C3PX

Vaderisnothayden said:

Akwat Kbrana said:

A. 1983

Moreover, as has been pointed out many times before, the multi-planet celebration sequence - while visually impressive and fun to watch (apart from the Naboo & Gungan part, that is) - ultimately makes no sense. Really, George? The Death Star just blew up mere minutes ago, and planets all across the galaxy are simultaneously setting off fireworks and rejoicing en mass? Really?? You're implying that the whole conflict is over instantly? Just based on the fact that one battlestation was destroyed and one despot was killed? Really??

Except the conflict being over instantly was implied by the ending of the original ROTJ and was in the novelization ("The empire was dead. Long live the alliance.") The SE introduced nothing new there, just made it all the more clear.

I don't see that implication in the 83 version of the film at all. To me it comes off bright and clear that a land mark battle was won, but nothing more. Unless there was some line in the film to suggest that the entire bloody fleet was flocked around Endor along with all of the Imperial forces, and if that were the case, what a bunch of dumb shits for going after the Death Star instead of flying into the Imperial city and taking it over while they are all off on their Endorian picnic. The fact that there are still Star Destroyers out there kind of makes it hard for me to agree with you one about it being implied in the original. And I believe in another thread you called the ROTS novelization EU, I wouldn't disagree with you on that, but I'd only have to assume you'd consider the ROTJ novelization EU as well. Which I do. The line "the empire was dead. Long live the alliance" is a rather poorly thought out line too, considering you wouldn't need the Rebel Alliance to live long, since their purpose was served.

This is either the third or fourth thread this debate has made it into up until now. It is kind of a pointless debate, I see no sign of either side swaying in the least. However, I will tell you that if you'd like to convince us, we are going to need some cold hard evidence of your claim that it is implied in the 1983 version of the film. And by cold hard evidence, I do not mean things like, "it is an illogical fantasy story, and instantly ending the Empire is illogical, therefore that was the original intention" or "clearly they are celebrating as hard as they are because they won the entire war, had it just been a mere battle they won, it would be a much smaller party..."

I wasn't trying to show the historical inaccuracies of your parallel, obviously it was hypothetical. I thought it was funny you used an example of a work of art by the very guy Axia quoted as a means of bringing down his point. As well as a work of art where that quote was very applicable. It was more of an advanced rebuttle to the possibility that someone might point that out, showing how those points would be irrelevant and that your point still stands up rather well.

Akwat Kbrana said:

If Leonardo Da Vinci had come back thirty years after the unveiling of the Mona Lisa and crudely added a blue handlebar moustache and goatee, thus indelibly rendering the original inaccessible, it would be a travesty. Perhaps a few art lovers would cry out in infuriated protestation, and perhaps Da Vinci would reply, "Ah, but art it never finished, only abandoned. This is closer to my original vision than the old version." This would do little to allay the fury of those who wish to pay their respects to the original masterpiece, for it is neither an explanation nor an excuse, but a flimsy (and rather conceited) dismissal of the peoples' concern.

Actually, Mona Lisa is a prime example of Da Vinci's "Art is never finished, only abandoned" philosophy. He carried the thing around with him for years, abandoned it for a few, then came back to it and "finished" it shortly before he died, though perhaps he himself would not have considered it finished at the time. I am not even sure if he ever personally unveiled it himself. It also never became popular or even widely known until several hunred years after Da Vinci's death.

But, you have a good point in offering a work of art that, regardless of who legally owns it, very much belongs to the people. It is something we have looked at in awe for years. It has a history behind it. We've learned about it in elementary school, high school, and university, some of us have even seen it up close in person. It is one of the few works of art that has the distinction of being immediately recognizable by anyone with any kind of an education within the western world. Though it has undergone plenty of vandalism and touch ups over the last hundred years, any true alterations to it would be quite unforgivable.

