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Post
#159196
Topic
Why the saga has suffered because ESB was so good (IMO)
Time
One example of the opposite happening toward the PT hurting the OT:

I was talking to a friend the other day who is a big Lord of the Rings fan, and we were comparing Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, and I was saying how bad the PT is compared to the Lord of the Rings. He replied, "Yeah, but the old SW fans, they are classics, the new ones are crap, I have alot of respect for the old trilogy.

Now it is funny he said this cause growing up he hated SW, and never understood the big fuss, but maybe cause the PT was bad or in his perception he thinks they suck, it has elevated a movie trilogy that he never liked to classic status. So maybe in the end, the PT is helping the OT, because of the backlash, the PT will bear the brunt of anger and the OT can wallow as a classic.

It is just from one friend of mine, but it is interesting how peoples perception changes over time.
Post
#159194
Topic
Why the saga has suffered because ESB was so good (IMO)
Time
Originally posted by: The Bizzle
That's the thing--even if I DIDN'T like The Prequels, I wouldn't consider them having "brought down" the first three (or two, really) in the same way I don't consider remakes "bringing down" original versions of movies. They're separate entities. I don't consider "Batman and Robin" to have brought down "Batman" or "Superman IV" to have brought down "Superman," or "Alien Resurrection" to have brought down "Alien." Not at all. It's a lot more effort to actually CONNECT those movies and make them fit into each other, if I don't like one of them, than it is to just write the crappy movie off.

There's no tainting or pungent aroma listing around the ones I like because of the ones I don't like. I won't be watching a scene and suddenly go "Oh wow, this is shit, because 10 years later some dude made another movie about some of the same stuff." that doesn't make any sense, to me.


Text

I agree with you on those points, because no matter how bad the prequels are, Star Wars & ESB to me are still classics, and nothing will ever change that. I think when people say the PT brought down the OT, they are just saying on how the public looks at the movies. Back in 97 when the SE came out, George Lucas was still untouchable to the public and fans, and could do no wrong. Fast forward to each prequel movie, and now people are pointing out that he can't do anything right, and will this one be as bad as TPM. Even ROTS, who seem to be the consesus as the best prequel, now that isn't saying its great though, it was still given the usually ribbings: Bad acting, bad dialogue, stilted performances, overuse of CG.

As I said it isn't really for us , I guess it is an ego thing that SW was always the best trilogy out there, and nothing ever came close, then Lord of the Rings, and The Matrix, and even Spiderman were made during the Prequels, and were either better received by the public or outgrossed Star Wars, so it wasn't the 800 lb. gorilla anymore. From 1977-1983, Star Wars was the king of the world, and I think many of us feel that the PT has cheapened that.
Post
#159124
Topic
Do you think Lucas really knows there is demand for the O-OT on DVD?
Time
I am being serious now, but do you think Lucas really knows how much the older fans want the O-OT on DVD. Here are a couple of theories about Lucas:

1. Maybe he saw the success financially of the prequels, and thinks everyone is hunky-dory with the state of the SW saga?

2. Maybe he just lives in a box, and just has no idea that there is a demand for the O-OT?

3. Maybe no one at Lucasfilm has the guts to say to him how much the older fanbase is pissed off at the changes, and how alienated they have become, and thinks everyone loves the new editions?

4. Maybe he is just stubborn and hates the originals, especially ANH, so much he will never put them out?

5. Maybe he just doesn't care, and these are the final editions and we have to live with it?


A couple of theories, what you think?
Post
#159106
Topic
Why Leia remembers Padme but Luke doesn't
Time
I always thought it would be more dramatic if Padme did not die, but was forced to chose which child to take to Alderran. Kenobi and Yoda could have told her because they are in danger being with the force, splitting them up makes sense that atleast one can survive if the other twin is found.

Then you could have a dramatic moment for Padme to chose which child to take. You could have her sobbing as she decides to take Leia, and Kenobi wisks Luke away to Tattoine. You could have her one more time arguing with Kenobi to keep both children, but in the end for their safety, she knows they are right. In a sense that would have been just as tragic as Padme dying, having her husband turn to the darkside and losing a child because they are in danger from him.

They could have then faked Padme's death at the end of ROTS, and assume she dies between III & IV, and then Leia remembering her mom would make sense, but still be dramatic.

