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Join date: 25-Jul-2005
Last activity: 22-Apr-2019
Posts: 1,568

Post History

Post: #261980
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261980/action/topic#261980
Time: 18-Dec-2006 7:11 PM

The worse thing Lucas did was make Anakin unlikable or whiny in AOTC, cause that just turned people off to not care about the guy from the first minute of the movie. As much as think TPM is pure shit when it comes to filmaking, Lucas got Anakin right in that movie. I remember being floored to think this kid was actually a good kid and not the typical bad kid on the block who grows up and is in trouble. So right there Lucas totally changed my perception of Anakin, and made him as likeable as Luke in ANH, but only younger.

So what happens in AOTC? He skips ten years of character development and makes him the exact opposite of everything he did with Jake Lloyd in TPM. Now he is a prick, he is a whiner, and better yet, a stalker in someways. He is NOTHING like the Jake Lloyd character, and what happens is you start hating the guy. I equate Hayden in AOTC to Barry Bonds in baseball or Terrel Owens in Football, great players who are the best at what they do, but it is so hard to root for them cause they are the biggest doucebags in the world. And when something bad happens to them you are glad they are getting it.

Anakin should have been just as nice as Jake Lloyd character in TPM until his mother dies, and that is when he should have started going wacky, so there would be an explanation as to why he becomes unstable. He should have been the personality of the trilogy, meaning he should have acted like the average person on the street like you and I cause he wasn't trained as a jedi at a young age. He shouldn't have been Han Solo, but he could have been LIKE him being this care free guy who had alittle spark in his personality, and that doesn't jive well with the staunch jedi.

Anakin outgoing personality should have contrasted with the staunch jedi personality, and that would be the whole tragedy of it all, he never fit in from day one cause he grew up for 10 years as this normal boy. Fuck the whole slave plot, fuck the whole virgin birth, just the fact that this kid was playing with his friends for 10 years like every normal kid would contrast every jedi that was found at birth. Lucas should have showed how annoyed they got at his personality, his daring style, but they would not relieve him as a jedi cause this kid was special, and they would bend the rules for him as much as they could.

I never liked Anakin after TPM, and that goes a long way to caring about his fate when the shit hits the fan. Did Lucas do this on purpose? Did he want him unlikeable because he becomes Darth Vader? Does Lucas even want you to care about this character? I would love if someone could find a quote of him explaining Anakins likeableness and how he feels the audience should react to him. I honestly thought he was a prick, and couldn't give a rats ass about him as he was burning up, for me that is the biggest failure of the PT.

Post: #261931
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261931/action/topic#261931
Time: 18-Dec-2006 2:21 PM

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicYou guys could save yourselves a lot of time by just enjoying what we got, because it's all we're gonna get. All this running around being let down by the newest editions to the saga isn't gonna get you better ones.

Try applying a decent attitude sometime. You may just suprirse yourself.

I don't care about the new editions, just like I wasn't clamoring for anything new in 1985 or 1993. Just give me the OOT in a great presentation, and you may be suprised how happy many people here become.

Post: #261922
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261922/action/topic#261922
Time: 18-Dec-2006 1:15 PM

Originally posted by:Go-Mer-TonicNo, it's really up to you to care. Lucas can't make you. If he could do that then everyone would love Star Wars.

Obviously, if you don't care about Star Wars, then there's really nothing the movies or Lucas can do for you.

You have to enjoy great movies like these or you won't.

You should have said that in your first post on this website, and saved yourself all the wasted time of trying to convince a bunch of people who don't think they are good movies that they are good. As Kenobi says in SW, "Move along."

Post: #261769
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261769/action/topic#261769
Time: 16-Dec-2006 3:35 PM

****Bows**** to Zombie and every post he writes. Sometimes when I read your posts, I start wonder if I wrote it, cause I feel the exact same way.

I to get caught up in the turn too much sometimes, I guess cause it bothers me that Lucas changed it in context, but left the second half of the movie intacted in the other context, and it is so obvious now why going to the temple and killing younglings was from his first 'turn' shoot, and saving Padme was his changed 'turn' shoot.

Zombie, I have to ask you about the PT, cause I was talking to a friend of mine about this. Doesn't the PT seem to be made to be cheesy, yet that is exactly what Lucas was NOT going for? The love story, Grevious' voice, The cackling Emperor in ROTS, Jar Jar mucking it up in TPM, The droid voices comes off as so ridiculous, it makes you think Lucas did that intentionally, but you and I know it wasn't, that is what is sad about the PT.

Post: #261742
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261742/action/topic#261742
Time: 16-Dec-2006 8:26 AM

Tiptup,

Anakin turning evil should have been because of the Clone Wars and getting 'caught' up with all the politics of the galaxy. Anakin should have never choked his wife, nor killed loads of kids 10 seconds after he says, 'what have I done?" It just makes him a sociopath, and those guys are never redeemed. Think of Jeffrey Dahmer and all the other serial killers, they are never redeemed at the end of their life, cause they are so reviled by the public for their awful crimes, and that is the way I feel about Anakin now. I look ROTS and think, The guy is a baby killer and wife abuser, and he gets to smile back at Luke at the end of ROTJ while Luke is not told of ANY of his crimes? What kind of message does that send?

