CO

DarkFather said:

You're trying to set a meaningless standard for the analogy. Point is, CO, if a franchise had a film series that stopped, and then another film series or continuation comes years later, it will cause divisions in the fanbase. If the new is "good", then the old must be "bad" to many. It's like a fashion craze

 DF, that is exactly the Godfather Trilogy.  GFI & GFII were made in 72 and 74, and then GFIII was made 16 years later in 1990, the same exact time between ROTJ and TPM.

I have yet to come across anyone who says that GFI is slow and boring and GFIII is a great movie, and wipes up the rest.  And trust me I came from the GFIII generation and the first two movies were made when I was 'very young' as Princess Leia said in ROTJ:)  The bottom line is you ask my generation of GF fans and you ask the generation before us and they will always debate which is better GFI or GFII?  But you never hear GFIII in that debate.  Yet, on TFN, you have people ranking TPM over ANH!

DarkFather said:

CO, you've been talking about that sort of thing for a long time. You're like a veteran thinking he's still in Nam. That sort of extremist movement is a predictable phase in any franchise, man. It's died down for the most part.

Did you ever follow the Batman franchise? There was a phase where Nolan was THE man (some even professing him as God, in ways I'm not sure were meant to be humorous), and Burton was THE failure who was never "faithful to the comics."

Ask DocLathropBrown.

Anyway, I agree it's disgusting when old fans betray the classics, but like I said, it's a predictable phase of any large franchise.

 Here is the difference between Batman & Star Wars, Star Wars movies were all created by George Lucas, Batman had 2 movies by Burton, 2 movies by Schumacher, and 2 movies by Nolan, so it would be obvious that certain fans like a certain style by each. 

You have to compare the series like Godfather and Lethal Weapon, where the same person did all their movies, (Coppola and Donnor).

I just know that when I was in highschool we ALL thought the same about the Star Wars Trilogy:  Star Wars & Empire were the best, and Jedi was 3rd.  And I didn't have one friend saying Jedi was the best, the only debate was that Empire may be better the Star Wars, or vice versa.

You go on TFN, and you have people ranking TPM or AOTC over Star Wars???  Just goto the Saga thread and see peoples rankings, you have to shake your head at these people. 

It really goes to show how the audience has changed over 20 years, and how movie-goers today are so smitten with action and CGI, because that is clearly why they put ANH so low on their list. 

DarkFather said:

I don't think it's anything about the franchise itself that attracts lunatics necessarily, but the sheer size of the fanbase. A fanbase this big is bound to have its "belong in an asylum" division.

I understand what youre saying, but most movie series people are pretty mainstream on their views.

For instance, when was the last time you heard a person say, "The Godfather III is so much better the Godfather I!"  Or Rocky V is better then Rocky I!"  or 'Jaws The Revenge is SO much better then Jaws!" But you will hear on TFN thread titles like, "Is ANH...meh?"  And you will also have that same fanbase over there who has utter contempt for the OOT versions, even though they were the ones that propelled SW to where it is today!   

I read one thread and it confirmed my beliefs.  I clicked to the 'Would you buy the O-OT on DVD' Thread, and I think this site is the twin sister of TFN.  I always thought TFN was an only child, but Yoda was right, "No, there is another!" 

Their responses to the OOT on DVD ranged from, "I dont know if I'd buy it, those versions Lucas was not able to tell his story, and the SE are alot better."

Yeah, ESB fucking sucks because you never see Vader leave his shuttle on Cloud City!  or ROTJ sucked because Lucas could never record 'Jedi Rocks!' 

Why are there so many lunatic fans who like SW?

I think there is two issues, one that Hayden had no control of, and one that he had total control of.

1.  The portrayal of Anakin Skywalker?  This one Lucas is responsible for, so I give him a 2.

The whole way Lucas made Anakin Skywalker was all wrong from the start.  He should have been totally likeable in Episode II, not some whining little teenager.   He should have been the golden boy, the hotshot, the cool guy everyone aspires to be, and Lucas made him the opposite.  If he was 'The Golden Boy' from the start, then his fall to the darkside would have been more tragic, cause everyone would have felt for the character.  It would have made a great father/son contrast.  Luke was awkward, a little dorky in Episode IV, and he turns out to be the one who is the resilent one.  Anakin was a hotshot, cool guy, who had it all, and blew it to go to the darkside, as he is the one in the end who was flawed.

