spite move than actual leverage (which doesn’t make it less plausible, I’m afraid). But if the goal is simply to retake control of the headlines for a while, I’d say it’s a better plan than forgetting that the Holocaust happened, or hiring even more white supremacists.

Wow, maybe Obamacare will blow up after all:

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8329215/Joint_CSR_Letter_to_President_Trump_04.12.2017.0.pdf

The question is, is there any way to maintain this level of negligence without looking like you were trying to sabotage the marketplace. I suspect the “plausible” half of “plausible deniability” is already off the table.

EDIT: The US Chamber of Commerce of all people is begging them to do their jobs, for goodness sakes!

For those hoping Bannon is just an exception, or that the white supremacist faction is somehow losing influence in the Bannon-Kushner drama, I have some bad news. Jon Feere and Julie Kirschner have both been tapped for high-level advisory positions within DHS. They both have significant history with and membership in white-supremacist-linked hate groups (CIS and FAIR, specifically).

Jetrell Fo said:

TV’s Frink said:

This seems like kind of a big deal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-obtained-fisa-warrant-to-monitor-former-trump-adviser-carter-page/2017/04/11/620192ea-1e0e-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_page710pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.db9a05bc85f7

The FBI obtained a secret court order last summer to monitor the communications of an adviser to presidential candidate Donald Trump, part of an investigation into possible links between Russia and the campaign, law enforcement and other U.S. officials said.

The FBI and the Justice Department obtained the warrant targeting Carter Page’s communications after convincing a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judge that there was probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power, in this case Russia, according to the officials.

This is the clearest evidence so far that the FBI had reason to believe during the 2016 presidential campaign that a Trump campaign adviser was in touch with Russian agents. Such contacts are now at the center of an investigation into whether the campaign coordinated with the Russian government to swing the election in Trump’s favor.

President Trump has been lying all along don’tcha know. There were no names to unmask because this didn’t happen.

😉

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/11/carter-page-fbi-reportedly-obtained-fisa-warrant-to-monitor-ex-trump-adviser.html

Bye bye fake Russian narrative … 😃

Decent analysis here:

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a54457/carter-page-fisa-warrant-fbi/

The question of “who leaked this?” is actually pretty salient. There’s no doubt this has been a leaky administration with a leaky congress, but the leaks have generally been selected to support their narrative. This one, though? It actively and brutally undermines several administration narratives simultaneously: that Obama ordered surveillance rather than letting law enforcement follow their own legal procedures (this leak supports the latter), and that there’s nothing to the Russia story, rather then enough to convince a court (twice) that not only was there probable cause that a crime was committed, but also that the target was acting as an agent of a foreign government (this leak supports the latter in surprising detail).

Unfortunately, there’s no shortage of conspiracy theories that this can’t still be worked into, as I’m sure it will. It could easily still be pinned on the Illuminati Elders of Zion Secret Obama Shadow World Government Run From a Surfboard in Hawaii That’s Linked via HAARP Signals to His Underground Volcano Lair and His Bald Cat.

SilverWook said:

As for the rest, he could have been fighting Nazis on the Moon for all I really know.

Shh! Project Moonreicher hasn’t been declassified yet!

SilverWook said:

CatBus said:

SilverWook said:

Where was it said non Jedi ever used sabers?

Han beat a dead Tauntaun with one, and considered slicing up a net with one (which is really all your average person could accomplish today with a cutlass). And if you’re including the ST, Finn actually fought with one.

Historically speaking as opposed to carrying another type of laser weapon. If laser swords are all the galaxy had as hand weaponry “for a thousand generations”, then technological development in the Star Wars universe took a very strange path.
The Jedi are supposed to be like Samurai. They probably had swords with physical blades early in their history.