Anakin should have been killing jedi like the Conehead guy, and all the other jedi on the council that we atleast got to see during the PT movies. He should have turned cause he either felt the republic was the bad guys and the jedi were the evil doers, and that should have come from Palpatine continuously praying on his naivity for 3 movies. The whole dream and Padme is just plain stupid and to me and easy out for Lucas not coming up with something very interesting.

Wars bring out the best and worst out of people, and there are many grey areas when looking at a war. Is the Iraq war worth it? Was the war in Vietnam worth it? Should the Americans dropped 2 Atom bombs on Japan in 1945? Lucas could have challenged the viewer to actually consider Anakins stance in the Clone Wars, and maybe think it was wrong, but understanding he may be right.

There would have been nothing more cool then Anakin/Mace going at it in ROTS as part of the Clone Wars as Mace & Co. go after Palpatine, and Anakin finallly takes Palps side by killing Mace and then truly going over to the darkside. Then he begins to track down all jedi through ROTS as he battles them one on one which eventually leads him to Mustafar where he & Kenobi meet in their climatic duel. As Padme hears of Anakins turn to the darkside, she gives Luke to Kenobi to take to Owen, and takes Leia in hiding on Alderran with her friend Bail Organa. That would have matched up perfectly with the OT as now we understand why Vader stood by The Emperors side in ROTJ.

Instead we get a guy who has a bad dream, and then turns in 3 seconds, and kills kids and chokes his wife, and ends up smiling as a young guy as a force ghost in ROTJ as Kenobi is this old crusty man standing there next to him. Sorry George, I just don't buy it.

Post: #261701
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261701/action/topic#261701
Time: 15-Dec-2006 7:33 PM

Tiptup, I actually didn't have a problem with the Anakin character til ROTS, then I started to ?????????????? what the fuck Lucas was trying to say?

In TPM, he is a good kid, and even though Jake Lloyd was pretty bad, it put away all preconceived notions that Vader was a bad kid from the start, and he was actually alot like Luke in ANH.

TPM Anakin = Mission Accomplished.

In AOTC, he is a whiny, and should have been more likeable, and he can't talk to girls, but he is a teenager so I will let it slide. He finds his mother and she dies in front of him, so he goes apeshit on a bunch of tuskens in revenge, and though he did go overboard, revenge is a powerful thing when faced with a loss of a loved one.

AOTC Anakin = I am still on board

In ROTS, he kills a bunch of Jedi kids as his FIRST act as Palpatines pupil, even after he says, "What have I done?" He then goes on to choke his wife, and has to take some credit in her death, even though that is not the reason she died because technically lost the will to live.

ROTS Anakin = You lost me

When I see Anakin as a force ghost in ROTJ now, whether it be Shaw or Hayden, and I think about it in the context 1-6, I don't think he should be there for what he did. I understand he redeemed himself by saving his son and killing the sith, and his last scene should have been with Luke as he dies with his mask off. By never seeing Anakin after that it says this moral message after 6 movies, "Good people do bad things, good people can do awful things too, and in the end, even if you do good at the end of your life, it still doesn't erase the horrors you put on people for many years." By Anakin not being a force ghost, and only Kenobi & Yoda staring back at Luke, it says that Anakin was able to see his son as the good man he was, but he will pay a price for his horrors as he can never become a force ghost.

Post: #261428
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261428/action/topic#261428
Time: 13-Dec-2006 9:29 PM

Originally posted by: Anchorhead

I'm in the minority for sure, but I much prefer Star Wars over Empire because of the unknown feeling that is so palpable throughout. Everything is unknown in Star Wars - where they're going, how they're going to get there, who this Vader person is, what the princess will be like, whether or not they can count on each other, how they're going to survive, etc. The viewer doesn't know what's going to happen and neither do the main characters.
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Don't be swayed by the internet popularity of ESB and think it is everyones favorite. I love ESB just as much as everyone here, but my favorite will always be SW.

SW will always be the most popular among MASS movie going fans, and the simple fact is that they just don't take time to post on SW websites when they only love one movie. I will always go to the box office grosses of the SE in 1997:

SW - 136 million
ESB - 67 million
ROTJ - 45 million

There is a reason that SW made more money then ESB/ROTJ combined, the masses always loved it, and ESB/ROTJ only appealed to diehard SW fans. Now those diehard SW fans are a HUGE fanbase in itself, but compared to the fanbase that loves the original, it doesn't even come close. Just remember, by 1997, ESB was already popping up as the classic of the series by many SW fans, or better yet by SciFi fans as the greatest scifi movie ever, and if that were so true, why would it gross half of SW in 1997?

This site is populated of mostly OOT fans, TFN is populated of mostly SE/PT fans, and there really isn't a site that just represents SW 1977 fans, and that is why it always seems that the original SW doesn't get the credit it deserves as probably one of the greatest films ever. IMO.

Post: #261283
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/261283/action/topic#261283
Time: 12-Dec-2006 10:48 PM

The whole rule of 2 totally goes against everything set up in ESB & ROTJ. If there was a rule of 2 as Yoda talks about in TPM, and presumably EVERY Jedi is told this after QuiGon is killed, than it contradicts the OT.

Even though in the OT Vader and Emperor are both plotting against each other to turn Luke to their side and kill and then turn on the other, if there is a rule of two, it shouldn 't have even been talked about?