2.  Acting of Anakin Skywalker?  This one Hayden is responsible for, so I give him a 4.

I'm sure Hayden is a nice guy in real life, but he can't act for shit.  He is just another pretty face in Hollywood who is there for his looks, not his ability.  Every dramatic scene Hayden can't pull off, as it turns out laughable, the death scene with his mom, the fireplace scene with Padme, on Mustafar with Obiwan/Padme, I could go on and on.  The only scene he pulls off is when he confesses to Padme about killing the tuskens, that is actually a good scene, ruined by Padme condoning someone going on a mass murdering spree???

Anchorhead said:

For the record - the prequel gushers at TFN need their heads examined - or at the very least, they need to occasionally go outdoors.  When they're about 30 years older, all of the OOT upset will make much more sense to them.  They'll finally understand that art should be left alone.  If they don't, then the art was lost on them all along.

 

To this day I will never understand the fanbase at TFN and their utter happiness when the GOUT was announced as non-anamorphic.  It was almost glee in every post from the gushers saying, "You are getting what you deserve!"

I never argue with what SW movies a person likes, cause to each his own, but these are the movies that Lucas created from 77-83, and for a fanbase to go along and be glad that they are getting shitted on is just puzzling to me?  

I believe the big change in style of movies started with the PG-13 rating as that really put a red flag to the summer movie.  BladeRunner was R, Star Wars was PG, Terminator was R, Raiders of the Lost Ark was PG, that sounded right.  I wouldn't take my nephews to Bladerunner, but I would take them to SW in 1977.

What PG-13 did is it forced studios to cut back to get that PG rating, and I believe that hurt many summer movies.  ESB would have been PG-13, and I believe they may have toned it down in fear of losing kids for merchandising, etc. 

Now with PG-13, there is an age # that every parent must think about, and every studio must think about, and I think that causes fear of the whats called the target audience these days.  Back in the day as a kid, I went to PG movies that may have been alittle too adult for me, but it didn't kill, and I didn't go to R movies, and I believe they were simpler times, and the movie quality reflected it.

DarkFather said:

He had substantial creative support for writing ANH, and the superb acting in that film is largely because of Alec Guiness' seasoned talent, and the other actors improvising for themselves. It's nothing to do with Lucas being a good director. He was bad. Really bad. On all accounts during production, the guy was sorely lacking in the social skills department. "Faster and more intense, CO."

ESB was neither written nor directed by Lucas. Kasdan wrote the script, and Kershner directed. Lucas was on the other side of the globe during most of the production.

And American Graffiti I don't see as being anything to write home about, and THX-1138 I've only watched clips of (didn't interest me). That's preferance, though. I'm trying to bring around the idea that the more control Lucas has over a Star Wars film, the more it's panned by critics and fans.

I respect  your choices on what you like and don't like by Lucas, but I just don't think he was a hack in the 70's.  As I said, I think he was well past his prime by the time he filmed TPM, and he lost that edge that he had before he was a billionaire.

I just think there are 2 Lucas's, pre-SW1977 and post-SW1977, and the pre-1977 could have had a nice career as a director if he wasn't swallowed up by SW-mania.  Coppola even said, "The success of Star Wars robbed Hollywood of a great director."

As for comparing sequels to their originals, I could say the same thing about Lethal Weapon IV compared to Lethal Weapon, is that the same director?  Richard Donnor directed Superman I, Lethal Weapon, and many great films, and then I see Lethal Weapon IV, and that was an utter piece of shit, that sorta ruined the series to me, but again, I think Donnor was well past his prime by 1998, and lost that edge that happens to most directors.  Only guys like Scorcese and Spielberg have been consistent in their movies their whole career.

DarkFather said:

Lucas is an idea machine. He has some good ideas, but he faulters as a writer and director to the point that I'd consider him downright incompetent in those areas. Realize how important they are in making a film a classic.