I’d always pictured the Jedi as kinda like engineers who still use sliderules. There is no doubt that sliderules are cool (in an engineering sense). There is no doubt that they can be used to solve a surprisingly wide array of today’s problems quickly and efficiently in the hands of someone who knows how to use them–skilled sliderule users easily besting casual calculator users both in speed and accuracy. But they are still ultimately a technological dead end (somehow I predict this will be my most controversial statement; some people really love their sliderules).

So Obi-Wan and Luke use sliderules after everyone has calculators, computers, and smartphones. The Jedi who defended the Republic for a thousand years did so with sliderules, even though the Republic also had calculators, computers, and maybe even smartphones. I didn’t take the thousand years statement to mean the progress of technology was slow, but that the Jedi had been around, presumably with with their idiosyncratic tech, for quite a while. And they’re proud of it. It’s possible there was a time before blasters when lightsabers were standard issue weapons for everyone. It’s also possible lightsabers were a custom-created ego project by some Jedi who really liked swords, and they were never actually top-tier weaponry. But that’s going back before there are any references I’d care to use.

All right, I think we trashed this thread enough. Thanks for humoring me 😉

DominicCobb said:

Remember the black stormtrooper outrage? That was because a lot of people though stormtroopers were clones because of the prequels.

Hm. I’m thinking maybe it has a little more in common with the female heroine outrage than you’re letting on, but that’s another topic.

Frankly prequel fans are used to the Star Wars universe not making any sense. Leaving out prequel references when they could be inserted couldn’t possibly be more disruptive than the prequels themselves.

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.

Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.

Again, it’s a big galaxy.

It’s a big cape.

That’s a completely reasonable assumption to make but it is not the only possibility.

I’m just saving this for later.

Going back, your Alderaan analogy doesn’t really make sense at all.

There’s two cities named Portland, there can’t be two planets named Alderaan?

We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm

We never see what’s under the cape. It could also be a second mouth, or a third ear. I’m starting to wonder about wings.

the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet.

I think working with the completely reasonable assumptions is okay, though. Also, keep in mind through this discussion–Switching around Luke’s father advanced a plot point. Switching around Luke’s sister advanced a plot point. Something was gained in trade for the something that was lost. These things? Throwaway lines, as you said. Nothing was gained in exchange for the dissonance–which I’m freely admitting you did not feel.

SilverWook said:

Where was it said non Jedi ever used sabers?

Han beat a dead Tauntaun with one, and considered slicing up a net with one (which is really all your average person could accomplish today with a cutlass). And if you’re including the ST, Finn actually fought with one.

DominicCobb said:

There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.

Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.

DominicCobb said:

Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?

I was operating under the assumption that people don’t stop doing things without reason. They clearly stopped making lightsabers because blasters were simply more effective, albeit less elegant (from the available evidence, I have to agree with Han on that score). They stopped cloning for less clear reasons, but there was a war over it, and it’s safe to assume that the clones were on the losing side because none are around by Star Wars, so maybe the clones just didn’t live up to their military potential. In my mind, clones and lightsabers both represent the technological dead ends of the distant past, long since surpassed, with nothing but their nostalgic glow keeping them worth talking about–and that’s at the beginning of Star Wars, let alone three films later.

And yes, Luke can take out a whole sail barge full of blaster-wielding opponents with his lightsaber. But I doubt a lightsaber in the hands of a non-Jedi would be very effective (your three foot range will eventually bite you), and I suspect a Jedi who gave up lightsabers and set his mind to mastering the blaster would be formidable, if considerably less cool-looking. And how many spaceships were outfitted with lightsabers vs blasters? Blasters won the day, long ago. Lightsabers only get points for style.

DominicCobb said:

I’d totally accept a Battle of Wigglypants

Now you’re just flirting 😉

As for clones vs. Alderaan, this is where I really don’t get it. In my mind there’s no indication whatsoever that cloning is a completely ancient and defunct practice. I don’t know where you’re getting that idea from.

