CO

skyjedi2005 said:

Maybe Jedi was where the divide between the oot and the special editions and prequels began, because he finally became a father.  When he made star wars and empire he was not a dad.

 

 I totally buy this theory.  And in fairness to Lucas, this happens to any artist who does something exceptional.  As Mickey said to Rocky in Rocky III, "Like every great champion, you became civilized and lost that edge."

I believe alot of these directors change when they have kids as first they lose that edge and become 'soft.'  Its natural but I think when they are writing, directing, etc, they think, "How will my kids like this?"  When Lucas was shooting SW in 1976 he was thinking, "How will I like this?"

Anchorhead said:

 

To me, the Indiana Jones franchise is heads & tails better than Star Wars because Lucas is kept in check by Spielberg & Ford. He doesn't get his way, so the films and stories are much better.

 This is an interesting point, and I look at the SW movies and Indy movies a bit differently.

Each Indy movie can been seen as their own standalone movie, with a beginning and an ending.   There really isn't a continuation from the first movie, other then the characters. 

Other then the original SW in 1977, each sequel IS part of a larger story, or a continuation that forces you to look at every movie as one entity.

So essentially you can like any Indy movie and really don't have to recognize all 4.  I personally love Raiders, but enjoy Temple of Doom because it is so dark.  Crusade is OK, and Crystal Skull is horrible, as I haven't watched Crusade since the early 90's on HBO, and Crystal Skull I will never watch again.

For SW movies, you are forced to pick on being a SW'77 fan, and OT fan, or a Saga fan.  It is very hard to be a SW & ESB fan, because Jedi is the ending of the story, so you have to take that in context.  But if you think Jedi sucks, then you almost have to be a SW'77 fan.  Same goes with the PT, if any of the PT movies blow, you are forced to being an OT fan.

Easterhay said:

We would always wonder, though, what happened before episode four.  What was The Clone Wars?  What made Anakin turn?  Who was Luke and Leia's mother?  We would always wonder...

 See, I am speaking from the generation of SW fans who were around 10-11 years old when Jedi came out, and NOBODY talked about the Prequels, they wanted the Sequel Trilogy.

If you stayed a fan of the Star Wars Trilogy, and thought Jedi was great, then you wanted more adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han.  I remember reading an interview in 1983, that Lucas was going to take 2 years off, and then film the Sequel Trilogy to come out in 1988, 1991, and 1994, take 2 more years off and then the Prequel Trilogy would come out in 1999, 2002, and 2005.  At that time I was in middle school thinking Star Wars films were coming out for the next 20 years, and that was the coolest feeling in the world!

Back in the 80's with no internet, you just waited every summer to see if another Star Wars movie came out, and I remember by 1988, I gave up and thought the Sequel Trilogy would never happen.

I was 10 years old when Jedi came out and absolutely loved it in back in '83.

I just remember leaving the theater utterly jazzed and thought it was so much better then Empire at the time.  If anyone has read my previous posts, you all know I have done a 180 on Empire and Jedi, and Star Wars has always been great to me.  But here is how I felt towards Jedi in '83:

-Jabbas palace:  I was fascinated with this part of the movie back in '83, as I remember seeing a behind the scenes documentary on PBS that summer on how they made Jabba move with 3 people controlling it.  I just thought Jabba was the coolest fucking thing in the world, and the build up of him over the years made it that much more special, as that is the reason why he should not be in the ANH:SE, or TPM.

-The Ewoks didn't bother me in '83 because I was 10 years old, and I was still a kid. 

-I was also fascinated with the Obiwan/Luke conversation about Anakin on Dagobah.  To me this explained everything I wondered since Empire, and it was like I finally got all my answers to Star Wars!   

-The last 45 minutes of Jedi blew my mind in 1983, as that was always the crown jewel of the movie.  The Death Star fight, the Endor fight, and Luke fighting Vader, couldn't ask for anything else as a 10 year old kid!

I have to say when Star Wars was over in 1983, the Trilogy was the greatest thing to me in the world, and Lucas was a pure genius.  I often wonder if Lucas stopped after 1983 and just walked away, would I give Jedi alittle more leeway??? 

This thread should be sent to colleges and used in Economics 101. 

"How to be a successful businessman selling the same thing over and over." 

:)

Nerfherder said:

I'm starting to think - with all due respect to this website - that this shouldn't be the place to air our misgivings about the impending Blu-ray release. We're arguing in a vacuum on this site - we need to discuss this on EVERY blu-ray review site that's out there, as THAT is where the powers that be look to gauge public reaction. As far as this site is concerned they'll just consider it the whinging of a few hardcore fans that are impossible to please and would congregate here anyways. If the discussions are spread the length and breadth of blu-ray internet land I think we have a far better chance of possibly instigating some change.