Come on man, Lucas did direct Star Wars, American Graffiti and THX-1138, so he is not an incompetent director.

I won't rate Lucas in the Spielberg/Scorcese league, but he still has a good body of work in the 70's.  I just think Lucas was well past his prime by the time the PT came out in 1999.  He was essentially an Executive Producer from 1980 on.

I am no PT defender, but AOTC is the only Prequel movie I enjoyed.  I thought TPM was too kiddy, and I thought ROTS just dropped the ball on too many key issues that try to tie up the 6 movies, but AOTC kinda was a standalone movie to me in some respects.

Of course the Padme/Anakin romance is horrendous, but I totalled it once, and it came out to about 12 minutes of screentime they had together that would make you puke.  So only 5% of the movie gave me the dry-heaves:)

I think I enjoyed AOTC simply because it is Obiwans movie, and he is the only character I reallly cared about in the PT.  I liked the whole Kamino part and thought his fight with JangoFett was good too.  I was always suprised that many fans missed a funny line from ObiWan taking a shot at the Jedi Council, "R4, send the signal back to the old folks home!" 

Another scene I liked was when Count Dooku was tempting ObiWan after he was captured on Geonosis.  Again, maybe this comes down to me being a huge fan of Christopher Lee, but I like the line, "Join me ObiWan, and together we can destroy the sith!"

Overall, the ending to AOTC is the best of the PT cause it sets everything up for what should have been a great third movie, as Dooku meets with The Emperor, Yoda/Obiwan/Windu discussing the upcoming Clone Wars,  then Palpatine is overseeing the formation of the Empire, while Padme and Anakin are secretly getting married, great montage! 

Then we get to Episode III, and Lucas just fucked that movie up royally!  Geez, what a huge letdown, but we've been down that road before....

I would keep the macro story the prequels story told, as I believe that was the one positive.  I like Palpatines rise to Emperor, as each movie he gains more and more power through the political process, as it sort of mirrored the rise of Hitler in the 1930's.  I know Lucas/Spielberg are big WWII buffs, so I think Lucas took alot of themes of the rise of Dictators during that period.

I always liked the Senate scenes in Episode I, and thought it really gave the OT story a larger scope cause it changed it from this small story about a band of rebels to an epic struggle that trickled down all across the galaxy.

(Mr. Lucas takes the stand and raises his right hand.....)

Prosecutor: Mr. Lucas, are you telling me the versions from 1977-83, called Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are not the real versions, so you don't feel anyone should profit off them?

Lucas: When you say Star Wars, you are talking about the Saga, yes I make money off of the 6 movie saga.

Prosecutor: No, Star Wars, the movie from 1977!

Lucas: The movie that came out in 1977 was called Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, I really don't know what you are talking about???

Prosecutor: Star Wars, the movie that showed Uncle Owen unknowlingly buying C3PO and R2D2 which set everything in motion.

Lucas: No, Uncle Owen owned C3PO for 10 years after Episode I, and when he bought him in Episode IV, he didn't recognize the only gold plated droid who talked like an english butler in the galaxy.

Prosecutor: What???? Ok, how about Return of the Jedi from 1983, where Luke talks to Leia about their mother, and Leia says she remembers her very sad and died while she was very young.

Lucas: No, No, No! Luke/Leia's mother died at childbirth, Leia is having force visions of her mother in that scene.

Prosecutor: Huh???? Ok, how about the older Anakin shown at the end as a force ghost smiling at his son next to Obiwan and Yoda.

Lucas: Older Anakin, not sure what you mean?? Anakin died in Episode III, and then reappears as his 20 year old self at the end of Episode VI, even though Obiwan, who never turned to the darkside, has to sit in jedi heaven as a crusty old man.

Prosecutor: Your honor, I move a motion to arrest Mr. Lucas for perjury!

Judge: Sir, I have been a Star Wars fan since 1977, and I have been dealing with the Mr. Lucas that is on stand today for the past 12 years! Get used to it!

Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi, plain and simple.  Star Wars is my favorite movie of all-time, Empire is my favorite sequel of all-time, and the OOT is my favorite trilogy of all-time.  Come on George, put the OOT out on Bluray and I will defend you like I did from 1977-96!

