C3PX

DarkFather said:

That obviously changed. And it's one of those changes that can actually be explained.

Dude, seriously, what change can't be explained? You can use silly asinine fanboy explanations like "50 year old Obi-Wan looks 70 because he has had a few stressful years in retirement..." to literally shrug off every dumb continuity muck-up George made.

Might as well say, "I refuse to accept that the PT cannot logically be reconciled with the OT, therefore I shall put my brain in park, and everything will make perfect sense."

One thing I have always liked about the EU, was being able to revisit the SW galaxy. For someone as obsessed with SW as I was during my childhood and up into my teens, three movies just wasn't enough. It was great to get to revisit the SW galaxy, to read further adventures of Luke and his friends. And even more fun for me, was seeing the galaxy from other perspectives, not just "Rebel vs Empire" from the films. Another great thing about the EU, is you can take it or leave it. There is such a massive amount of it, you inevitably end up with a lot of crap getting mixed in. In fact I'd say the vast majority of it is crap, but you don't have the read the parts you don't care for.

I have to agree, it is lame when they bring characters back from the dead. I hated Dark Empire and the clone Emperors. Of course, the idea of it is perfectly reasonable, when you consider the ability to clone exists. I suppose you can say that the only thing less likely than Palpatine making clones of himself, would be Palpatine not making clones of himself. Still, as a principal, I am against reviving main villians. Takes away from having killed them in the first place, and really cheapens the story.

Boba Fett's resurrection is less irksome to me,since we never actually see him die. The guy does have a jet pack on after all, if he falls into a pit, why the hell wouldn't he try to blast his way out? He also has a blaster and spiked boots, and who knows what other tools on him. Threepio clearly explained that it is a slow death.

I actually enjoyed books like Tales of the Bounty Hunters and  Tales from Mos Eisly. I know a lot of fans absolutely loathe things like this, because it takes every background character and gives them a name and a back story. To each their own, but it is actually kind of fun to read about what the four eyed fuzzy white guy and the short mouse alien were doing a few weeks before showing up in the Cantina the day Luke's aunt and uncle died. Most people say, "Why, what is the point? It is ridiculous!" well, I say, "Why not?" Personally, I'd rather read the adventures of the weird Werewolf guy and his small place in the vast universe, than constantly reread the storys of a handful of larger than life characters who are constantly saving the universe from impending doom. Honestly, most of these "tales of" stories are pretty worthless, unentertaining crap, but a few of them are enjoyable and lets you see the vast galaxy from the perspective of your average joe, as it were.

Two stories in the Tales of the Jedi that particularly stood out to me were the stories of Boba Fett and IG-88. I liked how the writer made Fett into a sort of Rorschach (now that most people here knows who that is) like character, with a strong sense of justice and who feels he has the right to bring judgment and violent death on those he finds unjust, only he does it for money, refusing to take jobs on people he finds inocent or not worthy of such a punishment, and taking great joy in eliminating the true scum of the galaxy. The first chapter describes Fett as an ugly young man, a soldier in the military, now in prison for having murdered his commanding officer, when ask if he regrets it, he replies with a very stern "no" because the guy deserved death. Makes Fett to be kind of a psychotic, but I liked that spin on his character.

The story of IG-88 was a lot of fun to. Very Terminatoresque as the books starts off with he becomming selfaware, and killing the people who were building him. He makes a lot of copies of himself, and they all work together in plotting galactic domination. A few of the copies are sent out to do bounty hunting, can't remember exactly why. Eventually in the story, IG-88 plants his conciousness into the Death Star II, and now has essentially become the DSII and is waiting for the Empire to wipe out the Rebels and get them out of the way, before he himself defeats the weakened Empire and makes his first move in conquering the galaxy. Unfortunately, against all odds the Rebels win, and ruin the poor guys plans. What a bunch of tripe! Right? Sure it is, but it is a lot of fun to read too! I certainly don't watch ROTJ thinking, "IG-88 has completely taken over the DSII's computer systems by this time" no, I don't consider any of it as a real part of the story at all, but it is very amusing, and that is what it is all about anyway.