Think about it, if there is a rule of 2 established by the Sith, then why would The Emperor and Vader talk in ESB about turning Luke to their side, even though they are both lying to each other? If there is a rule of two, and they supposedly are saying here is the third wheel to help us rule the galaxy, then it exposes that one of them has to go, and instead of plotting like The Emperor and Vader do in ROTJ, it is talked about in ESB?

Before the PT there was no rule of 2 crap, so even though they The Emperor and Vader are plotting against each other in ESB & ROTJ, it is believable that they both feel the other is genuine since there is no limit on the amount of sith at once. But if there are only 2 siths allowed at once, then the conversation in ESB now make NO sense, because they are both 'showing their cards' before their motives are finally shown at the end of ROTJ.

Another plot hole that the PT created.

Post: #260936
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260936/action/topic#260936
Time: 10-Dec-2006 4:33 PM

Originally posted by: zombie84

If you look at American Graffiti and Attack of the Clones you would never know that they were written and directed by the same man--the difference is that Lucas' lack of direction was perfectly suited for the contemporary comedy-drama but not at all for a melodramatic space tragedy.

Not to defend Lucas on his directing, but I think the biggest problem with the PT, and mainly AOTC, is that Lucas tried to have this serious greek tragedy in space and still try to make it a 2 hour fun SW movie that was successful like the OT movies were.

The OT movies were perfect for Lucas's style and this quote say it all:

"In the kind of movies I make, I tend to stress the plot side of things. The nature of the characters are pivotal to the way they react to things. Usually the characters are archetypes to such a degree that it's not necessary to go into a lot of detail because I am not dealing with deep psychological problems. My films are storytelling movies, not character movies. So with that in mind, I try to get to the cleanest, to the most simple way of portraying things."
-George Lucas, The Annotated Screenplay, pg 168.

That quote goes against every thing he tried to do with the PT movies as that was clearly the character study of Anakin Skywalker and how he becomes bad.

Hey George, you said it, I didn't.

Post: #260703
Topic: MTV Interview and New Favorite Movie
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260703/action/topic#260703
Time: 7-Dec-2006 8:04 PM

Here is my take if you want to cleanse yourself of Lucas's B.S. Never ever stop loving the Original SW, but toss aside everything else, including ESB & ROTJ. Now many fans here will give me crap for this theory, but here goes:

If you just love the Original SW, you don't have to think about anything about the 'saga' per say, meaning all the crap Lucas ruined with the PT, and in some ways with ROTJ, is all gone now. SW '77 is a 2 hour movie with a beginning, a middle, and a true ending, and nothing else happens after it. Princess Leia, Luke, and Darth Vader are not related, meaning the Skywalker family drama has nothing to do with anything pertaining to the movie.

By still loving The Original SW, you don't have to buy any boxset anymore, on possibly wasting your money on movies you do and don't like, in time the Original SW will pop up for sale on its own, and you buy it just like you would buy Field of Dreams or The Untouchables as they standalone itself.

I hate what Lucas has done to SW, and the fact that you have the SE, OOT, PT, and all the other bullshit that has made this series mediocre, you can always fall back on that movie in 1977, and watch it in THAT context, and that movie will always be #1 in my book.

Post: #260564
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260564/action/topic#260564
Time: 6-Dec-2006 9:39 PM

Originally posted by: zombie84

Lucas planned on only directing TPM but then he just enjoyed working on it. He decided to direct the other two even before TPM was released, so its not an ego thing--he kept talking about how he wanted to return to directing and then he finally did because he realised how much fun it was now that he had no financial or technological pressure on him.

Zombie, with all due respect, Lucas has admitted to hating writing and directing even during the PT shoots. I think that is his cover to do Episode II & III that he enjoyed TPM so much, and IMO, I don't buy it one second.

I really think Lucas saw the reaction to TPM, and there was no way someone was going to do a better job with Episode II & III and all Lucas was left with was a 2 hour Jar Jar fest. If you watch the PT documentaries, the only movie he did have fun with was TPM, and I honestly believe after that, he was going through the motions.

Just watch TPM documentary, it is the one great thing of the PT. It documents from the beginning right up to the premiere, and gives really good insight. It shows the first screening with McCallum, Burtt, and Co. and just watch their reactions right after TPM, they were in shock! McCallum is stonefaced, and Lucas starts running his hand through his hair and says, "I may have gone too far on this one."

AOTC & ROTS documentaries don't give any of that type of inside look on the process, all they are is to showcase Speical Effects. I think Lucas saw what fans thought of TPM, and he has been trying to get back to respectability ever since, and witness his comment on Stephen Colbert show last month:

Colbert: George, do you own all of the SW movies on DVD?

Lucas: Um, I think so, well maybe not TPM!

Now I think that was pretty funny at Lucas poking fun at himself, but that joke signifies what movie SW fans laugh at the most, well next to AOTC.

Post: #260543
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260543/action/topic#260543
Time: 6-Dec-2006 7:40 PM

Originally posted by:Fang ZeiAccording to Empire of Dreams, Lucas had no choice but to get a non-American director for Return of the Jedi due to his departure from the Director's Guild of America. They had excessively fined him for The Empire Strikes Back's absence of any opening credits, and because he didn't want Irvin Kershner paying those DGA fines himself, he covered for him. He knew it would only happen again if he got an American to make ROTJ, and was so impressed by "Eye of the Needle" that he asked Marquand to direct.

