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#161443
Topic
When did you give up with the Prequels, TPM, AOTC, or ROTS?
Time
Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
No, I picked up the first vol cheap for collection sake and didnt think much of it and thought vol 2 was better but I dont think as good as the films, how ever much I dont like Episode 1, If truth be told I dont hate Episode 2 as much as Episode 1 and probably could sit through the DVD if i felt like it, but i just found/find them underwhelming and just dont find parts enjoyable and both drag to me,

Now thing is actually sit through the fan-editted versions and can enjoy them and find them watchable. though they could have been better, as could the whole thing i feel if Lucas had done things differently

Text


Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
No, I picked up the first vol cheap for collection sake and didnt think much of it and thought vol 2 was better but I dont think as good as the films, how ever much I dont like Episode 1, If truth be told I dont hate Episode 2 as much as Episode 1 and probably could sit through the DVD if i felt like it, but i just found/find them underwhelming and just dont find parts enjoyable and both drag to me,

Now thing is actually sit through the fan-editted versions and quite enjoy them and find them watchable. though they could have been better, as could the whole thing i feel if Lucas had done things differently


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I agree, the clone war cartoons you can watch once, as I did before Episode III, just to keep up with the story, but don't have much replay value after that. But there a couple of good lines in there that I wish were in the movies:

I don't know the exact wording, but Anakin and ObiWan are arguing in Volume 2, and I know Anakin says something to ObiWan about that Obiwan is not as good as QuiGon, or something like that, just to take a shot at him. But to me that was a key scene, because it gave you the sense that Anakin wishes that QuiGon trained him instead of ObiWan, thus approving of the ways QuiGon did things. For those who never saw the cartoon, opportunity missed by Lucas again.
Post
#161377
Topic
When did you give up with the Prequels, TPM, AOTC, or ROTS?
Time
I know many fans were disappointed with TPM, and Jar Jar, but still held out hope for the other two episodes. I think in my mind most people gave up on the prequels after AOTC. I think that movie, despite how bad Jar Jar is in TPM, is really the one where people just put their hands up and said WTF?

Sure ROTS, IMO, is the best one of the three, and was anticipated by most, but I think the damage of AOTC really disappointed fans, and the success of Lord of the Rings, really hurt Star Wars, and that was the final breaking point. TPM disappointed, and then AOTC drove a daggar through our hearts. And even though I liked ROTS, the damage was done, and could not be repaired.

When did you guys finally put your hands up and realize this prequel trilogy may not be worth it?

Post
#161264
Topic
Interesting Hypothesis of the Prequels Story from the Mid 90's
Time

This is a very interesting write-up I found on the internet from Starlong magazine about what we should expect the prequels story to be like from I believe in the mid 90’s? It is LONG, but very interesting, because what the writer did was just take quotes from the OT novels and movies, and centered the PT story around that. There is no QuiGon, it even has Dagobah in it to explain why Luke remembers it. It is very interesting, cause it doesn’t waste Episode I setting everything up for two hours and in the end a waste of our time. Read it, cause if this story was the prequels, I myself may feel alittle different.
 

LOOKING BACK TO THE FUTURE OF STAR WARS By John L. Flynn

“A Long Time Ago…In A Galaxy Far, Far Away…” Even now, some seventeen years later, those words still strike such an emotional response of awe and wonder in the hearts of audiences worldwide. Without doubt, the most popular space age adventure of all time, the “Star Wars” trilogy mesmerized filmgoers with the exploits of Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader, and delighted both young and old alike with the antics of See-Threepio and Artoo-Detoo. Few film series have enjoyed such success, or have had such an impact on the popular culture of an entire generation. And now, the word for which hundreds of millions of fans have been waiting comes that there will be more adventures.

Late last year, George Lucas announced plans to produce not only another installment in the Indiana Jones films but also the first three motion pictures in the “Star Wars” saga. By utilizing the refined digital-image “compositing” technology (first introduced by Industrial Light and Magic in “The Abyss,” later showcased in “Terminator Two” and perfected in “Jurassic Park”), Lucas hopes to complete his three prequels between 1995 and 2001. The first trilogy, set some twenty years before the action in “Star Wars,” has remained both a mystery and the subject of rumor and baseless speculation for over ten years. George Lucas himself has kept purposely tight-lipped for fear that some movie-of-the week (like “Battlestar Galactica”) might “borrow” key elements and upstage his project.

However, by looking back at the original films, their novelizations and early drafts, tantalizing clues do reveal the future of his sprawling space saga. “I wanted to make a kid’s film that would strengthen contemporary mythology and introduce a kind of basic morality,” Lucas explained his vision in 1983. “Nobody was saying the very basic things; they were dealing in the abstract. Everybody was forgetting to tell the kids, ‘Hey, this right and this is wrong.’” While in preproduction of “Star Wars,” Lucas wrote dozens of scripts and story treatments. Each were unique in some way, and featured a different perspective of the space fantasy. One of the earliest scripts dealt with Luke’s father and his relationship to Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi. Fearing that the story would bore modern audiences because it focused more on character development than action, George discarded the treatment in favor of another story, which eventually became “Star Wars.”

But he never abandoned its precepts. The earlier material became the back story upon which “Star Wars,” “The Empire Strikes Back” and “Return of the Jedi” would turn. Lucas also knew he had enough raw material to make several other motion pictures, and envisioned a saga which would take place over a sixty-year period. He has always maintained that the narrative link between the films (and trilogies) would be his two lovable 'droids, Artoo-Detoo and See-Threepio, and that each trilogy would be a complete work unto itself. Those guiding principles and the presuppositions drawn from the earlier films have made certain details about the first trilogy somewhat immutable. By the same token, Lucas’s decision to structure his middle trilogy like a classic work of Greek tragedy suggests that the first trilogy might also have the same dramatic structure.

