CO

Although Star Wars is my favorite movie (of all-time), I will say that Empire is the better movie.  Sort of like when I compare Tarantino's Resovoir Dogs to Pulp Fiction,  I love Dogs more but Pulp is the better movie overall.

Now in fairness, Star Wars and Empire are two different types of movies.  Star Wars is essentially a fantasy serial that isn't supposed to take itself too serious, as it resembles a movie like Wizard of Oz.  Empire IS supposed to be serious, (hence the Cave scene).  That scene is what seperates Empire from the other 5 SW movies because it isn't spelled out for the viewer and there is alot that is going on if you watch it over and over.  What Lukes does BEFORE he goes in the cave, what Luke does during the cave, and Yoda's quiet reaction as Luke has failed at the cave.  Many PT gushers argue the PT has alot of symbolism like the cave scene, but it is all tricks and cheap lines like Obiwan saying to Anakin in Clones, "You'll be the death of me."  Well of course Lucas knows that when he is writing it because he's seen the OT!

I think SW & Empire accomplish what they set out to do, and what you see over the next 4 SW films is Lucas trying to mend SW and Empire together and it just doesn't work.  Jedi & Menace try to be like SW on a grand level, yet try to be empire on a smaller level.  Clones and Sith try to be like Empire on a grand level, and try to be like SW on a smaller level.

Gaffer Tape said:

I do always find it odd the assertion that kids will love  ROTJ and then grow out of it, or even Anchorhead's comment that kids won't notice the tonal shift as much since ROTJ was more focused towards them.  At 9, I always found ROTJ to be a lesser film than the previous two.  It always felt lighter and fluffier.  It always felt somewhat tired to me.  That's obviously not a judgment.  I just always found it interesting.  What's also interesting to me is that I always thought I was the only person who found Empire the superior film of the two.  All of my friends growing up thought ROTJ was the best of the trilogy, and it was only when I started posting here that I found others that agreed with me.  I guess that just means I was one of the few children who wasn't put off by the darker elements.  Or maybe that 9 is just getting so close to the dividing line that it becomes a bit blurry.  There were certainly film franchises I saw when I was younger (4-6) where I was put off by an installment I felt was darker and scarier.

 Gaffer, I think I have stated here before my total love for Jedi in '83 as a 10 year old, and also how turned off I was at ESB in '80 as a 7 year old kid.

I remember walking out of ESB totally shocked at the dark turn the sequel took.  I didn't hate it because it was still SW, but it was my least favorite til around high school.

I remember walking out of Jedi on cloud nine.  I can still remember driving home with 2 older brothers just thinking that was better then the original.  I remember being utterly obssessed with the Jabba sequence, as I remember watching the PBS special that summer on how they created Jabba and all the creatures.  I loved the Obiwan/Luke talk on Dagobah as it was magical to me to see Obiwan almost as a person summing up the last 6 years of our lives.  The ending was great too, and never thought about more SW movies as that was closure to me.  I can't remember even thinking back then about prequels or a sequel trilogy, as that part of my life was over.

When I changed was I believe I was in 11th grade during Presidents Day Weekend and SciFi played the trilogy.  Watched SW and still loved it, watch ESB....and it was like a total revelation of how fucking great this movie is and what was I thinking?  Then  Jedi came on and it started to hit me of all the stuff people complain about. 

And nothing about the movies have changed since I was in highschool  :)

zombie84 said:

I had never heard it was broadcast in HD. I wonder why it wasn't included on the BD were that the case. Does A&E even have an HD channel? And have they re-broadcast it since 2004?

 I have A&EHD, and EOD has been broadcast several times.  I remember it was on sometime last year, and it was full HD.  It is the shorter version then the DVD, as it is only 2 hours with commercials as I cant remember what the OOT scenes looked like.  If it is on again, I will keep an eye on those scenes.

The History Channel usually shows the documentary on the Saga (not sure the name of that) where it gets real philosophical about the 6 movies, and that is in HD too.

doubleKO said:

 

 And this thread is about Return of the Jedi :)

 You're right. Back on topic.............

S_Matt said:

 

 

Don't patronize me - I know a bit about film grosses. But I don't think sequels gross less because people don't like them - its just that you can never recreate the novelty of something like the original Star Wars.

In any case, in the last decade it has become increasingly common for sequels to outgross originals.

And to my mind, I feel that casual moviegoers who have less investment in the story are less likely to question plot developments than those who do. They wouldn't care enough about the movie to care whether Vader was Luke's father or not.