Star Wars, while very different, shares some things in common with the Mona Lisa in that it is a well known popular piece of art. It was unveiled in 1977 and instantly became a favorite. People fell in love with it, grew up with it, came to know it rather intimately. It was in the eye of the public for twenty years. Much like the Mona Lisa, during this time it had become a property of the public, regardless of the fact GL owns full legal rights to it. Is it s bold statement to say it belonged to the public? Absolutely not! Who owns the rights to it is a mere legality. There are some things the law has absolutely no reign over. In twenty years time it has become a part of so many people's lives and childhoods. They watched it over and over, memorized it, reenacted it, through there money into buying likenesses of the characters. Star Wars very much belongs to the public, not in a legal sense, but in a real sense. Twenty years.

It is nothing short of a crime to come along over twenty years later and say that film no longer exists simply because you own the legal rights to it.

AxiaEuxine said:

 ah but art is never finished, only abandoned.

As a bit of an artist myself, and even more so as a fan of the arts, I can say with complete and utter conviction that line is pure bullfuck!

Sorry Da Vinci...

TMBTM said:

"Free-dom! We got freeeee-dom!

Celebrate the looooooove!"

lol, .... I don't think the world is ready to know. We must keep it secret, at all cost.

You can say that again!

Ah, thank you for explaining.

I always thought the intention with the garggled out "No" was that the vision was fading, or the connection with the netherworld was a bit weak due to peak times or something. Or that it was a really tormented and painfilled "no" as Qui-Gon is experiencing Anakin giving in to the darkside.

It was obvious the line was recycled, but I felt it was one of the better moments (or to be frank, one of the only decent moments) in the whole film.

Gaffer Tape said:

If I had the original versions in good quality, I would never plunk down money for any new-fangled version, nor would I support any other change whatsoever.  I already own more copies of this trilogy than any other movie ever.

Might as well quote Gaffer for my answer, as I couldn't possibly have said it any better myself.

However, if we got all three movies released in Blade Runner like sets packed with extras and featuring all three major versions of each film, I might consider it, but at this point, I'd probably even give that the pass and be contented with the barebones version and a little extra money in my pocket.

I am with Octocrox on this one, I think this also accounts for the flipped audio channels on the 04 DVDs, As MCQuarrie's art seems to indicate a world in which the audio should be entirely screwed up. I knew LFL would never lie to us, they were all intentially made creative decisions in order to bring the films closer to Ralphs artwork.

Good, glad I am not the only one who sees a huge difference between the two.

When I first saw the SE in 1997, I remember the new ending really hit me. It just felt so right. The music was happy, but sad at the same time. Which to me, fit the whole idea of the end of a huge battle where many friends were lost, a bittersweet moment.

Since then, I have come to dislike the SE greatly, and don't want to have anything to do with it, expect for that one scene. I still felt the music was a vast improvement over Yub Nub. 

However... just now I watched that youtube clip of the 2004 ending, and was blown away by how amazingly, mind boggling awful it was. Then I went back and checked out the 1997 version, and thought it was brilliant. Other than the obvious changes, I can't pin down a difference between the two, but the 1997 version just really works for me while the 2004 irks the crap out of me. Just rewatched the 83 version too, and still feel Yub Nub is total shit (except when Craig Kilborn* sings it, then it is the shit!). 

So, B for me.

Also, is it just me, or is the appearance of Naboo just one too many planets? I think we need a shot of Hoth, with two or three wampas feeding on a tauntaun carcass, blood smeared all over their faces, followed by a shot of Alderan's debree field. Hope these scenes get included in the SE 3.0, I think they'll add a much needed sense of completeness to the ending of ROTJ.

*Craig Kilborn version found here ---> http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/03/yub_nub.html

Incidentally, the link also includes an English translation of Yub Nub, something I had no idea existed. Pretty crazy stuff. Some really weird stuff happened to my brain while reading them. Now that I know the words to the song, I realize how unbelieveable powerful it is, and see why it is necessary that this remains the true ending to the Star Wars trilogy. In fact, realizing I have gone my entire life without ever reading these lyrics, and not knowing them by heart, I no longer feel worthy to call myself a Star Wars fan, and will therefore be leaving ot.com forever. Farewell guys.

A Tusken raider calling out Anakin's name??

Hmm, how odd would it be to find an injured man crawling along on the road, then realizing it is Liam freakin' Neeson.