It is already out. It is shit.

Yeah, with all the prequel talk I have been hearing, that seems to be the plan. But to me, it is a lame plan. There are plenty of boring super hero stories, Watchmen was made to be something unique, not just another generic super hero story.

Watchmen prequels/sequels, video games and everything else are kind of missing that point and trying to reduce it to being what it has always been so great for not being.

No, darkfather, you are wrong. What the hell is wrong with you? They are HIS films! Now STFU and like them, or you have no right to call yourself a Star Wars fan!

Hehehe, that is kind of fun. I definitely see the appeal in being a total asshole and going around with that kind of attitude. George Lucas is awwsome! I love every last hair on his body, he is sooo sexy and such a great story teller! Episode II rocked!!! It was the best movie EVER, only shadowed by Episode III and the animated Clone Wars movie!

... okay, uh... I need to go take a shower now or something... I feel dirty...

If you don't feel like spending ten bucks on buying the graphic novel, I bet your public library has the thing, it has been around a while and is pretty common. Alternatively... there is always the deep dark depths of the internets...

You'll get plenty more Rorschach in the graphic novel.

Octorox said:

There was likely a reason for not putting it in the movie.

Yeah, like the guy who came up with those ideas lost his touch an decided he could come up with more insanely amazing ideas, like Gungans, and... never mind, I don't want to get started on this...

Besides, they are George's movies, he single handedly created, wrote, and directed all six films*. That George, what a guy!

* Just for those who don't know any better, this statement is entirely false. He only directed four of the six, and three of those are, in many peoples estimations, not all that great. He didn't write Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi by himself either. Regardless of these minor fact, they are still his damn movies and he can do whatever he wants with them, screw Lawrence Kasdan, Leigh Brackett, Irvin Kershner, and Richard Marquand! Typically the idiots who use the line, "They're HIS movies HE can do WHATEVER he wants with them!!!" have never even heard of thses people, or if they have, are unclear on their role in the grand scheme of things. And they are only a handful of essential figures in creation of the Star Wars saga whose names are not "George".

I think the characters are one level on which Watchmen doesn't work so great as a film. The story is more about ideas than characters, if that makes anysense.

Erik, since you liked the movie so much, I'd highly recommend checking out the graphic novel. I am honestly not a huge comic book guy, haven't really been into them since I was a teenager, but Watchmen is one I find myself coming back to even in adulthood, and I find it enjoyable page after page, no matter how many times I read it. The film followed the comic very closely, but reading it would really add a lot more depth to the film for you.

I think this is why they decided to go back so far for Star Trek: Enterprise, rather than doing something like a pre-Cage NCC-1701, because they didn't want to have to worry about messing with pre-established characters, vessels and events. By going back so far, they avoided, for the most part, exactly what we see going wrong npw. Had Enterprise been with April or Pike's crew, we'd be saying that the Enterprise looks nothing like the one from the cafe and so on.

This is a reboot, that essentially lacks the balls to take itself as a reboot. Some sort of separation anxiety perhaps? Afraid to let go of the hand of pre-existing Trek and fly on its own. That doesn't bode well for it. Superman Returns was the last reboot I can remember that couldn't quite bring itself to let go of pre-existing canon and truely start over, and the end result was a disaster to say the least.

I am really looking forward to the extended version to see what all can be done with this. One thing I would most certainly like to see changed would be for Rorschach's death to remain unseen by Dan. I liked the idea that Rorschach, the very narrarator of the story and the one who never gave up on what he believed in, dies without anybody even knowing about it. He begs John to kill him, and John does, then leaves and nobody ever knows what happened. Dan just happening upon the scene and witnessing it, then giving a cliched preformance by dropping to his knees and letting out a good "Noooooooo!" didn't feel necessary, and took a great deal away from Rorschach's tragic end.

Octorox said:

http://www.robotchicken.org/index.php?title=The_Rebels_Won

Wow, that is almost exactly the same discussion Vaderisnohayden and I had... only ours didn't end with going to get massages.