“Star Wars,” like the first act of a Greek play, provides exposition for the major characters, introduces central conflict (which will later be resolved) and ends triumphantly. “The Empire Strikes Back,” like the second act, begins “en medias res” (in the middle of the action), provides a somewhat darker vision of the central conflict and ends with many issues left unresolved. “Return of the Jedi,” the third and final act, resolves all of the conflicts, ties up the loose ends in the denouement and offers some form of redemption or hope. Perhaps “The Clone Wars,” “The Seduction of Darth Vader” and “Fall of the Republic” represent acts one, two and three (respectively) in his new drama. Central to this analogy is also a tragic figure whose “hamartia” (error, transgression or weakness of character) has caused him to fall from grace. Darth Vader, the evil Dark Lord of the Sith, is clearly this tragic figure. When he first appears in “Star Wars,” he is a most reprehensible character, capable of any abomination. But, by the end of the third film, Vader is portrayed sympathetically as a pitiful old man who has made one too many mistakes in his life. He also emerges as the true hero who, by destroying the Emperor, saves not only Luke but also the Rebel Alliance. Clearly then, his struggles as a younger man (Anakin Skywalker) with Obi-wan Kenobi and the Emperor are central to this tale of fall and redemption, and must form the basis of the first trilogy.

Similarly, George’s fondness for the work of classicist Joseph Campbell (in particular, The Hero With a Thousand Faces) reveals a common narrative thread that runs through the stories of both Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. Campbell wrote that heroes in every culture share a common journey that begins with a Separation from home, family and familiar surroundings in what he terms the “call to adventure.” [Some heroes refuse the call, but are later forced by circumstances to take the journey anyway.] And while everyone knows that “a Jedi craves not these things,” these heroic figures are often called upon to undertake a dangerous journey or unknown risk. Their journey into the heart of darkness leads to an Initiation, in which they gain valuable insight about the nature of the universe and themselves from an older mentor. That insight helps them deal with a confrontation with the dark father, wounding, and often dismemberment. Heroes who survive the ordeal are awarded great treasure (in either a physical or spiritual sense), and Return with their treasure to empower or control other men.

“The Adventures of Luke Skywalker” clearly follow this path. Whereas audiences are aware of the final disposition of Darth Vader by the close of “Return of the Jedi,” Anakin Skywalker’s journey as a tragic hero begins nearly twenty years earlier in “The Clone Wars”… THE CLONE WARS Episode One: “The Clone Wars.” “For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic…” Having completed his training as a Jedi Knight, under the tutelage of Jedi Master Yoda, young Obi-wan Kenobi faces his first test as a warrior in the Clone Wars. Audiences know this for a fact because Ben has told Luke that he once “fought in the Clone Wars,” and that he (like Luke) was a “reckless” pupil under Yoda. Leia, in her holographic message, confirms Obi-wan’s story: “General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.” Ben evidentally rises quickly in the service of her father Bail Organa, Viceroy and 1st Chairman of the Alderaan system, and is awarded the rank of general before he is thirty-five or forty. His rank also includes the command of young warriors anxious to become Jedi Knights. In one of the earliest drafts of the screenplay for “Star Wars,” Lucas introduced a general who commanded a group of young boys (aged fifteen to eighteen). Although first reluctant to accept the task, the general instructs the boys to fly one-man “devil- fighters” against superior enemy forces. Kenobi admits to Luke that Darth Vader was “one of my brightest disciples…one of my greatest failures,” so it is possible that Obi-wan first meets Anakin Skywalker while he is training the others.

Perhaps Anakin is, as Luke has been told by Owen Lars, merely “a navigator on a spice freighter,” and only later becomes “the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunnin warrior.” Ben’s decision to train the edler Skywalker would haunt him many years later; but in his younger, more reckless days, the prospect of instructing a young Jedi must have seemed very tempting. Anakin heeds the call to adventure, and follows “Obi-wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade.” That crusade undoubtably concerns eliminating the threat to peace in the Republic caused by the Clone Wars. Meanwhile, in “the bright center of the galaxy,” on the capitol city-planet Aguilae, the young, ambitious Senator Palpatine promises “to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.” He plans to use the current crisis, notably the Clone Wars, to be elected President of the Republic. But some members of the High Council, which governs the Republic, are dubious of Palpatine’s claims, and seek to block his election. These senators include Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and others (who will eventually form the Rebel Alliance). Numbered among these professional diplomats is likely to be the future wife of Anakin Skywalker and the mother of Luke and Leia, call her Lady Arkady (or Arcadia, since Lucas has a tendency to pair couples or siblings with the same vowel or consonant). While this notion is purely speculative, it is founded on one or two facts.

Luke and Leia are noble-born, and Leia is taken “to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan” by her mother. Clearly, a relationship, professional or otherwise, exists between her and Bail. Both See- Threepio, who was programmed as a protocol 'droid, and Artoo-Detoo probably make their first appearance in the series as two robotic, bumbling bureaucrats because George originally envisioned them that way. Their adventures just begin as they leave Aguilae in the company of Bail Organa, Lady Arkady, and the others. When Palpatine is narrowly defeated for the Presidency (as was an ambitious young Richard Nixon, upon whom the senator is modeled), he abandons all conventional means, and seizes power “through subterfuge, bribery an terror.” His first threacherous act is to order to destruction of Organa’s party as they return to Alderaan, with specific instructions to make their deaths appear the result of an enemy raid. “Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce,” he later succeeds in his goal to be elected President of the Republic. So, it is clear that Palpatine controls (or influences through his powers as an evil sorcerer) many Council representatives and numerous guilds (possibly the spacing and mining guilds) within the Republic.

His inevitable emergence as Emperor and the dissolution of the High Council are well-documented in the novelization, Star Wars. On the other hand, the central conflict of the Clone Wars remains a mystery. Few details surface in the books, and even fewer details are revealed in the three films or the earlier drafts of the screenplay. Since Owen Lars deems the wars as “some damned-fool idealistic crusade” (as paraphrased by Ben Kenobi), the struggle must be one of conscience rather than clearly defined lines of a political or military objective. Thus, when Kenobi and his young apprentice Anakin leave (on instructions from Bail Organa), they are undertaking a holy quest. Their crusade is defined only in terms of good and evil. And since a clone is a genetic duplicate grown from human cells, the Jedi Knights are either struggling to preserve that technology or prevent it from being perverted by others (possibly Senator Palpatine) into some terrible weapon.