"Liam Neeson? Muy muy I loove you!!! You were awesome as Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menance! That fight with Darth Maul, Briiiiiiilant stuff!!! You were so--"

"Just get me to a hospital!"

My feeling is that anyone who has some deep seated hatred of Fett, only does so because they realize they will never be as cool as him.

"The original ewok celebration music was fun- it reminded be a bit of the cantina music from SW."

Interesting, just the other day I was thinking how interesting the original celebration scene would be with the cantina music instead of Yub Nub. 

I can't really point to anything particularly bad about it. So, what I will do is give you a full out lecture on exactly why it is such an awful thing for him to say. So, make yourself comfortable, sharpen your pencil, and turn over a fresh page in your note book. Here we go,

I guess to see its biggest problem, we need to go back to the source. We meet this fellow Boba Fett, yeah some people think he is over rated, but most of us think he is freakin awesome. Why, what does he do? What makes him so great? Just a dumb guy in armor! Well, the cool thing about him is he pops up on the screen and totally ruins the lives of our heroes in an amazingly short amount of time. The movie was going along just fine, Luke is learning to be a Jedi with Yoda, Han and Leia and making a desperate flee from the Empire, and Han's genius seems to be getting them out of trouble just fine. They'll simply float away with all the rest of the garbage, meet Han's friend, get the ship fixed, and meet back up with the rest of the Rebels before the movie ends.

But no. Boba freakin' Fett shows up, and it all goes down the crapper! Fett informs the Imperials of the Falcon's destination and they beat them there. Now Han and Leia are screwed! Luke quits his Jedi training to go unscrew them, leaving a peeved Yoda behind; Threepio is blown to pieces; Luke looses his freakin hand! Han is frozen and heading for Jabba the Hutt. The credits roll. The movie ends and we are left dumbfounded, begging our parents "When does the next movie come out? When does the next movie come out? Don't tell us we have to wait a whole month? More than a month? Could be a few years! What?! You're just messing with me! It comes out next week, right? Right? Right...? What? No! No! Noooooooooo! This is stupid! What happened to Han?!!! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! (we are talking about inner turmoil here so great that it echos on for miles) To some of us, this was the most disappointment we had ever experienced in our young lives, to others of us, it was just one more disappointment amongst many. Either way, it really sucked. Why did this happen? Who did this awful thing to us? Well, honestly, if we look back we can peg the blame on one person: Boba Fett. Vader proved unable to capture them on his own, so it isn't his fault. Billy D. couldn't have betrayed Han had the Empire not gotten there first. No, it is all because of Fett.

You see, Boba Fett shows up and causes all this chaos, not only in the lives of the fictional characters in the movie, but also in our own childhood SW lovin' lives. What is more? He does it all while uttering only four lines of dialog! 27 words total to be exact!

So yeah, don't give me some dork with an annoying accent saying long meaningless lines like, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe" (13 freakin' words of nothing in that one sentence alone!) while proving himself to be a pretty worthless fighter and wreaking absolutely no havoc all the while and you tell me this is suppose to be Boba Fett's father? The man who taught him and was responsible for his becoming a bounty hunter...  sigh.

Or, if you rather, skip the lecture and I can put it quite simply: what kind of a tough, hardened warrior runs around clean shaven saying thing like, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe"?

Wow, that line made me want to punch Jango and say, "You stupid bitch, get the hell out of this film! You don't belong here! Get lost you giant turd and take your accent with you!"

I am going to look for logic though, because I want a bit of logic in all things. So Darth Vader can choke people without even touching them, where is the logic? Well, it is explained that he taps into a magical energy known as the force. That is good enough for me.

Most things in Star Wars had some kind of logic behind it, why should logic suddenly go out the window as soon as the Emporer dies?

(I agree, the Ewoks defeating the Imperials with sticks and stones was no logical, and it has always bothered me. But the Rebels are out there fighting too, so it can be reasoned that the Ewoks were more of a distraction than anything. Ultimately, the whole Ewok battle is a very minor part of the whole trilogy. The Han rescue was the other bit of the that was devoid of logic.)