Well, clones are presented as from the time of lightsabers, which is presented as a dead and gone age. Grand Moff Tarkin, who probably has access to more data on the state of the universe than anyone, is certain the Jedi are all extinct but one. That age is over, even if a few relics remain. Lightsabers, the Old Republic, Clones–these are dusty old history book subjects (all presented as part of the same historical whole), barely a trace left in the present. Then we go through three films spanning several planets, and see evidence of a very few more lightsabers, but not a single clone.

That’s fine. I explained where I could, but I never intended to change anyone’s mind.

Would counter-examples help? Someone in the ST lists the major battles of the Rebellion: the Battle of Yavin, the Battle of Hoth, the Battle of Wigglypants, and the Battle of Endor. That’s how the Sith line strikes me. Then they talk about how they plan to retire to Alderaan when this is all over. Seems odd too, like the clones line seems to me. Yeah, maybe there really was a Battle of Wigglypants (offscreen), and maybe there are more than one planet named Alderaan, but just out there, without any attempt at explanation… it’s just a WTF line.

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

I don’t know man, that’s really pretty silly. Honestly doubt many others had the same reaction you did.

Maybe not. Nevertheless, both essentially booted me out of any sort of immersion in the film, and neither was in any way necessary, so I think it would’ve been better without either. In that respect, they’re really not any better than that shaggy Alf impersonator singing in ROTJ:SE, had that been the original cut of ROTJ.

Just when I thought you couldn’t get any sillier…

The Alf guy had a fair amount of screetime and literally yelled into the camera. That’s basically as bad as it gets.

“Perhaps leader Snoke should consider using a clone army.” Are you honestly saying that’s comparable to a '97 quality CGI effect taking up the whole screen and singing the worst song ever recorded?

In the sense that it pulls you right out of the movie, it’s exactly the same. In other senses, I freely admit Alf is worse.

As for Maz’s line, it’s literally two words - “the Sith.” Were you pulled out of the film when Han mentioned King Prana? Or when Rey mentioned the Irving Boys or Ducain? Because I still have no idea what those things are but they never jerk me out of the film when I watch it.

Of course not–talk about silly. Neither of those things are presented in a string of Very Serious Known Quantities as the wacky odd man out (like Sith), nor are they things that are known to the universe but terribly anachronistic in the way they’re presented (like clones). They’re just details of the larger world we don’t know about, like the original mention of the Clone Wars, or Captain Antilles.

Look, it’s clear you disagree. And that’s fine. May I disagree as well?

SilverWook said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on seeing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

You do know Vader was called a Lord Of The Sith back in the day? I know for sure the Marvel comic used it. As kids, we didn’t really question why it wasn’t spoken in the film, but it was definitely in our lexicon back then.

Oh, I know there’s a EU out there. But I think it’s safe to say I’m not the only one for whom Star Wars starts and stops at the films. Well, and the Holiday Special. So I could probably have dealt with an Itchy reference.

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

I don’t know man, that’s really pretty silly. Honestly doubt many others had the same reaction you did.

Maybe not. Nevertheless, both essentially booted me out of any sort of immersion in the film, and neither was in any way necessary, so I think it would’ve been better without either. In that respect, they’re really not any better than that shaggy Alf impersonator singing in ROTJ:SE, had that been the original cut of ROTJ.

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?

And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.

I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”

Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.

The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.

Darth Id said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins

Really, I only noticed one: Mamzy’s line about "The Sith."
Apparently, some people thought Rilo Kiley’s suggestion of using “clones” was a PT reference, but really that line could have been in any SciFi/Fantasy movie.
What else was there?

Listed in the part you didn’t quote. I feel Clones was a PT reference because it was from that universe, but anachronistic within that universe.

FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:

1. not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
2. more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent

As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.

TV’s Frink said:

Hey cool, David Fahrenthold won the Pulitzer Prize for national reporting. Well deserved.

OTOH, Peggy Noonan won one for commentary, which is pretty baffling.