My challenge to those who don't buy Vader being Luke's father is to actually come up with a good argument against it, and you'll have to do better than "But Obi-Wan said" or "George Lucas never intended".

 You gotta relax, I can only tell ya what they told me:)  Its not my opinion as I love ESB!

Now that is not the sole reason they are not big fans of ESB, that was just one quibble they had because I asked them about it.  I know they said the Yoda parts were slow and boring too.  These are the same people who think the Rocky Sequels are ridiculous, and Jaws and Indiana Jones sequels are ridiculous.   These guys probably aren't going to like any sequels, so ESB was just another sequel to them that didn't live up to the original.

S_Matt said:

It is extremely difficult to imagine that there are some who dislike Empire, one of the finest science fiction films ever made.

As for disputing the plausibility of Vader being Luke's father... SERIOUSLY?

 

 SMatt, you're not thinking like a 'casual moviegoer' you are thinking like a SW fan.

Now my brothers friends think ESB is a good movie, but most casual moviegoers don't like sequels, (Hence why 99% of sequels gross less then the original).

I had this conversation with my brothers friends a few years ago at a party (they were born in 1965 or 66), and I was suprised at their opinions on the sequels.  They laughed at Jedi when I brought it up, and thought Empire was a well crafted movie but thought it was a bit too much with the Vader reveal.  Plus they were still mad it didn't have an ending in 1980.

These are casual movie goers who aren't SW diehards like us, so they don't care about the Saga, or the Classic Trilogy, they just went and saw the movies in 77, 80, 83 like most people, and that was their opinion.

Check out the grosses of the SW movies (adjusted for inflation and without counting re-releases), SW'77 outgrosses Empire and Jedi by a large amount.

S_Matt said:

Online it became pretty fashionable to hate Jedi in the wake of The Phantom Menace because certain sections of fandom felt they needed to appear nonchalant about the negative reception of that film, as a way to say "we saw this coming" sort of thing.

 SMatt, there has always been a level of hatred towards Jedi from people that were older then me.

I was 10 years old when I saw Jedi, and all of my friends and myself loved it at the time (We were all born from 1971-73).  Most of my older brothers friends (Born around 1965-66) thought it was a joke then, the same way many fans who grew up with the OT thought Episode I was a joke.

And you would be suprised that many people older then me think ESB isn't that great either.  My brothers friends who are in their mid 40's just love The Original Star Wars (as they saw it when they were around 13 years old in 1977.   They LOVE the original and think the sequels are a bit much, as many of them joke with me, "Darth Vader is Lukes father??? That's a bit too much" 

It is all at what age did you see the movies?  Star Wars '77 is universally loved by everyone I know, and then the ESB and Jedi vary among what age you are.  And as I said, I have yet to meet a person who loves the PT, but I do have friends who accept it and enjoy with a grain of salt simply because its more SW.

Don't go by what is said on the internet, because they are the extreme fans on both sides who think WAY too much about the movies.

Including myself :)

S_Matt said:

 

I never said it was made for kids. I can't help it if it appealed to kids though, now can I? And there had to be some reason that it did. Maybe because its basically a fairy-tale? Or did I miss something? Maybe I missed some other movie called Star Wars that was an existential drama of Shakespearean magnitude?

Yes, Jedi definitely had things that appeal to kids in higher doses than the first film did. Yes, it is lacking a certain emotional gravitas of the first two films, Empire in particular. But in my opinion is nowhere near as bad as a lot of its detractors think. Too many people went "Oh, look how Phantom Menace turned out - quick, blame it on Jedi! We'll look smart because we saw this coming." - now there is some revisionism!

 

 

 

 

 There is a difference between appealing to kids and gearing the movie towards kids.  Star Wars appealed to kids like me, but the movie was not made in that tone.  Whereas Jedi was made to appeal more to kids my age, and it is evident in the movie.

There are alot of movies that appeal to kids, but that doesn't mean they are 'kiddy' movies.  Back to the Future was beloved by 12 year old kids like myself in 1985 making it one of the biggest grossing movies of all time, but the movie really wasn't made in that vein.  Heck, a big part of the story is the 'incestual' angle of Marty and his mom!   I'm sure they didn't think of kids when they were putting that storyline in!