Obi-wan (O.B.-one) might even be some sort of clone designation, identifying the first clone of a man with the initials O.B.14 – a designation that Kenobi has long since replaced with the name “Ben.” Perhaps, as the Jedi Knights grew fewer in number (through sickness, disease or other natural causes), scientists in the Old Republic were forced to clone their warriors. When news and valuable information about that technology first surfaced, other groups (with sinister motives) may have sought out those scientists to increase their own numbers. The Clone Wars may be nothing more than a struggle to control that powerful secret. And in the end, fearing that the technology might once again be used for evil, the secret of cloning is forever destroyed by the Jedi. The first film is climaxed with the rescue of Viceroy Bail Organa and his party by Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, and the destruction of those evil forces which have threatened the peace of the Republic. One clue to the identity of those evil forces lies in the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back by Donald Glut.

When Boba Fett is first introduced in the novel, he is described as wearing “a weapon-covered, armored spacesuit, the kind worn by a group of evil warriors defeated by the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars.” Perhaps, like “Star Wars,” this prequel ends with a dramatic space battle and the triumphant return of its victors. President-elect Palpatine reluctantly rewards Kenobi and his young apprentice with medals, and Anakin Skywalker finds favor with both Lady Arkady and the former senator. “The Clone Wars,” like the first act of a much longer work, provides exposition for the major characters (Anakin Skywalker, Obi-wan Kenobi, Lady Arkady, Bail Organa and Senator Palpatine), introduces two important conflicts (one, dealing with the Clone Wars, which finds resolution, and the other, concerning the future of the Republic, which awaits resolution) and ends triumphantly. Issues such as Palpatine’s political machinations, Kenobi’s fallibility as a teacher, and the budding romance between Anakin and Arkady remain purposely unresolved until the next film. Central to the unfolding drama is the reckless, young protagonist whose noble soul and innocent nature will be tested by extraordinary circumstances. Separated from his friends and family, Anakin faces Initiation, his first real test as a hero. THE SEDUCTION OF DARTH VADER Episode Two: “The Seduction of Darth Vader.” “Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who had greed to match…” Some time has passed since victory brought an end to the Clone Wars, but in that time boredom and complacency have exacted a terrible toll on the Old Republic. Corruption, bribery and terror have reduced the High Council to all but a devoted few, including Bail Organa and Mon Mothma, while a massive bureaucracy, too large and not very effective, maintains control over the various star systems.

Even the one-great Jedi Knights have been supplanted by Palpatine’s own Sith Lords and their elite guard. “Like the greatest of trees, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside,” Lucas reveals. The portrait that George Lucas paints of the Republic under Palpatine is not a favorable one, and its dark decline casts an even darker shadow on the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi. Typically, the second act in a Greek drama begins “en medias res” (in the middle of the action) and provides a somewhat darker vision of the central conflict with many issues left unresolved at the close. This middle story also represents the climax, or turning point, in Anakin Skywalker’s life. Like all great mythological and literary heroes, he faces his first real test under fire as a warrior. Joseph Campbell refers to this stage metaphorically as “the belly of the whale,” and suggests that, like Jonah, the test of a true hero is one of courage. He further concludes that only by shrugging off fear, anger and aggression (what Yoda deems “the dark side of the Force are they”) does a hero survive to the next level. Not adequately prepared (by Obi-wan) to face this trial (no doubt orchestrated by Palpatine), Anakin apparently succumbs to his fears, and calls upon the quick and easy allies of anger and aggression to see him through.

On Dagobah, Yoda warns Luke not to embrace these emotions: “If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan’s apprentice.” Ben Kenobi later reveals Luke’s “father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.” While little is actually known about Anakin’s courtship and marriage to Lady Arcady, their eventual union produces Luke and Leia. Impatient, reckless and disappointed in his own failures, Anakin leaves his wife and friends to pursue a new course of study under Palpatine – long before his wife’s pregnancy is revealed. Twenty years later, Kenobi explains to Luke that “when your father left, he didn’t know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible.” Obi-wan, a trusted friend and confidant, agrees to kept her secret safe, and much later helps her hide the children. “To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born,” Ben continues his tragic tale to Luke. “I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine…and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.”

The actual events (of the birth and relocation of Luke and Leia) will probably occur in the third film, but the plan itself (like a page torn from Mallory’s L’morte de Arthur) takes seed here in the sacred trust between the knight-errant protector (Obi-wan) and his good friend’s wife. Since Skywalker is such a “powerful Jedi” (according to Yoda), his youth and inexperience are not so easily exploited by Palpatine. But promises of wealth, position and power from the evil sorcerer help gradually turn Anakin to the dark side. A rift eventually forms between Kenobi and his former apprentice, and Obi-wan is forced to take action. “When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought…your father fell into a molten pit,” Ben tells Luke in Jedi. Their climatic struggle over the “molten pit” probably ends the second film, leaving (in typical cliffhanger form) the final disposition of Anakin in question. “When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever – he was Darth Vader… Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will.” Audiences already know his fate, that he survived the pit, but to Kenobi and the others, his death appears certain. When Obi-wan retrieves Anakin’s light sabre (which he will one day give to Luke) from their private battlefield, he bids farewell to a good friend.

Unbeknownst to Kenobi, below him in the fiery pool of death, a scarred hand reaches up for life. Anakin Skywalker may well be dead, but Darth Vader lives… This deadly struggle between Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker may well form the central conflict in the middle film, but its background story must be equally compelling. Like Indiana Jones’s search for the “Lost Ark” or his last crusade to find the “Holy Grail,” much of the action in this character-driven story could be centered around a quest for some great energy source. In George Lucas’s second screenplay for “Star Wars,” completed in January 1975, the primary focus of General Skywalker, Luke Starkiller and Darth Vader was the possession of a Kiber Crystal. [The Kaiburr Crystal was a powerful energy source which gave the owner “such powers over the Force that he would be all but invincible.”] Since Lucas rarely discards ideas, the inclusion of a “maguffin” which drives the story seems logical. Obsessed with possessing the powerful red crystal, Palpatine has dispatched his Sith Lords (including Anakin Skywalker) throughout the galaxy in an effort to find the mythical gem. Anakin’s discovery of the gem might also fuel the growing tension between he and Obi-wan Kenobi. But like Skywalker’s final disposition, resolution about the back story could also wait until the third film. FALL OF THE REPUBLIC Episode Three: “Fall of the Republic.” “Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office . . .” The implication of George Lucas’s words from the novelization of Star Wars suggests that Palpatine himself faces a struggle with his own forces to maintain control of the galaxy.