ESB (Vader vs Luke)

The reason this is the best duel, IMO, is because this is the only duel that combines great intensity, great drama, great action, and great surroundings.  All of the other duels have good areas (TPM has a great action but zero drama, ROTJ had good drama, but little action because it is such a short duel. ANH has great dialogue but lame action, ROTS starts off with a bang on Mustafar but loses steam once they start lava surfing as it becomes a video game at that point)

If you watch the ESB duel, it is the only one where you really understand what Luke is going through, as Kershner did a great job of showing the duel from LUKES POV.  The Duel builds and builds as Vader is kicking Lukes as  physically and mentally as Luke lie there late in the duel utterly a beaten man.   And I didn't even need to mention the revelation to make my point either, but of course that is icing on the cake.

Trust me guys, watch the ESB Cloud City duel again between Vader and Luke, it is the only duel that has EVERYTHING!

rcb said:

 and the redone ending makes so much more sense then the original.

I have to take issue with that, because I think it doesn't make any sense. 

If you are referring to a younger Anakin put in the ghost scene, that totally dispels the point of ROTJ.  ROTJ is about the redemption of Darth Vader, and how the older Anakin, is conflicted thoughout the movie, and finally saves his son by killing the Emperor.  By showing an older Anakin standing there next to an older ObiWan, you see the character come full circle, as his redemption is complete.

By changing the ending in the SE with Hayden in the ghost scene, Lucas says that Anakin died on Mustafar, which would totally contradict ROTJ since it was the OLDER Anakin who was conflicted, it was the older Anakin who killed the Emperor, and the OLDER Anakin who tells Luke, "Tell your sister you were right...." 

By saying Anakin & Vader are two different people misses the point of ROTJ because they are ONE person the whole time, and even though he went by Darth Vader throughout the OT, there was always was that part of Anakin, the good guy that never left. 

Even Lucas doesn't even understand the original story he wrote back in 1983, just so he could stick some gimmick in the 2004 DVD's and try to tie the trilogies together.

see you auntie said:

CO, do you own the GOUT?

 I bought it and was utterly disgusted with the quality, I haven't watched it since.  I own a 52" HDTV and those DVD's are unwatchable on a TV like that.   I was expecting The Abyss, non anamorphic quality, which is pretty good on DVD, but the GOUT is officially my 3 worst quality DVD's.  I felt like a sucker after I bought them, and kinda left a bad taste in my mouth as a SW fan ever since.  To put it in perspective, Gigli is better quality then the GOUT!

I have seen the movies hundreds of times in my life, but since '04, I just get pissed off when I pop them in.  Either I can watch a high quality transfer on DVD and get annoyed with all the stupid changes, or see the versions I truly love in a blurry, grainy quality.  Either way, I get annoyed!!!!

I guess if Lucas ever remasters the OOT for BluRay it will be that much sweeter that I can eventually enjoy.  Then again, probably not:)

And Gaffer Tape, thanks for the welcome back, it seems like things are back to normal around here:)

Actually, there was one goosebump scene in ROTJ:

When the three ghosts appear (Guiness, Shaw, and Yoda)  I actually loved that scene even as a kid, cause it really gave closure to me with the trilogy back in '83.

Sorry for my negative comments towards ROTJ, but I honestly haven't watched the movie in entirety since Lucas made the fucking change in the '04 Version.  I hate that change, I hate it with a passion, so much that he literally ruined the damn movie for me, because the ending in the Endor Village summed up the 3 movies. 

I still love the movie and will always have an affection for it, cause I still remember sitting there as a 10 year old and just loving the movie at the time.  But that version was killed by Lucas, and sadly I REFUSE to watch ROTJ SE. 

What ROTJ lacks is that great scene that gives you goosebumps.

SW goosebump moments:
-Luke looking at the charred remains of Owen & Beru and realizing his destiny

-Luke looking at the Binary Sunset

-Luke & Leia swinging across the Death Star to that great John Williams score

-Obiwan smiling at Luke as Vader cuts him down and Luke screaming, "NOO!"