 At this point, Lucas knows that there is a segment of the fanbase that wants the OOT, because the bottom line is he wouldnt even address this issue back when the announced the 2004 DVD's.  Remember back in 2003, he pronounced those version don't exist anymore.  Then he relented and put them out on DVD in 2006, albeit a crappy version, but the bottom line is that it contradicts his 'they dont exist' statement.

Now Lucas says that it is too expensive to remaster, so they still do exist, but it is just too expensive now.  We've done our job, and I don't think there is much we can do, other then waiting for Mr. Lucas to give in. 

The only wakeup call to Lucasfilm is if the BluRay set did terrible sales, but there are enough Star Wars fans out there who 'put up' with the Special Editions to buy it. 

Now I will say that because Blurays still arent in the average home the same way DVD's were, sales may not be as great as expected.  NOBODY I know has a Bluray player, even I don't have one, as I am so sick of re-buying my movies over and over.  Plus many people are waiting for digital downloads too, so it should be interesting to see the final sales.

Diego said:

I'm not saying ROTJ doesn't have its flaws, and I know I'm biased cause I loved it as a child.

However, putting it together with the prequels is too harsh. ROTJ has heart. ROTJ has some emotions, something the prequels completely lack. The duel, when Vader is taunting Luke that maybe Leia might join the dark side and Luke loses it, is one of the most powerful moments in the trilogy, no scene in the prequels can even come close.

 I have to respectfully disagree.   The reason many of us here give Jedi a pass and not the PT, simply because it has Luke, leia and Han, and we were invested in those characters.  Jedi has alot of the same problems the prequels do with editing, kiddy tone, and sense of malaise in certain parts of the movie that it seems like it is going through the motions just to get to 2 hours. 

I have always said that the biggest failing of the PT is that I personally don't give a rats ass about the characters.  How can you care about a movie if you don't care about the characters???  So what happens is the only reason you are following the movie, or the trilogy, is simply because it is an extension, or prelude to the OT story we all fell in love with. 

Since the BluRay announcement of the SE's only last week, many of us here have just put our hands up at Star Wars.  Being a SW fan is the ultimate catch-22.   If you buy the Bluray SE cause you want to still somewhat enjoy the movies, you are funding Lucas and his hatred for the originals.  If you don't buy them and stick with Non-Anamorphic, you are sacrificing yourself to watching a crappy transfer of the movies you love.

So if anyone had the ultimate choice:  If you could go back and time and convince George Lucas to stop making movies after 1977, would you do it?  Now you are giving up Empire and Jedi for all you OT fans, so this is not an easy question.

But we would essentially be getting a BluRay Star Wars movie next year like one of Lawrence of Arabia, Citizen Kane, or Wizard of Oz.  A single classic movie with a great transfer to the original version, with loads of interviews in the context of 1977, remember Vader is not Lukes father now, and no Lucas revisionism.  We wouldn't be arguing about the SE, the PT, is Jedi the start of the downfall of Star Wars?  It would just be the Classic Star Wars that we would all buy, and not think twice about.

Mielr said:

Maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic, but Lucas' position on the OOT seems to have softened a bit. The fact that he used the cost of restoration as an excuse, and not the "my vision" argument, makes me think that there may be a chance down the road, when the OT is eventually released separately, and they need an incentive to have people buy them all over again.

 It's funny you said this because I thought the same thing after my initial anger of hearing about the SE-only boxset.

My only rationale is Lucas isn't including the OOT in this set, because that will give him a selling point for the next BluRay release. 

Alot of the SE-defenders say, "Well, he isn't in it for the money, or he would release ALL the versions to maximize his profits."  Lucas maybe stubborn, but he isn't stupid, and we should never believe anything he says because he did release the OOT on DVD (albeit a crappy version) after saying those versions don't exist.

My theory:  If Lucas says the OOT will be remastered down the road, more fans will hold out for that release.  If he says the OOT is too expensive to remaster, then alot of people on the fence will relent and buy this edition.  Then in 2013, Lucas decides to remaster the OOT, and he doubles dips for a bigger profit.

As I said, the man is stubborn, but he aint stupid when it comes to making money.

Octorox said:

“Releasing the originals is kind of an oxymoron because the quality of the original is not very good. You have to go through and do a whole restoration on it, and you have to do that digitally. It’s a very, very expensive process to do it. So when we did the transfer to digital, we only transferred really the upgraded version.”