The prequels.....what if......We could write a book on this stuff.
Post
#159091
Topic
If the Prequels had been made first would they have succeeded?
Time
It would have never succeeded because the characters aren't lovable (IMO). Though the story is great in the OT, and the effects knocked our socks off, Luke, Leia, and Han were three of the ultimate good guys to root for, and Darth Vader was ultimate bad guy to hate (or love). The Prequels, especially TPM, had none of the above. How could fall in love with QuiGon or an underused Kenobi, or a montone Padme, or Jar Jar? Or think Darth Maul was great when he was only in it for 5 minutes?

Characters, characters, characters, Lucas missed the boat on that one in the PT.
Post
#159087
Topic
phantom menace first thoughts
Time
I remember walking out with my older brother and the two friends I grew up with, and we all loved the OT, and we were just kinda of like...uhh?

I remember saying it wasn't bad, but...... and another friend said, well.......it was.....pretty good? That is when Star Wars naitivity began to set in the fanbase. Instead of just saying whether it was a good or bad movie, like every frickin movie you see in our lives, we had to justify our answers with a but....

Here were the justifications on the ride home for us:

1. Well, it is the first movie, and a setup movie for the next two, he can't give us too much plot.
Rebuttal: Fellowship of the Ring that was a setup of three movies, they were able to advance the plot pretty well in that movie.

2. Anakin has to be nine years old, we have to see him as a cute kid.
Rebuttal: 20 minute flashback scene

3. It is kinda kiddy, but it isn't suppose to be dark until Episode III
Rebuttal: That doesn't mean you have to make it for 5 year olds!

4. Jar Jar.........We were all annoyed from day one about him, there was no rebuttal because he was annoying the minute he walked on screen. What the hell was Lucas thinking, he is the worst character in the history of movies

After AOTC, our justification was that it wasn't a great movie, but it was better than TPM. Now looking back, AOTC is another average movie, that could have been better.

Finally, ROTS to me was the only good prequel movie, but I can understand why older fans like myself don't like it or love it. They were burned for 2 movies, and by then, were so poisoned by Lucas, ROTS didn't have a chance. Plus the bad turn scene, and Padme dying of the will to live, it didn't help matter either.

Overall, Lucas to me never made lovable characters in the PT, and putting aside the failing of the movies, the characters were the #1 failure. I should have loved Padme & Anakin, and when their fates were sealed at the end of ROTS, I should have really felt for them as she died, and he was stuck in this body of armor for the rest of his life.

Anakin, should have been like a great athlete who is a wildcard, but was loved by the people and not necessarily loved by the Jedi. Lucas should have shown Anakin being heralded for being the top jedi during the Clone Wars, being the Michael Jordan of the galaxy, but his arrogance, like many star athletes, and their belief that they are indestructable, are the reasons for their downfall. Show him learn even greater powers from Palpatine, and make the audience feel that Anakin loves the darkside, but knows it is wrong deep down inside. Have the dream of Padme as a subplot, just something else to drive him there, not the sole reason. Anakin never turned to the darkside, he just wanted to save Padme, that was a real lame reason.

Sorry about the rant off topic, but once I start thinking of what if for the PT, I could go on and on......
Post
#159084
Topic
Wookies vs Ewoks in ROTJ.
Time
Hmmm.... The wookie planet......The Ewoks to me are the only weak link of the OT. Now thanks to Jar Jar, I don't hate them nearly as much, but a wookie planet would have made ROTJ cooler. That is all, it just would have been less kiddy. I understand Lucas wanted the Ewoks to be like David vs. Golaith, but he made them just a bit too cutesy than they should have been. But as I said, the kiddy crap he put in TPM, the Ewoks in ROTJ don't seem all that bad now.

What if he digital enhanced Gungans to replace the ewoks? I think we would storm the gates of LucasRanch!
Post
#159070
Topic
Rank the changes made to the OT from worst to best (or least worst?)
Time
Worst
1. Hayden inserted in ROTJ, it means we have to think about the PT, even if we don't like them, that is BS
2. Greedo shooting first, this is the first change of Lucas we should have picked up that he was a different person from the OT days
3. The Jedi Rocks song in ROTJ, it is embarrasing to watch, and I feel like I am watching MTV in a galaxy far,far,away
4. Naboo with Jar Jar celebrating in ROTJ, again something that ties the PT to the OT
5. The Jabba scene in ANH, awful and ruins the mystique of Jabba in ROTJ
6. Boba Feet flirting with female aliens in ROTJ, WTF is that all about?
7. Changing the whole ending of ROTJ instead of following our heroes more, instead we get to see more cities celebrating. What do they have CNN, how do they know the Emperor and DS II have been destroyed so quick?