I consider the logical lapses of ROTJ to be a major black mark on the trilogy. I'd like to assume the Imperial fleet simple retreated when they realized the Executor and the Death Star were lost. That would be a perfectly logical thing to do. No sense in waiting around to be dealt more damage. Why impose more illogical nonsense on the poor film by making assumptions when the end is left pretty vague?

I also don't believe the film needed a happy ending where the Empire was entirely defeated. The other two films didn't end that way. Movies about war can still end on a happy note even if the war doesn't end with the film.

Maybe so, hell, I'd probably even prefer that over the original. But I'd still like to have it preserved where I can compare them side by side. If I can't have both, I'd rather have it the way it was originally experienced by the audience.

I am one of those weird anal types who like to watch their old movies in black and white. This boggles most peoples minds. They seem to think, why see it in black and white when color is an obvious improvement. Well, to me it isn't an obvious improvement, and even if it were, there is something in me that makes me want to experience things the way they were experienced by their original audience.

Same reason I always watch foreign movies in the original language and read the titles no matter how good the English dub is.

lordjedi said:

EDIT: Perhaps I shouldn't say I'm totally fine with evil corporate execs.  I'm not totally fine with them, but I'm not about to ask the government to stop them or bail them out. 

I agree. I am not completely fine with them either, but they are most certainly the lesser of two evils here. It is like throwing a mean vicous dog in your backyard to keep the cats out. Great, no more cat problem, but what the hell are you going to do about this huge dog that growls and nips at you everytime you consider going into your backyard? I'd rather have the cats.

Vaderisnothayden said:

You weren't outnumbered. But you admitted you were mistaken and claimed to see my point of view.

The Libyans! Oh, my god, they found me, I don't know how, but they found me. RUN FOR IT MARTY!

Vaderisnothayden said:

Watching it again now. Having fun laughing at it. The worst thing about the romance is that Annie and Padme come off utterly moronic, like they haven't a brain cell between them.

Have you seen it with the Rifftrax commentary? Definitely worth paying for the mp3. Too me, Ep. 2 really isn't funny enough on its own to laugh at. It is so far beyond awful, I find my self in a fetal possition in the corner of the room sobbing at the mere mention of the name of that film. The rifftrax bit is like having someone hold my hand and whisper in my ear that everything is going to be okay, it is just a poorly made commedy somewhat based off of Star Wars and that it is okay to laugh at it. Those rifftrax are great coping tools. Eventually they will have one for all six movies (SEs of course) and the HS.

I agree. What the hell? Is there supposedly some group of SW fans out there begging the flanneled one not to release the originals on DVD in watchable form?

OBVIOUSLY, film makers can't go about taking votes to see who wants what more than what and what decisions ensure the most pleased fans. This is pretty dumb. No one is saying any such thing.

Lucas can do whatever he wants to Star Wars, but not releasing a respectable DVD version of the films that started it all is quite an ass thing to do.

I'd also add in there that I would have liked a series of prequels that were somewhat bearable, but since the majority of die hard fans are perfectly happy indulging in such ludicrousness, and seem to somehow find them rather awesome, seems he made the right decision on those, and I can't judge him too harshly on that.

Just give us the damn OOT in a quality where it can be enjoyed on modern equipment (admittedly, the GOUT looks pretty freakin sweet on my old 13'' TV, but that just isn't going to cut it for most fans), and I won't give a rats ass about anything else SW ever again. The Polls are in, the other side has won, I am cool with that. I just want my meager three movies.

The Problem with George Lucas... is he wears too much flannel. There are convincing scientific studies out there that suggest inhaling too many flannel particles can cause a considerable degree of brain damage. Further studies seem to indicate that it is the creative section of the brain that is most effected by long term flannel inhalation. Considering this guy is constantly wearing the flannel, it is reasonable to assume the quantity of flannel he has inhaled over the years is quite sizable.

skyjedi2005 said:

The classic ocpmovie edition was just plain bad on all levels, i'm referring of course to the dual layer version the 2.0.