That is a great clip by the way, thanks for posting it.

^ Exactly. The whole idea goes nowhere and makes no point. It is almost kind of a childish sort of retort along the lines of, "Oh yeah... well, its my toy and I can do whatever I want with it! So there!" (sticks out tongue).

To anyone who feel the "Oh yeah? Well there George's movies and he can do anything he likes with them and you'll have to like it or... or... or else your a big poopoo head!" is reasonable, then I would like to point you in the direction of Jorge's Famous Three Layered Cake, only I can't because I seem to have forgotton where I posted it, and I don't feel like searching it out.

!!!SPOILERS THROUGHOUT!!!

Just read IGN's review for Watchmen, and I think the guy had some pretty good insights.

He mentioned that the new ending passes by without really giving us a feel for the destruction, rather than seeing bodies in the streets, which a R rated movie could certainly do a lot with, we just see a few people get vaporized, which is something we have been seeing through the entire film. Where as in the graphic novel, we are really shown the gravity of what has taken place, and what a severe crime Veidt has commited. 

Another thing the reviewer brought up was how, in his estimation, the new ending simply doesn't make much sense when you think about it. I thought a bit of this myself, but he really summed it up nicely. If you consider the fact that Dr. Manhattan was America's most powerful weapon that the rest of the world was afraid the US would use against them, and with the world being on the brink of nuclear war, if said US weapon were to suddenly be deployed and destroy several cities around the world, it would stand to reason that these other countries, rather than coming together in piece, would decide to strike back. It would almost be like us bombing a bunch of countries today with ICBMs and saying, "Oh my goodness! Our weapons attacked you with their own free will! We are so sorry, but you know what, they might do it again, let's ban together as one to fight this new common enemy that just so happens to be our very own weapons."

I still think the idea of a fake alien invasion worked a lot better. Everyone says it is very unrealistic, I suppose those readers somehow missed Dr. Manhattan during their read through of the series, he is certainly not the most realistic thing I have ever read in a comic book. With the faux alien invasion, we had the world come together to fight off an external and unknown foe. That makes sense, while these countries are bickering, some extraterrestrial force is out there plotting the destruction of the whole planet, why not come together to see what can be done to prevent this. 

With Dr. Manhattan, everyone knows he is indestructible. Why even bother fighting against him, or trying to find a way to stop him? What good would coming together do? He'll win. That is why Adrian took so much care in getting him to go away prior to executing his plan.

I'd really like to hear from the perspective of someone who had never read the book prior to seeing the film. The film ending just had no real impact or emotion to it to me, when I first read the graphic novel there was a big "Whoa!!!" moment for me. I am really curious if people who knew nothing of the story came out of the theater with that "Whoa" feeling many people got from the book.

TheDoctor1987 said:

i would have loved it if the prequels were directed by some one else but it just wouldn't feel like Star Wars to me if they were i mean after all Star Wars is George's creation and his alone to do what ever he may please with it. 

Which is exactly why The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi don't feel like Star Wars to you?

As for George's creation to do whatever he pleases with, yeah, that one never gets old.

Vaderisnohayden, this conversation is not worth wasting so much time on. We could go on forever. Obviously I am wrong. I was very young when ROTJ came out, and I obviously misunderstood it, and honestly, who can blame me since it was an unfinished version of the film I grew up with. George's original vision all along was to shows the entire galaxy celebrating the end of the Empire, but it simply wasn't possibly due to technology limitation of the eighties.

I get where you are coming from, and understand what you are saying. I concede that you are right, I am sure that was George's original intention to have the Empire be 100% finished at that point, the story is just a hell of a lot more interesting to me if this isn't the case. Just as Star Wars is a lot more interesting to you if Hayden is not Darth Vader.

Vaderisnothayden said:

I'm not 100% sure I agree. They're celebrating, and really happy, but they celebrated and were happy at the end of 'Star Wars' also.