By this third film, the fall of the Republic is imminent, and chaos and anarchy are at hand unless the Emperor can demonstrate the awesome power of the Dark side. Possession of some great power source, like the Kiber Crystal, is one way; the other is to commit some outrageous abomination that will strike fear and terror into the hearts of those who seek to control him. He chooses to do both. The Emperor’s first action is the resurrection of Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader. Through a montage of scenes, the scarred and corpse-like features of the one-great Jedi are covered by a “bizarre black metal breath screen,” black robes, a flowing black cape, and “black armor --armor which, though black it was, was not nearly as dark as the thoughts drifting through the mind within.” Perhaps, his fellow Sith lords assist him by calling upon the power of the Crystal, or perhaps, Palpatine is alone responsible for his rebirth. In either event, Darth Vader emerges as the ultimate weapon of the Emperor, “more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.” One he is fully restored and operational, the Dark Lord helps the Emperor “hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.” “Having exterminated through treachery and deception the guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy.”

Palpatine’s plan to terrorize the numerous star systems has only just begun. Meanwhile, Obi-wan has managed to escape the slaughter by returning to Dagobah to confess his failure to adequately train Anakin Skywalker with Yoda. Audiences already know how well-informed and knowledgeable the Jedi Master is, and while he may possess an amptitude for mind-reading and clairvoyance, it is somewhat logical to assume that Kenobi would seek out his council. “Most important lesson have you learned! Now a great burden you carry,” Yoda responds to the Jedi’s self pity. When news of the Emperor’s outrageous abomination reaches them on Dagobah, they have but one goal in mind: the rescue of Lady Arcady and her two children. Revenge is simply not a proper emotion for Jedi Knights, and no matter how tempting the destruction of Vader and Palpatine may be, Yoda and Obi-wan must transcend their anger to look at the whole picture. Luke and Leia represent the future of the galaxy, and their safety must be paramount. “The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him,” Ben explains to Luke. Slipping through the Emperor’s hostile defenses, Kenobi manages to rescue Skywalker’s family. Leia and her mother then go to live on Alderaan, in the safety of Bail Organa’s family, while Obi-wan delivers Luke to his brother Owen Lars, possibly stopping first on Dagobah to bid Yoda farewell. (When he arrives on Dagobah, Luke tells Artoo- Detoo “there’s something familiar about this place,” suggesting that he has some childhood memory buried deep in his subconscious.) Kenobi then settles on Tatooine, not far from his brother’s moisture farm, changes his name (to Ben) and awaits the day when the young Luke will heed his own call to adventure. The film ends on a hopeful note. Even though the Republic has fallen to a greedy and corrupt politician and his sinister forces, a new Republic will someday emerge from the ashes of the old.

The story of Anakin Skywalker comes full circle by the close of the third film. In fact, when Darth Vader first encounters Obi-wan Kenobi in “Star Wars,” he says: “The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.” But though his journey as a hero, from separation (as an innocent) to initiation (as a warrior), is seemingly complete, Anakin’s character still awaits redemption and return. His wounding and dismemberment (in the molten pit) at the hands of Obi-wan Kenobi provide only a temporary resolution. When Anakin emerges as the Dark Lord of the Sith, he taken the wrong treasure. He has embraced the power of evil, as possibly amplified by the Kiber Crystal. And as often befalls a tragic hero, who has taken the wrong treasure, he is punished for his actions.

Only much later does Vader learn the real treasure (to be won) is the inner courage that his son demonstrates before the Emperor. For it is that singular act of courage which redeems him, and gives him the strength to destroy Palpatine. Not too long from now…in a neighborhood theatre not that far away, most of the questions that have been raised by the first three films, their novelizations and this article will find resolution in George Lucas’s next epic trilogy. The same space saga, which once mesmerized audiences with the exploits of Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Darth Vader, See-Threepio and Artoo-Detoo will again delight a whole new generation of fans with the future adventures of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi. Few film series in the history of motion pictures have enjoyed such success, or generated such devoted enthusiasm. And now, as preparations get under way on a brand new trilogy, hundreds of millions of fans will begin that final countdown to opening day in 1998 or 2001. May the Force be with us all until then.

Post
#161089
Topic
hardcore haters only
Time
Originally posted by: Han Solo VS Indiana Jones
That reminds me - Wikipedia actually has an article on the "Lucas Bashing Phenomenon".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Lucas_Bashing%22_phenomenon

Of if you don't feel like clicking the URL the article is right here:




More categories to follow soon.


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I am having trouble getting the text when I try the webpage, so please post the full article if you can, this is a great read and utterly fascinating.
Post
#161013
Topic
THE Most Awesome Scene in Star Wars
Time
Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
I do like the film, but there was nothing l hadnt seen before in a film, and as good as it was done it wasnt groundbreaking like Star Wars was at the time(well to me IMO) but then i guess to a young person it would be, now one problem I have other than obvious ones, there are times in the battle when I wonder what side is shooting at what side(maybe i should have read some technical book or it may be just me)


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I feel the same way when I watched the ROTS opening battle, it is so cluttered, and if you don't follow it frame to frame and focus solely on one ship, you really can't figure out sometimes who are the bad guys, and who are the good guys. Then go back and watch the space battle in Jedi, and although you have a ton of ships on the screen it is easy to distiguish who is fighting who. I just think Lucas thought, "Lets see how many ships we can get on screen so people can say, OHHHHHHHHH! That is awesome looking," and then ten years later the effects wears off.
Post
#160808
Topic
What are the worst lines of dialogue from the 6 SW films?
Time
Anakin: "I can't breathe!"