Did I mention Hayden in ROTJ, this one to this day is the reason I finally turned on Lucas about the O-OT, and wanting it so badly. The Special Effects changes I could live with, but once you change the story, that is insulting. Growing up and seeing ROTJ at 10 years old, my favorite scene was at the end with old Sebastian Shaw as Anakin, and you finally felt like he was redeemed being there next to Yoda and Kenobi. Now I would clamor for the damn 97 SE if he put them out just so I could get that scene back. Damn you Lucas, you went to far with your changes!

Thank you for this thread, now my blood is boiling!
Post
#158692
Topic
Why the saga has suffered because ESB was so good (IMO)
Time
I guess my post is a little unclear, but I think with the success of ESB, and Lucas finally had his franchise, his authority, and his ability to make the movies he wanted, did he then have the drive to make another truly remarkable SW movie(s) after that.

After ESB, every movie has their flaws, and we can agree on about 95% of the time what those flaws are of each. Is it just a coincidence that the same exact stuff from the SE bother us? Han shooting first, the Jedi band song in ROTJ, and Hayden inserted into Sebastian Shaws place, every fan who wants the O-OT blood begins to boil when I mention these changes!

I guess the real question is did George know that he could put out a good, but maybe not great movies, and still make a boat load of money? The answer to that question is yes. Whatever we want to say about the PT, it was a financial success. Now it got creamed by the critics, especially TPM & AOTC, and many older fans like myself were disillusioned, but do you think Lucas really cares? He made his money, and though he may have alienated his older fans, there are newer ones who love the action and effects that will take their place.

Maybe ESB was such a success, that it wasn't worth it to try to make the perfect movie, and just make it good enough that people will like them. In saying this, I don't think Lucas sits there when he is writing a movie, and says, "I am ready to write an average movie, I don't want to make this good." That is an exaggeration. I just think that good sometimes, is good enough. Just look at how he resolved Leia remembering her mother, that is shabby storytelling, and to me is just being lazy and not creative. But I'm sure Lucas couldn't figure a way for all to make sense, and in the end just rely on the force.

Post
#158353
Topic
Why the saga has suffered because ESB was so good (IMO)
Time
I have been assessing the whole SW saga since ROTS, and have been perplexed on why I love the OT, but don't love the PT. I enjoy moments of the PT at times, but then other times I get so mad that they could have been better, that I just put my hands up and result to being a fan pre-1999.

I finally came up with a theory for myself, and maybe others feel this way: ESB is a classic, and no Star Wars movie ever reached those heights again. For 25 years now, I have been deluded myself into thinking that SW, the saga, is greater than it is. That is the reason I still latch on to the prequels, watching them every once in a while, just to see if I am missing something, I am hoping maybe this time I will love these films.

When SW came out in 1977, I loved it, and to this day it is my favorite film of all-time, love the characters, the story, Vader, the effects, the music. Then ESB came along, and did the unthinkable for a sequel, it one-upped everything about the original. The characters were more interesting, the story got more involved making it a much bigger universe, Darth Vader was even cooler in this one, the effects were much better, and the music was even better too.

Since ESB, I have been naive about the saga, the other movies have their moments, but just aren't great movies. Now ROTJ gets a pass from many from the OT generation, because it completes the trilogy, gives us closure from the first two movies, still has the lovable characters: Han, Luke, and Leia, and if you put them in any movie I will root for them, and finally it did one scene right: Vader/Emperor/Luke finale, that was the key to the whole trilogy, and Lucas & Co. nailed that scene to perfection.

But is ROTJ a great movie? No way. Is it a good SW movie, yes. That is the problem with the post-ESB movies is they all have their moments of SW fun and enjoyment, but they also have their negatives which cant be ignored:

ROTJ: Great finale, but those damn ewoks and the jabba scene goes on too long
TPM: Darth Maul ignited his double blade was cool as hell, but Jar Jar, Jar Jar, and an 8 year old Anakin?
AOTC: The Clone Wars and the last half hour of the movie move at a frantic pace, but the love story, UGGH!
ROTS: We finally get to see the duel, and Yoda vs. Sidious, but the 'turn scene' and Padme losing the will to live?