The celebration at the end of Star Wars was of a different kind with a different tone. The ROTJ celebration was an end-of-the-war it's-all-over we-don't-have-to-worry-about-the-future kind of celebration.

In other words, it was just like an Obama supporter's "Yes We Did!" victory party. The next day they wake up, take a look around, down a few pills for their hang over, and say, "What the fu... the stock market is still down? I don't get it? What went wrong?" Only in this case, they wake up next morning, down a few pills for there hang over, and realize, "My goodness, seems the Empire is still around! What do ya have to do to get rid of a damn Empire around here?"

Either way, this argument is going on for a humorously long period of time. Since nobody Vaderisnohayden knew back in the eighties felt that there was a slim possibility of the Empire surviving such a loss, the rest of us who were around in the eighties are obviously wrong. Besides, Marvel comics and the guy they commissioned to write the novel say so too.

Essentially, Star Wars had the same, "good guys win, bad guys lose, and they all live happily ever after kind of ending to it. At the time it was filmed, a sequel was uncertain, had that been the first and last Star Wars film, we very well could be having the exact same argument now. They threw all their forces into it, a do or die last ditch effort, had they lost the Rebellion would have been finished and the Empire unstoppable. They destroy the Death Star along with the great Grand Moff Tarkin, the Empire is no doubt in a great deal of trouble, in the supposedly illogical and overly simplistic universe of Star Wars, it is very likely that it couldn't possibly go on after such a defeat...

I am not saying the end of ROTJ was beyond a doubt not the end of the Empire, I am just saying it was left open enough where it could have gone either way, it never felt like it was written in stone. Obviously, with the SE, George indicates that he intended it to be the immediate end of the Empire, but George intended a lot of faggy things. He also approved and made lots money off of many books that contradicted his intentions of a magical spontaniously ending Empire. 

Personally, I'd prefer to go with the more reasonable idea that it didn't end there, just as I personally like to remember a Sarlacc that looked like a giant snatch rather than a Venus fly trap, a Luke who falls to his presumed death without screaming like a pansy, a Threepio that was part of an assembly line rathet than build by a nine year old, and a wise old sage-like Yoda who doesn't spaz out and do crazy acrobatics and fight with a half length lightsaber.

Yeah, I have considered that too. It was at first my excuse for things going so badly, as Terminator has always been a hunter vs. prey story. But actually, while the dynamic changes without a hunter, there is still a lot of stuff going on, so the show doesn't have to suck just because they are not on the run. Good writters could make it work, instead they are jacking off and trying to figure out how to complete with Lost in the out of order story telling and bizare mysteries departments. It just doesn't work well that way as a show. Linear episodes like Friday's episode is the way to go, it simply works, no reason to mess with it.

Gaffer Tape said:

CO said:

I think what character you loved said alot about what SW movie was your favorite.  As a kid, I wanted to be Luke Skywalker, he was me, and I related to him, so essentially SW was my favorite movie, and ROTJ was a close second. 

As I got older I realized how f-n cool Han Solo was, and in that time I realized how great ESB was.  But my friends growing up who loved Han Solo more then Luke were bigger fans of ESB then I was back in 1980.

 

 

Really?  Cause Luke's always been my favorite too.  I thought Luke had quite a lot to do as a character in ESB, so I'm curious:  how come being a Luke fan would cause you to like the other movies more?  I suppose I'm asking, what makes the outer movies "Luke" movies to you and ESB a "Han" movie?

 

I was a Luke guy too, and I though the coolest Luke stuff was in ESB. It is also the movie that opens with him. He gets hung upside down in an ice cave, that was great. He almost gets eaten by Bigfoot (also known as the Hothian Plains Yeti, or the Wampa) He gets stuffed inside of an animal (my mom yelled at me once because I kept using the rewind button to watch Han cut open the Tauntaun over and over for almost ten minutes straight, not sure what was wrong with me, but it really freaked my mom out). Then Luke crashes on a really cool planet, meets a muppet and trains to be a super cool Jedi. Not long later, he discovers he has daddy issues, and loses his hand.