There is a reason that alot of people from my generations (30 and older) thought that Jedi was the best back in 1983, and now think it is the worst of the trilogy in 2011.  We all grew up and that was the only SW Trilogy movie that doesn't hold up as well.

zombie84 said:

CO, whenever you post I feel like me and you had a very similar childhood experience growing up. I was too young to see them in theatres and grew up in the 1980s watching them on video. My dad taped SW off television for me and then later ESB and I watched those over and over. At one point I taped over Star Wars, but then someone gave me a recording of ROTJ from HBO. Later I re-taped Star Wars but then lost ESB. I finally bought ESB on video when I was ten, my first video purchase ever. Then when the 1995 Faces tapes came out, I only bought SW and ROTJ because I already owned ESB. So 1997 was the first time I bought a boxset. I never really thought of them as one big story, even though there is a logical progression that you get a sense of, but I mainly just enjoyed each film on its own merits.

 It may be just a generational thing as every kid today has ALL the movies to watch back to back.  But I was from a generation where you had to wait YEARS for the release of the movie to either home video or HBO.  Heck, I waited 6 damn years to Star Wars again in 1983!!!!

I was like that with all the movies I grew up with.  I never thought of 'the Rocky Story', I watched Rocky II a zillion times in either 1980 or 1981 when it came to HBO, (I actually saw Rocky II before seeing Rocky because I was too young to see it in theaters). 

I often wonder if Lucas made SW movies much like Indiana Jones movies as each movie would have its own story and that would have given him more freedom to write the story without being indebted to the previous ones.  Well...thats another topic!

doubleKO said:

CO, I edited my last reply to you with an apology and a couple of questions about Empire/Jedi. Here is just the edit:

edit: Sorry I shouldn't be flippant with you CO as you are one of the fans that I was looking for. I just didn't really want the PT brought into it. Do you watch Jedi at all? Are you satisfied with Empire as a conclusion to a two-part saga? Or do you just get to the end of Empire and go "Meh I remember...Rancor, Jabba, skimpy Leia, Death Star, Ewoks, Lightsabers, explosion. Been there, done that."?

 I honestly watch the OT movies as standalone movies, because whenever I try to watch them as a 'Saga/6 movies' or 'Trilogy/3 movies' it has never worked.

The reason I am like this is I grew up watching the movies on HBO way before I had a VCR to watch them together.   SW came to HBO in '83, so I watched that a zillion times on its own.  ESB came to HBO in '86, and I watched that a zillion times on it own.  Same with Jedi in '88, as I had a VCR by then, but didn't buy the trilogy til 'one last time in 1994.'  

I never really thought of them as 'one big story' even in the trilogy days. Sorry, but this is the biggest failing of Lucas because I saw Star Wars in the context of how it was told in 1977, and Lucas keep changing and changing the story, there are just too many inconsistencies.   If I watch each movie on its own and in the context of how that movies was made, then they work alot better.

When Jedi is on Spike, I will usually tune in and out for certain parts:  Sail Barge, Throne Room Scenes, Dagobah, Vaders entrance at the beginning.  But I can't remember the last time I sat down and watched it on DVD, probably a few years ago. (I think 2007 or 2008)  Whereas I will watch Star Wars and Empire whenever I get time to watch a DVD.

What I meant by the PT affecting Jedi was more on the level that it opened my eyes that Lucas was loosing it in '83. (I also love Raiders but think Temple of Doom and Crusade are OK and Crystal Skulls is unwatchable).  The PT story doesn't affect anything about Jedi to me, but after seeing the quality of PT movies, it made more sense why Jedi is sub-par to Star Wars and Empire.

S_Matt said:

 Star Wars and Jedi do have a juvenile slant and feature "cute" side characters that lend themselves to merchandising, particularly the type aimed at kids.

 Oh god, here goes the revisionism of the Old movies again.......  Star Wars wasn't made for kids (Hence it was targeted at Comic Con in 1976, as they were all teenagers/early 20's SciFi nerds.  If Lucas thought that the merchandising would be a cash cow, they actually would have figures ready to me demand of all of us kiddies for Christmas 1977.  I remember having to wait for Christmas '78 to get most of my SW action figures :)

Star Wars is a real gritty movie (Original Version), and alot darker then many of the revisionists give it today.  Just to see two dead skeletons at a young age was very shocking to me!   Sure it is not as dark as Empire, but its not suppose to be, and it actually pulls off the perfect combination of action, drama and comedy without one dominating the other.

Just watch the final Battle of Yavin, there is one little hint of kiddie himor in there as C3PO stands next to Leia and doesn't say a word!  Just watch where Obiwan tells Luke about his father, and C3PO actually tells Luke he is gong to shutdown.  That is Lucas telling us it is time for a serious part of the movie, and it is a key part.  The movie builds and builds the drama and gets more serious as it goes on.  Just because a movie isn't dark for 2 hours doesnt mean it is a kiddy-fest like Jedi comes off as.