-Han telling Luke, "You're all clear kid!"  and Luke blowing up the deathstar.

ESB:

-Yoda lifting the X-Wing to that great John Williams score

-Han telling Leia, "I know."  then being frozen in carbonite while Leia stares Darth Vader.

-Vader telling Luke, "No, I am your father!"

-The ending of ESB as Lando/Chewy fly away and Luke,Leia, C3PO and R2 stare out at the galaxy.

I honestly can't think of any scene in ROTJ that gives me goosebumps, there are great scenes like the Throne Room scene, but nothing that gets me like SW & ESB, that is the difference as to why I think ROTJ is the worst.

ROTJ just doesn't have 'it' to me, as 'it' defines a great film.  It is really hard to explain 'it' but when you watch a great film, you know you have just witnessed greatness, and ROTJ just doesn't have 'it'.  SW & ESB have 'it' but ROTJ and the PT just don't. 

In saying that, I still enjoy ROTJ because it is the 3rd of a trilogy, and they are rarely great anyway, so you have to keep that in context when watching it.  It has some good moments, some great moments, and some bad moments, all have been named numerous times on SW websites. 

I will say that the one thing that really loses me as a SW fan is having the audience sympathize with Darth Vader, which later continued on as the story of the PT.  Sorry, but I just could never do it, as that story never resonated with me, as I rooted and cared about Luke, Leia, and Han, and once Lucas made that left turn shifting the story towards Anakin Skywalker, that is where he lost me as a fan.

I just think it is funny that Lucasfilm's last release of the movies in '08 was a boxset of the PT and a boxset of the OT. 

George Lucas Commentary on ROTS DVD, "It is one big movie, and it is suppose to be watched 1-6, and shouldn't be looked at as two trilogies."

I guess it is still two trilogies when it comes to marketing and making money on SW;)

Gaffer Tape said:That's one thing I've always found amazing about Star Wars: is that minor, insignificant characters would develop such devoted fanbases. I mean, Bossk literally appears for about two seconds, but he looks cool enough that he just gets fans!

 He was one of the coolest action figures I had.  Can't explain it, but he was just cool looking! 

You think about new characters in ESB, all cool:

-Yoda

-Lando

-Bossk

-IG-88

-Boba Fett

-The Emperor Hologram Image

No message 

Hayden was actually pretty good in Shattered Glass, but he just can't pull off anything dramatically, especially in key scenes in a movie.  He is so bad in the PT, especially in ROTS when he is arguing with Obiwan on Mustafar, that scene is laughable.

Hayden is an example of what is wrong with Hollywood these days, as there are many actors/actresses who are employed and get movie roles simply because they are good looking people.  There are alot of good actors these days who don't have movie star looks (Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Ed Norton, and I'm sure we can make a nice list).  But the big budget movie roles go to the 'good looking' actors who can't act for shit like the guy in Indy IV and Transformers, can't think of his name, but he sucks.  Megan Fox is another example of a hot actress who gets a job simply because she is hot.

If you want to see early Hayden, rent the TV series Higher Ground, where he plays a troubled teen who is sent to a reform school.  He does the same exact whiney crap in that show, and is just as bad as he was in the PT.

Octorox said:

I'm sorry but how do you guys know that this was the original OT backstory? Did you just assume it? I heard none of this in the OT. 

 

The Annotated Screenplays sheds light on the whole post-Anakin turn scene when Lucas was writing ROTJ:  pg. 269

Lucas, "It was decided during the story meetings that Uncle Owen was Ben Kenobis brother.  Owen always resented Ben for imposing Luke on them, and now Ben is taking blame for what is happening and feeling guilty.

Obiwan fought Anakin, and he thought he destroyed him, but the Emperor was able to save him.  The Emperor knew, as Ben did, that the Force was strong in the Skywalker family, and he began to search for Anakins offspring.  Luke was sent to Owen, and while his sister, Leia, was sent in seclusion with their mother (Anakins wife) to the protection of friends on a distant system.  The mother died shortly there after, and Lukes sister was adopted by Ben's Friend, The Governor of Alderran and his wife.