My point is that out of 6 SW movies, there are only 2 great ones to me. That is 33%! Now as I said, if it was just Episode IV,V,VI, then 66% would be great with a good ending, and since 1983 I have never had a problem with that. But 3 more movies that aren't great, I just don't see it as the great saga anymore.

If ESB would have been a good/or pretty good sequel, I think most older fans like myself wouldn't be fans of the saga. We would love the original, and like the sequels (or how many there were made after that) and be content. But when ESB was equal to the Star Wars, all of the sudden you think, why can't every movie after that be a classic? And through the prequels I have constantly built them up that way, this is the next ESB. But that never happened.

In the end, if I try to see it 1-6, it is too hard for me, cause that is when I see 2 great movies, and four average movies, and it just doesn't fit for me. If I see it as 4-6, as I had since 1983, I don't question as much, because the originals left all those questions unanswered. In hindsight, as I look at it now, I kinda liked those questions left up to the imagination.
Post
#157427
Topic
If the O-OT ever came out, the future of SW is with the PT fans.
Time
Lets just say for a minute that Lucas decides to put out the O-OT on DVD next year, and everyone (mostly) on this website and most older fans will finally have what they have wanted for the last 8 years. For me personally, that will finally be closure of Star Wars for me, I wouldn't care about another release, or the 6 box set, the ultra editions, the super duper editions, it would mark the end of my support for Star Wars. I finally have what I want, and that is it.

Will the PT fans, who love those movies now, support it 10 years from now when Lucas does the 35th or 40th anniversary release like we did. Will the 3 prequel movies hold up, where those fans still love them like we did the original 3 films to this day?

This is not to belittle the PT fans, but 'I have a bad feeling' that the PT won't pass the test of time like the OT, and they may not be as loyal as we were for the past 28 years. Now of course there are fans of the PT that will always love Star Wars, and always love all 6, and that will be a substantial base, but will it be able to carry a re-release 10 years from now to record numbers like the 97 SE did?

I just feel that many, not all PT fans enjoy the effects of the new movies, and in 10 years, those effects will feel like something of the past, and many fans will move on to something more cutting edge. Now as I said, there are some who love the story, and I feel they will stay with the saga forever, just like us.

Just wondering.....
Post
#157405
Topic
redeeming lucas
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
That's a purely subjective idea. Lucas is Lucas, always was, and he hasn't changed character. The SE and PT were what he wanted them to be. The OOT, was not.
Bullshit. I accept that there were budgetary and technological limitations back in 77 when he was making Star Wars and perhaps the movie was not quite the grand space opera he envisioned in his head. However, story changes and all the rest of it are the actions of an aging, obsessed Billionaire. What can redeem him? Realise and acknowledge his mistakes and rerelease the original trilogy as it was. If he really wants he can then release a new special edition, with vastly improved effects but NO character or story changes, which I would actually quite like to see.


Except, once again, "mistakes" are in the eye of the beholder. Any changes he made, he desperately wanted made, and couldn't care less about what others thought of it. The reason he doesn't release the original versions is that he doesn't really care about film history and preservation, in regard to his own films. He wants future generations to remember them the way he wants them, not the way they were. It is obvious to me that he wants to erase the OOT for good. So, with his mentality, there never will be a DVD release of the OOT since, like I said before, to him, they are merely "early drafts."

And, he's already said, if fans want the OOT, they can get it on Laserdisc or VHS.



I can't wait til Lucas starts to change around the PT, and somewhere down the line there will be a change that will piss you off.

I didn't mind the SE in 97, and wasn't that mad as others about Han shooting first. But when Hayden was inserted into Sebastian Shaw in the ROTJ DVD, that was the breaking point for me. It wasn't a special effects change, it wasn't cleaning up the negative, it was a change in the whole story. Now, whether you like the PT or not, whenever you watch that scene, the PT was tied to the OT forever.

As I said, somewhere down the road Lucas is gonna change something that you think is wrong, and he'll say as always, "These are my movies, and this is my vision." And you'll be bitching like the rest of us.

Text
Post
#156975
Topic
"You don't know the power of the dark side! I must obey my master"
Time
Everytime I watched ROTJ, that line said by Vader to Luke, "You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master." I really thought that meant something much more before ROTS last May.