Anakin: "You are in my very soul!"

Anakin: "I dont like sand.......and it gets all over!"

Anything from the fireplace scene in AOTC, that is just a terrible scene

Jar Jar: "I spek"

Jar Jar: "How wude!"

Jar Jar: "Yoosa sayin people gonna die"

Jar Jar: "Weesa freeeeee!" I think he says that at the end of Jedi, please someone tell me I am hearing things?

Vader: "Where is Padme!" He couldn't even write cool dialogue for frickin Vader in the prequels

Little Anakin: Yippeeeee!

C-3PO: "This is such a drag!"

C-3PO: "My parts are showing!"

Mace Windu: "This party is over!"

Droids in TPM: "Roger, Roger!"

Lama Su: "Boba, is your father there?"

I could be here for days, but these are the ones that are the most cringeworthy
Post
#160624
Topic
Empire '97 SE
Time
It is definitely the least changed out of all three movies, so it doesn't bother me as much. As I always said, if Lucas just updated the effects, especially in the original, I probably wouldn't be that mad at the SE, but it is when he changes the scenes (Greedo shooting first, Hayden in ROTJ, and the dance song in ROTJ) that is when I get annoyed, and he just never stops either.
Post
#160506
Topic
Found this quote from Lucas about changing the Original SW
Time
Originally posted by: The Bizzle
I don't think the reason for the forums is to "bash" Lucas at all, but I understand why there's a large annoyance with his decision-making. But there's more to this place than just running in circles playing "I hate Lucas more than you do." I'd like to give everyone here more credit than that.


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I personaly come here because it is the only place regarding Star Wars where you feel that they are fans who didn't love the prequels, didn't love the SE, still want the O-OT on DVD. Sure we all like to vent sometimes toward Lucas, if there were a 'Rocky' forum, I would be on there saying , "Stop Stallone, please no more, don't do Rocky VI." Its only natural that something you like, that you like to express your opinions, and Star Wars is, 28 years later, still near and dear to our hearts.

I think the frustation and anger goes on because most in the forum feel that Lucas has turned his back on those same fans that created his empire in the late 70's/early 80's, and I am sure that no one would be bitching about Greedo shooting first or Hayden in ROTJ, if we had the original movies on DVD. I guarantee you if Lucas released a mega box set with the prequels, and a seamless branching version of the OT with the originals and SE, everyone in this forum would buy it, and nobody would complain. They wouldn't complain cause the set contains TPM & AOTC in it, or the SE, Lucas can do what he wants to his movies, he has every right. I always believe the bitching and complaining about SW now stems from the things we can't get. If the O-OT were released tomorrow on DVD, what there be anymore threads about Hayden in ROTJ? Nobody would care anymore because if we don't like it, we can watch the originals.

Now as I am saying all of this, this is not life or death for me, Star Wars is true entertainment. It doesn't affect my job, my personal life, or anything else, it is just pure escapist fun, and that is why I am passionate about it. Star Wars is my favorite movie of all time, ESB is #2, and Jedi is in my top #10, I just want to watch them the same way I saw them each in the theater in a medium, DVD, that is up to standards of technology, not VHS, not crappy bootlegs, thats it.
Post
#160467
Topic
Found this quote from Lucas about the Fans from May '05
Time
Originally posted by: juicerino
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
TPM and AOTC?!? Fanatical?!? OK, I don't think I would go that far! I like TPM and AOTC, but not like that. What was he thinking? No one is fanatical about TPM and AOTC!


sure they are dude. they're called 10 year old boys. it has become more and more clear. the original star wars appealed to many different age groups, with boys from 13 to 21 being a great portion. these new films are geared for younger kids, and that is a great inherent flaw. its easy for little kids to just love the ships and effects and not even worry about the lack in all other departments, where as 18 year old dudes will pick apart a movie and make sure they know why they like it. that is why you fail George Lucas.


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Totally agree with you and that is why the PT, especially TPM & AOTC, will not pass the test of time 10-20 years from now. When I was 10 years old, and saw Jedi in the theaters, I loved it, to me it was just as good as the original, as I thought at the time ESB was too dark for me.

Fast forward 20 years later, and the consesus among older fans is Star Wars & ESB are debated for the #1 spot, and Jedi is clearly #3, still a very good movie, but as you get older you notice The Ewoks, and realize the Wookie Planet could have been cooler, but we all love the ending, cause it is made for the adults.

Now TPM, these kids who like it now because it looks cool, and great special effects, the Darth Maul duel is action-packed, and Jar Jar is sort-a funny will look back at many of things they loved, and will have grown out of them.

Same with AOTC, as they get older they will wince more at the love story, and begin to notice C-3PO's bad lines in the middle of the clone wars. And think the whole Jango Fett being Boba Fett's father was totally unnecessary.

ROTS, will atleast still have appeal, because it didn't dumb down the movie alot, but by then as they look at the trilogy, and just really like one movie, Star Wars will be an afterthought cause there will be some movie that comes along with better effects and cooler action.

The reason why the OT holds up 28 years later, is the characters! Han, Luke, Leia are the reason those films are lovable. Darth Vader is the ultimate bad guy, especially in ESB. ObiWan is the class of the trilogy, as we can always say we have an academy award winner in our movies, and The Emperor (before his over the top performance in ROTS), Chewbacca, Lando Calrissian, Boba Fett, R2-D2, and C-3PO were some of the most memorable secondary characters. And of course the millenium falcon, the coolest spaceship in the history of movies.

To our generation who grew up with the OT, the special effects and the action made the movies THAT much better, but in the end it is the story and characters that hold up. Hence why we want an inferior effects O-OT on DVD.
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#160465
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Back in Time
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I would go back to the 90's and warn everyone where SW was headed:

To me this is the decade that ruined Star Wars:

1994: The prequels were announced, and everyone had high hopes. Warn someone to storm the editing room and tell them Jar Jar is going to ruin the movie, and also tell Lucas that Anakin creating C-3PO is a stupid idea, and do a flashback scene of a young Anakin so the whole movie isn't a waste.