Now that I think about it, Lucas's departure from the DGA might have a lot to do with why he decided to direct the prequels himself.

I say to anyone who watches the EOD Documentary on the '04 DVD, watch out cause there is alot of revisionism. I NEVER heard of Spielberg once ever possibly directing ROTJ, and I was shocked when I heard that. Now is it true, I don't know.

But Spielberg did ask Lucas to direct the PT movies, and Lucas said and I quote, "No, Star Wars is my baby." I remember reading that back in 1998 before the PT started, and that is why I question whether this Spielberg directing ROTJ is just a new myth of the revisionism by Lucas yet again.

Lucas said before the PT he was going to direct Episode I, and then let someone else direct Episode II & III, and well the rest is history. Now Lucas has a right to direct his movies, but don't deny ever saying it, and that is what he does. I think he took so much crap from his fans with TPM and Jar Jar, he felt he had to redeem himself with Episode II, and when the same fans said this is just as crappy, there was no way he was going to pass on Episode III when that was the real red meat of the story. I think Lucas ego got in the way of letting someone else step in and direct and also write the screenplay, while he developed the story.

Post: #260331
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260331/action/topic#260331
Time: 5-Dec-2006 9:04 PM

Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenCheck the temperature in Hell, folks ... 'cause I am disagreeing with CO for the first time.
I don't believe future fans will necessarily buy into George's numbering scheme. I think the fame of the films will be such that the numbering scheme will be recognized as an artificial construct and, even if the real first movie is remembered as "A New Hope" (arrrrrgghghgh!!!!), it will be widely known that it was the first movie of the 6 Star Wars films.
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I have to disagree with ya, cause I am already seeing it with my nephews, as they see it as one saga now rather then the way we see it.

The problem is that in one sense they are seeing Georges vision of 6 episodes of Darth Vaders story, and what has happened is that they just aren't huge SW fans cause the overall quality is mediocre now.

For any OOT fans here, lets just say ESB was an alright sequel, more in the vein of ROTJ, would any of us here be diehard OT fans? No, we would SW '77 fans, which would probably be one of our favorites of all-time, and just say the sequels are OK, but I just can't watch 2 OK films over and over.

I will contend the only reason a majority of us still watch ROTJ is not for its quality, but cause it gives us closure on the OT. I love SW more then anything in the world, and I love ESB it is such a great sequel, but ROTJ is alright, but it will always hang on with the two classics, and never leave that OT collection, cause it wouldn't be complete without it.

Now think of a 1-6 fan, who has a couple of mediocre movies. My nephew sees it as one saga, sees it as Anakins story, just like Lucas wants, but he has moved on from SW. He thought ANH, ESB, and suprisingly ROTS were the 3 best, and the others were OK. So that leaves him with 3 average movies, and the overall story now of seeing all 6 movies together, rather then falling in love with 1 SW movie like us and wanting more, has left him..........without falling in love with ANY SW movie, cause he saw them as one entity. Now compare that to myself where SW '77 is my favorite movie of all-time, and no matter how much Lucas fucked up the movies after 1977, that movie will always be #1.

Mr. Lucas, you wanted fans to see it 1-6, I know from my nephew you got your wish. The problem now is that he has moved on to Pirates of the Caribbean II, and SW was just a cool thing in 2005. Lucas may have to re-read the old saying, "Keep wishing for something, and you just may get it." I think I said that right?

Post: #260315
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260315/action/topic#260315
Time: 5-Dec-2006 7:05 PM

Originally posted by: JediRandy

Are you preserving history for the “youth of tomorrow” or are you preserving your own youth?

This idea that the PT/SE/Holiday Special is going to distort and ruin the impact the original SW made on movie history is a gross overreaction. The original movies have stood for 30 years now and they’ll stand long after people are done complaining about Jake Lloyd.

Godfather 3 didn’t ruin the Godfather just like Jaws 3D didn’t ruin Jaws. ANH has and will “stand the test of time”… film students will still read about the impact of the flicks 100 years from now even with Jar Jar Binks. (They might even read film books that site the beloved SW and evil Luca$ as creating the blockbuster that killed small films)

(Now go ahead and start in on how the OOT isn’t available in High-Def therefore the “children” will like The Phantom Menace more than Empire.)

I agree that Godfather 3 didn't ruin Godfather, and Rocky 6 won't ruin Rocky, but the difference is they are FIRST movie always watched by a new fan, so there is a frame of reference to how the story starts.

SW '77 as the first episode of the OT is WAYYY different in context then as seen as Part 4 of a 6 part saga AFTER watching the PT.

Til the PT, ANH was always watched first by every new fan, so they weren't jadded by a different context of the story, the totally different special effects, the totally different CG locations, etc.

ANH will never be seen by any new fan 1-6 of just that great scifi movie that it was in 1977 and as first part of the OT til 1999. Any new fan who saw ANH first didn't know what the grander story was after watching the other movies, so they just watched it as this space adventure of good vs evil, that is all the movie really is, it is very basic in its themes, and that is its greatest strength.