Yeah, I know. I went through great effort to get my hands on the single layer version before 2.0 came out. That thing was being hit with rave reviews. I read post after post about how it was the most amazing thing and was essentially the original on DVD in restored quality. I sat down to watch the thing, and made it to the Mos Eisley scene before turning it off and throwing the disc away. I couldn't get my TV brightness adjusted to the point where I could not see all the seams showing where the LD footage had been pasted onto the DVD footage. E for effort though.

OCPmovie's Deleted Magic was pretty cool though, got to give him credit for that.

Just to be clear, I am agreeing with you, warwon. I think it is dumb. And while I was not a huge fan of the trilogy ending with a song that includes the words, "Yub nub" and "celebrate the love", I am even less fond of the ridiculousness of the abrupt end to the Galactic Empire just because their decrepit old leader bites the dust. Surely they had some plan in motion in the event of his death. Even a Sith Lord has to die sometime.

However, in the previous discussion, I was out numbered by those who thought the EU was crap and Star Wars worked better featuring The Amazing Instantaneous Crumbling Empire® (just kill the Emporer and add water and have your very own crumbling empire in mere seconds! Adult supervision required.)

We had this discussion indepth very recently. The conclusion was that the timeline you are refering to is EU, and that Star Wars, being intentionally an idealistic, fake, imaginary, fairy tale like setting, it is more than reasonable that the Empire crumbled instantaniously once their super weapon and leader had been lost. Also, apparently, 1980's EU supports the idea that the entire Galactic Empire came to an end the instant a singular man (their Emperor) was killed. If only the Rebels had known it worked like that, they could have sent several agents to infiltrate the Imperial City and take whatever actions necessary to kill Palpatine.

Rebel Agent one: Alright, jobs done. The Emperor is dead. I poisoned his steak, lol.

Rebel Agent two: Whooohoo! Job well done.

Rebel Agent one: Oh f***ing hell! Stormtroopers! We're so f***ed! What are we going to do?

Rebel Agent two: I don't know, looks like this is the end, pal. It has been a pleasure working with you... 

Stormtrooper Squad Commander: Hold it right there Rebel scum!

Stormtrooper Cadet: Look sir! The Emperor!

Stormtrooper Medic: We're too late. He's dead.

Stormtrooper Squad Commander: Dammit! (drops gun, rips off helmet and throw it in anger, kicks gun across room) Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! It's over! It's all over! We failed! We failed the Emperor! We failed the Empire! We failed the dream of unity, hardship, and war throughout the galaxy! May our children forgive us. Dammit! (Angrily walks out the door in defeat, peeling off his armor and throwing it in anger, piece by piece. Slowing, an entire squad of disheartened Stormtroopers begin taking off their own armor, revealing heart broken faces as they slowly turn and walk away from their fallen leader.)

Rebel agent one: What... the... f***?!

Glad Ady is wise enough to pay crap like this no heed. I don't think some people appreciate exactly how much time and effort this man puts into his work. And then here we are, like a bunch of little kids with grubby hands jumping up and down around his knees. Give me a bite of your sandwich Adywan! Give me a bite of your sandwich! Pleeeeasse!!! Please! Please! Please! Please! And don't forget to put pickles on it Adywan. And leave off the tomato and the lettice or you'll RUIN it for me. Oh, and make sure you put a ton of mayonase on it, because I love me my mayo and your sandwich will be worthless without it...

Let the man make his sandwich in peace. If he lets you have a bite of it when he is done, then consider yourself lucky. If you don't like the things the man is dressing his sandwich with, then bugger off and go pester some other poor fellow. Or better yet, make your own damn sandwich.

To Axia, I know you think making your own edit will be really hard, but I'd encourage you to give it a try. If for no other reason than to learn to appreciate all that is required in doing one. ADigitalMan has a fantastic, easy to understand, and not to involved how-to in the how-to section on using Womble to make an edit. Just download Womble (free, fully functional 30 day trial) and some program to rip your DVD to your hard drive, and you could be on your way to making your very own edit in just a matter of minutes (Literally, you could go from beginning to read ADM's how-to, to actually editing your movie in less than 1 hour). It isn't the software you'll want to use when making a serious fanedit, but it is a good place to start for getting the feel for fanediting.

^That doesn't surprise me in the least.