1997: The Special Editions are announced and the death of the originals. I would tell older fans not to show up to the theater to see them, and the gross for these movies were would be minimal, and Lucas would reconsider if it was worth it to make these changes. Instead SW made 138,000,000 as a re-release, and to Lucas it was a success.

1999: Tell older fans only to see TPM once, not go back a second time just to give it a second shot. I would tell them that I know you guys haven't seen a SW film in 16 years, but I am telling you it sucks. I had friends who saw it more than 2 times, and to Lucas seeing a 431,000,000, no matter what people said, it was a success.

Late 1999: Get a committee of fans to demand not to use an unknown actor named Hayden Christenson as Anakin, tell Lucas to get Spielberg to direct Episode II & III, and bribe Lawrence Kasdan to write the next to prequel screenplays.

By then, maybe AOTC could have been better which would have made ROTS better, and maybe would have the originals on DVD, and only one shitty SW movie of the 6, and I could live with that.

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#160449
Topic
Can we send an O-OT representative to a SW convention?
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Is there anyway we could find out when Rick McCallum or some Lucasfilm higher up will be at one of the upcoming SW conventions, and ask them one simple quesiton:

Will you ever release the O-OT on DVD?

If yes, then when?

Does Lucas understand there is a whole webpage dedicated it?

Does he understand he is alienating a whole base of older fans who now disdain him for his changes to the OT?

Does he realize the money they can make off of a release to O-OT?

There has to be someone to represent our plight at each convention, and if we continue to hammer the point, maybe someone will start listening

Just a thought......
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#160446
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Reasons to hate the Special Editions
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The biggest reason why I hate the SE is real simple....the Originals are not out on DVD.

I would not mind if Lucas would have released both versions on DVD either seperate or on the same disk via seamless branching like The Abyss, because if people like the updated changes and that is Lucas view of them now, all the power to them. But in fairness to the generation that grew up with the OT, we should be able to see the movie we saw in the theater and on HBO eight million times. Come on George, you said in an interview in May you understand there is a rift between over/under 25 year old that love each trilogy, if you are pleasing the under 25 year olds that line your pockets now, why cant you please your fans who lined your pockets to create the Lucas Empire?
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#160231
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Found this quote from Lucas about changing the Original SW
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George Lucas on Sept 21, 2004 defending the changes to the original Star Wars movie:

"When Star Wars came out, and every interview I did, the movie didn't turn out the way I really wanted it to, it is only about 25% of what the movie should be, and I was very depressed about it because it never got finished." People said, "Your out of your mind its the greatest movie ever made! Everybody loves, why would you wanna do anything more?" Lucas then says, " But there are things that need to be there that are not in there."

Don't be fooled guys, Lucas knows people hate the changes, he knows we want the O-OT.

I guess we all fell in love with a movie that was 25% done, man those were the days!
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#160230
Topic
Found this quote from Lucas about the Fans from May '05
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Lucas Talking about the fans of Star Wars at French Press Conference on May 16, 2005

"The older fans are loyal to the first three movies I made, and they are the ones in control of the media. The films that these people don't like, the first two prequels, are fanatically adored by fans under 25. They are always at each others throat about it."


That confirms that Lucas definitely knows about the rift between Star Wars fandom, and to me he knows we want the O-OT on DVD by making a statement that we, the older fans, are loyal to the older trilogy.

I think because most older fans don't like the PT, it makes him dig in even more, and it is almost like his 'Revenge' to say, "OK you want to bury my new trilogy, I'll keep changing the older films to fit my new trilogy so you will never forget Episodes I, II, and III, whether you like them or not.

Don't be fooled by Lucas guys, he knows exactly how we feel, and he always says he doesn't care what people think of his movies, and that he makes them whether we like it or not, B.S., he cares, because he believes the media who he feels loves the OT all of the sudden is the one that is spreading bad news about the Prequels.

But Lucas is also to say that the OT got bad reviews, and the critics never liked Star Wars, but now it is all our fault!

Hey George, make better movies, and we gladly defend them.
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#160138
Topic
The Prequels: What they should have said...
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Here is a change in dialogue at the end of ROTJ when Luke sees Hayden Christenson as the force ghost now:


(Luke gazes at Anakin, ObiWan, and Yoda, and gives a nod to them)

Luke: Wait, who is that next to Yoda and ObiWan?

Alec Guiness: That is your father.

Luke: My father, he looks as old as me, damn he aged really well

Alec Guiness: No, this your father before he became evil

Luke: So what did he stop aging, maybe we should all become Sith's so we could look like that at 60 years old

Yoda: The situation, you are not understanding Luke

Luke: I am just saying that I'm this friggin jedi, and if I have the chose to look like an old man like you ObiWan or my dad, who still looks like a decent looking guy.

(Leia comes over to talk to Luke)

Leia: Luke, let me talk to you for a second. Do you know why are dad looks so frickin young compared to those old fossils next to him

Luke: Yeah, we have really good genes.

(Han Solo steps in)

Han: Luke, IT IS A PLOT HOLE!

Luke: Now I get it, so now in the Star Wars universe because of these three new movies, nothing makes sense anymore, and everything that we went through in our movies gets contradicted by the new ones?

Leia: Exactly

Luke: I see...........................But he still aged well!

Leia: (talking under her breath) He probably like the prequels, what an idiot.
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#159854
Topic
The Prequels: What they should have said...
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This is from a new scene added in ESB Super Duper Special Edition DVD when Han Solo is about to be frozen in carbonite:

(Just as Vader gives the OK to send Solo in carbonite)

Vader: Wait, what is on Chewbaccas back

Solo: That is C-3PO

Vader: My C-3PO

Solo: What do you mean, yours?

Vader: I created him.

Solo: No you didn't

Vader: Well up to this point you're right, but there is this backstory and I make C-3PO

Leia: Is that a joke, whose idea was that?

Vader: I believe it was Lucas.