When watching it as part 4 after the PT, you are expecting the continuation of Anakins story, the continuation of the jedi vs sith that was so prominent in the PT, you are wondering where the hell The Emperor and Yoda are, and you are probably wondering why the lightsaber battle is so slow compared the over-indulged PT lightsaber duels.

It is not the same movie after watching the PT, cause all of the stuff I named in the paragraph above didn't exist when the movie was made, so the frame of reference wasn't there. The Emperor was only named in the movie, so the viewer had no idea that he is the MAIN badguy in the saga. Yoda wasn't invented yet, and only invented for ESB cause Lucas killed off Kenobi. Kenobi vs Vader duel is slower because it was more a plot point, and it is the only movie of the 6 that doesn't feature a lightsaber duel at the END of the movie. And most of all, it wasn't about Anakins story in 1977 nor 1983 either, and that is the biggest change of reference. This viewer will sit there and want to know more about this Vader guy who was so fleshed out for three movies before it, and he is only in it for a measley 12 minutes.

Jedirandy, I strongly disagree with ya about ANH standing the test of time, because there is a whole generation of new SW fans who will watch it in a totally different context then the previous generation, and sadly, they will be watching it in the wrong context. No other original movie has ever gone from being seen first to fourth in a movie series, so everyone of your examples doesn't work.

Post: #259874
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/259874/action/topic#259874
Time: 3-Dec-2006 7:46 AM

I found this post on TFn, and it justifies what has happened to the saga when watching the PT first, and totally justifies my points of now someone thinking the OT is average, including our beloved Star Wars from 1977. Read on and make your own assessments of how new fans 1-6 will view it:

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Author Topic: Has anyone here ever seen the PT before the OT?
dvdcdr
Registered: Aug '06

Date Posted: 11/27 5:53pm Subject: Has anyone here ever seen the PT before the OT?
Hmm, I may be the only one.

But the point I'm trying to make is, I think the PT is often bashed because it is not nessecarily worse than the OT but different. They honestly are two completely different types of movies, both good in their own respect. However, the first Star Wars movie you see will stick in your head forever. you'll always be preprogrammed to think of star wars as that movie, or at least the trilogy it is part of.

A few years back, with talks of ROTS, everyone kept telling me I had to watch the Star Wars movies. When I kept telling them I didn't know which one to get, they'd say ANH. Confused, I went and rented Phantom Menace. And despite everyone saying how horrible Phatom Menace is, I actually kinda liked it. It wasn't my favorite movie ever, but it was my first taste of Star Wars and I found GL's style of moviemaking very appealing. I could've stopped watching thet SW films right there, but I decided to continue because I happened to like TPM.

I moved on to AOTC, which I liked even more. I thought it a very good film, with good special effects, music, and story. I also did not know about Palpatine becoming emporor or anything at the time, so the story was very perplexing to me.

Then came ROTS! I LOVED IT!!!!!! It's one of my favorite movies of all time! I was going nuts when I saw that movie!!!!!!!! And throughout the whole time, everyone was telling me I was gonna like the OT even better.

So, I eventually watch ANH, and, well, uh...I did not like it at all. I didn't like the unepic lightsaber battle, i didn't like the corniness, i didn't like the plot at all (it really didn't have the right flow to it, with a lot of plot twists and everything. half the movie was just them running around on the death star, and that bored me), i ddidnt like the little catchphrases like nerfherder or anything, and more than anything i did not like the random shooting scenes such as on the beginning with the tantiv IV. even johnny william's music didn't seem as good. now i know it was a different era of filmmaking, and the movie must be good because so many people love it, but it just wasn't what i had in mind. because when i htought of star wars at the time, it was the pt.

i forced myself to watch ESB, which was a lot better, but still not prefered over the pt.

and then ROTJ, not as good as ESB, but better than ANH. It was just an ehhhh movie

Now I'm not here to bash the OT, because it can't be bad or else it wouldn't be so popular. All's I'm saying though is it kind of depends what you watch first.

Just as all the OT fans watching the PT missed Han Solo, the banter, vader, the space battles, ect.

I missed the effects, the epic feel, the music, the plot twists, the drama, the superior use of the force and the lightsaber, and dare i say, it jar jar. no, i wont take it that far.

Post: #259484
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/259484/action/topic#259484
Time: 30-Nov-2006 10:40 PM

Originally posted by: BeeJay

That combining of the PT and OOT is very personal and ultimately optional. Regardless of what George Lucas says, those two trilogies are very much different entities of film. One trilogy was from 1977-1983, and the other was 1999-2005. Anyone who says the technology/CGI/filmaking is similar enough to make a believable combination of the two is simply wrong. We have to look at the stories themselves.... some of us want Star Wars to be about Darth Vader so we discuss this stuff to help along the PT, while others want Star Wars to be about Luke Skywalker and no one else. The latter are mainly the people like you. Both viewpoints are equally valid.

Beejay, this is long if your interested:

See this is where Lucas lost me, once I realized that he wasn't writing a backstory per say, more of a new linear story that flows right into the next trilogy and now has a whole new meaning.

I wasn't a huge PT basher before ROTS. I thought TPM was average and AOTC was alittle better, but to see more SW on the big screen was kinda cool.