The irony of the PT is that it actually made me look more unfavorably towards Jedi, because you can see the seeds of SW getting shitty in 1983, and it comes full circle in 2005. Back in the mid 90's, I thought Jedi was just a hiccup by Lucas (so I enjoyed the movie with a grain of salt), but now you see things are alot more clear now as to where the movies were headed.

For many fans like myself who love Star Wars and Empire, and think the SW universe gets worse after 1980, that means the SW saga has only 2 great movies out of 6.  That is a 33% rate for all you Saga defenders on that new Facebook page who are about to pay 100+ dollars for that boxset ;)

Loved it as a kid (saw it in '83 when i was 10 years old).  Through the years I have come to realize that the movie is so much more inferior to Star Wars and Empire.  I will never hate the movie simply because it is part III to my beloved Trilogy I grew up with, but it will always be the least watched of the OT for me.

I have to say Jedi is the movie that is most ruined by Lucas changes.  'Jedi Rocks' shows that Lucas has lost touch on what is cool in movies today, and Hayden in the Force Ghost scene shows that Lucas has lost touch into what the damn story is about!

corellian77 said:

I'm starting to wonder just how aware he is of the divided fan base.  Does anyone have any interviews wherein Lucas acknowledges the fans' desire to have the OOT?  Is he completely oblivious to the demand, or just that entrenched in preserving his ego?

 Lucas said about a year ago (not sure where) but I am a paraphrasing:  "You have a section of the fanbase under 25 who love the PT, and you have a section over the age of 25 that don't like the PT....."

And judging by Kate Lucas's tweets, I believe the Lucas family is well aware of the fans rift towards the movies, SE, OOT, etc.  I was shocked to see that she sounded like someone from TFN responding with the talking points, "If you don't like the PT movies, don't watch em..."

Which I always have to laugh because once Lucas put Hayden in ROTJ, WE CAN"T IGNORE THE PT ANYMORE!!!!!!   That just showed me this isn't a debate anymore, which is sad to me.

Wouldn't waste my time of day arguing with those idiots, especially that one moron who has taken over the page and responds to everyone.  You can't even have a civil debate with these guys anymore, as they all have their gusher talking points like they are a bunch of politicans.

thejediknighthusezni said:

    I wonder if, for the BR set, it would be possible to provide the OOT, but add features that would compel users to perform extra steps in the menu in order to access any version the director doesn't then consider "Primary." Something like activating the commentary.

   

 Lucas could make the 'orginal versions' an easter egg the same way T2 did with the alternate ending version of the film.

For the T2 DVD, there is code you have to input on the menu and then the 3rd version appears which has the 'alternate ending' of an older Sarah Connor.  The only way I found out about that was looking on the web and one of the reviewers revealed the code.

So the bottom line is if I wasn't looking for it, I never would have found it. 

The Blues Brothers was announced today on BluRay with the Theatrical Version and Extended Version.   That's what annoys me about the bullshit excuse of its 'too expensive' to restore the OOT, EVERY studio is doing it, so it can't be THAT expensive!

The frustrating is actually Lucas has created this fan rift between which version you love more, where it never had to get like this.

Look at movies like Lord of the Rings Trilogy, Terminator 2, ET,  The Abyss, Aliens, Bladerunner, etc, all have DVD and some BluRay releases with both versions.  I have never argued or even cared which version another fan liked.  I have never gotten offended that there are 5 versions of Bladerunner, and the one I love might not be the preferred one by the majority.  If some fans prefers the ET/SE with walkie talkies instead of guns, so be it, I don't ever have to watch that version.

If Lucas had released both versions on DVD in 2004, and on BluRay in 2011, the fanbase wouldn't have silly arguments on Han Shooting first, or should Hayden in be in ROTJ Ghost Scene.  I could watch the OOT, another fan could watch the SE, and we could live happily ever after.  

I dont think it is sad, I think it is frustrating because this whole SE vs OOT is so unneccesary, and this could have been nipped in the bud years ago. 

Gaffer Tape said:

That makes me wonder?  Do Lucas's kids choose to be as delusional as they are towards the subject (in order to understandably defend their father), or has George been so staunch in his views brainwashing that they honestly do not know any better?  I mean, as far as I can tell, only Amanda was alive during the filming of any of the OT (just a baby during ROTJ), so they could easily just believe everything he tells them and seriously believe that Han never shot first...  I'm not entirely sure how THAT one would get by them, but still...