Leia: Wait a second, you are this icon, this badass, choking guards in this movie, blowing up planets, and you created C-3PO?

Vader: It gets worse, see this guy next to me, Boba come here.

Boba Fett: Yes, Lord Vader

Vader: This guy is the clone template for the stormtroopers

Solo: Are you kidding me, what are they doing to our trilogy?

Vader: I am not done yet, Your boy Chewbacca over there is boys with Yoda

Solo: What, he never told me he hung out with Yoda?

Vader: Yeah, it was this quick scene in ROTS, so Lucas could market it to the older fans to get their fannies back into the seats because of the first two turds he put out.

Leia: Please is there anymore?

Vader: Do you know why I am Darth Vader?

Leia: Because you were corrupted by power?

Vader: No, it was a bad dream,

Leia: A dream, did you consult a pshyciatrist?

Vader: No................I never thought of that................I went to this leader of the galaxy, who turned out to be the sith we were looking for, and he told me I could save my wife, but never really showed me, and then she died, and I'm stuck in this suit...............

Leia: That is kinda dumb?

Vader: Welcome to the prequels.
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#159850
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A list of strange interpretations in the Prequels.
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Where to begin................This is such a great topic.

Now after watching all 3 prequel movies, TPM is a big waste of 2 hours. The key relationship in the prequels is Anakin/Padme and Anakin/Kenobi and Anakin/Palpatine, and because Lucas made him 10 years old, which could have been done in a very specific 20 minute flashback to explain him being a cute innocent kid, there is no development in any of these relationships at all.

When we get to AOTC, Anakin/Palplatine have one small scene togther, so Lucas waits til Episode III for Palpatine to really start to manipulate, and I have to say those, because of McDiarmid's acting is great, are really good scenes, but that is why the turn is so rushed, because the manipulation is not played out over three movies. Now Lucas says in the commentary, it should be assumed by the viewer that Palpatine has been manipulating him for years, and Lucas is probably right, but, damnit, SHOW US THIS STUFF! That is the whole point of the prequels is the show the specific conflicts and problems these characters faced, instead of everything is assumed, or read the books, or watch the clone war cartoon.

ObiWan/Anakin friendship was never developed, again because it had three movies to do so, but it was non existent in TPM because Anakin was too young, and QuiGon was really his master. AOTC, we get the first 15 minutes and they go on a wild goose chase for a bounty hunter, and then they meet in the end at the start of the Clone Wars. They finally don't get any really good screentime together until Episode III. Again, at the starting of AOTC, when they are riding up the elevator to meet Padme after the second movie jumped 10 years, Lucas says in the commentary, it is assumed by their banter that they have become very good friends, and this scene was put in there to show that, so the next scene when Kenobi yells at him, you see they have a love/hate relationship. Again George, instead of just letting the viewer assume it, SHOW US, give us three solid movies of their friendship, and then the viewer will understand why they are good friends. Luke, Leia, and Han by the end of ROTJ you know they would die for each other, because Lucas did such a great job of SHOWING how much they cared for each other. Every movie either Han or Luke were saving each others life, remember Solo in ESB, "Thats two you owe me junior!"

Anakin/Padme relationship again was handled badly because you never understood why either of them fell in love with other. I guess it was looks, but atleast that is a reason many people get together! Lucas should have spent AOTC not having them stand still and fall in love on Naboo, borrrring! Have them be tracked the whole movie by a bounty hunter who is after Padme, have them be in a sense of danger the whole movie, and show how great Anakin is as a Jedi by constantly getting them out of trouble. Have Padme be in love with Anakin cause she realizes he has many flaws, and he is very unpredictable, but he is probably one of the greatest jedis ever, this guy is a legend to the galaxy. Just show that he is in a sense marrying up to a Senator or Queen, he is going out with the prom queen. When ObiWan is on Kamino they are some of the best scenes in the movie, then it cuts to Naboo, and it just brings the movie to a halt, that is why many disdain AOTC.

I could go on all day, but my thesis for writing this is Lucas never really developed the relationships of these 4 main characters of the prequels, instead he was worried about Jar Jar fumbling and bumbling around in TPM, and digital Yoda doing Sonic the Hedgehog moves in AOTC, and then he had to rush the real stuff in ROTS, which does make ROTS the best out of the prequels, but if the first two movies were better developed ROTS could have been a classic.
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#159628
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The Prequels: What they should have said...
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Here is the uncut version of ROTS that Lucas edited the last minute before its release.

Droid: We don't understand, we are losing her.

Kenobi: She's dying?

Droid: She seems to lost the will to live.

Kenobi: Are you serious?

Droid: Yes

Kenobi: Oh man, since Return of the Jedi, I was waiting for this great answer to know the fate of Anakins wife, and this is what George wrote?

Yoda: Perplexing, it is.

Kenobi: Let me atleast hold little Leia up to Padme so she can remember her mom someway.

Yoda: Plot hole, I believe is developing.

Bail Organa: No, Leia remembers my wife from ROTJ, didn't you listen ObiWan?

Kenobi: No, Luke said to Leia, your real mom? This is driving me nuts

Yoda: Bad writing, bad dialogue, stilted acting, Padme dying of the will to live is the least of our problems with these three movies.

Droid: Sir, Padme seems to be saying something in her last breath.

Kenobi: Padme, hold on.

Padme: Obi......Wan......You.....will.......be.........digitally.........inserted.........at............the..............end..............of the new...........ROTJ...............DVD................out in 2007!

Kenobi: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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#159613
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My take (long)
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Originally posted by: Switch Radic
so he just lost hiss edge once ESB was done? hmm.... that's sad. I can think of ways he could have gone beyond what he had done. Well, that's not really true, at least not off the top of my head. But there is always something. There is always something out there that nobody has ever done before and whatnot. If I were him, I'd have turned to more experimental stuff to just try new things and expand, but i guess he never did. It's funny, since hitchcock, films haven't been the same in a way. the inventive spirit is almost nill right now. Sad...sad...sad...