Read more: Star Wars Blu-Ray Announced for Fall 2011, Deleted Scene Revealed | /Film http://www.slashfilm.com/2010/08/14/star-wars-blu-ray-announced-for-fall-2011-deleted-scene-revealed/#ixzz0wcpxnYMM

 

...meh

 Well guys, I am officially signing off from OT.com and SW in general.  For years, I wanted a quality release of the OOT, and I always came here in hopes that I get that news someday.

Well, Mr. Lucas is spewing the same bullshit for the last 10 years about the OOT, so I honestly don't care anymore.  It's a waste to even care about the OOT as I almost look at it now like a childhood friend who moved away.  The memories will always be there, but it's time to move on from SW.

Always cool to see deleted scenes from a SW movie.  After seeing these movies a zillion times, to see something totally new after all these years is very eerie.

Another question:

I believe Clive Revil(the original Emperor from ESB) is still alive.  Does he get any residuals now that he is totally cut out of the film since the 2004 updated version?

I can't believe any of these moron SW fans who dress up can't answer why Luke and Leia kiss, yet they are siblings.  Is every SW fanboy naive to the reality that Lucas was making this up as he was going along? 

Let's hope he was, or if this was planned, that would be creepy as hell!

vote_for_palpatine said:

CO said:

As a kid growing up in the early 80's:

1.  Star Wars

2.  Jedi

3.  Empire

 

As an adult:

1.  Empire

2.  Star Wars

3.  Jedi

 I see what ya did there, CO.

 I guess I should explain how my tastes for the OT has changed from being a kid to an adult. 

Star Wars never changed for me, I always loved, still love it, and because I saw it in '77 I can enjoy it as that standalone movie it was originally made for, or enjoy it part of the trilogy too.

Empire changed for me from 1980.  When I saw it in '80 as an 8 year old, I wasn't a huge fan.  It was just too dark for me at that age, and the one thing that I still remember was wincing when Han cut that Tauntaun open!  I remember being annoyed the good guys lost and there was no ending.  Of course years later, I rewatched the trilogy in highschool in the context of it being part 2 of 3, and absolutely loving it and realizing how great it was.  I probably love Star Wars more, but Empire is the better made movie.

As for Jedi, I LOOOOVVVEDDD in 83.  I was only 10 so the ewoks didn't bother me, but I just remember that the first SW movie I was old enough to anticipate.  I remember it being called Revenge of the Jedi in the summer of '82.  I remember seeing all the previews on TV, and couldn't wait to see it.  Back as a kid I loved the Jabba scenes, as I thought he was the coolest villain.  And the one scene i loved was Obiwan talking to Luke on Dagobah about Anakin, and seeing the trilogy come full circle.  The ending was awesome, and I just remember being totally juiced when I got home that summer day!  Years later, the movie didn't hold up as much for me.  The Jabba's scenes are too long, the ewoks are annoying, and now it definitely ranks last of the OOT for me. 

As a kid growing up in the early 80's:

1.  Star Wars

2.  Jedi

3.  Empire

As an adult:

1.  Empire

2.  Star Wars

3.  Jedi

mfastx said:

 

 LOL yes, I know it's surprising, but I'm a young'un and ANH seemed a little slow for me.  Keep in mind that the first OT versions I saw were the 1997 SE's, so I'm a new Star Wars fan.  

I don't have a problem where you rank ANH, it just pisses me off that Lucas continues to change the OOT to capture a new generation, and it is clear that it doesn't make a difference, and all you do is piss off the people who love the original versions.  Now nobody loves ANH, good job George!!!

TheBoost said:

I know unabashed Lucas-hate is the order of the day, but is it possible that he was being tongue in cheek to his peers? He's not above a little self-deprecating humor now and then.

 Exactly, other things that come to mind that Lucas is messing with the fans:

-Lucas said about a year ago, "We all know that Empire Strikes Back is the worst Star Wars film!"

-And Lucas wearing a 'Han Shoots First' T-Shirt on the set of Indy IV.

I actually think Lucas is a pretty funny guy when he doesn't take SW too seriously.  He has that dry sense of humor, and many take it the wrong way because they don't know if he is joking or not.

Baronlando, I totally agree.

Everytime Lucas tries to make SW too serious, its comes off as more ridiculous, IMO.

The great thing about SW 77-83 is that they were fun movies, yet they had a mix of drama, comedic moments, and good action.  But the bottom line is they were FUN to watch over and over!!!!  Baron is right, they shouldn't be compared to the Godfather, Lawrence of Arabia, or Schindlers List, they aren't those type of movies.  No one watches SW for the great academy award winning performances, you watched them because the actors played their roles and if you bought them in that role, it worked.  Han was cool, Luke was the farmboy, Leia was spunky, and Obiwan was the old sage, and thats it. 