Now I actually like ROTS, it is the only prequel I enjoyed, but this line from Jedi doesn't seem as powerful as before. Why must he obey his master now? Before it was about saving Padme, but after she died, why must he obey him?

I always thought before ROTS, that Vader was seduced by the darkside, not tricked to the darkside, and when he says he must obey his master, I always thought The Emperor put a show of force on Vader if he ever tried something on him, to make him think twice about taking him out as a Sith.

Everyone probably looks at Anakins turn differently, so what do you guys think? I just think that scene with Luke & Vader lost alot of its luster cause now Vader was tricked to the darkside, not seduced.
Post
#156876
Topic
Should GL have made the ST and then do the PT later
Time
I always thought the major problem with the PT instead of the ST trilogy would be the characters. When you make a set of movies, and people love the characters, it is very hard to make another set of characters that are just as much loved in that same universe. Think of Back to the Future prequel about Doc Brown, but no Marty McFly? Think of the Matrix about just Morpheus and no Neo? Characters, characters, characters, that is what draws people to love movies.

The PT for me and alot of older fans had very inferior characters to the OT. Padme was always a weak character compared to Leia, Anakin for many including myself was miscast, and Lucas always portrayed him as the anti-hero, so we would always feel sorry for him. There was no Han Solo character, in which the PT desperately needed.

The ST would have reunited the big three from the OT, but could Lucas stike lightning in a bottle for another three movies? The more I think about it, he should have stopped after ROTJ.
Post
#156419
Topic
who hates george lucas
Time
No, I don't hate him, because when he is just talking in interviews, he really is a humble guy. The problem is he became so arrogant and obsessed with making every decision on Star Wars, more so in the prequels, that he really hurt the series.

The SE, I could understand he wanted to update effects, and actually don't have a problem with it, it is just the changes to the story that bother me. He gave in on Han Shooting first, he put Hayden in at the end of ROTJ, and the Jedi Rocks song in the jabba palace is so bad, I feel like they have a tv in there and MTV is on!

The prequels, and I guess starting with Jedi, he started inching toward the kiddies, and the movies sufferered. ROTJ is still great, cause the space battle is the best ever in the history of movies, and they got right the one thing that needed to be right: Vader/Emperor/Luke scene. That scene is so well done with real tension and drama, and great music, it makes up for the flaws of the Ewoks and the slower Jabba scene at the beginning.

TPM, was written too much for kids. Jar Jar, is so bad, if there weren't a bunch of yes men, as shown in the documentary on the DVD, someone would have edited him to a bare minimum in the movie. To this day, he ruins EVERY scene he is in. The ending has no tension, no drama. And the four main characters you follow through Tattoine: QuiGon, Padme, Jar Jar, and R2-D2 with the secondary characters being Obi Wan and little Anakin give me no attachment like Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewbacca, those characters were pure gold.

Then Lucas said, while filming TPM, I will direct this one, and have someone else direct Episode II & III, and what happened Lucas the authoritarian directed all 3! He was like Anakin, he wanted more power! AOTC, though I feel and many do not, is a step better than TPM. Jar Jar has about 5 minutes, it is alittle more adult, but the love story is just plain BAD. Hayden was a bad pick by Lucas, he is not a great actor, and it hurts the prequels because of it. Lucas just got a good looking guy, thinking this should be enough. But when the crucial scenes of real drama were needed, Hayden & Natalie having zero chemistry, and bad direction, dropped the ball.

ROTS, atleast for me personally, redeemed Star Wars. I really thought leading up it would be as good as the original and ESB, but after seeing it, I liked it, actually really liked it, but finally realized that I was living in fantasy land that Lucas would ever make a classic Star Wars film again. I mean, in my opinion, he hasn't made a classic Star Wars film since 1980, what will make him change now. The ending of ROTS had a enough tie-ins to the OT that it was satisfying for me, but just as a prologue to the OT, not a prequel. I am sorry, but I don't see it as the story of Anakin, the continuity between 1-3 & 4-6 just don't work.