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Actually, this is where I'll give Lucas credit, he made Raiders of the Lost Ark in 1981, a year after ESB, but he didn't direct, he didn't write the screenplay, he just produced and wrote out the basic story, and let Spielberg direct it to be a classic, just like ESB. Hey I think Lucas is a great storyteller, and also with a director like Spielberg, Lucas is a perfect Executive Producer, but on the prequels he did everything, and that is where he failed.
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#159602
Topic
My take (long)
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Originally posted by: Switch Radic
so what exactly made Lucas "lose his hunger" as you put it? This is the only thing that interests me at this point.


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Success. It happens to alot of great people in their field who succeed to a greater rode then they thought. I don't think Lucas thought Star Wars would ever be the success it was, and probably no one else did either.

Sometimes when you reach the pinnacle, unfortuanately the only way is down. Now Lucas is not the only this has ever happened to. Look at many great actors who win a best oscar award, and then 10 years later then never make a good movie again, it is because they were content with the oscar and felt where do I go from here? Many athletes or coaches win a championship and never have that same drive again. Look at Jimmy Johnson who coached the Cowboys to two superbowls in the 90's, he then took over the Dolphins and never had that hunger to be the best, now he lives the good life in Florida on his boat and works once a week on Fox Sunday with Bradshaw and Howie Long.

I am not degrading Lucas, but it does happen to the best of them. When he made ESB, he said to Kershner, "This movie has to be better than Star Wars, if it isn't than there are no more movies." Lucas knew he HAD to succeed with Empire, it had to be great, hell he financed it with his own money, if it didn't, he would be bankrupt, that takes a lot of guts. After ESB, he became the head of his own company, and he had made it, and deserves kudos from many fans that hate him so much now, but finally making it to the top to become independent turned out to be his worst enemy. By doing everything on the prequels: Writing, Directing, etc. the movies showed his directorial flaws, and that is why alot of people on this site have problems with those movies. Even Lucas admits he hates writing, so go out and get a damn screenwriter!

Look at many directors who are past their prime, when was the last time Coppola did a good movie, or Brian Depalma, or when was the last time James Cameron made a movie? Not since he won an oscar. It happens to the best of them, unfortunately Lucas didn't know when to stop.
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#159563
Topic
My take (long)
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I agree with everyone here that Lucas never had this grand vision of all these movies. Star Wars is definitely a stand alone movie, and I wish the younger generation would understand that, because unfortunately they see it as Episode IV of six episodes.

Did you Lucas have more ideas outside the original movie, I believe he did. Was anything written in stone, that is where I believe that not to be true. I'm sure when he was writing out the original Star Wars, I actually do believe he had other notes on what happened to everyone and how they got there. But I believe they were just rough draft notes of basic ideas.

Lucas probably had a million ideas of maybe Vader was Lukes father, or maybe he killed Lukes father? Who is the emperor, and will we ever see him if I make a sequel, nah, maybe just let people imagine this great ruler of the galaxy. In the end he probably had a million different ideas jotted down in his binder, some he used and some he threw away.

The one big lie George says presently is that the saga was always about these two twins and their father (This was said on the documentary on the OT DVD release) That is a bunch of B.S. I don't believe he ever had intended when he made the original SW for Luke & Leia to be siblings, hence the whole family affair idea doesn't work for me. I think he went with Leia being Lukes sister, after Vader being Lukes father went over so well with the public, that this would be the 'twist' for Jedi, but it had the opposite effect.

As for 12 episodes or 9 episodes or 6 episodes, I believe at one time when Lucas was still hungry and creative he may had a grand design of say 3 trilogies of SW films of 3 generation of Skywalkers, but then realized he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with this project anymore. That is why when Lucas says it was always 6 movies, the birth, life, fall, and redemption of Darth Vader, that is a bold face lie too.

Did Star Wars need any sequels, not really, but the OT works for me well. The original is still my favorite movie of all-time, but ESB is #2 right behind it, and though I feel it is a better movie than the original, the magic and charm of the first one always wins me over in the end. Jedi, though it is a good movie, is where Lucas began to lose his creativity, and if hindsight was 20/20, after analyzing what is wrong with Jedi, I would have never gotten hyped about the prequels, cause I feel SW hit the pinnacle in 1980, and I don't think Lucas had the hunger to make another classic movie, he just wanted something good enough, and in the end, whether we like it or not, he has made a boatload of money off of a whole trilogy of inferior films compared to the OT. But as I said, I still like Jedi alot because it does give closure to the saga, which is like closure to our childhood, and the end with Vader/Luke/Emperor is as good as Star Wars can get.

Overall, I really don't listen to Lucas much anymore about his grand vision, because you can google some old interview from 15-20 years that will contradict something he said. It is a shame because he wants the saga to be about Anakin Skywalker and it just doesn't sell to me, I grew up with the story of Luke, and that is how I will always see it. It is a shame because the younger generation who love the PT now are missing out on a great experience of just watching the original Star Wars for what it originally was, a fun space adventure with lovable characters and really cool bad guy. Now they look it at as some inferior special effects movie, that is totally out of place with the first three prequels they just watched. I guess it's their loss.
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#159459
Topic
Why Leia remembers Padme but Luke doesn't
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Originally posted by: ricarleite
Why Leia remembers Padme but Luke doesn't: because it's a plothole.

It wasn't a plothole back in '83 though.


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That is the difference between the OT & PT, and why there are no plotholes for the OT. When the OT was made, not everything was explained, not everything went into detail, so you could question on why something was that way, Leia remembering her mom, but Luke not? But in the end, we never got any backstory, so in a sense the vague story of each character in the OT made it easy not to question any plot holes.

Now on to the PT, the reason for the PT, is to explain everything that led up to the OT. Now this is hard if everything isn't planned out, as Lucas just had 25 pages of rough notes. Everything in Episodes I, II, and III has to be described and double checked to match the OT or you will start to find many contradictions in the overall story. That is why the PT, for me personaly, doesn't match up well with the OT, and I have a hard time watching 1-6, and not notice these major flaws in the story.

And I still don't buy Leia remembering her mom through force memories, that is such a lazy excuse, and it cheapens the force.