Han just spends the whole film turning tail and running, only to eventually be betrayed like a bitch by one of his old friends, then get frozen alive in a block of something, and sold to a giant slug. I think all the cool stuff happens to Luke in that movie.

Vaderisnothayden said:

I suspect that if ROTJ was less triumphant and more downery it might get more respect.

You might be right about that. I can't even remember how many times I have heard people say the movie would have been better had Han (or Lando) died at the end. Really don't see how that would improve anything though.

When I was a kid I definitely considered ROTJ as my second favorite SW film. It wasn't until I was older that I began to notice some of the silliness. The first thing that hit me as I started to get older, is how dumb it was that the Ewoks with there sticks and stones are able to beat these armed men in heavy armor. I like the idea of a small group defeating overwhelming odds using guerrilla tactics. But when you start to think about these guys in heavy armor getting knocked out (or possibly killed) by a stone being shot out of a sling, or by being beaten on with wooden sticks, it has a sort of Magical World of Disney quality to it. Like the little kid who managed to defend his house from the mofia by using suctioncup arrows and marbles or some crap like that. It is fun stuff for kids, but there is not much of a lasting appeal as you get older. 

I always loved the ROTJ space battle, and the final saber duel is one of my favorite moments from any SW film (though Vader losing his robotic hand was not near as cool as when Luke lost his real hand).

Hasbro released a Bespin Luke figure that has a removable hand. I was a bit old for action figures when it came out, but I still couldn't help but buy it. When you remove his hand, it makes a cool "pop!" sound. Love that thing. I bought a Vader with a removable hand and mask to go along with it. If I had had those things when I was a kid, I am sure I would have had hours of great fun making them mutilate each other. Closest thing to that I had as a kid was a Threepio that had arms and legs that came off, and after I used him a good bit, I couldn't get one of his legs to stay on, thing was always falling off.

Yeah, I just watched the latest episode after I wrote that post, it was a lot better than the last few.

Wow, glad to hear they plan to tie up the plot with this season. I'd hate to have this be another show ending on a cliff hanger due to cancellation. If they tie it up and it does come back for the third season, I will still be back to watch it, so long as the episodes are not as retarded and pointless as the last few.

I loved Empire Strikes Back as a kid, it was always my favorite. Not because of the dark ending, but because of the snow (always loved snow), the wampa, the asteroid field, the lightsaber fight, and Luke getting his hand cut off (that was always really cool to me. It was my favorite scene to act out, I'd tuck my arm into my sleeve, yell out "Noo, its impossible! Noooo! then run backwards with my arms held out like I was falling. Our neighbors thought I was a very odd child.

Even though I saw Empire Strikes Back before Return of the Jedi came out, I was too young to really feel the anxiety of not knowing what the next chapter had in store.

This season started off rather enjoyably, but it has reached the point of pretty awful. Too bad, I had really high hopes for this show.

We seem to have this trend of show jumping the shark in a bad way on their second season, like Heroes and now this. I imagine it will happen a lot more often as shows continue to try to rip off Lost with its mysteries and out of order story telling. It worked well for Lost, but it just doesn't work for everything. TSSC out of order story telling style often just makes it confusing and even lame, rather than cool and revolutionary (as I suppose they are aiming for).

I really thought this could take off and be a pretty good show, but they are far too focused on cheap tricks and mysteries to shock us with, rather than on telling a good story to entertain us. Stupid sleep clinic episode is a good example of a cheap trick, we are lead to believe the sleep clinic is real and the kidnapping is the dream, then they flip it and it turns out dumb Sarah got herself captured and is dreaming about being in a sleep clinic. It is a dumb idea, nonsensical and pointless, and it did nothing to drive the story forward. It is episodes like this, which are quickly becoming the norm, that are going to seal the fate of this show.

Last episode I really enjoyed was the one where they have the showdown with Chromartie in Mexico. Since then it is obvious they ran out of story, and are now just trying stuff on to see how it fits, and so far none of it has.