To me, Star Wars is a prime example of how great a saga can be, and how it can be thrown away by its same success. That is the irony of Star Wars, Lucas went through alot of personal anguish to get the first made, and he had the fire and hunger to make it succeed, and it is one the of the greatest movies ever. ESB had to be great, cause he was financing it, and it would build his empire, Lucasfilm. He told Kersh before ESB, "This has to be better than Star Wars, cause if it isn't then we don't make any more movies." Then once he succeeded, the collaboration slowly diminished, they realized the merchandising was a money maker, and ESB being a very dark movie, and grossing half of the original, maybe a little lighting the mood in the next movie will bring a bigger base in, and ROTJ grossed the same as ESB.

The Prequels, did bring in new fans, but now we have fans looking at a great saga many different ways: Some see it as 1-6, some only see it as 4-6, some say you should only watch it 4-6,1-3, and some are in the middle like myself at 3-6. Some want the more changes to integrate the two sagas even more, more Emperor in ANH, etc. Some just want the original movies that first appeared in the movies in the late 70's/early 80's. Some hate Lucas, some gush over him like he is god, some thought he was god, and now resent everything he has done to the saga.

Do I hate him, NO, do I think he has screwed up the saga, YES. The one thing that really bothers me, is through all this saga talk, the one movie that can stand on its own, and is still my favorite movie, and one of the greatest of all-time, is the original, please George don't forget about that.
Post
#155032
Topic
My new order for watching the saga 3,4,5,6
Time
I have watched the ROTS DVD a couple of times now, and I have finally figured out the Star Wars saga which I enjoy most for me. It is only episodes III, IV, V, and VI.

TPM & AOTC to me are irrelevant anymore. They are total exposition, and totally inferior to ROTS, and really only need to be watched once just to get an idea of Anakins origins, his love affair, and his state of mind.

ROTS, though I do like it a lot, still has its negatives, the turn & Padme dying & the classic frankenvader line of NOOOOOOOOOOO! keep it from being a classic, but there are many things, mostly tie-ins to the OT, that I like and enjoy.

1. The Duel- not as good as I hoped, but I think expectations were too high on this one

2. Yoda vs. Sidious- I actually liked this alot, and was fun to watch them hurling senate pods at each other.

3. The twins being born, and brought to their respective foster parents was done nice.

4. The scene right before Mace confronts Palpatine where Anakin is in the chamber by himself and the music is playing, no dialogue, finally George directed a scene that comes off great in this trilogy!

5. Order 66, was very good, not great, but pretty sad

6. Anakin, now as Darth Vader, going to Mustafar and taking out the whole Trade Federation.

7. Darth Vaders first breath, after the mask was lowered on him, was again pretty good by Lucas

8. The best part is Kenobi yelling at Anakin as he is burning up, "You were the chosen one!" and "I love you, you were my brother!" Finally, George, some emotion in this trilogy!

Now I still don't see this as one story of Anakin Skywalker, it just doesn't work for me, I can't explain it, but I never liked that Lucas took the saga that way. I still look at it as the story of Luke Skywalker, and that's what originally was all about. I still look at the story of Luke, Han, Leia fighting the evil empire. And all Episode III does for me, is it is simply a backstory, nothing more nothing less, just a few plot points that I have wanted answered and wanted to see on the screen since 1983. I could have read about Episode I & II, because in the end for me personally , Episode III is the only one I really wanted to see.


Now if you are asking me how I would show someone the saga who has never seen it: 4,5,6,1,2,3


Post
#154705
Topic
Your Favorite Star Wars Film
Time
My favorite is definitely the original Star Wars, I can watch that over and over, because it was the only standalone movie, and it definitely the most fun SW movie to watch. You can watch that movie, without caring about the redemption of Darth Vader, or wondering about all the tie-ins of Jango Fett to Boba Fett, Luke being related to Leia, whose father was Vader, and Anakin creating C-3PO, it is what it is, and it my favorite movie of all-time.

Although I do think ESB is a little better than the original, not by much, but it didn't need to set anything up with the characters, so the movies get going from frame one. Thus, every SW movie is inferior after that.
Post
#154699
Topic
Was that really the first Death Star in ROTS?
Time
As it was said earlier on of the other post, Lucas specifically states in the ROTS commentary with a chuckle, that he was aware it took the death star 20 years to build, but he said they had union problems and stuff like that.