Once Lucas turned the Trilogy/Saga (about midway through ROTJ) into Darth Vaders tragic story, that is when SW sort of lost me.  Luckily it was just a subplot of ROTJ, so I still enjoyed the movie, but once the PT was going to be about the rise of fall of Darth Vader, to me that is too serious for the SW universe.

Lucas turned a bunch of well made fun movies into War and Peace, and now the 'Saga' is laughable, because you have too much cheese in what is supposed to be a serious story that Lucas was trying to accomplish.

Remember the reason we all fell in love with the OOT was they were fun, yet well made movies, nothing more, nothing less.

I have always made it a rule for me if I am going to sit down and watch a DVD, I will never fast forward through any scene. 

Although when I watch the Prequels, I do start fast forwarding once the opening crawl appears on screen, and continue fast forwarding until the ending credits come up. :)

xhonzi said:

So... are a lot of you saying that you hate the prequels because the O-OT was never released on DVD?

 No, I resent the PT because Lucas treats the OOT like shit.  If Lucas never revisited SW in the mid 90's, the SE would never exist.  Lucas decided in 1994 to make the PT movies, and then in the process decided to do the SE first, mostly to get interest back into SW and have them match up with the PT Special Effects. 

The change i hate the most of the Special Editions is Hayden inserted into the Ghost Scene at the end of the ROTJ.  No prequels = Sebastian Shaw is still there.

Gaffer Tape said:

Um... gotta say in context that sounds highly hypocritical.  "What George did was wrong.  I'm going to do the same thing, but it's cool because... well, I'm doing it and nobody's complaining about it."  Pff.

 Gaffer, I see what you're saying, but there is a difference.  Lucas is adding scenes or special effects that are from the present day to a 30 year old movie.  Cameron is just adding stuff from the cutting room floor.

If Lucas just added the Luke/Biggs scene by the X-Wing fighter in Star Wars, I don't fans like us would have really cared.  It was a shoot in 1976, so the scene doesn't stick out like adding Hayden Douchebag Christenson to the Return of the Jedi ending, or a ridiculous CGI Jabba to a Star Wars talking to Han Solo.

Baron, did James Cameron really say that?  Wow, usually directors are a fraternity and they never speak out against another ones work. 

I think we all know that EVERY director feels that way off the record, but that is pretty damning on Lucas that someone actually says it on the record.

generalfrevious said:

Still, no one has answered my question:

Why did SW deserve to be treated so badly by Lucas?

 Because he is the creator and owns the rights to the movies, so sadly he can do what he wants.  Essentially he has a monopoly on the fanbase.

Gaffer Tape said:

I don't think it's that.  I think it's more of him wanting to hold on to the glory that is Star Wars for as long as he can make it last, especially considering it's a his biggest property.  Updating the old movies, in his mind, keeps them relevant and fresh and able to continue to sell constantly.

 I agree, as I always thought Lucas worried that the OOT would be like King Kong 1933 version to younger fans.  Even though King Kong 1933 is a classic, many young kids would never watch it because of the movie being in black and white, and the effects feel out of date too.

Ironically, Star Wars OOT effects hold up really well 30 years later, and I think if new generation would have grown up on it, they would have loved it just as much.  Just look at fans who grew up in the late 80's/early 90's who didn't see the OOT in the theaters, they never complained about the effects?  The only time people complained about the effects is when Lucas starting changing the movies and the whole context of the movies changed, and you have TFN wackos yearning for more changes.

Episode III I finally felt duped.  The ironic thing about my fandom is I was actually a big PT gusher after TPM & AOTC.  The reason being that I felt Episode III was going to be the ultimate SW movie because of all the plot points that Lucas had saved up for it, and I also felt it would make TPM & AOTC better and in many way have them make more sense too.

Boy was I wrong!

I remember walking out of ROTS and kinda had an empty feeling like, "that was it???"  It started with the turn scene, and I remember thinking it was utterly ridiculous the moment I saw it on screen.  Then the final nail in the coffin was two scenes:

-The Duel on Mustafar.  I really thought this would be the mother of all lightsaber battles, and to be honest, it sucked!

-Padme losing the will to live and dying in childbirth.  All these years I kept dissecting Leias words from Jedi about her mother, does she go in hibernation with Leia?  Does she have to choose one of the children, and lets Luke go in a Sophie's Choice moment?  No, she fucking dies in childbirth and contradicts that scene in Jedi!

The finall straw was a week after I saw ROTS in the theater, I decided to watch the OT again Memorical Day Weekend, and after the circle was complete, I realized how much better the OT was.  The characters, the humor, the drama, even the real locations. 

I guess you could say Memorial Day 2005, I realized they sucked.