 I think they are just going to defend their dad on anything, despite whether it is factual or not.  One on hand, I can totally understand their loyalty to their dad, because it is their dad!  I am just suprised that she is getting into the mudslinging on the internet with the fans, and is that in-tune to what the SW fan-boys have problems with.

I figured the Lucas family would be living in a bubble and wouldn't really get 'into it' with the fans.  But she seems to be defending her father (which is fine), but then baiting the fans ('The Complainers will complain, and then they will buy it")  There was no need for that comment, because in a sense you are stooping down to the level of the same people you despise.

Which makes perfect sense now of why we got the GOUT. 

ray_afraid said:

 

I don't think people roll their eyes at the prequels as much as they accept them. At least that's my observation from talking to people about it. Clone Wars is very popular, and unlike the kiddie Ewoks cartoons in the 80's, it's strengthening peoples view of the prequels and this current era of Star Wars. I really don't know much about what people on the net are saying as this is the only Star Wars site I visit and I realize that we are a very small sect of unusual fans, but the majority of people that I talk to about it all seem to feel that nothing has changed and Star Wars has always been hokey kiddie stuff and the new stuff is just as good or bad as the original or even better. I hope I'm wrong!

 Ray, I have never met a person over the age of 12 years old that really likes the PT.  In fact, I have been saying for years, I would love to meet a person over the age of 12 years old who defends the PT.

EVERYONE I have talked to has the pretty much the same view of the PT, they have their moments, but aren't as good as the OT.  Now as I said, I'm sure there are fans that can enjoy the movies the same way I enjoy Rocky IV, but I would never say that the movie is even 1/2 as good as Rocky I. 

I always believed that the fans on the internet who defend the PT are doing it to make it seem legit.  The reason I say this is because I would talk to many of the TFN PT Gushers off the record to get their true opinions.  Many of them would admit that the PT wasn't as great as the OT, but they  were tired of the bashers bashing Lucas, and felt they had to defend the guy.

ray_afraid said:

ray_afraid said:

 

This is very interesting. But here's something to be considered- none of the sequels to those films were popular- much less top grossing films. With the  exception of the Rocky flicks, they were mostly over looked and forgotten within a decade. This isn't the case with the Star Wars prequels which still have a very strong following. I'm really afraid Star Wars will be "kiddie movies" for the rest of time.

I realize I'm one of the most ignored people on the boards, but I'd like to hear someones opinion on this. Anyone agree? Disagree?

 Ray, sequels/prequels will always be looked at differently by a diehard fan then the casual fan.  For instance, I love the Rocky Series, and think Rocky I is the best, but I enjoy II, III, IV just as much even though IV is bordering on ridiculous.   If you asked the casual fan, they will say Rocky I is the only truly movie that is memorable.  So just because I enjoy the sequels (except V) doesn't demean the original movie among the masses.

As for what you hear on the internet from PT or OOT fans it is all jibberish, as the internet is a small % of all SW fans.  So whatever TFN or OT.com say, I don't take it as a true representation of what the fanbase is thinking. 

I enjoy coming here because you guys care about the OOT as much as I do, but I got news for you most of my friends are what I call "SW moderates.":

-Love the OOT, but can live with the SE

-Thought the PT was OK, went to see them opening weekend, still think they are inferior to the OT.

-Will probably buy the BluRay Saga Set (depending on if they own a BluRay player,)

-Would love if the OOT was included, but not a deal breaker.

-Havent thought of SW that much anymore, and just enjoy the OT movies when their on Spike and  enjoy watching them once in a while on DVD.

BloodnoseThePirate said:

CO said:

 Mr. Lucas or her father.

That was a low blow, man.

 I didn't even know I wrote that?  I have to change it.

No message

Alexrd said:

 

I wouldn't write such a soft reply if someone said the same thing about me and my father.

 Why would Ms. Lucas care what a small minority of SW fans think?  The internet is about 1% of the SW fanbase, and she is essentially talking to the fans here at OT.com.

What she doesn't understand is 99% don't hate her father, and don't even think about SW anymore and moved on.  All of my friends who are SW fans, have never posted on a SW board.  They love the OOT, don't like the PT or SE, but have no hatred towards Ms. Lucas or her father.

If I were her, I wouldn't have responded, and not get into the mudslinging that pervades the internet.

Oh god, what has happened to our beloved SW fanbase.....