I always wish that in ROTS they would have shown 2 death stars being built. So it would make it seem that maybe after 5-10 years, they decided on just finishing one to get in up and working, which would leave it plausable for them after the first was blown up to continue on an already built second one.
Post
#154217
Topic
Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers!
Time
And I'm telling you, YES, they did. You just didn't notice it. I'm with you, man, I didn't notice it at the time, either. It took until way later, when I dug around the library, read some old stuff on microfilm, on the old PINE newsreaders back in 95-96, reading old magazine articles in the library database, and when google bought deja-news and made the history of usenet completely searchable, looked through that too. And what I'm telling you is that this sort of split, this rift, this anger has ALWAYS been there. it seems new to you because you just recently started focusing on that rift. but it's not new. Fans have mocked it. People who DID like the films were angered by later ones. The only substantial thing that's been changed by the Prequels is WHERE that rift runs now.

Before the SE's, the rift occurred between ESB and ROTJ, and to a lesser extent, between Star Wars and ESB. People saying "Star Wars to me is just Star Wars." hell, the first recorded instance of someone saying "A New Hope? Garbage revisionism. Give me Star Wars and throw away the rest" happened around 83 (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment) But there was a definite chunk of fandom that liked Star Wars, and seriously disliked one, if not both of the sequels, and mocked and argued and went rounds and fought just as much and as vehemently as geeks on the net do now.

After the SE's, the rift moved, obviously, to the Originals vs SE's. And then after the Prequels, the rift became PT vs OT. But it's the same rift, and the same sides on both sides, yelling the same stuff they've been yelling at each other since 1983. The Prequels and the SE's didn't do anything but change where that focus was placed.

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Hey, that is a pretty good comparison, and you're right, cause most people I know either loved all 3 OT movies, or didn't like SW, so I guess I knew no one in the middle. The funny thing is, I find myself in the original/ESB crowd now. I see a huge drop in quality from ESB to ROTJ, and it kills me that the trilogy I grew up with to me has only two classics instead of three.

Now in saying that, I can still watch Jedi, for the last hour, especially the Emperor scenes and the space battle still make it great, but not a classic. It is funny cause I think Jedi, gets a little too much flack cause it is compared to SW & ESB, and ROTS gets too much credit cause it gets compared to an inferior TPM & AOTC.

Where does this leave us now, who knows. But you made good points, so I respect your opinion.
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#154208
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Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers!
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Q]Star Wars, before the prequels, was never mocked by the fans as if just stating it made it true. It SEEMED true to you, but it's not. Never has been.

This isn't a Star Wars only phenomena, either. It happens across the board to almost EVERY intellectual property with geek appeal. The notes we're hitting here aren't all that unique, Star Wars' incredible box office and home video sales regardless.

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I agree with you it was mocked by people who didn't like it. Growing up, I had friends who just didn't get Star Wars, didn't see the appeal, and thought it was dorky to be a SW fans. But again, they were people that never liked it in the first place.

Then my friends that liked it, sure we argued what was better ESB or ROTJ, or the ewoks, or Boba Fett dying like a punk. But I am talking about just the fans of SW never mocked each other in a way we do now. The OT generation that hates the PT, disdains the fans who loves them, thinks they like the movies for just effects and believe Jar Jar ruined TPM. On the other hand the younger generation that love the PT, think the OT fans should get over it, and believe the only reason they think the OT is better is cause nostalgia. Now I'm sure there are young fans that like the OT, vice versa, but again I am generalizing.

I will give my own story, I grew up with the OT, love it and do think Jedi is the worst of the OT. Hate the OT SE changes, can't stand TPM, think AOTC is alright, and liked ROTS. But for 10 years now Lucas has burned bridges with me, that he has left me with a bad taste in my mouth toward SW, hell we have a websight called www.originaltrilogy.com! What more irony do you want.

So, I agree you are always going to have disagreements, and definitely the internet does increase levels of love & hatred on both sides, but there are SW fans, just SW fans, who despise the PT, I mean hate it vehemently, but even if they didn't love ROTJ, they never hated it or Lucas like they do now.Text
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#154166
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Return of the Jedi + Revenge of the Sith = one amazing movie!
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Yes, but she could sense Luke and where he was at in ESB. She still can sense things, she was able to sense her mother. But, apparently not her father, only her mother.


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Yes, she could sense Luke because he was calling out to her, and he is a force user. Padme, was not a force user, so how could she have any relationship to her kids in that matter, where apparently they got the midiclorians from Anakin.

I cannot believe I just incoporated midiclorians to prove my point, damn you prequels, you have screwed up the whole SW saga for me, because I make as much sense as some of Lucas' remarks.