Then in 2004 when the DVD's came out, all of the sudden Lucas started to really focus on Vader alittle too much, and not just with the PT, but he started saying the OT was about his story too. That is where I kinda soured on the PT and the 1-6 saga overall, cause you just can't watch the OT movies in the context of the continuation of Darth Vaders story, cause as I said, the redemption angle was always a minor story that gave the OOT more depth, and that was cool to me.

Then Lucas started tinkering not only with SPX, but with scenes, and I anticipate more to come. He puts in Hayden in ROTJ, he puts in McDiarmid in ESB and changes his dialogue in the process. All of a sudden this backstory I anticipated and wanted for many years wasnt a backstory, it is a rewriting of the whole story in a new context.

Before ROTS, I always thought of the PT as a seperate story that explained the events of the OT, and that is what a backstory does. It is not supposed to be watched before, it is supposed to be watched after to answer those questions from the main story, not totally change the context of the OT!

So all these years I am watching the OOT as Lukes story, and now I am suppose to watch 1-6 and when I get to 4-6, it is the continuation of Darth Vaders tragedy? I am sorry, but that just doesn't work for me, and that is when I kinda turned on the PT, not for the quality issues we always debate via Jar Jar, Midiclorians, and losing the will to live, but the fact of the matter now that the saga 1-6 is WAY different in context now.

Just think of Han Solo in the story 1-6, he is almost irrelevant compared to watching the OOT. The PT is solely about Jedi vs Sith, and sets up the next trilogy for Vader/Emperor vs Luke/Kenobi/Yoda and it all plays out big time in the final half hour of ROTJ, cause that is the new context to the PT story.

Anyone watching it 1-6 now, will they care about Han Solo cracking jokes for 3 movies? Will they give a hoot about Leia/Han falling in love? Will they even care about the rescue of Solo in ROTJ? No, they are going to want to see the main players from the PT, now including Luke, and continue THAT story, cause it was setup so much in the PT. I guarantee you will see new fans who see it 1-6 complain about ANH as this story that is missing Yoda & The Emperor, and not enough Vader.

My whole point is the story 1-6 is not a linear story, cause it has essentially created two different fanbases: Luke, Leia, and Han fans, and Vader story fans. And in the context of the saga, they are TOTALLY different stories. The fact that you can watch the OOT and Darth Vader is just an antagonist whose redemption is a nice subplot in ROTJ compared to the 1-6 story of the full character arc of Anakin Skywalker from little kid to his death. The problem with that is there are huge amounts of screentime that are dedicated to the 3 heroes from the OOT that I think many will see as filler when watching it 1-6 now.

If Lucas just wrote a true backstory, something that shouldn't be watched linearly, then I would still be a Saga fan, cause I could watch the OOT for that story, and the PT for a different story, which does tie to the other story, but it is not a continuous overall story, it is more of a focused substory dealing with why Anakin acted the way he did in ROTJ. That is essentially what the PT is about, it really answers why he did what he did in ROTJ. Now in that respect, that is an interesting sub story to the real story of our 3 heroes beating the Empire, but taken in context now watching it 1-6, Leia/Han are just bit players now.

Post: #259188
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/259188/action/topic#259188
Time: 29-Nov-2006 7:51 PM

Originally posted by: BeeJay

If we just view IV without context of the other films, and as stand-alone film, then the story is over at that, and it's no longer the tragedy of Darth Vader, but becomes the heroics of the unlikely trio we find in Luke, Leia, and Han. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

But if we are to expand beyond that, we need more characters and arcs than just with those three people. Beyond IV, we need a deeper storyline, or the heroics of the trio quickly get worn-out, milked for all they are worth, and become meaningless. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Beejay, you make good points, but I think you misunderstood my statement towards Vaders revelation. In the context of the OOT of SW, ESB, ROTJ, I love 'I am your father.' In context of the OOT, I enjoy the redemption of Vader in ROTJ, as it gives the OOT much depth that few movie sagas have. The bottom line is in the context of the OOT, Darth Vader is NEVER the main character, even when the movie focuses on Luke & Vader in the final hour of ROTJ, it was always about Luke.

What I meant by Lucas going Vader crazy was with the PT, and how he literally made 3 movies to answer why Darth Vader reacted the way he did in the last hour of ROTJ. My point is there is SO much story in the PT that just didn't have to be about Anakin Skywalker, that could have been a plot point.

I agree with you on the characters, the drama of any movie is through the characters, but Lucas put all his eggs in Darth Vaders story in the PT, and now in the saga 1-6, that if you don't LOVE it, it won't be as powerful as the OOT story of just Luke, Leia, and Han.

The PT had so many possibilties storywise that Lucas just touched on. I would have loved for TPM to be about Anakin/Kenobi and essentially that movie tells a story of 2 hours of their friendship set to the backdrop of how Palpatine is planning to become Chancellor. Roughly the same plot as TPM in 1999, yet there is no QuiGon, and there is a 20 year old Anakin is best friends with Kenobi, and IT IS SHOWN ON SCREEN!!!!!! That would have made the duel so much more tragic in ROTS.

There is so much more story about the Clone Wars, that got shifted to a cartoon. There is another subplot in the deleted scenes with Padme and the birth of the rebellion. If you don't read EU, you wont know any of the Jedi that died in Order 66, so that whole scene lacks the drama.