Hunter6 said:

Watchmen was good, but it does not mean This Star Trek film will be the same. 

Just to clarify, my comment on Watchmen being good was in response to sky's asking me if Watchmen was good in response to my saying I saw the trailer when I went to see Watchmen. I in no way feel that Watchmen being good has any bearing on Star Trek in any way, I am still certian ST will be pretty lousy.

skyjedi2005 said:

How was Watchmen, can't wait to see that movie.  When's the dvd come out?

Check out the Watchmen thead. It was good. Seriously, don't wait for the DVD, see it in the cinema, it is worth seeing on the big screen at least once.

Hunter6 said:

I would think that Star Wars Fans (like my self) could not fall for a trailer like this after the prequels.

...

Don't be fooled by This "Emo" edit trailer. 

It is amazing how a trailer can be designed to put different spins on a film. Honestly, had this trailer been the first one I saw, I'd be really excited about the movie right about now. I'd still be skeptical, but I'd be planning on spending a ticket price to see it in the theater, rather than planning to hold off on the DVD release so I can barrow it from one of my friends.

The whole time that new trailer was on the screen, I couldn't stop thinking about the line, "I like this ship... it is exciting!"

ChainsawAsh said:

Some of the non-original music (Ride of the Valkyries, Sounds of Silence and Halelujah mainly) just didn't work for me

That was another thing I thought about listing among my dislikes, but decided to let go of. A lot of it just felt out of place, didn't work so well, and in the case of Ride of the Valkyries and Halelujah, it actually turned the scenes into almost a bit of a parody of themselves. I appreciate a sense of humor on behalf of the film makers, but in these cases I think it detracted from the film.

Taolar said:

Last night it felt a little too graphically violent, but when I flipped through the graphic novel today I remembered how violent the comic really was. It's funny how getting a little older can make me more sensitive to this stuff. Also the sex scene is probably a little too explicit, since it is definitely tamer in the comic. And while I really applaud the studios for not changing Dr. Manhattan's image, there is at times a distracting amount of blue dong. This is without a doubt an R-rated movie.

Yeah, the book was violent, so I certainly expected the film to be. I went to see this at an afternoon showing, so the theater was pretty sparsly filled. As I mentioned before, mostly young white guys, but there were a few women in the theater. After some of the especially violent scenes with Rorschach, I heard quite a bit of nervous laughter and giggles in the room, especially from the women in the room. Even with such a small population in the theater, I noticed three people or so get up and leave the theater right after Rorschach's meat cleaver scene and never come back.

I liked the scene from the book where Rorschach cuffs the guy up, sets his place ablaze with him in it, and cooly walks away, better than the more graphic scene in the film. Leaving the guy to burn to death was more cruel, and almost more shocking than the meat cleaver.

I'd also have to agree with Taolar about the sex scene in Archie, it goes on forever, and is a bit too much. I am not really a prude, it is just I don't feel the need for long winded sex scenes slowing down story for the sake of showing a bit of boobage. Boobage is cheap, and in this day and age, anyone who feels the need for it knows where to find it.

And finally, I agree on the blue dong as well. I feel no need for staring at another man's bits. I too am glad they stayed true to the book, but in the book it was nowhere near as distracting as it is in the film, usually it was just a tiny blue silhouette and in a small panel of the pages of a comic book. In the film, it is a big blue penis flashing around on giant screen. I wouldn't have faulted them if they had felt like changing that bit. I am still grateful they put pants on the Spartans in the film adaption of 300 though.

lordjedi said:

Jay said:

 

We're nerds, dude. We get this stuff. We need this stuff. They don't.

Actually, I've talked to a couple of non nerds (I actually consider myself a Dork, nerds have zero social skills, I at least have some) that didn't know they could rip DVDs and asked how to do it.  After telling them about DVD Shrink, they started ripping all kinds.

I know this is an old post, but it was at the very top of the screen, and I had never read it before. Just made me laugh, lj prefering to be considered a "dork" as opposed to a "nerd", because where I come from, "dork" means "penis" and has little to do with nerdiness.