My point is Lucas did not have to make the PT about Anakin, and it is about Anakin, as Lucas said in an old interview, "This trilogy is a character study of how a person goes bad." When marrying the trilogies now, it is so jarring cause that is not what the OT was about. The one great thing about the SW universe is there is always a story to tell, it isn't like other movies series where there just isn't much story beyond the main story, but Lucas is living and dying with the story of Darth Vader, and that is why there is this huge division now of fans.

Post: #258942
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258942/action/topic#258942
Time: 28-Nov-2006 7:45 PM

Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenGuess I'll have to watch Empire again and pin down why I think she's too different. (Are those DVD's still ten dollars anywhere?)

I get what CO says about couples who like each other and try so hard not to show it that it comes off oppositely. But those couples are usually in junior high school. I've seen plenty of movies where adults are acting out the same way, but don't behave like teenagers.

In fact, I think a whole lot of the dialogue in Empire was aimed at kids particularly, instead of the "whole family" approach that Star Wars took.

To each his own. I will certainly grant that The Empire Strikes Back delved deeper into the personalities of the lead characters. But with the exception of Han Solo, I didn't like what I saw in the depths.

ObiJeewhyen, here is where ESB ruins the saga, "I am your father!" Now I am not as high on this line as most of my SW friends, who think this is the pinnacle moment of the OT for them. For me, it is still Luke blowing up the death star in SW, that is the cream of the crop of the any movie I have ever seen.

What 'I am your father' did to the rest of the SW movies is make Lucas think that EVERY fan loves Darth Vader and wants to know everthing about him. WRONG!!!!! I love Darth Vader as a bad guy, or an antagonist in the OT, but I don't like him as the star of the saga now, that is one of the reasons why I will never be a saga fan.

Lucas saw how everyone reacted at that one line in ESB, and I personally think he went Vader crazy after that. He pigeoned holed the saga to focus so much on Darth Vader, he has cut out so many would be fans like me who fell in love with the rebellion beating the empire through my heroes Luke, Leia, and Han.

By Lucas constantly saying it is Darth Vader story now 1-6, or the tragedy of Darth Vader, he has essentially made SW into a fanbase 1-6 that loves Darth Vader and his story, and that is it, cause everything in the PT took a backseat to Anankins story. And now if you look at the saga overall 1-6, the PT was really explains the last hour of ROTJ and why Anakin did what he did to save his son and kill the Emperor. The problem is there is a huge story that we all fell in love with that had to do with Luke, Han, and Leia that is just a footnote now.

Just think of some newcomer watching it 1-6 in order. You get 3 movies about Jedi vs Sith, and follow Anakin for 3 movies as he becomes evil. By Episode IV, would you really care about these three joksters on the deathstar hamming it up? Will you really care about Han/Leia in the millenium falcon falling in love for half the movie in ESB? Would you really care about a rescue for the first 40 minutes on Han Solo by his friends in ROTJ?

No that viewer will want more Yoda, more Emperor, and definitely more Vader/Luke scenes like the ones in the last hour of ROTJ? Lucas has essentially discarded what made the OT great to all of us for Darth Vader character arc, and that is what it is now, a character arc of Darth Vader as a little kid to his death at the end of ROTJ. No character gets a full arc like that in SW. What made me fall in love with SW was Luke and his battle to blow up the death star in the original SW, now that is part 4 of a movie that really doesn't have that much Vader in it.

Post: #258886
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258886/action/topic#258886
Time: 28-Nov-2006 5:15 PM

Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenBut her Star Wars lines were all comedy, and her Empire lines were not. She may have been ungrateful for the rescue, but the complaining lines were jokes ... and they got laughs.

That's what I meant by the tonedeafness of the writers. 40's wiseguy banter may be nasty, but it's very funny. The same nastiness without the talent of comedic writing is just ... well, just nasty.

.

See the clever thing about how Leia is in the first hour of ESB, is the reason she is bitchy is that she is in love with Han as the movies begins. But she either doesn't want to admit it, or doesn't want to give in to loving this scoundrel, cause that would go against her 'princess' upbringing.

She does the classic thing when you really like someone of the opposite sex and don't want to admit, you try to go out of your way to make the person think you don't like them. But even though Han is not a scolar like many of the Jedi, he is street smart and plays her like a fiddle the whole movie. He knows as soon as he tries to leave Hoth and she follows him at the starting, she loves him, so he leads her right down the road of telling him first. The whole movie is just a tease between the two and when she finally says she loves him what does he say? As Kevin Smith said in an interview once on why he loves ESB: "Like a pimp, he says, "I know."

ESB had to have the characters much different then SW because this was delving into how they feel about each other, rather then how to beat the Empire. SW is just about the big 3 getting kinda stuck with each other in the movie and beating the empire, and really don't have time to assess their personal relationships with anyone. ESB is really about the characters, not the story, and how they are reacting to the situation. ESB delves into each character and shows their true nature.

I think one compliments the other to perfection, and if Lucas could have continued this trend in ROTJ, it would be one awesome trilogy. ROTJ took all that was set up, with the characters, and threw them away on one plot point: Vaders redemption. You could see that is the only plot point Lucas cared about, cause that is the only great part of the movie, the rest of the movie is just the actors, the director, and our creator going through the motions and not trying to make a great movie, but the first time in SW-ville, settling for something just good enough.

Post: #258842
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258842/action/topic#258842
Time: 28-Nov-2006 3:35 PM

Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle

Therein, I feel, lies ESB's greatest asset, in watching Princess Leia and Han Solo fall in love, despite themselves.

Isn't it sad that we all find the ESB love story totally believable when it really is just a side story to the real story of Vader/Luke encounter on Cloud City, yet Lucas spends a whole frickin movie with Padme/Anakin falling in love in countless scenes and none of us believe it, or just can't bear to watch it anymore!

Post: #258834
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258834/action/topic#258834
Time: 28-Nov-2006 3:08 PM

Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenWe'll have to agree to disagree.

C3PO was a fussy pessimist in Star Wars, and a whining, complaining, annoying pest in Empire.

Leia (prounounded Lee-ah) was a feisty firebrand in Star Wars - while Leia (pronounded Lay-eh) was, well, a whining, complaining, PMSing shrew through most of Empire.

The changes were primarily in the dialogue, and were - I believe - due to the tonedeafness of the screenwriters who mistook feistyness for obnoxiousness and fussiness for annoyingness.

.

Obijeewhyen, I will always respect that you are a SW '77 fan at heart, but I will have to disagree with you on this one. I think the acting in ESB between the big three: Leia, Luke, and Han are better then SW, and that is cause of Kersh. Now in saying all of this, SW'77 is still my favorite movie of all-time, but the performances in ESB are overall better.

Just watch the scene where the millenium falcon goes into the asteroid field, and watch Han & Leia bickering back and forth, that is great acting and great chemistry for a SW film. And just think of them doing all of this in front of screen with NOTHING!!! Nothing but what Kersh is telling them about this asteroid field, and watch as they are so believable as to the trouble they are in. That is what a great director does, get performances out of the actors.

SW '77 has great acting, but I feel it comes from the older actors: Alec Guinness, Peter Cushing, and Phil Brown. All of them are seasoned actors, and Lucas couldn't put his bad directing stamp on them. Luke, Leia, and Han don't give great performances in SW '77, but their chemistry is unmatched for any film I have ever seen, and their humor is top notch too. Leia yelling at Han, Han being a pompous ass, Luke being the good guy, that is all they needed to do in the first SW movie, just play their part, and if you look at it that way, that is the reason the movie is a classic, it didn't need great performances like ESB did, cause the movie wasn't as intimate and the characters weren't as fleshed out.

As for Han & Leia in ROTJ, Blaaaahhhh! Can you say collecting a paycheck.

Post: #258768
Topic: See, George, This is how it's done ...
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258768/action/topic#258768
Time: 28-Nov-2006 6:16 AM

If the same thing happened with a SW boxset, Lucas defenders would say, "You are getting what you deserve." or "Stop whining, cause you guys will never be satisfied with anything Lucas puts out, even if it has flaws."

I am suprised the defective disks in the Superman Boxset aren't just renamed, "Bonus Material."

Post: #258531
Topic: Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258531/action/topic#258531
Time: 26-Nov-2006 5:35 PM

Anamorphic and fully restored = Yes

The one good thing anymore is that there is no grey area to a SW release in the future, either it is done right or not. Lucas was able to get away with the 2006 release cause many fans wanted the OOT in any quality on DVD, just as Lucas was able to get away with the SE only in 2004 cause many fans just wanted the OT on DVD.

I will gladly buy the OOT fully restored, and then walk away from SW forever and let the future SW fans debate about midiclorians and jar jar and why Anakin turned.

Post: #258485
Topic: Has technology accelerated that much?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258485/action/topic#258485
Time: 26-Nov-2006 8:06 AM

I don't think it is about being spoiled, it just comes down to once you see a better quality of something, for many people they can't go back.

If VHS still existed, and there was no laserdisk or DVD, we would still be in VHS mode of how great the quality is, and wouldn't have a frame of reference of how great DVD quality is. Just think of how when we got a DVD player you could finally skip to any scene in the movie, how you didn't have to rewind the movie, how you didn't have to worry about the tape breaking? Now that is all normal, so now we naturally want better quality as we eventually delved into HD-DVD as they eventually becomes mainstream.

Sometimes I yearn for the good old days of VHS when I didn't know what widescreen was, and I just kinda watched the movie without worrying about the quality, cause that was the extent of quality back then. Then I watch an Anamorphic movie on DVD on my HD-TV and marvel at the quality, so I guess I am one of those fans who just can't go back.

Post: #258347
Topic: Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258347/action/topic#258347
Time: 25-Nov-2006 6:38 AM

I agree 100%! That whole sequence defined SW and its greatness over anything from this genre. Whenever someone argues with me that SW is made for children, I tell them to watch all of the Dagobah scenes and tell me if those are made for children?

Just to add something to this post, don't forget about the cave. The cave is such a great part of the movie because it is never explained to the viewer, it lets the viewer come to its own conclusion. Only Yoda says, "Remember your failure at the cave." If this were the PT movies, Yoda would have went into this long explanation on why Luke failed just so the viewer would get it, but back then, SW was not spoonfed to the viewer through the dialogue like it was in the PT.